Lest we forget, there is a lot more to the actions of ACG than simply "subjective" grading. Some of it came out in the ANA hearings, and much more will come out during discovery for this suit.
Isn't there something in the law(s) somewhere that says that the sale of a coin(s) cannot legally be graded more than 2 points higher that the accepted standard for the industry?
With everything that did come out during the ANA hearings, I'm surprised at this law suit. I wonder if the plantiffs lawyers are aware of the findings of the ANA hearings.
<< <i>Isn't there something in the law(s) somewhere that says that the sale of a coin(s) cannot legally be graded more than 2 points higher that the accepted standard for the industry? >>
I don't think so, but as others have pointed out, there is a whole body of law that holds appraisers in other fields, such as real estate, liable for negligent acts that deviate from an industry standard, such as grossly misstating the value of a home. Consumer law in some states also defines as fraud the misrepresentation of products or the selling of products known to be defective, and that standard is applied fairly broadly in some areas. Given the trends toward regulation of the sale of other products, I would expect it's only a matter of time before some judge or government agency finds that coin dealers who don't meet certain accepted industry standards of grading and disclosure of defects are violating the law.
<< <i>If all we are ever going to receive from these certifying companies is just opinions that can vary from a body bad at one place, to an MS coin at another, why have we all bought into this? When PCGS and NGC got these companies rolling in the mid 80’s was there not an implicate promise of expert opinions that would be the same from all experts in the field. Is that what we have now? ... In the case of assayers, surveyors, and many other property appraisers and evaluators if there are drastic mistakes made in these “expert certifications” the certifiers are held responsible for loss. Only in our area of collecting and investment is it deemed all right to make mistakes, and pay no penalty. I really don’t understand why very few of my brothers and sisters here find that our current situation is acceptable. Are not many of us taking the same risks as people in other personal property acquisitions? >>
We didn't all "buy into it." (Take a walk on the Dark Side sometime.) Moreover, the displacement of "technical grading" by "market grading" incurs an even greater degree of subjectivity to grading since market value is much more an "opinion" -- and subject to the vagaries thereof -- and one for which there is no stable standard (and probably cannot be). Of course, the Hagers' statements at the ANA hearing about what constitutes their standard implies that they are chiefly "technical" -- which would suggest that their grading should at least be more consistent than their main competitors who market grade, yet I've heard no testimony nor evidence that this is the case (just the opposite). What it comes down to is, live by the slab, die by the slab.
<< <i>While there is and always has been subjectivity associated with grading, the FACT is, the world's best graders achieve a mathematically signficant amount of consistency. >>
Yep, 75% agreement (See world series of grading scores.)
<< <i>Isn't there something in the law(s) somewhere that says that the sale of a coin(s) cannot legally be graded more than 2 points higher that the accepted standard for the industry? >>
Not that I'm aware of, but there are consumer protections laws and unfair and deceptive business practices law that allow for private Attorney General enforcement -- at least here in California. These types of laws can be utilized for situations were a consumer felt as though he/she was being defrauded or overcharged by a particular company. I would think this could apply to grading services and the rather inconsistent and always shifting standards -- however, that would be a rather difficult case. A better case could be made in regards to graded counterfeits, "mechanical errors" and the such.
So how about this? The ANA sets up a grading SCHOOL. Each and every professional grader must go to the school and be certified before they go to work in the industry as a professional grader. Just like many other professions that determine the value of the publics properties they must have continuing education and be tested every couple of years to keep up with their skills. Also like many other professions they have a small seal that is placed on every coin they grade, weather they work for PCGS, NGC, ACG, etc. Also like other professions they are responsible for their work, and if they do a great job they get a reputation and better pay, if they consistently do a bad job they get their certification taken away. This system would also take away the power that their boss, at say NGC for example, might have to tell them “we have lots of work to do boys so get these coins out every ten seconds”.
...something congress did in a previous suit, antitrust perhaps, anyway I do remember some documentation of a "2 grade rule". Anybody else hear of such a thing?
When I put it on ebay, The Original owner of the coin email me and said that it was Body Bagged from PCGS for being AT so he sent it to ACG. So you tell me if You think it's AT?
how so? yu ever handled chlorine? its quite a noxious gas that should not be handled outside of a really good fume hood. besides it will give white compounds with silver not toned.
You're a smart guy. You know damned well that the protection has been expanded by case precedent far beyond the simple intent of the founders.
Russ -
You're right. The Supreme Court has gone too far.
For example, look at the Hustler case.
The Court of Appeals ruled that the Hustler parody was not libelous because it was not believable, but they awarded damages to Falwell for "emotional distress". The court rejected as irrelevant (IMHO, correctly) "the contention that, because the jury found that the parody did not describe actual facts, the ad was an opinion protected by the First Amendment".
