PCGS "rattlers", PCI photo holders, 1st generation NGC, etc

MICHAELDIXON · March 22, 2005 2:34AM

There isn't a day goes by that I'm not contacted by somebody wanting to sell coins that are in the old PCGS "rattler" holder, the first PCI photo holder or a 1st generation (white) NGC holder. Everytime I am told how they are vastly undergraded and how an MS62 Morgan will now grade a minimum MS65! Unfortunately, not all these holders have undergraded coins in them. In fact, very few have coins that are undergraded. Every now and then, you'll find one in an old holder that is undergraded or might be a liner, but it isn't often. I would venture to say, from what I've seen and been offered, 1-2% might be undergraded or liners. To me, this seems consistent with what is being graded now.
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(Please) When you buy a coin, buy The Coin! Look at the coin objectively and don't look at it with dollar signs in your eyes. Don't spend 2-3 times what the coin is worth because it is in an old holder, as you will probably be disappointed.
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What do you think?

RKKay · March 22, 2005 2:40AM

I'm not Andy, Mark or Julian, but I agree.

Prethen · March 22, 2005 2:52AM

I have to admit no-brainer on this one. Buy the coin not the holder, unless of course it's in an NTC holder; I pay many multiples of whatever they say!

BigMoose · March 22, 2005 2:58AM

I think the key with coins in first generation PCGS holders or early NGC holders is finding them Before they have being bought and sold between scores of dealers. Anytime nice early holdered coins appear, they are either picked up immediately as long term holds by smart collectors or cracked out by collectors or dealers for upgrades. Often, the leftovers are just plain accurately graded or even low end coins or mistakes. You need to be in the right place at the right time or have really good connections to be able to get an early shot at fresh early holdered coins just coming out of collections or accumulations. TomT.

Steve27 · March 22, 2005 2:58AM

You mean this one isn't a 65?

Julian · March 22, 2005 3:09AM

There are no formulas. Consequently, fully examine the coin, before making any decision about purchasing a coin.

DO NOT depend on any coin being under-graded because it is in a first generation holder and conversely, DO NOT depend on any coin being over-graded because it is in a less recognized holder.

LOOK at the coin!!!!!

Millertime · March 22, 2005 3:13AM

<< <i>Buy the coin not the holder, unless of course it's in an NTC holder; I pay many multiples of whatever they say! >>

You could do what I did with my NTC slab, pay 1/5 of what it could be worth and 2x what it's really worth.

Millertime

K6AZ · March 22, 2005 3:16AM

It's been 16 years since PCGS last used the rattle holder. There was a time when you could regulary find good upgrade candidates in these holders. These days, most of what I find in these holders are the coins that would not upgrade, and that's why they are still in the holders.

I agree, buy the coin. Just because a coin is in an old holder doesn't mean you price it at a higher grade.

kryptonitecomics · March 22, 2005 3:25AM

A few months back I bought an 1880-S Morgan in a PCI Photo holder.....for a very good price. This was an Ebay deal and the coin looked great and accurately graded at an MS66....it recently crossed into an PCGS MS66 holder.

This kinda talks to you point about buying the coin and not the holder as when I went to the fun show I offered the coin to probably 25 dealers and from across the table they all declined to purchase the coin because of the holder. Understanding that dealers want coins they can flip right away vs sending the coin to say PCGS or NGC...this isn't much of a shocker, but.....none of them looked at the coin?

Julian · March 22, 2005 3:41AM

I do not know if I was one of the dealers that did not look at the coin.

If so, it certainly was not because of the holder that it was in. It may have been because it was an 80-s $. Normally, on coins like those, I do not look at them, unless someone specifically points it out to me.

If you ever have really exceptional coins in less recognized services' holders, please give me the opportunity to examine them.

Holders do not mean very much to me.

TonedPeaceNut · March 22, 2005 3:50AM

I'm interested in the PCGS rattler slabs. Yes, I am buying the holder and not the coin. I know, I know the mantra, but this is for a different purpose. I'm NOT looking for upgrade candidates, but if you have MS60-62 common date Morgans, Peace, Franklins, JFKs, WLHs in the rattlers in lower MS grade, at a reasonable price -- please PM with what you have and a price.

