Frattlaw, I don't know the other side of this story, and there is one...
I can look at Jadecoin now and say this person acussed me repeatedly of namecalling and could only reference the remark i made as to the way the tone of his post presented itself...
this person was wrong to accuse me of name calling and so now I have reason to doubt whatever they have said concerning the pedigree, it seems very believeable to me that their version of the story will indeed make them out to be the victim as to what extent and what the truth is I don't know.
But I will again dispute the statement that the graders guess when the tough coins come in.....
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
that it's no wonder you have the reputation that you have amongst the dealer community
And what reputation would that be? I have a great reputation within the numismatic community. The people who don't like me are the ones who are afraid of the fact that I call it like I see it. I don't "play games". If you want to get into specifics and compare my business practices to that of others, then consider this: Jade Rare Coin is one of the very, very few dealers that offer a 100% return priviledge on ANY coin that we sell with NO LIMIT on time. That's because we stand behind our grading and pricing. And we don't play the crack-out game because we don't sell plastic......we sell coins. Those 2 facts positively separate us from many, including yourself.
I suggest that you cease with your grandstanding and inflammatory comments. Tell it straight, and save the fluff.
"Inflammatory"? Where? Who? What? When? I was the one who was attacked today and I asked for civility on the forum, rather than engage in a fight. "Tell it straight"? I stated my opinion, even though I know that it's out of favor with 95% of this forum and will isolate me from potential customers. I am not here to troll for business. I am here to discuss coins and offer my opinions. Isn't that about as straight as it gets? Of course I could post about things that have happened behind the scenes with the grading companies, but I am not here to start a riot. I am careful regarding the content of my experiences and opinions. If you read my earlier post in this thread, I ranked PCGS and NGC as the top 2 grading services. I don't want to get into the whole "is third party grading good for the hobby or bad for the hobby". That's a very big discussion.
I simply stated my opinion. If one were to do a search on JadeRareCoin on this forum, you would see that I post to answer member questions (i.e. attributions, grading opinions, etc.), to the best of my ability. I also post to offer praise when someone posts a coin that I like. In addition, I post when I have a question, especially on the World Coin Forum.
Now, when you do your search, you will also see that EVP seems to follow me around and accuse me of things, insult me and ridicule my opinions, just as he has done right here in this thread. EVP, why are you so fascinated by my opinion that you have to chase me around on the forum(s) and attempt to undermine my credibility?
<< <i>Now, when you do your search, you will also see that EVP seems to follow me around and accuse me of things, insult me and ridicule my opinions, just as he has done right here in this thread. EVP, why are you so fascinated by my opinion that you have to chase me around on the forum(s) and attempt to undermine my credibility? >>
you underminded your own credibilty with the graders guessing bit, then the Lucy the name caller stuff....
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
this person was wrong to accuse me of name calling and so now I have reason to doubt whatever they have said concerning the pedigree, it seems very believeable to me that their version of the story will indeed make them out to be the victim as to what extent and what the truth is I don't know.
Jade once did something similar to me in a totally unrelated thread not too long ago. In that thread, I asked him to stop nitpicking at specific phraseology. His reponse? That I stop doing it to him. I told him that I didn't even realize I was doing it. In fact, I hadn't been parsing words with him.
Welcome to the boards!! Lots to learn here, in particular about certified coins.
Baley is exactly correct, a Third Party grade certification just an opinion, and as such, is not like a fixed "fact" about which a person who "doesn't know" the "answer" can "guess" and be either right or wrong.
On the other hand, certifying your coins is very important when it comes to your investment.
Look at the 17 bids on the 1893 S you posted. I hope all these people are RAW collectors because this coin is also likely to get body bagged from either NGC or PCGS. This is to say nothing of the poor buyer that originally bought this for $14,000 if the ebay sellers add is correct.
“GENUINE. I bought it from a collector who ordered it form a recent Coin World ad and paid a whopping $14,000 for it !”
Is this your general opinion of those whose views differ from yours re the mainstream services? I think that comment of yours belies your other comment that we can all be friends here.
<< <i>that it's no wonder you have the reputation that you have amongst the dealer community
And what reputation would that be? I have a great reputation within the numismatic community. The people who don't like me are the ones who are afraid of the fact that I call it like I see it. I don't "play games". If you want to get into specifics and compare my business practices to that of others, then consider this: Jade Rare Coin is one of the very, very few dealers that offer a 100% return priviledge on ANY coin that we sell with NO LIMIT on time. That's because we stand behind our grading and pricing. And we don't play the crack-out game because we don't sell plastic......we sell coins. Those 2 facts positively separate us from many, including yourself.
I suggest that you cease with your grandstanding and inflammatory comments. Tell it straight, and save the fluff.
"Inflammatory"? Where? Who? What? When? I was the one who was attacked today and I asked for civility on the forum, rather than engage in a fight. "Tell it straight"? I stated my opinion, even though I know that it's out of favor with 95% of this forum and will isolate me from potential customers. I am not here to troll for business. I am here to discuss coins and offer my opinions. Isn't that about as straight as it gets? Of course I could post about things that have happened behind the scenes with the grading companies, but I am not here to start a riot. I am careful regarding the content of my experiences and opinions. If you read my earlier post in this thread, I ranked PCGS and NGC as the top 2 grading services. I don't want to get into the whole "is third party grading good for the hobby or bad for the hobby". That's a very big discussion.
I simply stated my opinion. If one were to do a search on JadeRareCoin on this forum, you would see that I post to answer member questions (i.e. attributions, grading opinions, etc.), to the best of my ability. I also post to offer praise when someone posts a coin that I like. In addition, I post when I have a question, especially on the World Coin Forum.
Now, when you do your search, you will also see that EVP seems to follow me around and accuse me of things, insult me and ridicule my opinions, just as he has done right here in this thread. EVP, why are you so fascinated by my opinion that you have to chase me around on the forum(s) and attempt to undermine my credibility? >>
I suggest you please back off of Lucy. She is a very kind lady and it takes alot to push her to her limits. Some of the things you say refer to how much you dispise certified grading. Like calling slabs "plastic". We all have opinions here. But some of the things you say you really need to stop. It may not seem like insults to you, ( and I see that your trying to help), but others interpute it different.
I suggest you please back off of Lucy. She is a very kind lady and it takes alot to push her to her limits. Some of the things you say refer to how much you dispise certified grading. Like calling slabs "plastic". We all have opinions here. But some of the things you say you really need to stop. It may not seem like insults to you, ( and I see that your trying to help), but others interpute it different.
You gotta be kidding (no pun intended) me, right? She and EVP attacked me.
As far as calling slabs "plastic". What do you think they are made of? Metal? You go on to state that "we all have opinions here". Well, why am I not entitled to my opinion? If you go back and read everything that I post on these forums, I simply state my feelings about the slabbing industry. There are many, many, many people on the forums who only praise slabbing. I read their posts and consider their opinions. Then I state my opinions. Do you understand that not everybody will agree 100% of the time? The one thing that everyone (presumably) on this forum has in common is that we all love coins. Some like them raw and ever more like them slabbed. So be it. But now you are attacking me.
