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Newbie Question About PCGS Grading
upittman
Posts: 8
Hello All:
I'm new to the hobby and sent my first coin in for grading using the free membership. What I sent was an 1894 Morgan Dollar. Actually it was my mother-in-law's coin that she wants to get rid of (along with a bunch of other coins). Anyway, being new to the hobby I figured I'd try out PCGS to see how everything works, since this coin would be worth slabbing. I just checked the grade online and they said it was "Artificially Colored"!!!! I know that she stored it in a plastic tube wrapped in tin foil for years (I know, why didn't she use sandpaper). There were other coins in the tube as well. Now to be honest, the coin is very dark - not rainbow colored like you'd expect it to be if someone was attempting to tone the coin for sale. I have a very terrible scan of it, but this coin on EBay is very close in color
Dark Morgan . Can anyone shed some light on this for me, because it was my understanding that a coin didn't have to shine and sparkle to be graded. Any suggestions on what to do? Should I try selling it as-is, or is there something else I can do. As far as wear goes, this coin only has 2-3 scratches on the surfaces. Until now I've been happy with PCGS...but this is not a good start for me. The worst part is I'm not even a Morgan fan...as the first set I'm working on is my favorite - SBAs.
I'm new to the hobby and sent my first coin in for grading using the free membership. What I sent was an 1894 Morgan Dollar. Actually it was my mother-in-law's coin that she wants to get rid of (along with a bunch of other coins). Anyway, being new to the hobby I figured I'd try out PCGS to see how everything works, since this coin would be worth slabbing. I just checked the grade online and they said it was "Artificially Colored"!!!! I know that she stored it in a plastic tube wrapped in tin foil for years (I know, why didn't she use sandpaper). There were other coins in the tube as well. Now to be honest, the coin is very dark - not rainbow colored like you'd expect it to be if someone was attempting to tone the coin for sale. I have a very terrible scan of it, but this coin on EBay is very close in color
Dark Morgan . Can anyone shed some light on this for me, because it was my understanding that a coin didn't have to shine and sparkle to be graded. Any suggestions on what to do? Should I try selling it as-is, or is there something else I can do. As far as wear goes, this coin only has 2-3 scratches on the surfaces. Until now I've been happy with PCGS...but this is not a good start for me. The worst part is I'm not even a Morgan fan...as the first set I'm working on is my favorite - SBAs.
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Comments
And welcome to the world of PCGS Body Bags. There are many things that PCGS looks for when evaluating the toning on a coin. Many are highly subjective and their assesments are not always correct. If you know how to use the forum search try searching "Artificial Toning" to learn more.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
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<< <i>Thanks for the tip. I searched the boards and found an interesting message. It suggests that if the coin were submitted by a dealer that it wouldn't have been considered artificial toning. Perhaps I should go that route? >>
Upittman, if your not sure what a "bodybag" is (As I didn't know) I refer it to a coin coffin. NGC and PCGS will return your coin unslabbed, in a small plastic bag along with the reason why they did not grade or encapsule (Slab) it. They do not refund your money. This includes artifical toning, counterfeits, cleaned coins, and other problems. A good service that will always slab your coin is called ANACS(Unless it is fake). The holders are smaller and easier to manage and even if the coin is cleaned, has artifical toning, etc, they will slab it. It's a great alternative and they are reliable. Most people refer ANACS to the "top 3" after NGC. (#1 is PCGS, #2 NGC, and #3 ANACS). They are also the most reliable TPG (Third party grading service) to encapsule problem coins.
I'm new to coin collecting, welcome to the boards. There's a wealth of knowledge on these boards. I hope you make the best of it.
Good luck!
Edited to add: Here's a big Fart welcome to ya! (From Fartman
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
K S
Mark
None of the grading services are the experts that they want you to think they are. When they are faced with grading a difficult to grade coin, then it really comes down to guessing. That probably explains the fact that a bagged coin will eventually be certified, if you waste enough time and money to keep resubmitting.
You are better off to leave your coins raw.
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I had a Franklin with very similar toning to your Morgan get a bodybag also for color. That was over a year ago, Since then I have had another bodybag, a Washie and I couldn't argue with it, the coin was iffy....