Hustler appealed to the Supreme Court on the "emotional distress" award, claiming First Amendment protection, and won. The Court's decision boiled down to an uwillingness to try to set subjective standards for public discourse.
IMHO, both courts missed a more important point. People should be allowed to intentionally inflict emotional distress on anybody - not just public figures - if they can figure out how to do it within proper legal boundaries. (Cheating girlfriends have inflicted far more emotional distress than Hustler ever inflicted on Falwell. Should these women be dragged into court? Actually, don't answer that. ) Besides, anyone can claim to be emotionally distraught over anything.
Edited because I was completely wrong.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Can you amagine what would happen in todays real-estate market if the appraisers had the same leeway that the coin appraisers seem to have, with no standards? The only difference between real estate and coins is that the someone (banks? mortgage lenders?, title companies?) sat down and designed a nationwide and industry wide system that became the standard for everyone.
Its high time the coin industry does the same thing...and very soon.
“Can you imagine what would happen in today’s real-estate market if the appraisers had the same leeway that the coin appraisers seem to have, with no standards?”
“I'd love to be a fly on the wall when David Hall, Mark Salzberg and Alan Hager sit down at the table to come up with "The One Standard".
Now we are getting to something that can, and should be done! This is my entire point. If all of these coin graders were licensed and bonded by an independent entity there would be no ACG lawsuit. The bad certifiers would get so many complaints that they would lose their license to practice, and the three gentlemen above would have much less power to set the tone of what coins should be graded at what levels. If they told their certifiers that they were going to tighten or loosen standards the certifiers could resign and go public with the companies orders. If lots of bad certifications started showing up from one certifier, collectors, dealers etc. could file complaints with the proper board and after so many mistakes the individual certifier would lose their license to practice. jshawaii, is right in his thinking. If a real-estate appraiser constantly over values the value of properties that others rely on, he loses his right to practice. Mr. Hall and Mr. Salzberg might not like this since it would level the playing field for graders but look at all the problems this would solve. No more company lawsuits, bad certifiers would be dis-barred. Collectors would have some type of court of appeals. Collectors that were damaged by bad certifications would collect from bonding companies. Best of all, every coin would have the seal of the certifier that graded the coin, so if we were all getting lots of bad grades from the same grader we could share that information and find out why? To Eureka's point, the above three gentlemen will not have to set down at all they will not be setting the license policies.
There very much is only one standard right now (two counting ACG). While some improvement in it's application might be possible if the various graders got together, the problem lies much more with the system than its application. Not that there's really a solution to this situation because even if coins were graded on each of their attributes there would still be wide variation in pricing and the application of pricing.
If real standards were introduced then at least grades would give you a good idea of the appearance of a coin. Value considerations would remain the province of the professionals in many cases.
There very much is only one standard right now (two counting ACG).
Actually, every service is different. And don't forget EAC. And darksiders. In Denmark, all coins are graded between 0 and 2. (They also use split grades, e.g., "1+ - 1".)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It is my belief it is time to have all professional graders licensed, bonded, and responsible to their companies, and the collecting public. This is the logical next step in the professional certification process, and millions of future dealers and collectors will thank us for the work we do here. I also believe it is time to start a new thread on this involved topic to collect comments on the how’s, why’s and who’s of how this should get done. Lets please discuss this under LICENSEING PROFESSIONAL GRADERS.
I have read this thread with great interest as it has grown and grown. I do not think any of us on this Board should be giving legal advice over the internet (altho I do like the idea of the "Battle of the PCGS US Coin Forum Laywers," and would like to discuss the Pay-Per-View potential with David Hall).
If, in fact, these postings are being carefully followed by both sides of the Florida litigation, and, if I were on the Plaintiffs' side, I definitely would counsel my clients to religiously follow them, all the more reason not to get in to the specifics of what the defendants have to say in their own defense.
The attorney-client privilege of confidential communications is a strange and fragile thing. It exists to encourage clients to be honest with their lawyers without fear of the consequences of being truthful. This whole internet cyberspace world, which makes this Board possible, is the antithesis of anybody's reasonable expectation of privacy or confidentiality. In fact, none of us knows how many people read these postings, but, it is available world-wide (except, maybe in countries where they censor or limit internet access) and could be read by hundreds or thousands. THERE IS NO CONFIDENTIALITY HERE; GOOD INFO, WARM COMPANIONSHIP, AN OCCASIONAL GREAT COIN PICTURE, GOOD TIPS AND GREAT NUMISMATIC EDUCATIONAL VALUE, BUT, AIN'T NOTHING SECRET OR CONFIDENTIAL GOING ON HERE!
