A blatant example of an artificially frosted cameo proof!

Russ · February 6, 2005 9:03AM

And, it's in a PCGS holder.

Auction link.

Shame on Teletrade for running with it.

Russ, NCNE

F117ASR · February 6, 2005 9:05AM

How do you artificially frost a proof?

tincup · February 6, 2005 9:11AM

That is an ugly looking coin. But how can you tell it is artificially frosted? What is the give-a-way... and how do you think it was done. (Not disagreeing with you.... this is an area I have no knowledge of).

Elcontador · February 6, 2005 9:12AM

Russ, I'm disappointed in you. Not only do you go onto the Teletrade website, but you actually admit it. I was there ONCE; after about 5 minutes of looking at coin offerings, I almost needed a barf-bag. Haven't been back since. I know **** when I see it.

From what I saw, everey coin offered on Teletrade was a problem coin. No thank you.

Russellp23 · February 6, 2005 9:13AM

You don't actually think Russ will answer a pertinent question that may teach someone else something, do you?

Russ · February 6, 2005 9:14AM

<< But how can you tell it is artificially frosted? What is the give-a-way... >>

See how milky blue the devices are in some areas? And the dramatic shift between that milky blue and the white in other areas? This is a dead giveaway for deteriorating artificial frost.

Russ, NCNE

lordmarcovan · February 6, 2005 9:17AM

That's bad. Bad, bad, bad. You're right. Looks pretty blatant to me.

Russ · February 6, 2005 9:18AM

PS: The other tell is the way it splashes over in to the fields.

Russ, NCNE

LeeG · February 6, 2005 9:20AM

Russ are these that hard to catch immediately after frosting? Is that why PCGS missed it? Thanks, Lee

XpipedreamR · February 6, 2005 9:22AM

Russ · February 6, 2005 9:23AM

<< Russ are these that hard to catch immediately after frosting? Is that why PCGS missed it? >>

I've never seen a freshly done one, so I don't know. I have to assume they are difficult to detect, though, because I've encountered several in PCGS holders like the one in this auction.

Russ, NCNE

Ryana · February 6, 2005 9:25AM

Looks like they slapped some car polish on it.

tincup · February 6, 2005 9:28AM

Thanks Russ. Yeh, I see what you mean on the broken/patches patterns. And the 'haze' around the devices looks like it just floated off into the fields.

XpipedreamR · February 6, 2005 9:29AM

Russ: Is the spread of "frost" onto the fields something that occurs over time, or would this have been evident at the time of grading?

Russ · February 6, 2005 9:32AM

<< Russ: Is the spread of "frost" onto the fields something that occurs over time, or would this have been evident at the time of grading? >>

Again, since I haven't seen a fresh one, I have to assume that it does spread as the substance used breaks down. If it were splashed over when first graded I have to think it would be detected and bodybagged. Also, from what I understand, the majority of these came from the same source around the same period of time a few years ago - and PCGS knows who it is.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · February 6, 2005 9:36AM

Followup: I just checked the cert number for the fake frost PCGS Accented Hair I bought on Heritage in the fall of 2002. It is 21037534. The coin in this auction is 21034384, so they were graded during the same time period.

Russ, NCNE

Sequitur · February 6, 2005 9:59AM

Perhaps all the grade guarantee payouts from these bogus cameo/deep cameo coins has resulted in the tightening of awarding the cam/dcam designation.

kieferscoins · February 6, 2005 11:09AM

TTT. Good info here

Cameron Kiefer

keets · February 6, 2005 11:38AM

that's quite an indictment for a coin through a picture. it doesn't look much different than some severely hazed Brown Box Ikes i've seen or some other Proofs which suffered some PVC damage which initially caused a white milky appearance to form over the coin's surface. i would expect that the effort wasted to artificially frost a coin would be directed at a more profitable issue, but then if this is an AF coin maybe it was an early attempt or a date chosen due to it's abundance, kinda like all the monster 1881-S Morgans we see.

al h.

kieferscoins · February 6, 2005 11:52AM

You do not see hazed proof Franklins like this. The frosting is melting off on the bell and it totally AF. I agree with Russ.

Cameron Kiefer

keets · February 6, 2005 11:55AM

thanks for telling me what i see out-and-about, thanks for denying me my opinion. now, go pull your head outa your ass and read the last line of my post as you prgressively dig the hole you insist on standing in.

al h.

kieferscoins · February 6, 2005 12:02PM

Ok. I can make you some like this? wanna buy them?

Cameron Kiefer

oreville · February 6, 2005 12:10PM

I always thought that the frosting "appearing in the fields" in pictures like this was the result of a optical illusion caused by the reflection of the coin's mirror surfaces back at the camera?

Russ: I am not sure I see "milky blue" surfaces in the devices. It doesn't even seem like a full Cam to me. Am I looking at it incorrectly?

Sequitur · February 6, 2005 12:45PM

now, go pull your head outa your ass and read the last line of my post as you prgressively dig the hole you insist on standing in.

Sounds like someone had money on Philadelphia.

keets · February 6, 2005 12:48PM

Myqqy · February 6, 2005 2:10PM

That franklin looks 100% non-legit to me, and I would think that a 59 would be a perfect candidate for artificial frosting due to the huge premiums on 59 cams.....

coolkarma · February 6, 2005 2:12PM

Most of my comments on "artificially frosted cameo proofs" can be found there. One additional comment is that all of the ones I've seen and/or owned (seven total) have been in the blue with bar code on the reverse holders, like the current coin.