I have submitted hundreds of toned coins and have had them all holdered with the two exceptions mentioned above.....
I do understand that iwith some of the toners I sent in, a bodybag or two could result...
Your Morgie didn't get graded, however, study this coin and try not to have a owners bais, and learn from it.
Use this knowledge to aide you in future submissions..... Try again, submit away!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
if your coin was stored & tin, the resulting awful tone i'd expect will appropriately result in a bodybag every time you submit it, so yes, i'd agree w/ the jade boys that your wasting time & $$$ at pcgs. send it to anacs.
alternatively, it is an appropriate candidate for being curated, & subsequently might be a candidate for the plastic co. of your choice.
to be blunt, overall, it's probably not worth plastic, unless we're talking unc. if not, consign it to a good dealer.
K S
This coin has been in my collection (slabbed) for at least 15 years.
Everyone I showed this coin to said to send it in as it was undergraded by at least 1 probably 2 points, and nobody thought the toning was other than natural (and the people I showed the coin to are in the business).
I get the Email notice that it has been graded and when I check the website, ARTIFICIAL COLOR!
I will not be renewing my membership with PCGS (I refuse to play the "submit it until it slabs" game).
Jim
For those of you whom are not convinced that slabbing is a game, consider this story:
A customer of ours has an 1807 draped bust quarter. Beautiful coin. Choice original VF-20. The coin was originally purchased by another client of ours in an ANACS VF-20 holder. The customer removed the coin (he only has raw coins in his collection). We purchaed the coin from him over a year ago after he found an upgrade. We sold the coin at a Chicago show as VF-20 raw. The new owner submitted the coin to ANACS. Came back as F-12. He called us and asked us for our opinion on the matter. We laughed and said that his coin was caught in a game; ANACS has been grading strictly lately in an attempt to appear as conservative as PCGS. That's the word on the street and he agreed. He then sent the coin to NGC. Came back in a body bag for being "bent". Laughable. He then sent it to PCGS. Came back in a body bag for "tooling". We can only assume that "tooling" is a broad category for other damage. Sent it back to NGC and it came back as VF-20. Then crossed it to PCGS at the same grade. So, here's a coin that ranged from 2 body bags to F-12 to VF-20.
Does this sound like a group of experts to you?
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when Jade makes this statement:
<< <i>None of the grading services are the experts that they want you to think they are. When they are faced with grading a difficult to grade coin, then it really comes down to guessing. >>
I have to ask on what basis is this statement made? It is mearly a opinion, if any of the Jade boys were graders at one time and can really verify something like this.
Now if Mark Feld or Andy Lustwig make this statement, atleast they were graders at one time and would have more basis for such a claim.
but Jadecoin? Its simply a opinion and one I disagree with.
That above quote is the kind of stuff that makes these message boards less and less enjoyable to me....
How many here think that Mark or Andy would say yeah, with diffulcult coins we all gathered around and guessed?
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Lucy,
Yes, it is just my opinion. Isn't that what a public forum is for? To express each others individual opinions? Why does that make this place less enjoyable for you?
Also, what makes Feldolinguini's opinion or Mr.Eureka's opinon any more valid than my opinion? "Opinion" is the key word.
On what do I base my opinion? Experience. Did you not read the example that I illustrated in my post? 2 body bags, F-12 and VF-20.....all on one coin within 12 months.
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You don't know what really happens when the graders are considering a diffulcult coin, do you?
Do you sell slabb'd coins? If so, guess your part of the game, as you put it....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
The grading services spend, oh, several seconds on a coin when grading it. Is that long enough to fully evaluate the coin and make a reasoned, logical conclusion to it's grade and condition? Perhaps if it were a 1999 NJ state quarter. But with the older, more classics coins I just don't think that the big 3 see them enough to be able to really give a accurate grade in 6 seconds!
Granted it might be comparing apples to oranges when you are comparing a 1807 bust quarter and a 1953 Frankie. How many Frankies does PCGS grade as compared to bust quarters?