Consequently, we brethren at the bar, ie., licensed and unlicensed lawyers, should be most careful about what we say and encourage others to say here while the ACG case is pending. I am licensed in California (not Florida) but, to the extent I can make my "donation" by some reduced rate or even pro bono (if the need is truly there) counseling and other legal services, please PM me and I will truly see if I can help. I already said this early on in this thread or in another thread and had some private calls about it, but, I renew the offer. But, on this Board, we should all be circumspect in our further communications.
I do not call someone who speaks his mind a vigialnte, only those whose goal it is to promote to and incite a group their idea as to the the guilt and punishment of someone without any jury, judge or trial.
I also never supported a coin doctor I simply said that those who are quick to judge without due process are likely to be biased and perhaps wrong. By blindly following the top grading companies but blame others with circumstantial evidence is ignorant and as we now know the grading companies make plenty of mistakes and not perfect.
And Sequitur quit your negative comments about what I wrote. As we saw you try to be less negative and spend the energy on researching your own statements before making a fool out of yourself not just once but 3 times.
This thread is crazy. I still do not understand why ACG sued anyone. Would be appreciated if you could explain the whole story, I can't read though 12 pages .
<< <i>This thread is crazy. I still do not understand why ACG sued anyone. Would be appreciated if you could explain the whole story, I can't read though 12 pages . >>
If you set your preferences to 100 posts per page on the "customize" page, you can read the thread in only two pages.
Here's a great way to solve this: Eliminate all laws except for basic things (Don't kill, steal, etc.) A similar thing could be done for taxes: For every $1000 of income, $5 in taxes is to be paid. No more, no less. Just think how much simpler the world would be! I can think of a number of high-profile cases that would go up in smoke instantly if this happened.......
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Naughton vs. Hager
<< <i>Isn't there something in the law(s) somewhere that says that the sale of a coin(s) cannot legally be graded more than 2 points higher that the accepted standard for the industry? >>
I don't think so, but as others have pointed out, there is a whole body of law that holds appraisers in other fields, such as real estate, liable for negligent acts that deviate from an industry standard, such as grossly misstating the value of a home. Consumer law in some states also defines as fraud the misrepresentation of products or the selling of products known to be defective, and that standard is applied fairly broadly in some areas. Given the trends toward regulation of the sale of other products, I would expect it's only a matter of time before some judge or government agency finds that coin dealers who don't meet certain accepted industry standards of grading and disclosure of defects are violating the law.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>If all we are ever going to receive from these certifying companies is just opinions that can vary from a body bad at one place, to an MS coin at another, why have we all bought into this? When PCGS and NGC got these companies rolling in the mid 80’s was there not an implicate promise of expert opinions that would be the same from all experts in the field. Is that what we have now? ... In the case of assayers, surveyors, and many other property appraisers and evaluators if there are drastic mistakes made in these “expert certifications” the certifiers are held responsible for loss. Only in our area of collecting and investment is it deemed all right to make mistakes, and pay no penalty. I really don’t understand why very few of my brothers and sisters here find that our current situation is acceptable. Are not many of us taking the same risks as people in other personal property acquisitions? >>
We didn't all "buy into it." (Take a walk on the Dark Side sometime.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
<< <i>While there is and always has been subjectivity associated with grading, the FACT is, the world's best graders achieve a mathematically signficant amount of consistency. >>
Yep, 75% agreement (See world series of grading scores.)
<< <i>Isn't there something in the law(s) somewhere that says that the sale of a coin(s) cannot legally be graded more than 2 points higher that the accepted standard for the industry? >>
Not that I'm aware of, but there are consumer protections laws and unfair and deceptive business practices law that allow for private Attorney General enforcement -- at least here in California. These types of laws can be utilized for situations were a consumer felt as though he/she was being defrauded or overcharged by a particular company. I would think this could apply to grading services and the rather inconsistent and always shifting standards -- however, that would be a rather difficult case. A better case could be made in regards to graded counterfeits, "mechanical errors" and the such.
Michael
Toned Coins for sale @ tonedcointrader.com
Are you sure that one's artificially toned?
Russ, NCNE
Toned Coins for sale @ tonedcointrader.com
how so? yu ever handled chlorine? its quite a noxious gas that should not be handled outside of a really good fume hood. besides it will give white compounds with silver not toned.
Russ -
You're right. The Supreme Court has gone too far.
For example, look at the Hustler case.
The Court of Appeals ruled that the Hustler parody was not libelous because it was not believable, but they awarded damages to Falwell for "emotional distress". The court rejected as irrelevant (IMHO, correctly) "the contention that, because the jury found that the parody did not describe actual facts, the ad was an opinion protected by the First Amendment".
Hustler appealed to the Supreme Court on the "emotional distress" award, claiming First Amendment protection, and won. The Court's decision boiled down to an uwillingness to try to set subjective standards for public discourse.
