Grade the endroll-toned 1937 buffalo!!!

airplanenut · May 17, 2004 12:47PM

rainbowroosie · May 17, 2004 12:49PM

66/64=65

XpipedreamR · May 17, 2004 12:50PM

PCGS 65
NGC 66
ICG 67

RGL · May 17, 2004 12:52PM

Average strike, nice surfaces, perhaps a bump for toning/eye appeal: shot 66. I like!

KlectorKid · May 17, 2004 12:56PM

MS-65 but I could never grade these little guys very well.

100proof1957 · May 17, 2004 1:19PM

i suck !
give it 65-66

TonedCoinTrader · May 17, 2004 1:20PM

65/66

fullerfun4 · May 17, 2004 1:25PM

Excellent toning! Looks 65 or so to me. Nice!
Gary

coinbuf · May 17, 2004 1:30PM

Too many hits for 65 so I'll say MS64; but I suck at grading buffs.

Chris

prooflike · May 17, 2004 2:04PM

64 maybe 65 for color

PCBUM · May 17, 2004 3:03PM

64.........

Morgans767 · May 17, 2004 4:09PM

The top coin might be cleaned, its washed out with hairlines. the bottom coin looks perfect to me, not a single mark that I can see, id submit both anyway. Whats a perfect coin usually grade? I hear that ms70 is perfect but the coin also has to be untoned so id say ms68 but im not a pro so dont take it on me

relayer · May 17, 2004 4:41PM

A pair of 64's

tsacch · May 17, 2004 8:09PM

Easy 64, probably 65, shot 66. Sending her in?

BigD5 · May 17, 2004 8:35PM

ms/65. Ticky reverse, and soft central devices on the obv. Looks to have great eye appeal.

3Legs · May 17, 2004 8:59PM

<< 66/64=65 >>

That's what I'm thinking too. Great coin, I really like it!

fivecents · May 17, 2004 9:24PM

Great photography!! MS65

pontiacinf · May 17, 2004 10:14PM

I see it graded MINE as jeremy just pmd and said he's giving it to me

pontiacinf · May 17, 2004 10:14PM

dammmmmm

i just woke up

kieferscoins · May 17, 2004 10:16PM

MS-65.

Cameron Kiefer

RBB617 · May 17, 2004 10:20PM

A good chance at 65, and a long shot at 66. Great toning.

elwood · May 17, 2004 10:24PM

63 shot 4

Numismanic · May 17, 2004 11:09PM

MS65

poorguy · May 17, 2004 11:11PM

The 4 images are of the same coin. The saturation of the color has been advanced in the second pics. The brightness and contrast has also been adjusted.

The coin's obverse has a fairly weak strike but nice pastel color. The luster is nice but the marks on the indian's hair to the left of his eye look like planchet striations which might bring the grade down. They might also be scratches from other coins. In a nutshell, they are blemishes that bring the grade of the coin down. I do see some hairlines in the fields below the indian's chin but I will give the benefit of the doubt that this coin hasn't been cleaned. If in fact those are hairline marks from cleaning, I grade it AU58.

The reverse also carries a weak strike but still a nice pastel color. The luster is about the same as on the obverse but there are more hits on this buffalo that would bring the grade down.

Because I can't see this coin in person and I have suspisions of it being cleaned I will give two grades. I am leaning more to believing the coin had been cleaned though.

If the coin had been cleaned: AU58

If the coin had not been cleaned: MS62

kieferscoins · May 18, 2004 12:01AM

I'm sorry but it's way better than MS-62. I'd pay the grading fees if it came back lower than MS-64!

Cameron Kiefer

poorguy · May 18, 2004 12:09AM

Yeah, my grade was kind of conservative but I looked at the coin longer than they do at TPGS.

It might make it into an MS64 holder but in my book, I wouldn't pay more than MS62 money for it.

oreville · May 18, 2004 12:10AM

Hmmm....I thought I graded this coin already. Yet I can't find my post?

I found it!!! Why are there two posts regarding grading the same coin?

Here is the copy of my previous post in the other thread.

Monday May 17, 2004 11:55 PM (NEW!)

