How to discern a fake $2.5 Indian?

gyocomgd · February 1, 2005 12:13PM

I'm hearing much to much about the commonality of counterfeit $2.5 Indians. Also that a lot of the fakes are difficult to detect. Does anyone have any insight into what the giveaways might be? Do most of them weigh out all right--are they in fact golf? Has anything been published on this topic? I'm gobsmacked by these, have collected several, and would rather be hurt early than late.

ibzman350 · February 1, 2005 8:20PM

Sorry can't be of any help with the Indians but.............................................

..........................

to the board.

Herb

darktone · February 1, 2005 8:58PM

The good ones are really tricky to identify! The weight is usually with-in tolerance which means they are still worth the gold value. They are usually mint state. If you don't know for sure it's real and you don't know the seller I would not spend over $200 on a raw one. The "look" of the coin is the biggest factor I think in determining if it's real or not- the color,texture, detail. I am no expert on these but rather a collector that has come upon a few fakes over the years. mike

sinin1 · February 2, 2005 12:33AM

color is a easy detection if you know the look -

bad ones are usually brighter - do not have the copper or mixed as well

if you can go to a big show, ANACS will provide free opinions on coins - if they are there

Merc · February 2, 2005 1:16AM

Be careful here.There are so many fake $2.5 Indians. I was at a seminar at the FUN show by Randy of ANACS. He said he saw a complete collection of Unc $2.5 Indians someone brought them for an opinion. They were all fake! Even the common dates ones were fake!

I did get to see some counterfeit ones. At first glance, they look real. The size, weight, and gold content were correct. The gold was a bit too new looking (bright and yellow). There is often a bit of rub (roll friction) of the real ones. The fakes also have some tiny tooling marks or other odd raised lines. Overall, they are dangerous counterfeits.

relayer · February 2, 2005 3:08AM

I've found the easiest way to discern a fake $2.5 Indian is to see the Not Genuine sticker on bodybag when it comes back from PCGS.

BillJones · February 2, 2005 6:18AM

One place to check is in the area of the Indian's neck that is in the square box that is drawn in this picture. If there are "lumps, bumps or tool marks" in that area, the coin is BAD. It's one of the highest spots on the coin die (or counterfieter's mold), and it's often a place where the counterfeiter can't cover his sins well.

BTW this is the obverse of a genuine 1911-D $2.50 gold piece.

Jamericon · February 2, 2005 6:45AM

Bill is quite correct

I would know- my grandfather's 1914 came back bb'd by NGC for that same reason. Sent to the ANA for authenticity and it came back counterfiet with tooling marks in the same area and above the date.

Longacre · February 2, 2005 7:21AM

Bill:

Just out of curiosity, why does the high point of the coin normally reveal the signs of counterfeiting? Would the lower parts show it as well? Thanks.

KurtHorn · February 2, 2005 7:23AM

In general,... if it looks great and isn't in a slab... its probably fake.

roadrunner · February 2, 2005 8:27AM

Unless you are a dealer buying for stock all the time you are more than safe buying PCGS, NGC, and ANACs gold. There is no reason not to buy slabbed gold in any grade you desire as the mark up is negligible. If you plan on buying raw collections, you'll need more skill.

roadrunner

gyocomgd · February 2, 2005 3:28PM

The education is something, fellows, thanks very much. BillJones outlining a square on the photo for newbie me...I'm touched.
No more raw Indians on ebay. I suspect I've fared only OK; only time and returns from PCGS will tell. In no walk of life I've encountered so far have I seen such widespread chicanery. It appears a savage hobby, but I love it so.
Two more questions before sleepy time: (1) How on earth does PCGS in their price guide place values in the thousands on certain MS70 Silver Eagle? And (2) BillJones, can I have that Indian?

BillJones · February 2, 2005 10:37PM

<< <i>Bill:

Just out of curiosity, why does the high point of the coin normally reveal the signs of counterfeiting? Would the lower parts show it as well? Thanks. >>

Most "manufactured" (as opposed to genuine coins that have been altered) counterfeit coins are made by producing a mold or some sort of an impression from a real coin. The deeper you get into the design, the harder it is to duplicate the devices. Therefore it is hard to get it right in that area of the Indian's neck because it's the deepest part of the design. There will almost always be imperfections there, and if the counterfeiter tries to remove them, there will be tell-tale tool marks there instead.

