An open letter - Our view of the suit
K6AZ
Posts: 9,295 ✭
For those who have not received the July issue of the Numismatist, Barry Stuppler paid for a two page "open letter" to basically state our case, and also to drum up support for the ANA Legal Defense Fund. I'm posting this for the benefit of those who have not received their issue yet, or who are not members of the ANA. I will not get into a discussion of the elements of the suit. I also will not get into it with the forum attorneys, this article was approved by our attorneys.
Barry Stuppler's Open Letter in the July Numismatist
Barry Stuppler's Open Letter in the July Numismatist
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Comments
Very well written. I only hope that this doesn't turn into a media circus with the Hagers taking out their own 2 page spread.
Michael
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Russ, NCNE
I only hope that this doesn't turn into a media circus with the Hagers taking out their own 2 page spread.
Frattlaw, that would be priceless. Have you ever read their ads in Coin World? That use to be one of my favorite stops when reading CW. It was like CW had a comic strip page! Man, you would swear that a 7 year old wrote those ads. The grammar, the layout, the content.....EVERYTHING was low class.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
WE WISH YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY HOLIDAY
WE WANT TO THANK THE THOUSANDS OF CLIENTS
AND HUNDREDS OF COIN DEALERS WHO HAVE MADE
THIS THE BEST YEAR EVER FOR ACCUGRADE. ACG
GRADED OVER 100,000 COINS MOVED INTO OUR NEW
7,000 Sq. Ft. BUILDING SAVED OUR CLIENTS OVER
$2.5 MILLION AND RAISED $5,400 FOR THE A.N.A.
2002 GRADING SERVICE REGULATION
PNG WANTS TO RATE GRADING SERVICES WITHOUT ANY
REPRESENTATION FROM ALL THE GRADING SERVICES.
THIS IS A DISSERVICE TO THE PUBLIC. THEIR
PRIVATE AGENDA AGAINST THE SMALL GRADING SERVICES
IS TO ELIMINATE THE COMPETITION.
WE BELIEVE THAT ALL GRADING SERVICES SHOULD BE
LICENSED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. THE F.T.C.
SITED A MAJOR SERVICE FOR INSIDER GRADING AND
FINED ANOTHER $4 MILLION. FEDERAL REGULATORS
SHOULD BAN INSIDER GRADING AND THE CONTROL OF
PRICE GUIDES BY GRADING SERVICES. THIS WOULD
CREATE AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD FOR ALL SERVICES.
ACG CERTIFIED 244,000 COINS IN THE LAST THREE YEARS
AND GREW OVER 3,000% IN THAT SAME TIME. WE DID NOT DO
THAT BECAUSE OF OVERGRADING. NOR NEGATIVE RUMORS,
EMAILS OR CHAT ROOM INNUENDO FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE
NEVER BOUGHT OR SOLD AN ACG COIN.
ACG DID IT IN THE FREE MARKET OF COMPETITION AND
ENTREPRENEURSHIP, ACG’S RECORD IS IMPECCABLE, NOT
ONE MAJOR COMPLAINT BY ANYONE SINCE 1984. IN THE 3
YEARS ON EBAY AND YAHOO, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF COINS
TRADED NOT ONE MAJOR COMPLAINT AGAINST ACCUGRADE.
WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE YOU CAN PAY TIFFANY OR
K.MART PRICES. EVERY ACG SALE AT A LOWER PRICE IS A
SALE THE MAJORS CANNOT MEET OR BEAT, THIS IS WHAT IS
CALLED TRUE COMPETITION. THIS IS CONSUMER PROTECTION
Barry, well done.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
From what I understand none of the other TPGs are getting involved with this situation. (Eric please correct me if I am wrong.) And I would imagine that a precedent set in this case could very well be used not only against less reputable TPGs, but also the big the three.
Any lawyer worth his/her salt could easily compare and analogize the ACG situation to any TPG.
No one is perfect all the time. You just need the "right" facts. Unless a TPG is above reproach in the manner in which it does business, this could as the saying goes, open the floodgates of litigation not only against TPGs but also large dealers, telemarkets, auction houses, ect.
Michael
<< <i>And still they haven't acknowledged a complaint, right?
From their website:
"ASA-Accugrade had never had a major complaint filed against us in 20 years. The same goes for Coin World in 6 years. Hard to believe but it's a fact."