Sorry, left out the 1937 Buff MS-63. Real nice color! PQ for the grade.
-------------------------
Happy collecting,

Oreville

27 Jan 1967 Apollo 204
28 Jan 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger
1 Feb 2003 Space Shuttle Columbia.

kieferscoins · May 18, 2004 12:17AM

<< my grade was kind of conservative but I looked at the coin longer than they do at TPGS. >>

Consewrvative is good, but a 15 second look by the experts can be as accurate as a 2 minute look by you. It doesn't mean you will grade it better if you look longer.

Cameron Kiefer

poorguy · May 18, 2004 12:31AM

Not true, sometimes a quick glance can miss some of the key points of a coin.

I my opinion, the longer a person looks at a coin, the more the grade goes down. I find that when I look at a coin and reallly look at the details, I find that I am not very impressed with the coins that sometimes make it into ms66 holders.

Take this coin. There are either large scratches or planchet striations on the indian's hair over where his ear would be. The toning takes your eyes away from it though. There are some scratches on his cheek also. Look how the feather blends into the hair. Weak strike.

On the reverse, the buffalo has it's own problems. There are a number of pretty good marks on him.

I just don't see this coin getting into something over MS63 without a grader overlooking some of these flaws. To me it looks like this coin is AVERAGE UNCIRCULATED. No more, no less. Unless it was cleaned, then its AU58.

kieferscoins · May 18, 2004 12:36AM

OK. I'd love to buy coins from you then, that you spend minutes on knocking down in grade. I tried helping but you are the type of "grader" I love to cherrypick.

<< Unless it was cleaned, then its AU58. >>

If it is cleaned it is a bodybag. Unless you are ANACS with Net AU-58.

Cameron Kiefer

poorguy · May 18, 2004 12:48AM

Cameron,

OK. I'd love to buy coins from you then, that you spend minutes on knocking down in grade. I tried helping but you are the type of "grader" I love to cherrypick.

I appreciate how you put the word "grader" in quotes.

oreville, was the coin graded in the other thread? What is the link to that thread?
You said:
Sorry, left out the 1937 Buff MS-63. Real nice color! PQ for the grade.

Cameron,
I have some morgan dollars I need to sell. You are welcome to them if you wish.

kieferscoins · May 18, 2004 12:52AM

Yes, I read the post. orveille said he graded it MS-63:

Orville posted:

<< Here is the copy of my previous post in the other thread.

Monday May 17, 2004 11:55 PM (NEW!)

Sorry, left out the 1937 Buff MS-63. Real nice color! PQ for the grade.
-------------------------
>>

<< Looks like you owe somebody some grading fees. >>

Please show me where Jeremy says what it was slabbed as.

I stand by my previous post that I will pay the fees if it goes lower than MS-64. You want to pay if it is MS-64 or higher poorguy? Jeremy is a YN and this could only help him

Cameron Kiefer

poorguy · May 18, 2004 1:02AM

I edited my post about that. I thought he said it was graded as that.

I still don't think it will go MS65 and a real longshot to make it ms64. I don't know how much they bump for color but I don't think it will get more than MS62-63.

Cameron said: "I stand by my previous post that I will pay the fees if it goes lower than MS-64."

Cameron, as long as you don't know the current "slabbed" grade of this coin, I'll take you up on that. I am poor as dirt but I stand by my grading skills. Even if they are conservative. I'll pay regular submission grading fees for the coin of $30 plus shipping on the coin if it comes back graded Higher than MS64. If it comes back lower than MS64, you pay the submission fees and shipping. If it comes out MS64 we split the submission fees and shipping evenly.

If the coin is bodybagged though for AT or cleaning, you pay the submission and shipping fees because technically, that is lower than MS64.

Sound like a fair challenge?

I think Jeremy would appreciate this no matter what the coin is graded.

kieferscoins · May 18, 2004 1:04AM

Sounds fine to me poorguy.

I don't know what it is graded (I think Jeremy bought it raw) and have not seen it in person either.

This is fun

Cameron Kiefer

poorguy · May 18, 2004 1:10AM

I agree. This is fun. We should have grading competitions like this frequently.

In a way, everybody wins.

jom · May 18, 2004 1:11AM

You have to look at this in several different ways.

The looks to me like it has some hairlining....maybe. If you just go by the "marks" then 63 or 64. If that "marks" are in fact hairlining then 62/63 at best.

Plus it is just too dependent on the luster and since luster is not something that translates well to a picture it is exceedingly hard to grade. From what I can detect from the picture 64 is not out of the question. It DOES have luster...how good? Only Jeremy knows.