Also, remember in your post where EVERYONE attacked you last week (about the ANACS slab). Go back and read that thread. I was one of a very, very few members who supported you. Mainly because I don't like to see the attacks that take place here. I even offered to pay OUT OF MY POCKET to have your slab problem fixed.
Just a subtle reminder: I submit coins to PCGS, NGC and ANACS. I do in fact play the slabbing game in the sense that I submit at all. However, I do not crack and resubmit coins and play the "big game". That's where I draw the line and I state my opinion as such.
If you do not want me to state my honest opinion, then please just say so. (and I will respectfully and totally ignore you)
because someone disagrees with your bogus statements, now you have been attacked....
again, you said, aieeeeee, the graders guess with tough coins, you got called on it, you know you can't back this claim up, so now your some victim that has been attacked....
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Frattlaw, don't you dare lecture me and tell me what to look at one way or another, I am highly successful and rather wealthy and I achieved it without any of your 'pearls of wisdom', you and jadecoin and anybody else can think what you want, and I'll think what I want.
Yours is also just a opinion, and nothing more.... >>
whenever anybody disagrees with jade coin and calls him up on one of his statements. hes been attacked.....
in his world, I guess everbody should conform to his way of thinking, less he feels attacked...
Lucy, that's exactly my point; we DO NOT have to agree to share this fraternity known as coin collecting. Each is entitled to his or her opinion. Please....PLEASE.....go back and read this thread from the beginning. All that I did was state my opininon. Then you started to direct comments at me that were unneccessary.
we will not get anywhere with this, yes you stated your opinion and I called you on it....
I asked for proof that the graders simply guess when dealing with tough coins as you put it... But obviously you don't know what goes on in the grading room, therefore you are unable to answer, so it seems then that you decided to adapt this 'Lucy has attacked me bit'.........
maybe to try and detract from your statement about the' guessing graders'... I dunno......
I commented that that post came off as allknowing and arrogant and I still believe it to be so.....You see that as a attack? You need to grow thicker skin then that.....
but feel attacked then, thats your choice, and as you make these type of remarks, I'll call a spade a spade once again....
Unless you can show this board proof beyond a doubt that the graders play guessing games with the tough coins....
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
What I don't understand is why you insist that I must prove my OPINION to you. I don't ask others to prove their opinions to me. For example, I did not ask you to prove your opinion that professional graders do not guess on difficult-to-grade coins. I just accept your opinion and I don't dislike you because we do not agree. What's the big deal?
<< <i>A customer of ours has an 1807 draped bust quarter. Beautiful coin. Choice original VF-20. The coin was originally purchased by another client of ours in an ANACS VF-20 holder. The customer removed the coin (he only has raw coins in his collection). We purchaed the coin from him over a year ago after he found an upgrade. We sold the coin at a Chicago show as VF-20 raw. The new owner submitted the coin to ANACS. Came back as F-12. He called us and asked us for our opinion on the matter. We laughed and said that his coin was caught in a game; ANACS has been grading strictly lately in an attempt to appear as conservative as PCGS. That's the word on the street and he agreed. He then sent the coin to NGC. Came back in a body bag for being "bent". Laughable. He then sent it to PCGS. Came back in a body bag for "tooling". We can only assume that "tooling" is a broad category for other damage. Sent it back to NGC and it came back as VF-20. Then crossed it to PCGS at the same grade. So, here's a coin that ranged from 2 body bags to F-12 to VF-20. >>
it's a story everyone should read & understand. if that doesn't PROVE to you that grading is 100% subjective, nothing will.
btw, i happen to be VERY GLAD that grading is totally subjective. it's sad to me that so many folks seem to think that subjectivity in a hobby your meant to enjoy is a "bad" thing. as if it would be better had we nothing to discuss about when it comes to which coin's best, most attractive, most fun, etc. the right of every to GRADE FOR HIMSELF is the most noble tenet of this hobby.
<< <i>I worked with a very gifted staff of engineers..... we never sat around guessing....... we relied heavily on data and statistical anaylisis to drive our decisions and process changes.... Intel is now doing 300mm process that is state of the art and producing some astounding clock speeds on their Pentium chips... >>
that works well & good for measurable, mechanical processes, but you cannot "measure" the grade of a coin, you can ONLY "guess" it.
i can see lucybop's distinction between guessing & a professional opinion, i'll just say that for me, a professional opinion is still a guess, albeit maybe a very excellent guess. i agree that extremely qualified graders work at pcgs, ngc, anacs, but their entire profession of grading coins is based on GUESSING at the market value for a coin, & applying the corresponding grade. again, it's a very well educated guess, a professional opinion, based on heaps of SUBJECTIVE data, but it is still a guess than can often be wrong, & should be open to debate. the industry will be at rock bottom when it is no longer allowed to argue w/ a slabed grade.
what happened with upittman's coin is likely that the graders GUESSED the coin would not be acceptable to collectors who rely on plastic, so it got bodybagged. if i understand the jade boys comment to mean that difficult coins are more likely to get differing opinions, i would totally agree, & that's a good thing (that opinions/guesses can & do differ between people)
<< <i>If you would read carefully enough, you would know that Jade is the one who is trying to turn this thread into a mess with his outlandish portrayal of clueless, unprofessional graders huddled together throwing darts to deal with the toughies. Jade, I don't know what kind of game you're playing around here, but you are so beyond ridiculous that it's not funny. It seems like every comment I see you make is so far afield of objectivity that it's no wonder you have the reputation that you have amongst the dealer community. If you really want to help the collectors around here, I suggest that you cease with your grandstanding and inflammatory comments. Tell it straight, and save the fluff. >>
evillageprowler, i just gotta know, what's the "reputation" the jade boys "have amongst the dealer community"? PLEASE fill us in - you don't even mention if their reputation is good or bad...
<< <i>What I don't understand is why you insist that I must prove my OPINION to you. I don't ask others to prove their opinions to me. For example, I did not ask you to prove your opinion that professional graders do not guess on difficult-to-grade coins. I just accept your opinion and I don't dislike you because we do not agree. What's the big deal? >>
Ok, its just a matter of opinion then, and my opinion of your intial post is that you have no idea what goes on in the grading room to make such a claim.
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Your link didn't work, and even if it did it may not mean a thing, just as you earlier made a link to a Franklin that you tried to imply was some kid of grading miscue when it was simply heavy die polishing.
I know they don't get the grades right every time, but there are people that will always whine and bash when they find these examples, and never offer praise for the many many times the Grading companys get it correct. You will only hear the they guess or they suck or they don't have a clue or you must be a major submitor to get a good grade kind of storys, you'll never hear the success storys....
The people of these boards would be all over PCGs/NGC myself included if indeed we saw a undeniable trend that they simply guess when the tough coins come in....
They form a opinion based on skill, and more then one grader gives this opinion on a coin.
PCGs ran the grading contests, and those that did very well, did it because of skill, rather then sitting around guessing, and, there were tough coins in these contests.....
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>I know they don't get the grades right every time, but there are people that will always whine and bash when they find these examples, and never offer praise for the many many times the Grading companys get it correct. >>
i can only speak for myself, but the reason i don't praise any co., or any collector for that matter for getting grades "correct" is because there's not such thing as a "correct" grade to me.
however, when i agree w/ what pcgs or ngc, or even acg for that matter, called it, i will & have gladly post that i'm pleased w/ how they grade it.