And as far as Mark or Andy saying it was guessing -- does anybody believe they would insult the 2 companies they worked for, have a relationship with in order so that they might continue to deal, as well as put themselves down and admit to something less than professional. Lucy -- sometimes you have to look beyond who is saying something and look behind why they are saying it. No offense to anyone, but if you don't think "politics" comes into play on this board, then you really don't understand people.
Michael
Yours is also just a opinion, and nothing more....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Lucy, I happen to be very close friends with a dealer who was a professional grader for 2 years. And, yes, I do play the game to some degree. I sell coins; some certified and some raw. Again, I sell coins....not plastic. There are several people right here on this forum who will stand up and confirm that I don't always agree with the grade on slabbed coins. I state my grading opinion in conjunction with the TPG's opinion. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower. Doing this can often be financially detrimental.
The point to my previous posts is that the consistency of "professional" grading lately is objectionable, in my opinion.
I am sorry that my opinions forced you to resort to name calling and personal insults.
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<< <i>I am highly successful and rather wealthy and I achieved it without any of your 'pearls of wisdom', >>
Lucy -- I don't remember ever attacking you personally, or calling into question how successful or wealthy you are? Why is this relevant to the discussion at hand?
But I'll try again -- Lucy -- please provide YOUR opinion then --- a rational, logical explanation as to the situation as explained by Jade? You're extremely intelligent, this shouldn't be difficult. (and I do mean that.
Michael
You made that statement, I rebutted and said you don't know what is going on behind the scenes with a diffulcult coin.
Why don't you offer conclusive undeniable proof, that with tough or diffulcult coins, the graders just start guess...
Or retract that statement.....
You have friends, so do I......
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>
<< <i>I am highly successful and rather wealthy and I achieved it without any of your 'pearls of wisdom', >>
Lucy -- I don't remember ever attacking you personally, or calling into question how successful or wealthy you are? Why is this relevant to the discussion at hand?
But I'll try again -- Lucy -- please provide YOUR opinion then --- a rational, logical explanation as to the situation as explained by Jade? You're extremely intelligent, this shouldn't be difficult. (and I do mean that.
Michael >>
I don't have to provide sqwat to you, you can run around and feel that, in your own words:
<< <i>but if you don't think "politics" comes into play on this board, then you really don't understand people.
>>
I'm not here for your approval or for you to say i'm intelligent, I'm here to learn and to share and to offer insight and to try and be a positive force on these boards...
Jade claims that the graders start guessing when faced with diffulcult coins and I'm saying bullcrap!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Regarding proof, why do I need to prove my opinion to you. I am an expert on only one thing; my opinion. But, for the sake of objectiveness, I will modify my statement for you:
Lately, professional graders are either guessing, abhorently inconsistent or simply not qualified to grade early American coins.
PS - one of many, many examples is the draped bust quarter that I referenced in an earlier post. I will post more examples later today.
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where are you getting off with the name calling bit.
you need to relax and calm down, fact is, you made a claim you know you can't support or prove....
sure people will have stories as yours, but i'm certian there are many many successful stories to counter yours....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Jade claims that the graders start guessing when faced with diffulcult coins and I'm saying bullcrap! >>
You are deluding yourself! Anytime a grader thinks -- "gee, I'm not sure about this one...." that's a guess. It might be a good guess, but it's still a guess. Not every grader can get every coin right. Not every grader has a complete and full understanding of every year, mintmark of every series. Who goes to work and is 100% accurate all the time? Never makes a mistake or takes an educated guess? No one, not even the graders at PCGS, NGC, or ANACS. Perhaps Lucy, but no one else!
<< <i>I'm not here for your approval or for you to say i'm intelligent, >>
Did I ever say you were?
<< <i>I don't have to provide sqwat to you, >>
No you don't, but since you're made a rather strong statement, I would think that you would want to at least defend it in some manner that is reasonable intelligent and logical -- but if not, as in your own words --
<< <i>I'm here to learn and to share and to offer insight and to try and be a positive force on these boards... >>
Michael
can you offer proof that will stand up in a court of law that the graders sit around guessing when it comes to diffulcult coins?
prove it....
and to all the folks that are reading this thread, notice that jadecoin continues to accuse me of namecalling....
where did this occur?