I tend to agree with Russ that the Teletrade coin is artificially enhanced. Likely they were trying to create a "dcam" which is a very expensive coin, e.g., the PCGS price guide says $5k. I say "tend to agree" because the holder is very scuffed up which makes it harder to tell. However, the two-toned color of the frost and the haze in the fields near the devices, plus the comparatively light frost on the letters don't bode well for it being natural.

solid · February 6, 2005 2:46PM

Cameron, that's the first time I've noticed anyone using "AF" for artificially frosted,
but I think "ARF" works better in this case

Ken

TonedPeaceNut · February 6, 2005 5:20PM

Is this really a surprise to everyone????

It is so obvious and once you know how its done, it almost seems too easy to get by top notch graders.

Without a doubt Russ is right on with this one. But I wouldn't call it artifical frost. Though that is the effect.

TPN

Outhaul · February 6, 2005 7:14PM

<< but I think "ARF" works better in this case >>

Or, perhaps "BARF"...Blatantly ARtificially Frosted...

ibzman350 · February 6, 2005 8:59PM

Yea!! What Elcontador said.

Teletrade-

-Smeletrade, I wouldn't giv'em the timaday or the sweat off my ba.............., well, you get the idea. I've dealt with them twice now, the first and the last time. They stuck it to me good, didn't even kiss me when they were done.

That is one ugly coin, thanx Russ for explaining how it may have turned that ugly.

Herb

SanctionII · February 7, 2005 2:16AM

If:

A. the source of the artificially frosted PCGS holdered coins is one person/business;

B. PCGS knows who the coin doctor is;

C. the number of these coins is large with high values
(either the prices the current owner paid to acquire these
coins or the current market value [what does the PCGS
guarantee cover, the purchase price paid by the buyer or
the current fair market value?]); and

D. the coin doctor has substantial assets from which any
damages suffered by PCGS can be recovered and/or is
someone who relishes participating in litigation,

there could be a very interesting civil lawsuit in the works. Further, to the extent that District Attorney in the applicable jurisdiction would have an interest in looking at the matter, criminal charges could also be filed.

Coinhusker1 · February 7, 2005 2:25AM

<< Shame on Teletrade for running with it.

Russ, NCNE >>

You are assumling Teletrade actually looks at the coins it auctions. If they let you call a turd-brown toned coin "rainbow" it would seem they don't care at all what the coin looks like, as long as it is in "Big 4" plastic!

Bochiman · February 7, 2005 2:40AM

Ok, thoughts on this.
If they are all coming from the same time period and if PCGS does know who (and then, by extension, who submitted) enhanced these coins, then why not put a list of CAM/DCAM coin #s as an alert and have them sent back to PCGS to look at?

I would do it as PCGS because of the grade guarantee....
1) It's the right thing to do
2) Find them, get them off the market
3) If sent in and it is a "good" coin, send it back and the owner will be very happy
4) If there is a payout under the grade guarantee, I would rather pay it today than pay it as the market continues upward

Now, why doesn't PCGS do that?
1) Don't ask, don't tell (why mention it to people? No cost to PCGS until it is sent in)
2) Too much work. PCGS already can't handle what it has to do.
3) Why be proactive?

BigE · February 7, 2005 3:10AM

The auction reads "The encapsulation is scuffed in the focal areas. "-------

-------------BigE

GaCoinGuy · February 7, 2005 8:57AM

What do you use to frost a coin like that?

tsacch · March 14, 2005 10:10AM

Frosting

Myqqy · March 14, 2005 10:22AM

It is so obvious and once you know how its done, it almost seems too easy to get by top notch graders.
Without a doubt Russ is right on with this one. But I wouldn't call it artifical frost. Though that is the effect.

These comments are too cryptic- let's hear some details......

etexmike · March 14, 2005 10:29AM

A very informative thread.

I did not know that you could artificially frost a coin.

Gathered a little more info a few posts back.

I have collected coins for years and am always amazed at how little I actually know. Keep it coming guys.

-----------

etexmike

nwcs · March 14, 2005 10:35AM

I wouldn't be surprised to see PCGS buy this one.

100proof1957 · March 14, 2005 10:57AM

Im thinkin Russ is correct !

TonedPeaceNut · March 14, 2005 11:27AM

<< These comments are too cryptic- let's hear some details...... >>

Sorry, no can do. As I get more into the chemistry of coins, toning, frosting ect., you start to realize the ease at which much can be accomplished with little effort or know how.

I was able to discuss toning with a chemist and he is in the process of trying to reproduce some of the more common colors & toning patterns that we see on coins. I believe that in order to really tell the difference between AT/NT not only to do have to see 1000s of toned coins, you better also know how it can be done artificially so you can easily spot the differences.

As for the frosting, its easy, I've done it and I'm not giving away the secrets. I wouldn't want to give knowledge such as that to others that might use it for less moral or scrupulous uses.

TPN

gamer1958 · March 14, 2005 5:17PM

All of my Franklin proofs are in NGC holders; but from what I am reading, this appeared to have affected only PCGS graded coins? Why or why not? Guess I won't be buying anymore raw Franklins for a while--I wouldn't have seen the difference, and I didn't know this could be done. Thanks for the education, Russ.

sumnom · March 14, 2005 6:02PM

This is like frosting on a cake.

islandcoins · March 14, 2005 7:33PM

<< How do you artificially frost a proof? >>

One of the most common methods is the application of automobile body filler on the devices.

Steve27 · March 14, 2005 8:48PM

The real question is, why doesn't PCGS have a link on this site for reporting possibly altered coins in their slabs?

A blatant example of an artificially frosted cameo proof!

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