1 other minor thing, since this thread made it back to page 1, i'd still be curious as to the aspect of the jade boys's "reputation" that evillageprowler was referring to. i don't think it's right for him to imply there's something wrong w/ a dealer's reputation on a (supposedly) widely-read public forum, & not explain.
Wow. This thread is fascinating. I'm sorry I missed reading it as it developed. The poor newbie who asked the question to start this off must be cowering in a corner somewhere.
I do think that personal attacks have no place on here. We all have a certain level of sophistication or we wouldn't be spending our time here in the first place. That entitles all of us, even the self-professed "newbies" brave enough to stop lurking and start posting to a modicum of respect and dignity.
As for grading, well, that's the one we can tussle over forever. It seems that people vote with their feet (money). Three major grading services are well into their second decade. When they started, there were a couple of pages in auction catalogs with slabbed coins -- that's it. Today, auction catalogs are full of slabbed coins from them.
It obviously worked in the marketplace. I don't think any of us who have not worked as graders (or who do not have the real, true pipeline into the confidential communications in the grading room) do too well to take potshots at what the graders do. Their ten seconds with a coin, after having seen and graded hundreds of thousands, is well worth more than my taking all night gazing at one.
For my money, I buy the slabbed coins that I think are good coins, not for the plastic. I also collect raw coins, mainly AU's because they are prettier than lower level MS coins, and stick em in Dansco albums and it brings me as much or more joy than all the plastic I own.
I hate to see people dumping on good people who frequent this place. Let's all try to keep the level of discourse up where we don't have to do that.
Lawyers say that: if the law is on your side, argue the law; if the facts are on your side, argue the facts, and; if you have neither the facts nor the law going for you, then take off your shoe and bang loudly on the table in hopes that nobody will notice.
Thank you all for your insight...it was very helpful. After reading your thoughts, I think I'm going to try to sell it raw or consign it. I'd rather use the money I save from not joining the "game" and add to my collection. I'll post some pictures when I get it back though. Thanks again.
I'm sorry I missed reading it as it developed. The poor newbie who asked the question to start this off must be cowering in a corner somewhere.
Glad to see that he/she returned.
Jade's anecdote about the early quarter is perhaps the best lesson on why not to rely too heavily on the TPGs. That said, without them, I would still be collecting heavily circulated common date large cents.
FACT 1: Grading is an opinion. Some opinions are better than others, I would (and do) put my money on the opinion of PGCS over say PCI or ACG any day! However, what PCGS offers is a professional, informed opinion. Others may sometimes not agree and PCGS sometimes has to revise an opinion, often at a monetary loss.
FACT 2: The hobby as we know it today could not exist without third-party grading. The changes that have come about are overall positive, before 1986 there were only two opinions, that of the buyer and the seller neither of whom could claim objectivity.
If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:
<< <i>FACT 2: The hobby as we know it today could not exist without third-party grading. >>
i disagree. plastic has really had little impact on the hobby, though the impact on the business has been huge.
<< <i>before 1986 there were only two opinions, that of the buyer and the seller neither of whom could claim objectivity. >>
also totally untrue. even in 1875, you could get more than 2 opinions - by simply asking someone else (a friend, for example) what they thought. the misconception that you could only get 2 opinions before plastic co's appeared is bizarre.
"i disagree. plastic has really had little impact on the hobby, though the impact on the business has been huge."
And I will disagree with that. Thousands of new collectors are now totally hooked on certified coins and would not have begun to collect or continue to collect if it was necessary to take the risk of depending on themselves, dealers, or friends for advice. In addition the hobby has through the years added an entire new layer of investor only coin collectors that rely totally on the top certifiers to slab and set price guide lines. Most of these high end collectors are the very people that own many of the registry sets on PCGS, and these conservative investors would never put hundreds of thousands of dollars into these sets if there were no expert opinions, and guarantees, of some type on the grades. I also believe that much new interest has been developed in the general public, and if it were not for certified material they would not be collecting today. People have become accustomed to having things done for them, and starting into this hobby to collect a standard type set and learning nearly 1,800 different grades on various coins seems like an Insurmountable task, this work has been eliminated by certifiers. If we do indeed have an inflationary economy during the next few years I believe we will see tens of thousands of new collectors come in to the hobby due solely to the certifying companies.
<< <i>And I will disagree with that. Thousands of new collectors are now totally hooked on certified coins >>
for me, a plastic collector does not equate to a coin collector. so i stand by my previous statement that plastic co's have had little effect on the COIN hobby, other than the obvious effect of depleting the supply of unslabbed coins.
<< <i>Most of these high end collectors are the very people that own many of the registry sets on PCGS, and these conservative investors would never put hundreds of thousands of dollars into these sets if there were no expert opinions, and guarantees, of some type on the grades >>
that is why the are not "coin collectors", the are "coin investors", which is why the impact of plastic is on the BUSINESS, not the hobby.
I do believe that the advent of TPGs was vital to enable the current growing market that we have observed over the past seven years.
While yes, the state quarter program has introduced many to the hobby of coin collecting, I feel that without the TPGs, almost none of those newbies would stay within the hobby. Even if the collector never buys a slabbed coin, the existence of professional, guarenteed grading bolsters confidence in the validity of grading. Doesn't the fact that reputable, multi-million dollar companies that are based on the business plan of objective, unbiased and disinterested grading by professional numismatists exist and are accepted in the market place make you feel better about the money that you "invest" in the hobby.
How many of you have bought expensive coins on-line? If the coin was slabbed (which it most certainly was) would you have paid the same amount for the coin if it was raw? How often do we see newbies post on the board "I am going to my first coin show this weekend, what should I do?" or "Are there any good dealers within X-hours of where I live?" These budding collectors most certainly have bought coins before, and most likely have spent hundreds of dollars and those purchases most likely were made from the internet.
Would coin collecting be as popular as it is today without the internet? I don't think so. Would you buy as many coins on-line if it weren't for reputable TPGs?
I have to agree with DK on this one, and I want to preface my comments with the fact that this is just my opinion as someone new to the community. I am 25 yrs old, and was inspired to get into the hobby upon receiving my late Grandfather's rather large (to me) collection of raw coins.
I cannot afford to pay the high prices demanded for high grade coins, but that is okay. I have much more fun looking at ungraded coins in 2x2s selling for less than $30, trying to find coins to fill the holes in my albums. What makes it fun is the search behind finding the coin you want, and once you find it, deciding if it is in fact good enough to buy. Paying huge sums at the end of the search puts a damper on my excitement.
The only reason I can think of to even get a coin graded is if you have the intention of selling it (investment). Not that selling coins is a bad thing. I just think there is a difference between most collectors (buying to hold forever), dealers, and investers (buying to sell later), and the effect of grading coins has effected dealers and investers to a much greater degree than it has collectors.