<< <i>Two more questions before sleepy time: (1) How on earth does PCGS in their price guide place values in the thousands on certain MS70 Silver Eagle? And (2) BillJones, can I have that Indian? >>

(1) The PCGS price guide (like all price guides) is a guide not a statement of absolute fact. Many collectors feel that the amounts that are provided there are on the high side. Some would say that those high numbers are somewhat self-serving.

(2) That 1911-D Indian is still raw, and it's in a complete set that I put together in the 1980s. I would grade it an AU-55, but the services might have other ideas. At any rate the coin is real because it has all of the classic earmarks of the 1911-D issue.

gyocomgd · February 3, 2005 5:19AM

Golly, Bill, without seeing the reverse it looks better than 55. Tiny detail in the headband....pretty clean cheek...full strike; deep detail in the feathers. I'll give you fairly serious hariline at upper left, but what else am I missing?

Hoot · February 3, 2005 5:41AM

Excellent thread. Several people have hit the nail on the head by saying the color is off, the "look" isn't right, and there may be tool marks, especially on the Indian's neck. These are very deceptive.

Here is an example of a 1912 Indian $2.5 that I purchased raw and got taken! (Lesson learned.) Note also the weak rims.

Hoot

Hoot · February 3, 2005 5:45AM

I'll try again with the attachments:

meos1 · February 3, 2005 7:14AM

Bill,

Isn't there a luster break in the arrow heads of the real coins? Seems this was posted here somewhere before.

Dan

meos1 · August 2, 2007 12:45AM

Bump to see if Bill will answer my question from two years ago.

Dan

lkrarecoins · August 2, 2007 12:49AM

great educational post...thanks all

AUandAG · August 2, 2007 12:57AM

Here's a book that gets into it really well. Well, here's a link to Amazon.com to buy the book.
bob
Linky

STONE · August 2, 2007 1:10AM

There is actually a much newer book on detecting counterfeit gold coins. I found it also on Amazon.com, but don't have the time to searchc for it right now. It takes a little while to find as I recall.

DUIGUY · August 2, 2007 1:14AM

Interesting thread. My Grandmother on my Fathers side left my two sisters and I some $2.5 Indians when she passed. My parents had them placed in necklaces for my sisters and a ring (when gold was $800 per ounce) for mine. I just checked and it is authentic 1926.

PerryHall · August 2, 2007 1:19AM

The back of the Indian's neck is the deepest part of the coin. When the counterfeiter casts a fake die using a real coin, this part of the coin will frequently have trapped air bubbles which will show up on the false die as raised pimples. The counterfeiter will then have to tool the raised pimples off the die. By removing one set of indicators of a fake coin (the pimples), he is inadvertantly creating another set of indicators (tool marks-usually in the form of raised parallel lines) on his product. In addition to the other indicators mentioned by others, fake Indian $2 1/2 and $5 gold coins usually have the legends and stars too close to the edge of the coin or even going slightly off the edge of the coin.

thebeav · August 2, 2007 1:52AM

I had a dealer with a B&M shop here knowingly selling fakes in the mid 1970's. I went in the shop and he had 2 in the showcase. I asked him, "How much?". He tells me and I realize that his price is 20.00 too cheap. I buy both of them and sell them to another local shop, making my 20.00 per coin. I go back to B&M shop number 1 a week later. He has 2 more in the case. I ask him again, "How much?". I pay the same price as before and go and sell them to dealer number 2.
Meanwhile, the lab where I was working had , of course, all kinds of equiptment around. Microscopes with Polaroid cameras attached, for one thing. I had, just by chance, photographed these coins before selling them. Two of them just happen to be the same date. I compared the pictures one afternoon and........wait a minute....."These coins are IDENTICAL !!".
I fly over to dealer number 1 and show him the pictures. He gets all defensive and pulls 2 more two-and-a-halfs out of the case and puts them into the vault. Meanwhile, I'm livid......I go back to shop number 2, with my tail between my legs, ready to take my lumps. I confess that the coins have been fake. Dealer number 2 admits selling them already to non-regulars. He admits he may never see these people again and tells me not to worry about it. Whew......
These things can certainly be deceiving as I learned first hand.

How to discern a fake $2.5 Indian?

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