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>can you offer proof that will stand up in a court of law that the graders sit around guessing when it comes to diffulcult coins? >>
Actually, I could offer proof, that would stand up in court, that the TPGs do worse then guess at grades on your coins -- much worse. But I can't really reveal that here. Sorry.
Either way, what's the point? I really think Jade was trying to tell a newbie, don't rely on the plastic and the grade on it. I see that as being extremely helpful advice. Don't you?
Michael
The same way I wouldn't say that professional lawyers guess with diffulcult interpritations of the laws during diffulcult cases...
the graders are highly skilled individuals and they give their professional opinions, and I never anywhere ever in any of my posts sinced I joined this forum said they are 100% accurate.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
One quick example (I am busy): ....your arrogant and allknowing....
Well, I may be "allknowing", but I am certainly not arrogant.
___________________
I will state my opinion again: TPG's do indeed guess on the tougher to grade coins. Period. This could easily be proven in a court of law. It doesn't mean that their guesses are not backed up by some knowledge. In my opinion, they just don't have enough knowledge about certain series or types of coins to be selling their services. But, this is a free enterprise society, so they can sell whatever they want. Right here on this forum, there have been numerous examples of colonial coins that were graded EF by reknowned colonial coin experts that have migrated to MS slabs. Shall I dig up those threads and revive the controversy?
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"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
If it sheds any light on the subject for you, please take a look at this thread that was just started today by another forum member:
Whizzed coin in a PCGS holder
Some coins are unfairly body bagged, and some are unjustly certified. It works both ways and it's true for all grading services.
And just for the record, let me state that I rank PCGS and NGC at the top of all of the grading services. They are the lesser of many evils.
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Submit your coins with confidence, yes you may get a bodybag, yes you may not agree with the grade...
I find that we tend to see our coins better then what they actually might be.....
When you take your lumps, carefully examine the coins upon their return, and if PCGs was correct, use it as a learning tool....
I'll tell you cats, it is very satisfying and can be very rewarding when you do hit some good grades... When that occurs, study those coins, and search for those types of raw coins to submit, you'll find that you will do rather well.........
When it comes to toned coins, IMHO, there is always the chance of a bodybag, but this is also a chance of a nice grade bump due to pretty toning with great eye appeal...
I sent in a gorgegous Lincoln cent...... it may get bagg'd for color, but this coin was so stunnning I felt it is worth the $16 to see what PCGs will think of it.......
The graders look at thousands of coins....... You can't help but to develope a very sharp eye by doing so, atleast it has worked for me....
by examining literally thousands of graded and raw coins, I have really finely tuned my grading eye.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
And actually lawyers do guess. We guess at what a judge or jury will do with a particular case, it's fact pattern and the relevant laws. Any lawyer that tells you he's an expert and wins all his cases is a sham. Remember they call it "practicing law" for a reason, someday a few of us might get it right.
Michael
I'll speak for my profession now...
at Intel we developed cutting edge technology...
I worked with a very gifted staff of engineers.....
we never sat around guessing....... we relied heavily on data and statistical anaylisis to drive our decisions and process changes....
Intel is now doing 300mm process that is state of the art and producing some astounding clock speeds on their Pentium chips...
In my 17 year career there, I was involved in many high level meetings with professionals at the Senior management level....... we weren't into guessing....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I am seeing guessing as being different from a professional opinion......
especially in the context of jades original post where this statement was made.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
a Third Party grade certification just an opinion, and as such, is not like a fixed "fact" about which a person who "doesn't know" the "answer" can "guess" and be either right or wrong.
Show a coin to a different grader(s), different day, and get possibly slightly varying opinions, which if taken numerous times from lots of "experts" will form a normal or bell-shaped distribution.
For example, a bell distribution of grading opinions based on a picture of an unc. SLQ
yes, day to day opinions may vary, but you cannot technically "guess" about something subjective, because EVERY opinion is a guess by that definition.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I personally think that the grades provided on a slab are basically subject to interpretation. That's why I also think playing the plastic game and resubmission game is nonsense. Use the grade on the slab as estimation of a coin's grade + or - 2 as a variable and you'll be fine. (PCGS, NGC & ANACS)
Michael
<< <i> interpretation >>
Thats how you spell that darn word!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
What is it about you that you have to wade into every argument to show off how well you can twist and turn the verbiage into your advantage? If you would read carefully enough, you would know that Jade is the one who is trying to turn this thread into a mess with his outlandish portrayal of clueless, unprofessional graders huddled together throwing darts to deal with the toughies. And, don't raise the specter of politics and proving whatever. It is immaterial to how this anger got started.