Mark Piersall Random Collector www.marksmedals.com
<< <i>Would coin collecting be as popular as it is today without the internet? I don't think so. Would you buy as many coins on-line if it weren't for reputable TPGs? >>
here, i completely disagree. i believe that coin collecting is actually LESS popular today then it was, say 25 years ago. how can that be if more coins change today then ever before? simple, that PROVES that "coin collecting" is less popular - a "collector" is someone who "buys & holds", not someone who buys a coin then sells it 3 weeks later when he gets tired of it, or 3 months later because for whatever reasons, it's gone up in value.
now, if you'd of said that coin BUYING is more popular today & that it's due to the internet, i'd wholeheartedly agree. but coin COLLECTING is definitely on the decline. there are really very few folks out there who collect primarily for enjoyment, most buy coins today w/ speculation as the motivating factor. & quite honestly, the exorbitant prices demanded of common, ordinary coins today is repulsive to many would-be collectors who just want to a hobby they can afford to enjoy.
As an "old collector" it took me a long time to finally accept slabs. I HATED them when they first came out, but after a while I had to accept them. The problem is today is that many of the decent looking, higher grade raw coins that are in the market are raw for a reason. They almost always have something seriously wrong with them.
For example I was looking to upgrade my example of the Classic Head $5 gold piece (1834 - 8), I spotted a really nice looking raw coin in a dealer's inventory. The coin had me tempted and stumped for quite a while. Then after a couple of minutes I saw the problem. There was a small file mark on the rim where a rim bump had been removed.
As I collector, I think that I'm about as pure as you can get these days. I purchased tokens and medals at a time when everyone was telling me that I would never get my money out of them. And I was paying anywhere from $10 and $20 to a few thousand dollars for the pieces that I really wanted. Now I look like a genius because token and medal prices have gone up by leaps and bounds in recent years. But I never planned on it turning out that way.
When one is putting together a decent collection of nice, but not great coins (in my case VF or better for early coins and MS-64 or so for the later stuff), you can’t ignore the resale values because of the high cost. My type coins and other sets have cost me as much as my house over my lifetime. You can’t make purchases like that with out considering an exit strategy. As it has turned out my collection has been an excellent investment. Investment was NOT my top priority. In fact it was really almost no where to be seen. I just wanted to get most all of my money out if I had to.
Every collector, who is not a billionaire who has an ounce of sense, has to think like this. To me that does not diminish their standing as a numismatist. We have got to be prudent when you are talking about this amount of money.
PCGS and NGC slabs make coins a lot more liquid and saleable. And since I used to spend money on Capital Plastic holders, they have eliminated that expense as well.
I would pointedly disagree that there are fewer collectors today than there were years ago. If there were fewer collectors, numismatic publishing would be a smaller industry that it was years ago, yet today we have more research books that ever before.
There are loads of true collectors out there. They just don’t get very much press.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Today, true coin collecting (plugging holes in albums) is a mere fraction of what it was 50 years ago. I am talking about the percentage of the population who collect coins. I can explain why the numismatic press (coin periodicals) is larger today; advertising dollars. The fact that there are more reference books today is simply a by-product of time and technology.
I buy and sell coins that are both certified and raw. PCGS, NGC and ANACS coins do play an important roll in the hobby today, but they apparently play an even bigger role in the "coin business". When a rich guy walks up to my table....someone with more money than numismatic knowledge.....I alway recommend that they buy PCGS or NGC certified coins (big ticket items) until they know how to grade and authenticate for themselves. Plastic is important in that particular case.
i will admit i have the luxury that i take an attitude of "when i die, i don't really care what happens to the coins". i can afford to do this because, even though i'm well into 6 digits in terms of coin investment, the funds i leave behind in other investments to take care of survivors are 100% exclusive of the coins.
the point is, i just don't care whether a coin i buy today is gonna be "hot" or not, or sell at a profit, whatever. i'm very selective in the quality i buy, & the golden truth for me still has been that if the coins are in front of the right audience, the holder just doesn't matter (unless the holder is where all the value is, such as ultra moderns)
of course, i also have the advantage over many collctors of time, whereas coins i put away 30 years ago have skyrocketed in value, & i've done very well in that regard.
if i were a dealer, my attitude would be much different, too.
Yes, and the guys who are plugging holes in boards and albums with circulated coins by and large never get anywhere from a financial point of view. I learned that when I lost 75% of what I paid for a circulated set of Indian Cents ($310 received for a set in which I had spent over $1,200) that I collected as a kid.
Price increases trickle down from from the Mint State and Proof grades for common stuff. And in most cases the trickle does not amount to much unless you are looking at the key date coins in the set. The rest of the coins are pretty much "stuff."
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Bill, you are correct that the guys plugging holes do not get rich off of their sets. That's just the point. There was a time that most collected just for the thrill of collecting. That's why some who collected Connecticuts by die variety actually painted the attribution number right on the coin. I own some examples just because it is so fascinating to me.
Third party grading has completely changed the dynamics of coin collecting. I am not saying that's good or bad. It's just my opinion that things are more about money now than true coin collecting.
One can't afford to spend thousands of dollars that end up going to the poop chute for a collecting hobby. That’s why the stamp business is shot. Collectors learned that they got pennies on the dollar when they decided to sell their holdings.
Coins are not quite so bad, but still one can only go so far with a “pure collection.”
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
while this thread is back up, is evillageprowler going to give us some insight on the jade boyz "reputation" that he alluded to earlier? or did you all kiss & make up???
It is easy to see here that Dorkkarl, Jaderarecoin, and many others are purists when it comes to the hobby, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that attitude. When Dorkkarl says that “the exorbitant prices demanded of common, ordinary coins today is repulsive to many would-be collectors who just want a hobby they can afford to enjoy” I also think he has a very good point. It seems that a rising tide has lifted all boats that is unfortunate and will most likely end with a collapse of at least part of the market. When I posted a thread several months ago that the increased price of plastic was raising the entire market in all coins everyone thought that was crazy but it certainly is, and this is also unfortunate. Here are a couple of other good things that have come with the certified market. Many more rare coins are now seeing the light of day as inheritors are finding that granddads hobby might be worth selling. Also many dealers are making a good enough living with higher profit margin slabbed coins to commit full time to the business. As Bill points out many are truly hobbyists but also look to what nasty unknowns might come one’s way, and force a sale.
i am also on record that there are 2 distinct, separate hobbies at play here, numismatics, & numisplastics. both are legitimate pursuits, but i think the effects of either are all too often confused, whether by accident or on purpose.
there are items, such as say a 1998 pr-70 dcam roosevelt dime that inherently is worth about 2 bucks , but the plastic insert is worth (let's just say) 100 bucks. some collectors pursue these items because of the plastic insert, NOT because of the included coin. it's a perfectly legitimate & worthwhile pursuit. my only fear is when such a numisplastist "thinks" he's a coin collector, when in fact he's a slab collector.
again, 2 separate hobbies, both legit.
this is why i say slabs in reality have very little impact on coin collecting, they really form a separate & distinct hobby.
<< <i> I do believe that the advent of TPGs was vital to enable the current growing market that we have observed over the past seven years. >>
The only thing the growing market has done for me is made my hobby more expensive and priced me out of several areas.
<< <i>While yes, the state quarter program has introduced many to the hobby of coin collecting, I feel that without the TPGs, almost none of those newbies would stay within the hobby. >>
Statisticly, almost none will stay with the hobby anyway.