WE BELIEVE THAT ALL GRADING SERVICES SHOULD BE
LICENSED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. THE F.T.C.
SITED A MAJOR SERVICE FOR INSIDER GRADING AND
FINED ANOTHER $4 MILLION.
Michael
Russ, NCNE
Contributions to the ANA Defense Fund can be made by check or money order payable to the American Numismatic Association, 818 North Cascade Avenue, Colorado Springs, CO 80903. Please note "Defense Fund" on the memo line of the check or money order.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Very well written. I only hope that this doesn't turn into a media circus with the Hagers taking out their own 2 page spread. >>
They can't... they're not members of the ANA
On an aside, my business has been a defendant in two frivolous lawsuits (won both at a low 5 figure cost each). The only way we can bring these rediculous suits to an end is to change the law in this country to "Loser Pays". If the Hagers knew they would have to pay all of the defendants costs when they lose this case (as I am sure they will) this suit would never have been filed. But this matter belongs on the Open Forum......a place I do not visit.
edited: to clarify that it is the "loser pays" issue that belongs on the Open Forum, not the AGC Lawsuit issue. This post is very appropriate here in the Coin Forum.
<< <i>I only hope that this doesn't turn into a media circus with the Hagers taking out their own 2 page spread. >>
"Two page spread" and "the Hagers" are two terms that do not go well together.
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>
<< <i>And still they haven't acknowledged a complaint, right?
From their website:
"ASA-Accugrade had never had a major complaint filed against us in 20 years. The same goes for Coin World in 6 years. Hard to believe but it's a fact."
Key word major
By "major" they probably mean filed a law suit
PS: Thanks for the article, I finally learned all about the lawsuit. I don't understand it though, if they file a lawsuit agianst you can't you just ignore it? Sorry, I know nothing about politics or law..
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
Would that be good for them?
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Thanks for posting the letter and for the update on this situation.
Even tho you and i have had our "run ins" i still hope everything works out in the positive for you, and the other 45 defendants involved.
I see that there are no auctions going for the defense fund ? Will there be any more ?
You'll notice that it says that my wife and I are expecting a third child. Well, we lost it due to a miscaraige a few weeks ago. She wasn't that far along and it is something that we were prepaired for. We didn't tell our other two children just for this reason. There is no history of miscairage in our family but we just wanted to be safe. I'm glad that they aren't old enough to read this magazine.
<< <i>^ I am sorry for your loss. The details of your story in the article adds a more personal side to the effects of this lawsuit, so I commend you for allowing it to be included. I personally wouldn't want that level of personal information (name, family details) written up in a national publication. >>
Thanks for the kind words. About the personal information. I guess I'm a "sharer". I don't mind people knowing who I am and what I do. I used to have a quote of "I yam what I yam" in my sig file. Had it for a couple of years or so, I should probably use it again - I like it
It's a quote by Popeye by the way.
<< <i>I don't understand it though, if they file a lawsuit agianst you can't you just ignore it? Sorry, I know nothing about politics or law.. >>
If you're sued, you have a few options. You can:
-Not respond to the notice of being served by the court... automatically lose
-Settle outside of court
-Go to trial
The latter two very likely will have attornies involved. To not respond means you have no chance. Our system makes this a tricky spot, because you have to pay for a lawyer (not cheap). Other countries, though, the loser of the case pays all attorney fees. For instance, if the Hagers lost in England (I think they are one of the countries), they'd pay the lawyer fees for all the defendants... if that happened, I'm sure there'd be no suit (and if there was, the defendants would happily say, "bring it on")
Jeremy
I'm not sure what the law is in Florida, but here in California, if someone sues you and it is rather baseless, you can sue them (if you win the first lawsuit) and try to recover your attorney's fees. While for the most part it is rather difficult, it is an option here.
Second, most lawsuits involve countersuits. Usually if you sue someone, they're going to sue you right back. Which means they might lose and you might win. Hence, they would end up paying you money to cover your attorney fees.
And, in California, in a class action lawsuit (17200) loser pays attorneys fees.