The strike is good enough to 65 if all else is OK.

That is about as best as you are going to get unless you SEE the coin in person.

jom

poorguy · May 18, 2004 1:13AM

Cameron, you already know why I think the grade will be lower than MS64 from my previous posts.

Please elaborate on why you think it will grade higher than MS64.

This is the educational part of the competition so that the onlookers can see why we so strongly believe the grade of the coin.

Buffalo nickels are hard to grade so this should be interesting to find out what it gets slabbed as.

kieferscoins · May 18, 2004 1:19AM

It has a good strike. The hair detail on the obverse is almost all there. It has color and no major marks. MS-64 seems to be the starting point and I might go 65 if I saw it in person and liked the look and luster of the coin. I can't see it lower than that because it dosen't have any major ditractions, and seems to have ok luster.

Cameron Kiefer

poorguy · May 18, 2004 1:27AM

Fair enough. But what about the scratches on the indian's hair? They look pretty distracting to me. I'd say if those scratches weren't there and the strike was a bit fuller, it would go MS64. The luster I am sure is nice on this piece also.

kieferscoins · May 18, 2004 1:31AM

Scratch is a harsh word. At worst they might be some slide marks. I don't see them as a major distraction but in person they could be worse.

Cameron Kiefer

poorguy · May 18, 2004 1:33AM

Are you going to contact Jeremy about sending the coin in? I wonder if he even knows we are doing this.

kieferscoins · May 18, 2004 1:46AM

He will see the thread. I haven't contacted him.

Cameron Kiefer

airplanenut · May 18, 2004 2:35AM

There are no scratches on the coin--these types of coins simply have some weird lustre that's hard to capture, especially when there's toning on top of the lustre.

As for paying for a submission... fine by me

I got the coin raw over the weekend

<< The 4 images are of the same coin. The saturation of the color has been advanced in the second pics. The brightness and contrast has also been adjusted. >>

That's untrue. I never have/never will saturate my pictures. The only difference is I moved the light source to bring out the color and not the lustre. These pictures are straight from the original and cropped--they were quick pics, and I didn't have the time when I cropped them to do anything more than crop (the only time I do anything is to remove slab glare, by the way). Coin looks like the picture.

Jeremy

poorguy · May 18, 2004 3:43AM

Jeremy, I didn't mean to imply that you used photo-editing software to enhance the saturation, brightness, and contrast of the coin. All of that can be done with proper lighting and angle techniques. I was trying to note that is was the same coin with two different levels of saturation, brightness, and contrast on the coin. Some folks were saying "The first coin looks cleaned but the second one is beautiful. " I wanted to clear that up.

Jeremy, what grade do you think the coin is?

Shamika · May 18, 2004 4:31AM

Nice toning and luster, but the strike is not great for the issue and there are several hits.

It should grade MS64 or MS65. MS66 is out of the question.

mgoodm3 · May 18, 2004 4:33AM

I'd go 65.

Elcontador · May 18, 2004 4:49AM

For reasons mentioned by RGL & Darin, I think this coin would go MS 64, maybe MS 65 on a good day. I like the obverse surfaces. However, the strike is average. Not much detail just above the braid on the obverse and the tail is not sharply defined. The reverse has many small contact marks. If the latter was not the case, I'd say the coin would go 5, assume everything else checks out when you actually see the coin.

BTW, nice photography, Jeremy.

coinguy1 · May 18, 2004 4:52AM

Gentlemen, when looking at and speaking of the marks/imperfections on the coin, remember to keep in mind how large the images and magnification are.

jom · May 18, 2004 5:18AM

<< Gentlemen, when looking at and speaking of the marks/imperfections on the coin, remember to keep in mind how large the images and magnification are >>

Another great reason you can't grade by a picture. And to argue about it is even more absurd...it's nothing more than a guess. Even when you've seen the coin you never really know for CERTAIN what it will grade, especially for a PQ coin that has some marks or whatever. It is very difficult to grade.

jom

coinfreak499 · May 18, 2004 5:47AM

I like this coin alot and have one just like this myself. Not as nicely toned though. I am not good at grading these bufflo nickels and give it a MS 65/66. (im a new collector)

relayer · May 18, 2004 6:13AM

<< A pair of 64's >>

I might be too dumb to realize they were the same coin, but at least I'm consistent with my grading

Grade the endroll-toned 1937 buffalo!!!

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