<< <i>Even if the collector never buys a slabbed coin, the existence of professional, guarenteed grading bolsters confidence in the validity of grading. >>
If this is true why did the sight unseen trading market fail?
<< <i>Doesn't the fact that reputable, multi-million dollar companies that are based on the business plan of objective, unbiased and disinterested grading by professional numismatists exist and are accepted in the market place make you feel better about the money that you "invest" in the hobby. >>
No, because I buy coins for my own enjoyment and I buy based on whether I like the coin and if I am willing to pay the asked price for it. Not on what someone says the grade is, or what some price guide says. The money I spend is entertainment money. Like what you would spend to see a show, take a vacation, go to Vegas and gamble, treat yourself to a fine dinner, a large screen tv, expand your movie collection etc. You don't expect to get a monetary return on things like these (and over your lifetime you probably do spend more on these things than you do for your house).
<< <i>How many of you have bought expensive coins on-line? If the coin was slabbed (which it most certainly was) would you have paid the same amount for the coin if it was raw? >>
I have, it wasn't, and I did.
<< <i>Would coin collecting be as popular as it is today without the internet? I don't think so. >>
I have to agree with that.
<< <i>Would you buy as many coins on-line if it weren't for reputable TPGs? >>
Comments
I can look at Jadecoin now and say this person acussed me repeatedly of namecalling and could only reference the remark i made as to the way the tone of his post presented itself...
this person was wrong to accuse me of name calling and so now I have reason to doubt whatever they have said concerning the pedigree, it seems very believeable to me that their version of the story will indeed make them out to be the victim as to what extent and what the truth is I don't know.
But I will again dispute the statement that the graders guess when the tough coins come in.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
that it's no wonder you have the reputation that you have amongst the dealer community
And what reputation would that be? I have a great reputation within the numismatic community. The people who don't like me are the ones who are afraid of the fact that I call it like I see it. I don't "play games". If you want to get into specifics and compare my business practices to that of others, then consider this: Jade Rare Coin is one of the very, very few dealers that offer a 100% return priviledge on ANY coin that we sell with NO LIMIT on time. That's because we stand behind our grading and pricing. And we don't play the crack-out game because we don't sell plastic......we sell coins. Those 2 facts positively separate us from many, including yourself.
I suggest that you cease with your grandstanding and inflammatory comments. Tell it straight, and save the fluff.
"Inflammatory"? Where? Who? What? When? I was the one who was attacked today and I asked for civility on the forum, rather than engage in a fight. "Tell it straight"? I stated my opinion, even though I know that it's out of favor with 95% of this forum and will isolate me from potential customers. I am not here to troll for business. I am here to discuss coins and offer my opinions. Isn't that about as straight as it gets? Of course I could post about things that have happened behind the scenes with the grading companies, but I am not here to start a riot. I am careful regarding the content of my experiences and opinions. If you read my earlier post in this thread, I ranked PCGS and NGC as the top 2 grading services. I don't want to get into the whole "is third party grading good for the hobby or bad for the hobby". That's a very big discussion.
I simply stated my opinion. If one were to do a search on JadeRareCoin on this forum, you would see that I post to answer member questions (i.e. attributions, grading opinions, etc.), to the best of my ability. I also post to offer praise when someone posts a coin that I like. In addition, I post when I have a question, especially on the World Coin Forum.
Now, when you do your search, you will also see that EVP seems to follow me around and accuse me of things, insult me and ridicule my opinions, just as he has done right here in this thread. EVP, why are you so fascinated by my opinion that you have to chase me around on the forum(s) and attempt to undermine my credibility?
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<< <i>I was the one who was attacked today and I asked for civility on the forum, >>
Oh please, where is the violin....
attacked..... hmmmm.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Now, when you do your search, you will also see that EVP seems to follow me around and accuse me of things, insult me and ridicule my opinions, just as he has done right here in this thread. EVP, why are you so fascinated by my opinion that you have to chase me around on the forum(s) and attempt to undermine my credibility?
>>
you underminded your own credibilty with the graders guessing bit, then the Lucy the name caller stuff....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Jade once did something similar to me in a totally unrelated thread not too long ago. In that thread, I asked him to stop nitpicking at specific phraseology. His reponse? That I stop doing it to him. I told him that I didn't even realize I was doing it. In fact, I hadn't been parsing words with him.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
EVP, here's the link to the thread you are referencing
Please read the thread and determine who is attacking whom. You seem to have a mission to silence me on the forums.
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EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Oh please, where is the violin.... >>
Here it is....
Baley is exactly correct,
a Third Party grade certification just an opinion, and as such, is not like a fixed "fact" about which a person who "doesn't know" the "answer" can "guess" and be either right or wrong.
On the other hand, certifying your coins is very important when it comes to your investment.
Look at the 17 bids on the 1893 S you posted. I hope all these people are RAW collectors because this coin is also likely to get body bagged from either NGC or PCGS. This is to say nothing of the poor buyer that originally bought this for $14,000 if the ebay sellers add is correct.
“GENUINE. I bought it from a collector who ordered it form a recent Coin World ad and paid a whopping $14,000 for it !”
I will have a table at CSNS this week in Milwaukee. Please stop by and say "HI". It's easy to find me; I am the guy without the brown nose.
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Is this your general opinion of those whose views differ from yours re the mainstream services? I think that comment of yours belies your other comment that we can all be friends here.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>that it's no wonder you have the reputation that you have amongst the dealer community
And what reputation would that be? I have a great reputation within the numismatic community. The people who don't like me are the ones who are afraid of the fact that I call it like I see it. I don't "play games". If you want to get into specifics and compare my business practices to that of others, then consider this: Jade Rare Coin is one of the very, very few dealers that offer a 100% return priviledge on ANY coin that we sell with NO LIMIT on time. That's because we stand behind our grading and pricing. And we don't play the crack-out game because we don't sell plastic......we sell coins. Those 2 facts positively separate us from many, including yourself.
I suggest that you cease with your grandstanding and inflammatory comments. Tell it straight, and save the fluff.
"Inflammatory"? Where? Who? What? When? I was the one who was attacked today and I asked for civility on the forum, rather than engage in a fight. "Tell it straight"? I stated my opinion, even though I know that it's out of favor with 95% of this forum and will isolate me from potential customers. I am not here to troll for business. I am here to discuss coins and offer my opinions. Isn't that about as straight as it gets? Of course I could post about things that have happened behind the scenes with the grading companies, but I am not here to start a riot. I am careful regarding the content of my experiences and opinions. If you read my earlier post in this thread, I ranked PCGS and NGC as the top 2 grading services. I don't want to get into the whole "is third party grading good for the hobby or bad for the hobby". That's a very big discussion.
I simply stated my opinion. If one were to do a search on JadeRareCoin on this forum, you would see that I post to answer member questions (i.e. attributions, grading opinions, etc.), to the best of my ability. I also post to offer praise when someone posts a coin that I like. In addition, I post when I have a question, especially on the World Coin Forum.