Jade,
I don't know what kind of game you're playing around here, but you are so beyond ridiculous that it's not funny. It seems like every comment I see you make is so far afield of objectivity that it's no wonder you have the reputation that you have amongst the dealer community. If you really want to help the collectors around here, I suggest that you cease with your grandstanding and inflammatory comments. Tell it straight, and save the fluff.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Jim
<< <i>What is it about you that you have to wade into every argument to show off how well you can twist and turn the verbiage into your advantage? If you would read carefully enough, you would know that Jade is the one who is trying to turn this thread into a mess with his outlandish portrayal of clueless, unprofessional graders huddled together throwing darts to deal with the toughies. And, don't raise the specter of politics and proving whatever. It is immaterial to how this anger got started.
>>
My advantage? What advantage? I'm not professionally tied to one of the largest dealers in the country. I don't sit behind a dealer booth at major coin shows. I'm merely a collector -- not even a high level collector at that. Just your average Joe Smoe collector. I have no agenda or axe to grind or butt to kiss. I really don't see Jade as trying to protrait graders as clueless, unprofessional or throwing darts. Rather I see them as educated experienced professionals that on occasion come up short or incorrect on a particular coin or coins. Everyone makes mistakes. I think Jade as well as others that have posted to this thread, including I, are saying don't buy into the certified coin BS. Its a fallacy. While it is better then what was apparently available in the market place 30 years ago, its still just an opinion. An opinion that dealers use to maximize profits.
Michael
Edited to add: And if Jade has the opinion you seem to think, I feel he has every right to, based on the BS he was put through by one of the major TPGs in regards to a certain pedigree.
<< <i> An opinion that dealers use to maximize profits. >>
its also a opinion that collectors use to garantee authenticity.....
such as a 16d Merc, 1909s VDB Lincoln, Early gold, ect...........
It is a means for collectors to buy for the most part acurately graded coins as opposed to some raw dealers that sell sliders as choice BU's...
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
First, to the original questions presented by the thread originator...
<< <i>Can anyone shed some light on this for me, because it was my understanding that a coin didn't have to shine and sparkle to be graded. Any suggestions on what to do? Should I try selling it as-is, or is there something else I can do. >>
Uppitman, a coin definitely need not "shine and sparkle to be graded". Without seeing images, however, it is impossible for us to give you truly meaningful advice. With images, we might be able to answer your questions, but even then, it is not a certainty. If you can post some pictures we will try to assist you.
To Lucy, Jade, Michael and others:
We often hear about the inaccuracies and inconsistencies of the major grading companies - it is a given that they are imperfect and far from perfectly consistent. But, what we rarely hear about are the countless situations when they ARE consistent, to the precise numerical grade. It happens repeatedly every day without any fanfare or recognition.
Many times at shows I hear submitters complaining about how brutal the major grading services are, but, at the same time, the complainers add something to the effect of "I submitted 80 coins and none of them up-graded - they down-graded 6 of them and the other 74 graded the same". Think about that for a moment. That is a consistency rate of 92.5% - not bad.
With respect to comments about "games" and "guessing" - we can easily get into semantics and go round and round. However, instead, I will comment on my real life experiences, as a grader at NGC for 7 years.
I never discussed or heard from anyone at NGC, anything about trying to increase business by playing games, being tight or inconsistent, etc. When we assigned grades to coins we often had disagreements, due to the subjectivity of grading. We talked (and sometimes argued) about those differences in opinions and, one way or another, arrived at a final grade. Call it guessing if you want. I prefer to refer to it as giving an informed (expert) opinion.
<< <i>its also a opinion that collectors use to garantee authenticity..... >>
Is it also an opinion a collector can use to guaranty pedigree?
Michael