From a theoretical standpoint, we don't want a "loser" pays system. It restricts your rights to file lawsuits. People who have been damaged might be afraid to file a valid lawsuit in case they lose. Remember, cases are not always decided by what is morally correct, cases are decided by evidence. If you are standing on the moral highground, but have no evidence, you're probably going to lose. So with a loser pays system, the person who has been wronged, but has a weak case will be wronged a 2nd time by being forced to pay the attorney of the guy that scr*wed him over.
Michael
<< <i>From a theoretical standpoint, we don't want a "loser" pays system. >>
Hey Michael
I am pretty sure "we" want a "loser pays" system. It is "you, as in lawyers" who want the system to remain the same.
It is "you, as in lawyers" who want the system to remain the same
"There was a problem reading this document (9)."
Clicked "OK"
Then new message:
"This file contains information not understood by the viewer. Suppress further errors?"
It doesn't matter if I click yes or no, it doesn't download anything.
I have Adobe 6.0 and it works on other other sites.
<< <i> am pretty sure "we" want a "loser pays" system. It is "you, as in lawyers" who want the system to remain the same. >>
Fats -- think about your statement, why would the lawyers care who paid them? Money is money. The idea that all lawyers are "money grubbing SOBs" is just plain wrong. I always tell my clients any money that they spend on me is completely wasted. Litigation is a huge hole in the ground that you throw money into. Smart people stay out of court. It's that simple.
Lets see if you agree with this. (I don't practice divorce so this might be a little off but you get the idea.) Your wife, who stays home and raises your children goes out one night and has intercourse with the Oakland Raiders -- all of them at once. When finding out about this, you obviously become enraged and file for divorce. You being, rather smart have invested money in real estate, stocks, coins, business entities and cash positions. She is unaware of all your holdings. Being quite upset with her, you, during the divorce don't reveal all of your assets. She has to hire a lawyer and a forensic accountant to trace/find all your money.
You end up losing not only 50% of your assets, but you lose custody of your children and on top of that you have to pay more than $75,000.00 for her lawyers and forensic accountants all because your wife decided to have some fun with the Oakland Raiders.
I know someone who that happened too -- not the Oakland Raiders part, but the division of marital property and paying for his wife's attorney and accountant. The thing that bothered him most was paying for the attorneys so that his wife could take half of his money.
Think about the implications of a loser pays system.
Michael
Joeyuk - You must have one helluva salary. Wanna buy some coins?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I can't read the letter either. Error message.
"There was a problem reading this document (9)."
Clicked "OK"
Then new message:
"This file contains information not understood by the viewer. Suppress further errors?"
It doesn't matter if I click yes or no, it doesn't download anything.
I have Adobe 6.0 and it works on other other sites. >>
Have you tried saving the file locally? Acrobat reader still has bugs as a browser plugin.
Sorry to hear about your loss.
Anyone setting up an email address for the ANA legal defense fund so I could paypal them?
-KHayse
<< <i>I can't read the letter either. Error message.
"There was a problem reading this document (9)."
Clicked "OK"
Then new message:
"This file contains information not understood by the viewer. Suppress further errors?"
It doesn't matter if I click yes or no, it doesn't download anything.
I have Adobe 6.0 and it works on other other sites. >>
Yep I received the same message, even after downloading the file on to my hard drive it did not work. First time I have ever had that problem.
<< <i><< am pretty sure "we" want a "loser pays" system. It is "you, as in lawyers" who want the system to remain the same. >>
think about your statement, why would the lawyers care who paid them? >>
Uh, gee, maybe because fewer lawsuits would be filed?
BTW, for those who don't realize it, in a loser pays system the loser does not automatically pay. The loser only gets stuck with the tab if the suit is deemed frivolous. The fact is, there is no logical argument against it. It would force lawyers and plaintiffs to really consider the merits of their case. As it is now, there is no penalty for flooding the system with garbage.
Russ, NCNE
It was not my objective to hijack this thread with my loser pays comment. I have moved my conversation with Michael to PMs. This is Eric's thread for a good cause. Lets get it back on topic.
When I was a newbie, I bought an ACG MS65 Indian Cent on Ebay. Turned out to be artificially colored, and body-bagged by NGC and PCGS.
(Another) contribution sent!
<< <i>But this matter belongs on the Open Forum......a place I do not visit. >>
Fats--This has everything to do with coins. It belongs right here (although the "loser pays" debate wandered a bit off course).
OT: We'd love to see you on the Open Forum, BTW!
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...