Now, when you do your search, you will also see that EVP seems to follow me around and accuse me of things, insult me and ridicule my opinions, just as he has done right here in this thread. EVP, why are you so fascinated by my opinion that you have to chase me around on the forum(s) and attempt to undermine my credibility? >>
I suggest you please back off of Lucy. She is a very kind lady and it takes alot to push her to her limits. Some of the things you say refer to how much you dispise certified grading. Like calling slabs "plastic". We all have opinions here. But some of the things you say you really need to stop. It may not seem like insults to you, ( and I see that your trying to help), but others interpute it different.
You gotta be kidding (no pun intended) me, right? She and EVP attacked me.
As far as calling slabs "plastic". What do you think they are made of? Metal? You go on to state that "we all have opinions here". Well, why am I not entitled to my opinion? If you go back and read everything that I post on these forums, I simply state my feelings about the slabbing industry. There are many, many, many people on the forums who only praise slabbing. I read their posts and consider their opinions. Then I state my opinions. Do you understand that not everybody will agree 100% of the time? The one thing that everyone (presumably) on this forum has in common is that we all love coins. Some like them raw and ever more like them slabbed. So be it. But now you are attacking me.
Also, remember in your post where EVERYONE attacked you last week (about the ANACS slab). Go back and read that thread. I was one of a very, very few members who supported you. Mainly because I don't like to see the attacks that take place here. I even offered to pay OUT OF MY POCKET to have your slab problem fixed.
Just a subtle reminder: I submit coins to PCGS, NGC and ANACS. I do in fact play the slabbing game in the sense that I submit at all. However, I do not crack and resubmit coins and play the "big game". That's where I draw the line and I state my opinion as such.
If you do not want me to state my honest opinion, then please just say so. (and I will respectfully and totally ignore you)
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<< <i>She and EVP attacked me. >>
because someone disagrees with your bogus statements, now you have been attacked....
again, you said, aieeeeee, the graders guess with tough coins, you got called on it, you know you can't back this claim up, so now your some victim that has been attacked....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
in his world, I guess everbody should conform to his way of thinking, less he feels attacked...
thats lame and weak.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Frattlaw, don't you dare lecture me and tell me what to look at one way or another, I am highly successful and rather wealthy and I achieved it without any of your 'pearls of wisdom', you and jadecoin and anybody else can think what you want, and I'll think what I want.
Yours is also just a opinion, and nothing more.... >>
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
in his world, I guess everbody should conform to his way of thinking, less he feels attacked...
Lucy, that's exactly my point; we DO NOT have to agree to share this fraternity known as coin collecting. Each is entitled to his or her opinion. Please....PLEASE.....go back and read this thread from the beginning. All that I did was state my opininon. Then you started to direct comments at me that were unneccessary.
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I asked for proof that the graders simply guess when dealing with tough coins as you put it...
But obviously you don't know what goes on in the grading room, therefore you are unable to answer, so it
seems then that you decided to adapt this 'Lucy has attacked me bit'.........
maybe to try and detract from your statement about the' guessing graders'... I dunno......
I commented that that post came off as allknowing and arrogant and I still believe it to be so.....You see that as a attack?
You need to grow thicker skin then that.....
but feel attacked then, thats your choice, and as you make these type of remarks, I'll call a spade a spade once again....
Unless you can show this board proof beyond a doubt that the graders play guessing games with the tough coins....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
What I don't understand is why you insist that I must prove my OPINION to you. I don't ask others to prove their opinions to me. For example, I did not ask you to prove your opinion that professional graders do not guess on difficult-to-grade coins. I just accept your opinion and I don't dislike you because we do not agree. What's the big deal?
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<< <i>A customer of ours has an 1807 draped bust quarter. Beautiful coin. Choice original VF-20. The coin was originally purchased by another client of ours in an ANACS VF-20 holder. The customer removed the coin (he only has raw coins in his collection). We purchaed the coin from him over a year ago after he found an upgrade. We sold the coin at a Chicago show as VF-20 raw. The new owner submitted the coin to ANACS. Came back as F-12. He called us and asked us for our opinion on the matter. We laughed and said that his coin was caught in a game; ANACS has been grading strictly lately in an attempt to appear as conservative as PCGS. That's the word on the street and he agreed. He then sent the coin to NGC. Came back in a body bag for being "bent". Laughable. He then sent it to PCGS. Came back in a body bag for "tooling". We can only assume that "tooling" is a broad category for other damage. Sent it back to NGC and it came back as VF-20. Then crossed it to PCGS at the same grade. So, here's a coin that ranged from 2 body bags to F-12 to VF-20. >>
it's a story everyone should read & understand. if that doesn't PROVE to you that grading is 100% subjective, nothing will.
btw, i happen to be VERY GLAD that grading is totally subjective. it's sad to me that so many folks seem to think that subjectivity in a hobby your meant to enjoy is a "bad" thing. as if it would be better had we nothing to discuss about when it comes to which coin's best, most attractive, most fun, etc. the right of every to GRADE FOR HIMSELF is the most noble tenet of this hobby.
<< <i>I worked with a very gifted staff of engineers..... we never sat around guessing....... we relied heavily on data and statistical anaylisis to drive our decisions and process changes.... Intel is now doing 300mm process that is state of the art and producing some astounding clock speeds on their Pentium chips... >>
that works well & good for measurable, mechanical processes, but you cannot "measure" the grade of a coin, you can ONLY "guess" it.
i can see lucybop's distinction between guessing & a professional opinion, i'll just say that for me, a professional opinion is still a guess, albeit maybe a very excellent guess. i agree that extremely qualified graders work at pcgs, ngc, anacs, but their entire profession of grading coins is based on GUESSING at the market value for a coin, & applying the corresponding grade. again, it's a very well educated guess, a professional opinion, based on heaps of SUBJECTIVE data, but it is still a guess than can often be wrong, & should be open to debate. the industry will be at rock bottom when it is no longer allowed to argue w/ a slabed grade.
what happened with upittman's coin is likely that the graders GUESSED the coin would not be acceptable to collectors who rely on plastic, so it got bodybagged. if i understand the jade boys comment to mean that difficult coins are more likely to get differing opinions, i would totally agree, & that's a good thing (that opinions/guesses can & do differ between people)
<< <i>If you would read carefully enough, you would know that Jade is the one who is trying to turn this thread into a mess with his outlandish portrayal of clueless, unprofessional graders huddled together throwing darts to deal with the toughies. Jade, I don't know what kind of game you're playing around here, but you are so beyond ridiculous that it's not funny. It seems like every comment I see you make is so far afield of objectivity that it's no wonder you have the reputation that you have amongst the dealer community. If you really want to help the collectors around here, I suggest that you cease with your grandstanding and inflammatory comments. Tell it straight, and save the fluff. >>
evillageprowler, i just gotta know, what's the "reputation" the jade boys "have amongst the dealer community"? PLEASE fill us in - you don't even mention if their reputation is good or bad...
