PCGS Green Blue Controversy

KurtHorn · December 16, 2004 1:26AM

I read with interest a recent thread that talked about a person who sent his green slabs in for an upgrade and they were cracked out and put in Blue holders with the same grade instead of his minimum grade. A few people mentioned that David Hall states that they crack all coins that are submitted and that was backed up by someone named Carol who it seems works/worked at PCGS. Forgive me if I'm not recanting the thread absolutely perfectly.

I wanted to point out that the printed contractual terms on PCGS's Submission forms state the following: "4.) ...Minimum Grade: Please use this column only if you do not want your coin encapsulated unless it meets this minimum grade or higher. Note: you will be charged the full grading fee even if your coin is not encapsulated." This language in my opinion makes a contract with me that they will NOT break them out unless they exceed my required minimum. This is also a standard industry practice at the other grading services.

I have two coins in this same situation. I complained because I had paid quite a premium for these coins based on my grading of the coins as being higher than is stated in the holder, AND because they were in old green and clacker slabs that I have experienced getting stronger bids when I sell them on EBay. I was told to submit them for Presidential review and I have been waiting since 11/11 for a response. I hope they will do something for me as I stand to lose hundreds of dollars of my investment in these coins.

nwcs · December 16, 2004 1:29AM

The terms you are specifying refer to crossover service. Regrade service is different and not covered under the same terms. Also, when you play the game hoping for an upgrade, sometimes you get burned. I have before. Just because a coin is in an old holder doesn't make it undergraded.

Also, NGC will change the holder if you do a regrade with them. Crossovers are a different story, though.

kieferscoins · December 16, 2004 1:31AM

NWCS is right. David Hall said that in reply to a specific question and did not say they crack "all slabs".

Call customer service @ PCGS and they can explain it and take care of your problem.

Cameron Kiefer

mgoodm3 · December 16, 2004 1:33AM

Minimum grade is for submitting raw coins and crossovers. they won't encapsulate (or crack out a crossover) if they don't meet your minimum. Coins are graded raw (except for crossovers). They will crack out a regrade to grade it. Can't put it back into the old holder.

dbldie55 · December 16, 2004 1:35AM

Re-grades are all cracked out and will not come back graded lower (unless a check comes with it). Cannot see where PCGS did anything wrong in this case. I am sure the presidential review will agree with this.

KurtHorn · December 16, 2004 1:35AM

In Paragraph 4 on my submission it doesn't say anything about whether that is for crossover or not. It is a paragraph of instructions for each column on the submission form. Since the same submission form is used for crossovers or re-grades and their is nothing on the entire form that differentiates the terms for either. I believe it applies.

I'm just very frustrated at the potential loss. If these really are PCGS policies how come they don't say it on the form? It cost me a couple hundred dollars easily if the Presidential review doesn't change the outcome for me.

Oh well...

JrGMan2004 · December 16, 2004 1:36AM

On an upgrade or regrade of a PCGS coin, they crack it out, so as to give the graders a better look... if they think it would downgrade, they properly reimburse you under the terms of their guarantee... and if the coin comes back the same grade, it's still in a PCGS holder... the only thing you've lost is that green label... and perhaps a few dollars more premium that someone might conceivably pay for an OGH over a new blue holder...

kieferscoins · December 16, 2004 1:37AM

<< <i> If these really are PCGS policies how come they don't say it on the form? >>

Because you would be handed a book with every possible policy and no one would read it. Call Customer service and see what the status of your Presidential Review is instead of saying oh well. Invesments are not the best, especially if you are new. Welcome to the forum

Cameron Kiefer

Regulated · December 16, 2004 1:39AM

PCGS considers the grade on the submitted slab as the minimum grade. As you point out, the contract states, "Minimum Grade: Please use this column only if you do not want your coin encapsulated unless it meets this minimum grade." A strict interpretation of that would require PCGS to send back your coin unholdered if your minimum grade is greater than the grade on the slab and the grade that PCGS decided to assign to it. Obviously, you wouldn't want that to happen.