IMHO, both courts missed a more important point. People should be allowed to intentionally inflict emotional distress on anybody - not just public figures - if they can figure out how to do it within proper legal boundaries. (Cheating girlfriends have inflicted far more emotional distress than Hustler ever inflicted on Falwell. Should these women be dragged into court? Actually, don't answer that.
Edited because I was completely wrong.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Its high time the coin industry does the same thing...and very soon.
<< <i>You have to wonder if they are aware of this:
Naughton vs. Hager >>
You think this why he moved out of Connecticut?
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when David Hall, Mark Salzberg and Alan Hager sit down at the table to come up with "The One Standard".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
“I'd love to be a fly on the wall when David Hall, Mark Salzberg and Alan Hager sit down at the table to come up with "The One Standard".
Now we are getting to something that can, and should be done! This is my entire point. If all of these coin graders were licensed and bonded by an independent entity there would be no ACG lawsuit. The bad certifiers would get so many complaints that they would lose their license to practice, and the three gentlemen above would have much less power to set the tone of what coins should be graded at what levels. If they told their certifiers that they were going to tighten or loosen standards the certifiers could resign and go public with the companies orders. If lots of bad certifications started showing up from one certifier, collectors, dealers etc. could file complaints with the proper board and after so many mistakes the individual certifier would lose their license to practice. jshawaii, is right in his thinking. If a real-estate appraiser constantly over values the value of properties that others rely on, he loses his right to practice. Mr. Hall and Mr. Salzberg might not like this since it would level the playing field for graders but look at all the problems this would solve. No more company lawsuits, bad certifiers would be dis-barred. Collectors would have some type of court of appeals. Collectors that were damaged by bad certifications would collect from bonding companies. Best of all, every coin would have the seal of the certifier that graded the coin, so if we were all getting lots of bad grades from the same grader we could share that information and find out why?
To Eureka's point, the above three gentlemen will not have to set down at all they will not be setting the license policies.
improvement in it's application might be possible if the various graders got together,
the problem lies much more with the system than its application. Not that there's
really a solution to this situation because even if coins were graded on each of their
attributes there would still be wide variation in pricing and the application of pricing.
If real standards were introduced then at least grades would give you a good idea
of the appearance of a coin. Value considerations would remain the province of the
professionals in many cases.
Actually, every service is different. And don't forget EAC. And darksiders. In Denmark, all coins are graded between 0 and 2. (They also use split grades, e.g., "1+ - 1".)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If, in fact, these postings are being carefully followed by both sides of the Florida litigation, and, if I were on the Plaintiffs' side, I definitely would counsel my clients to religiously follow them, all the more reason not to get in to the specifics of what the defendants have to say in their own defense.
The attorney-client privilege of confidential communications is a strange and fragile thing. It exists to encourage clients to be honest with their lawyers without fear of the consequences of being truthful. This whole internet cyberspace world, which makes this Board possible, is the antithesis of anybody's reasonable expectation of privacy or confidentiality. In fact, none of us knows how many people read these postings, but, it is available world-wide (except, maybe in countries where they censor or limit internet access) and could be read by hundreds or thousands. THERE IS NO CONFIDENTIALITY HERE; GOOD INFO, WARM COMPANIONSHIP, AN OCCASIONAL GREAT COIN PICTURE, GOOD TIPS AND GREAT NUMISMATIC EDUCATIONAL VALUE, BUT, AIN'T NOTHING SECRET OR CONFIDENTIAL GOING ON HERE!
Consequently, we brethren at the bar, ie., licensed and unlicensed lawyers, should be most careful about what we say and encourage others to say here while the ACG case is pending. I am licensed in California (not Florida) but, to the extent I can make my "donation" by some reduced rate or even pro bono (if the need is truly there) counseling and other legal services, please PM me and I will truly see if I can help. I already said this early on in this thread or in another thread and had some private calls about it, but, I renew the offer. But, on this Board, we should all be circumspect in our further communications.
I also never supported a coin doctor I simply said that those who are quick to judge without due process are likely to be biased and perhaps wrong. By blindly following the top grading companies but blame others with circumstantial evidence is ignorant and as we now know the grading companies make plenty of mistakes and not perfect.
And Sequitur quit your negative comments about what I wrote. As we saw you try to be less negative and spend the energy on researching your own statements before making a fool out of yourself not just once but 3 times.
HELP ME WIGGLES! Take me away from all this legalistic mumbo-jumbo!
<< <i>This thread is crazy. I still do not understand why ACG sued anyone. Would be appreciated if you could explain the whole story, I can't read though 12 pages
If you set your preferences to 100 posts per page on the "customize" page, you can read the thread in only two pages.
TextComplaint
al h.