K S
<< <i>What I don't understand is why you insist that I must prove my OPINION to you. I don't ask others to prove their opinions to me. For example, I did not ask you to prove your opinion that professional graders do not guess on difficult-to-grade coins. I just accept your opinion and I don't dislike you because we do not agree. What's the big deal? >>
Ok, its just a matter of opinion then, and my opinion of your intial post is that you have no idea what goes on in the grading room to make such a claim.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Lucy, I don't know if this is "proof beyond a doubt" or not, but it's something to certainly think about:
Link
Edited to fix link
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I know they don't get the grades right every time, but there are people that will always whine and bash when they find these examples, and never offer praise for the many many times the Grading companys get it correct. You will only hear the they guess or they suck or they don't have a clue or you must be a major submitor to get a good grade kind of storys, you'll never hear the success storys....
The people of these boards would be all over PCGs/NGC myself included if indeed we saw a undeniable trend that they simply guess when the tough coins come in....
They form a opinion based on skill, and more then one grader gives this opinion on a coin.
PCGs ran the grading contests, and those that did very well, did it because of skill, rather then sitting around guessing, and, there were tough coins in these contests.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>I know they don't get the grades right every time, but there are people that will always whine and bash when they find these examples, and never offer praise for the many many times the Grading companys get it correct. >>
i can only speak for myself, but the reason i don't praise any co., or any collector for that matter for getting grades "correct" is because there's not such thing as a "correct" grade to me.
however, when i agree w/ what pcgs or ngc, or even acg for that matter, called it, i will & have gladly post that i'm pleased w/ how they grade it.
1 other minor thing, since this thread made it back to page 1, i'd still be curious as to the aspect of the jade boys's "reputation" that evillageprowler was referring to. i don't think it's right for him to imply there's something wrong w/ a dealer's reputation on a (supposedly) widely-read public forum, & not explain.
K S
I do think that personal attacks have no place on here. We all have a certain level of sophistication or we wouldn't be spending our time here in the first place. That entitles all of us, even the self-professed "newbies" brave enough to stop lurking and start posting to a modicum of respect and dignity.
As for grading, well, that's the one we can tussle over forever. It seems that people vote with their feet (money). Three major grading services are well into their second decade. When they started, there were a couple of pages in auction catalogs with slabbed coins -- that's it. Today, auction catalogs are full of slabbed coins from them.
It obviously worked in the marketplace. I don't think any of us who have not worked as graders (or who do not have the real, true pipeline into the confidential communications in the grading room) do too well to take potshots at what the graders do. Their ten seconds with a coin, after having seen and graded hundreds of thousands, is well worth more than my taking all night gazing at one.
For my money, I buy the slabbed coins that I think are good coins, not for the plastic. I also collect raw coins, mainly AU's because they are prettier than lower level MS coins, and stick em in Dansco albums and it brings me as much or more joy than all the plastic I own.
I hate to see people dumping on good people who frequent this place. Let's all try to keep the level of discourse up where we don't have to do that.
Lawyers say that: if the law is on your side, argue the law; if the facts are on your side, argue the facts, and; if you have neither the facts nor the law going for you, then take off your shoe and bang loudly on the table in hopes that nobody will notice.
Glad to see that he/she returned.
Jade's anecdote about the early quarter is perhaps the best lesson on why not to rely too heavily on the TPGs. That said, without them, I would still be collecting heavily circulated common date large cents.
ok...i'm better!
FACT 2: The hobby as we know it today could not exist without third-party grading. The changes that have come about are overall positive, before 1986 there were only two opinions, that of the buyer and the seller neither of whom could claim objectivity.
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
<< <i>FACT 2: The hobby as we know it today could not exist without third-party grading. >>
i disagree. plastic has really had little impact on the hobby, though the impact on the business has been huge.
<< <i>before 1986 there were only two opinions, that of the buyer and the seller neither of whom could claim objectivity. >>
also totally untrue. even in 1875, you could get more than 2 opinions - by simply asking someone else (a friend, for example) what they thought. the misconception that you could only get 2 opinions before plastic co's appeared is bizarre.
K S
And I will disagree with that. Thousands of new collectors are now totally hooked on certified coins and would not have begun to collect or continue to collect if it was necessary to take the risk of depending on themselves, dealers, or friends for advice. In addition the hobby has through the years added an entire new layer of investor only coin collectors that rely totally on the top certifiers to slab and set price guide lines.
Most of these high end collectors are the very people that own many of the registry sets on PCGS, and these conservative investors would never put hundreds of thousands of dollars into these sets if there were no expert opinions, and guarantees, of some type on the grades. I also believe that much new interest has been developed in the general public, and if it were not for certified material they would not be collecting today. People have become accustomed to having things done for them, and starting into this hobby to collect a standard type set and learning nearly 1,800 different grades on various coins seems like an
Insurmountable task, this work has been eliminated by certifiers. If we do indeed have an inflationary economy during the next few years I believe we will see tens of thousands of new collectors come in to the hobby due solely to the certifying companies.
<< <i>And I will disagree with that. Thousands of new collectors are now totally hooked on certified coins >>
for me, a plastic collector does not equate to a coin collector. so i stand by my previous statement that plastic co's have had little effect on the COIN hobby, other than the obvious effect of depleting the supply of unslabbed coins.
<< <i>Most of these high end collectors are the very people that own many of the registry sets on PCGS, and these conservative investors would never put hundreds of thousands of dollars into these sets if there were no expert opinions, and guarantees, of some type on the grades >>
that is why the are not "coin collectors", the are "coin investors", which is why the impact of plastic is on the BUSINESS, not the hobby.
K S
While yes, the state quarter program has introduced many to the hobby of coin collecting, I feel that without the TPGs, almost none of those newbies would stay within the hobby. Even if the collector never buys a slabbed coin, the existence of professional, guarenteed grading bolsters confidence in the validity of grading. Doesn't the fact that reputable, multi-million dollar companies that are based on the business plan of objective, unbiased and disinterested grading by professional numismatists exist and are accepted in the market place make you feel better about the money that you "invest" in the hobby.
How many of you have bought expensive coins on-line? If the coin was slabbed (which it most certainly was) would you have paid the same amount for the coin if it was raw? How often do we see newbies post on the board "I am going to my first coin show this weekend, what should I do?" or "Are there any good dealers within X-hours of where I live?" These budding collectors most certainly have bought coins before, and most likely have spent hundreds of dollars and those purchases most likely were made from the internet.
Would coin collecting be as popular as it is today without the internet? I don't think so. Would you buy as many coins on-line if it weren't for reputable TPGs?
I cannot afford to pay the high prices demanded for high grade coins, but that is okay. I have much more fun looking at ungraded coins in 2x2s selling for less than $30, trying to find coins to fill the holes in my albums. What makes it fun is the search behind finding the coin you want, and once you find it, deciding if it is in fact good enough to buy. Paying huge sums at the end of the search puts a damper on my excitement.
The only reason I can think of to even get a coin graded is if you have the intention of selling it (investment).
Not that selling coins is a bad thing. I just think there is a difference between most collectors (buying to hold forever), dealers, and investers (buying to sell later), and the effect of grading coins has effected dealers and investers to a much greater degree than it has collectors.