TPN

kryptonitecomics · March 22, 2005 3:54AM

<< <i>I do not know if I was one of the dealers that did not look at the coin.

If so, it certainly was not because of the holder that it was in. It may have been because it was an 80-s $. Normally, on coins like those, I do not look at them, unless someone specifically points it out to me.

If you ever have really exceptional coins in less recognized services' holders, please give me the opportunity to examine them.

Holders do not mean very much to me. >>

I don't believe you were one of them....even if by some chance you were.....I wasn't offended by anyone....well maybe one person who told me the coin was worth $100 bucks.....that ticked me off a bit, but....hey it's up to me to walk away, which is what I did

I hear what you are saying about the common dates etc.......it was just that some didn't even look at the date etc

Myqqy · March 22, 2005 4:09AM

I agree with your point- I think the old pcgs holders have been especially hyped as always being upgrade material. But I have a special fondness for the old photo-certified holders, since they are so bulky and old school......

MrEureka · March 22, 2005 5:02AM

I'm not Andy, Mark or Julian, but I agree.

I'm not Rick, Mark or Julian, but I also agree. Almost.

Yes, above all, you should look at the coin. But grading standards have loosened, so a batch of old slabs that has not been picked over WILL tend to have more upgrades than a similar batch of new slabs. On the other hand, new slabs may not yet have been picked over for crackout potential. So the overall percentage of crackouts in old slabs may not be much different than the percentage in new slabs.

Of couse, since we buy individual coins and not the averages, it barely pays to consider the age of the holder.

BigGreek · March 22, 2005 5:06AM

I think the only stuff left in these old holders is probably overgraded
at this point. Anything with a shot has been resubmitted and recent
tightening of standard means no more upgrades.

dwssws · March 22, 2005 5:26AM

I wouldn't say that all the old holders hold overgraded coins because all the good ones have been upgraded. I have two an 1886-s pcgs 65 OGH (also is vam 2) that is just pq for the grade and a ngc (no line fatty) 67 1898 o That Laura told me I could sell for very good money it is that clean. I just choose to leave them as they are. Except maybe for the 86 s when pcgs starts attributing vams.

coinbuf · March 22, 2005 6:12AM

I agree with your statement to a degree. I love the old rattler holders, not for upgrade potential but because the coins in them are not going to change overnight. Those coins have been in there for many years and therefore hold no surprises. To me that is worth a small premium and I buy any older holder that my budget can afford.

Chris

Dave99B · March 22, 2005 6:24AM

I love the old rattler holders, not for upgrade potential but because the coins in them are not going to change overnight

Bingo, my thoughts exactly....I really love nice red/brown MS Large Cents in rattlers....I must own them all.....at least you know they have been out of the "improvers" hands for 15 years.

Dave

kieferscoins · March 22, 2005 6:25AM

<< <i> There isn't a day goes by that I'm not contacted by somebody wanting to sell coins that are in the old PCGS "rattler" holder, the first PCI photo holder or a 1st generation NGC holder. >>

If you are being offered first generation NGC slabs (black slabs) @ MS-65 prices (even if the coin is a MS-62 Morgan) you better buy it!

Cameron Kiefer

Ryana · March 22, 2005 6:37AM

I haven't seen many black NGC slabs. I guess that's why. A lot of them probably don't exist any more.

MICHAELDIXON · March 22, 2005 6:38AM

1st generation white NGC holders.

coinguy1 · March 22, 2005 8:19AM

If I were to be offered a randomly selected group of older holder coins sight-unseen, I'd anticipate three things in particular:

1) Percentage-wise, more of the coins would have PVC on them than coins found in newer holders.
2) Some of the coins would be under-graded.
3) Some of the coins would be over-graded.