KurtHorn · December 16, 2004 1:43AM

Thanks Cameron for your view. I haven't given up hope on my review, anything would help of course. I'm not new to the game just to PCGS. Miles Standish at ANA Summer Seminar this year got me to start using PCGS. P.S. My wife's picture is a half page on page 47 of the December 2004 Numismatist. I'm standing next to her in a group photo on Page 46, you might remember me from last summer as we did meet once.

kieferscoins · December 16, 2004 1:51AM

Cool

Let us know how the Presidential review goes

Cameron Kiefer

DeepCoin · December 16, 2004 4:41AM

But the coin, not the slab. Old Green Holders and Rattlers have no intrinsic value. Yes, there were grading differences of a small nature but there is no guaranteed upgrade. I would argue that most of the undergraded coins in these holders have been looked at by now and the upgrade possibilities are less than you might think.

PCGS only "owes" you their opinion on the coin in exchange for you fees.

morgannut2 · December 16, 2004 5:49AM

I want to thank those people who have cleared up the PCGS policy on coins they grade. It was not the least bit obvious to me that PCGS pre-graded coins would always be cracked out, and non PCGS coins left in their holders!! This misconception was based on the answers by David Hall on cross-overs, as well as the ambiguous PCGS form. While I fully understand that PCGS sees their holder as an opinion, the fact of life is that on a close "liner" type coins, that coin in an old PCGS holder brings a market premium, especially at Heritage internet auctions. Why? Well for one thing you know it hasn't been "tried" by the crackout guys a number of times before (although it's a top PQ coin), and for a another reason; a toned coin isn't going to suddenly darken MORE than it currently is after you buy it. In other words, the holder and it's age can tell me more than just the PCGS opinion--- although PCGS thinks otherwise. I suppose one positive thing is that by cracking out PCGS holders I do know for sure that the coin hasn't been looked at before by PCGS and returned, plus an out of holder review does assess all three sides of a coin.

CardsFan · December 16, 2004 6:01AM

<< <i>Old Green Holders and Rattlers have no intrinsic value. >>

I don't completely agree with this. I prefer my coins in the older holders because I think they look better. I seek out the older holders and will pay more for them. Just like those that collect sample slabs some people like to collect coins in older holders.

CarlWohlforth · December 16, 2004 6:52AM

I don't know many cases where a green slab is worth more than a blue slab.

There are many folks who buy coins they think will upgrade based on their grading skills. Normally these people crack the coin out of the holder and send them in raw. They take the risk the coin will be down graded or not even graded at all.

It seems in this case you feel you will lose money if PCGS ends up saying they graded the coin correctly in the first place. That is the chance one takes when they pay up for a coin thinking it will upgrade.

There are examples of green holder coins that bring more then blue holdered coins. There are also examples the other way around. It depends on the coin, not the holder.

Personally I think it is great PCGS cracks the coins out when they are sent in for a re-grade. They get to look at the coin in hand rather than through a plastic holder. They are putting the coin on an equal basis with other raw coins. They are truly giving a new opinion. They will pay up if the coin down grades. I think this is good.

CarlWohlforth · December 16, 2004 6:53AM

OK, old slabs may be worth a small premium for the reasons CardsFan states. But they aren't worth hundreds more...

coynclecter · December 16, 2004 7:01AM

So you want to send the coins in for regrade in an old slab. If the coin doesn't meet the upgrade requirements you want it back in the old slab so you can resell it for a premium to someone who doesn't know you tried to upgrade it.

I'll bet you even want to put "SURE THING UPGRADE" and "UNDERGRADED" in the ebay add too. Don't forget to add the usual line about how you KNOW it would upgrade but don't want to take the time to send it in. Or you might try "I know nothing about coins, these are from an old family estate"

I'm sure you don't see an integrity issue with this.

Losing the premium is part of the cost of the crackout game. If you don't want to pay the price, don't play the game.

KurtHorn · December 16, 2004 7:08AM

Personally I will not pay any extra for an old holder unless I can see the coin and truly believe it is PQ for the grade. But, that ignores a reality that does exist. Put 2 MS 64 1941 D Walkers on Ebay. One in a blue, one in a green, what is the result?

Ebay as a market reacts to buyer demand, just do a search on ebay... PCGS Old Holder

You'll get results of 50-100 items at any given time. Watch them close. Unless the jump to the next grade is small, they always bring a premium.

I'm not saying it's right, or that these people know something we don't. I'm just saying it IS the reality of the market.

morgannut2 · December 16, 2004 7:14AM

I have well over 30 of my Morgans in old PCGS holders, and yes I've paid over a hundred more (not hundreds) to collect them that way----partly because I like older holders. Fact is, I've seen many more Morgans in old holders that I thought were overgraded or low-end, than nice PQ coins! They're hard to find PQ in the holders I perfer.