Random Collector
www.marksmedals.com
<< <i>Would coin collecting be as popular as it is today without the internet? I don't think so. Would you buy as many coins on-line if it weren't for reputable TPGs? >>
here, i completely disagree. i believe that coin collecting is actually LESS popular today then it was, say 25 years ago. how can that be if more coins change today then ever before? simple, that PROVES that "coin collecting" is less popular - a "collector" is someone who "buys & holds", not someone who buys a coin then sells it 3 weeks later when he gets tired of it, or 3 months later because for whatever reasons, it's gone up in value.
now, if you'd of said that coin BUYING is more popular today & that it's due to the internet, i'd wholeheartedly agree. but coin COLLECTING is definitely on the decline. there are really very few folks out there who collect primarily for enjoyment, most buy coins today w/ speculation as the motivating factor. & quite honestly, the exorbitant prices demanded of common, ordinary coins today is repulsive to many would-be collectors who just want to a hobby they can afford to enjoy.
K S
yup.....
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For example I was looking to upgrade my example of the Classic Head $5 gold piece (1834 - 8), I spotted a really nice looking raw coin in a dealer's inventory. The coin had me tempted and stumped for quite a while. Then after a couple of minutes I saw the problem. There was a small file mark on the rim where a rim bump had been removed.
As I collector, I think that I'm about as pure as you can get these days. I purchased tokens and medals at a time when everyone was telling me that I would never get my money out of them. And I was paying anywhere from $10 and $20 to a few thousand dollars for the pieces that I really wanted. Now I look like a genius because token and medal prices have gone up by leaps and bounds in recent years. But I never planned on it turning out that way.
When one is putting together a decent collection of nice, but not great coins (in my case VF or better for early coins and MS-64 or so for the later stuff), you can’t ignore the resale values because of the high cost. My type coins and other sets have cost me as much as my house over my lifetime. You can’t make purchases like that with out considering an exit strategy. As it has turned out my collection has been an excellent investment. Investment was NOT my top priority. In fact it was really almost no where to be seen. I just wanted to get most all of my money out if I had to.
Every collector, who is not a billionaire who has an ounce of sense, has to think like this. To me that does not diminish their standing as a numismatist. We have got to be prudent when you are talking about this amount of money.
PCGS and NGC slabs make coins a lot more liquid and saleable. And since I used to spend money on Capital Plastic holders, they have eliminated that expense as well.
I would pointedly disagree that there are fewer collectors today than there were years ago. If there were fewer collectors, numismatic publishing would be a smaller industry that it was years ago, yet today we have more research books that ever before.
There are loads of true collectors out there. They just don’t get very much press.
Today, true coin collecting (plugging holes in albums) is a mere fraction of what it was 50 years ago. I am talking about the percentage of the population who collect coins. I can explain why the numismatic press (coin periodicals) is larger today; advertising dollars. The fact that there are more reference books today is simply a by-product of time and technology.
I buy and sell coins that are both certified and raw. PCGS, NGC and ANACS coins do play an important roll in the hobby today, but they apparently play an even bigger role in the "coin business". When a rich guy walks up to my table....someone with more money than numismatic knowledge.....I alway recommend that they buy PCGS or NGC certified coins (big ticket items) until they know how to grade and authenticate for themselves. Plastic is important in that particular case.
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the point is, i just don't care whether a coin i buy today is gonna be "hot" or not, or sell at a profit, whatever. i'm very selective in the quality i buy, & the golden truth for me still has been that if the coins are in front of the right audience, the holder just doesn't matter (unless the holder is where all the value is, such as ultra moderns)
of course, i also have the advantage over many collctors of time, whereas coins i put away 30 years ago have skyrocketed in value, & i've done very well in that regard.
if i were a dealer, my attitude would be much different, too.
K S
Price increases trickle down from from the Mint State and Proof grades for common stuff. And in most cases the trickle does not amount to much unless you are looking at the key date coins in the set. The rest of the coins are pretty much "stuff."
Bill, you are correct that the guys plugging holes do not get rich off of their sets. That's just the point. There was a time that most collected just for the thrill of collecting. That's why some who collected Connecticuts by die variety actually painted the attribution number right on the coin. I own some examples just because it is so fascinating to me.
Third party grading has completely changed the dynamics of coin collecting. I am not saying that's good or bad. It's just my opinion that things are more about money now than true coin collecting.
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One can't afford to spend thousands of dollars that end up going to the poop chute for a collecting hobby. That’s why the stamp business is shot. Collectors learned that they got pennies on the dollar when they decided to sell their holdings.
Coins are not quite so bad, but still one can only go so far with a “pure collection.”
K S
When I posted a thread several months ago that the increased price of plastic was raising the entire market in all coins everyone thought that was crazy but it certainly is, and this is also unfortunate.
Here are a couple of other good things that have come with the certified market. Many more rare coins are now seeing the light of day as inheritors are finding that granddads hobby might be worth selling. Also many dealers are making a good enough living with higher profit margin slabbed coins to commit full time to the business.
As Bill points out many are truly hobbyists but also look to what nasty unknowns might come one’s way, and force a sale.
there are items, such as say a 1998 pr-70 dcam roosevelt dime that inherently is worth about 2 bucks , but the plastic insert is worth (let's just say) 100 bucks. some collectors pursue these items because of the plastic insert, NOT because of the included coin. it's a perfectly legitimate & worthwhile pursuit. my only fear is when such a numisplastist "thinks" he's a coin collector, when in fact he's a slab collector.
again, 2 separate hobbies, both legit.
this is why i say slabs in reality have very little impact on coin collecting, they really form a separate & distinct hobby.
K S
K S
EVP, I am still waiting to hear the details about our "reputation" that you eluded to but never ellaborated upon. Waiting.........
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<< <i> I do believe that the advent of TPGs was vital to enable the current growing market that we have observed over the past seven years. >>
The only thing the growing market has done for me is made my hobby more expensive and priced me out of several areas.
<< <i>While yes, the state quarter program has introduced many to the hobby of coin collecting, I feel that without the TPGs, almost none of those newbies would stay within the hobby. >>
Statisticly, almost none will stay with the hobby anyway.
<< <i>Even if the collector never buys a slabbed coin, the existence of professional, guarenteed grading bolsters confidence in the validity of grading. >>
If this is true why did the sight unseen trading market fail?
<< <i>Doesn't the fact that reputable, multi-million dollar companies that are based on the business plan of objective, unbiased and disinterested grading by professional numismatists exist and are accepted in the market place make you feel better about the money that you "invest" in the hobby. >>
No, because I buy coins for my own enjoyment and I buy based on whether I like the coin and if I am willing to pay the asked price for it. Not on what someone says the grade is, or what some price guide says. The money I spend is entertainment money. Like what you would spend to see a show, take a vacation, go to Vegas and gamble, treat yourself to a fine dinner, a large screen tv, expand your movie collection etc. You don't expect to get a monetary return on things like these (and over your lifetime you probably do spend more on these things than you do for your house).
<< <i>How many of you have bought expensive coins on-line? If the coin was slabbed (which it most certainly was) would you have paid the same amount for the coin if it was raw? >>
I have, it wasn't, and I did.
<< <i>Would coin collecting be as popular as it is today without the internet? I don't think so. >>
I have to agree with that.
<< <i>Would you buy as many coins on-line if it weren't for reputable TPGs? >>
Considering I don't buy slabbed coins, yes.