And, if any of the coins happened to be copper, I'd look for "RB" coins in "RD" holders and "BN" coins in "RB" holders. I'd also expect to see carbon spots, carbon flecks/specks and staining which might not have been present (at least to the extent it is now) when the coins were encapsulated.

Don't let your guard down and lose your objectivity when examining ANY coin in (or out of) ANY holder, regardless of the source.

morgannut2 · March 22, 2005 8:35AM

Coinguy1 makes a very good point about watching out for MUCH more PVC and carbon spots on coins in old holders!

The idea that only 1-2% of the fresh material in gen 1 holders offered at auction has potential for upgrade is absurd!! A very significant pecentage of coins have both upgrade and downgrade potential. Even if you don't see it, be assured someone will--I'm about $3000 poorer for not seeing a coin with a shot upgrade this year. As for my PCGS MS-63 1882S Morgan rainbow "rattler" that's a lock 65/66, I like it that way--and will sell it someday that way.

majorbigtime · March 22, 2005 11:42AM

I have many coins in early slabs, off the market for well over a decade.

Q David Bowers told me they are strong candidates for upgrades, but I plan to leave 'em as-is.

MORGANHUNTER2 · March 22, 2005 11:54AM

Awhile ago I bought a 81-s in a ogh 2nd gen holder that is a 66 by the label- I had pics posted back awhile ago- but ?? disappeared, I have for just curiousty sake covered the grade and let many folks look at it- dealers have given it a slide to a 64-65, a few collectors have said without doubt 66 solid maybe a chance for upgrade- scary part is- I want to resubmit it for upgrade to the original grader- at PCGS- what would you all do in a situation like this? Price is high in the jump- but after spending 300 for it- I like the idea of it being worth a grand+.

Help what should I do??

coinguy1 · March 22, 2005 12:09PM

MORGANHUNTER2, show the coin (in person, not through images) to one or two people who really know their stuff and resubmit it or not, based upon their assessments.

bgrice · March 22, 2005 12:11PM

Were the *rattlers* sealed/encapsulated the way they are today? Most of what I see on the market these days are toned or tarnished looking. Maybe it's as stated above that these coins just end up getting passed back and forth as they are kind of the *black sheep* of the rattlers that no one wants to attempt to upgrade.

mr3holesinone · March 22, 2005 12:58PM

I agree with Mr. Dixon's opening statement. There is one angle where I could have an exception and I base it on my personal collection of about 45 to 50 rattlers and 1st generation NGC slabbed coins.

My guess is that you only see a 1 or 2% chance for upgrade material because these are coins that get traded back and forth a lot. You get shopped to see if you'll bite, when you don't it's on to the next guy. Were you to see some of my coins or those of other collectors who personally selected their coins I think you would see opportunities approaching 10% or more for upgrades. I think (hope?) this would apply a lot more when you have a nice group of coins that have been off the market for a period of time versus a hand full of hopefuls plucked from the bourse.

mozin · March 22, 2005 1:42PM

I don't like scratched holders so I sent in a large number of PCGS/NGC coins for reholder. The early PCGS rattlers to me are a poor design and the early NGC holders don't fit the storage boxes well. I could care less if my holdered coins might upgrade.

roadrunner · March 22, 2005 2:12PM

You regularly see shot upgrade rattlers show up on ebay and even in major auctions. As others have said, a fresh deal of older slabs not picked through in 10 years WILL produce results. I prefer gold coins because they tend not to turn and the services were very consistent then. Almost never do I see a first gen PCGS slab generic gold coin in MS grades that is overgraded. Typically they are PQ for the grade. I buy first gen saints every few weeks or so and pull out the nicer pieces to hold back. I still run across pieces that 1 to 1-1/2 points undergraded. There are still plenty of old slabs sitting out there untouched from the late 1980's market.

I'm glad that most people figure everything out there has been picked through. That's less competition for everyone else.

roadrunn

PCGS "rattlers", PCI photo holders, 1st generation NGC, etc

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PCGS &quot;rattlers&quot;, PCI photo holders, 1st generation NGC, etc

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PCGS "rattlers", PCI photo holders, 1st generation NGC, etc