KurtHorn · December 16, 2004 7:23AM

Sorry, Coynclecter but I have never sent anything to PCGS before. So, I can't be accused of misleading someone about these coins. Any of the grading services are subjective. All of the graders that I've met that work for them tell you that first thing. But, if I truly believed the coin was undergraded and said that in an auction it's because I believe it to be true. Just because PCGS (this time) didn't upgrade it doesn't mean they or another service won't yet give it the next grade higher. That is the true nature of the crack out game. But the market value being higher is the same reason that the toy I bought for my nephew in Macy's was $89.99 while I saw the same thing at Bed Bath and Beyond for $69.99. Packaging, location and presentation sometimes affects prices. This is the reality of the capitalist system we live in.

When I go to sell a slab coin that I think is overgraded, I say so. It costs me money, but I can't live with myself if I don't.

If I believe the coin is undergraded I say that too. If it happens to be in an old holder all the better.

-Kurt-

KurtHorn · December 16, 2004 7:56AM

One last word from me and then I will slide back into message board lurking instead of posting. I never told you all the results of the other 2 coins I sent in for re-grade. 1941-D Walker old MS 63 holder came back a 64, I was hoping for a 5 but... 1942-D Walker in an old 64 holder came back a 65.

The coin that is killing me is a coin I see as a lock 65. It's a 1877 CC Seated Dime was in a clacker MS 64 holder. Absolutely flawless gorgeous coin with a nice hint of original toneing. It's graysheet is $390 in MS 64, but jumps to $875 in MS 65. I bought it at a show for $580. I was sure it would upgrade but thought if it didn't my downside was protected by its beauty and its old holder. Now, I'll be put in a position of having to crack it out of the PCGS holder and send it to one of the other big three. I don't like the wasted bucks is all.

Obviously I made a mistake sending it in for re-grading instead of sending it to another service for crossover. But I read every bit of material I could find and I read the contract carefully. I feel mislead. Sorry for starting this to-do over my loss, but I thought it was a good place to make others realize what PCGS does in re-grading since they don't say it on their submission forms.

-Kurt-

oreville · December 16, 2004 7:58AM

Red copper coins in old PCGS holders are definitely worth a significant premium over their newly slabbed blue tag counterparts. I have seen as much as 25% premium.

The red copper coin is seen as stable and has stood the test of time in an old holder.

This is critical for red copper coins. The fact that PCGS guarantees the red copper grade is irrelevant.

oreville · December 16, 2004 8:04AM

It would be an intelligent thing for PCGS to spell that out in their contract. It should not be so involved just a add a few words.

I remember having a dealer submitting some slabbed coins for me for regrading years ago for an upgrade. Since the coin did not upgrade, I distinctly remember getting my original slab back and still paid the PCGS fee for a regrade.

I wonder if long ago if PCGS did things a bit differently in this area as I remember this distinction.

coynclecter · December 16, 2004 8:22AM

<< <i>One last word from me and then I will slide back into message board lurking instead of posting. >>

That's unacceptabel. If everyone lurked, you would have no posts to read. Good, bad or indifferent, your input is valued.

I have submitted about 20 old holdered coins I have gotten off of EBAY. So far I have had some good upgrades
1909-S ms65RD cent to Ms66rd
1889 $3 gold, AU58 to MS62
1943S walker 65 to 66

Just to mention a few. I've also gotten some dogs I paid a premium for but didn't even send in. Some buyers would have returned them but like I said, its part of the price of the crackout game.

If the next grade up is a huge jump, I will often pay a premium, its a percentage game.

BTW, next time, instead of reading all the paper etc, just ask the board, these guys know everything!!

roadrunner · December 16, 2004 9:30AM

OK, old slabs may be worth a small premium for the reasons CardsFan states. But they aren't worth hundreds more...

In many cases they are worth not only hundreds but thousands more. And there are still plenty of old holdered coins out there that have not been through the mill. You find some on ebay every night too. In many cases the old holder and the coin in it are worth 2X what the grade says. In some series it could be 10X. On a $2,000 coin, you are talking thousands. There are tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands early slabs still hiding out there from the 1986-1992 market. It will be years before most are accounted for. On ebay, early holders almost always bring a significant premium, esp. in gold and type coins. It's a percentage thing too.
Unless obviously spotted or gross looking, they always bring more.
And don't crack them out unless you are willing to suffer the loss of the premium.

roadrunner

PCGS Green Blue Controversy

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