Let me give my opinion on this, as I deal with quotes like this (dollar-wise) for the big three automotive companies all the time. I do not deal with PCGS, NGC or PNG directly at all (I sometimes buy their slabs).
<< <i>For the past 5 years or so, PCGS has been the "official grading service" of the Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG.) >>
I think DH stated this because he probably feels that PCGS has done a great job for PNG over the last 5 years. If I was the incumbent for a bid of this type, and my customer felt that I had done a great job for 5 years, I would like to think that there would be some value in that (over and above what my current bid was). Now, I have nothing against NGC; I'm sure that they are a very good company, and they will probably give the same level of commitment to PNG that PCGS has given in the last 5 years.
Now, lets get to the part I hear many times -
<< <i>The bids were supposedly "sealed." >>
- I can tell you that almost 100% of the time that this was in an RFQ that I have dealt with, someone within the customer organization leaks info on competitors bids. Happens *all* the time. In 13 years of negotiating contracts, I have heard only once where it was suspected, a trap was set (by the customer) - and the guilty party was caught (this was on a multi-million dollar contract). Obviously I have not seen the RFQ, and if the statement of work actually has numbers -how many submissions per year, etc, etc - then I could actually see how NGC would be close to PCGS. I'm betting that the RFQ did not have numbers like this, because PNG would not want to "lock in" to a confined submission amount. If I was working on this RFQ, and did not have any numbers to work off of, I would start with past data. Lets say that NGC used past data to "formulate" their bid, and lets say they knew that PCGS had the past contract for $120,000. So, based on that (and any other info they may have had), NGC calculated a bid of 4.5 times the previous amount and were within 8% of PCGS's bid. You know the saying - if it looks like a fish, and smells like a fish........
If I were DH I would be pi$$ed as well, not at NGC, and certainly not at the PNG community. I would be mad at the PNG negotiators - because as an incumbent, I would believe that my bid was used by a competitor to base their bid at a higher level. And what did my company do to deserve this.....serve the PNG well for the last 5 years.
Again, this is all speculation, based only on the facts given - yes, I know that these facts are like grading a coin based on bad pictures - but it is all I have. That said, I do have to admit that I do not like DH's last remarks. This is where I believe he let his emotions get the best of him.
Edited to add: IMHO
SNIKT! You are doing well, subject 15837. You are a good person.
<< <i>as coin dealers we are stronger as a group ......sounds like the mafia to me. and every industry needs a watch-dog organization to keep it's participants honest. Mr. Feigenbaum, what will the PNG use the $500,000 for? Will you have a golf outing for all of the members of the prestigious PNG country club? Will you use the half million dollars to advertise the PNG so that you can lure more members, thereby increasing revenue? Or, will the PNG use the money to help educate the public, such as put out a book on the perils of buying and sell coins, especially expensive coins in plastic? Will the PNG use the money to finally launch the "coin doctor posse" that never happened? Also, please disclose the part of the deal that has to do with PNG dealers getting free grading through NGC. How does that work??
Thank you for asking: the winning bid breaks down to three annual payments of cash and grading credits.
More than half of the endoresment value comes in the form of grading fee credits to the member dealers. That is, every member dealer gets an annual "grading credit" from NGC of $500. Nothing more, nothing less.
The cash portion of the endorsement is used for the sponsorship of PNG Day at ANA and Central States Shows; arbitrations; general operating overhead of the organization; and as a subsidy to keep dues level.
Also, as part of the sponsorship agreement, NGC has pledged to help us increase our exposure to the hobby by advertising more, etc. We advertise as much as our budget will allow.
-John
p.s. sounds like you've been watching too much Sopranos
Hi John! Since you're answering questions, can you comment on whether or not there was a required bid format or if the two grading companies arrived at their bid format independent of PNG input.
<< <i>Plain and simply, the PNG is the ONLY professional organization of coin dealers that organizes itself for the betterment of the hobby. >>
BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! 10 minutes after reading that, i'm still guffawing!
you mean to tell me that we poor, stupid, ignorant coin dealers NEED a professional organization of DEALERS for a better "hobby"??? BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
that's like saying we poor, stupid, american citizens NEED professional CRIMINALS for the betterment of crime. BWUAHAHAHA!
you "professional" dealers really want to improve the hobby? THEN GET OUT OF IT. i'm sure that the instant vacuum in price gouging would bring prices back down to palatable levels, & we poor stupid ignorant collectors would gee, somehow find some way to keep on collecting coins.
[other comments retracted]
<< <i>Dork, my point can be found at the top of your head. >>
you know bear, i looked, but all i saw was dandruff. oh, maybe that's where your point got lost.
(although i agree 100% w/ your comment about the mr-lawrence & the load of fertilizer)
I get so tired of people coming on here and saying this dealer or that dealer sc**wed me. What can I do about it, who do I talk too, where can I file a complaint, I have no recourse, there should be some way to deal with crooked dealers, the list goes on.
Some honest, well meaning individuals and dealers in this hobby try to add some credibilty to the hobby, by starting the ANA and PNG. By at least trying to offer some means of protection for the collector. Then certain contibuters here come on and slam these same organizations-organizations which are in truth trying to better the hobby-for being corrupt and only in it for the money. If people think dealers are in the PNG for ego (well maybe ego, only in the sense of accomplishment), prestige or money, think again. All the bashers here have already said the PNG carries no weight with them. Then, how prestigous can it be to be a member of such an ineffective organization. You can't have it both ways.
There is always in fighting and power struggles in any organization. Is absolutely everything on the up and up???? Does it pay to know people???? Maybe?? There isn't any group, business or organization in this country that doesn't have problems at one time or another.
So, instead of constantly bad mouthing people or organizations trying to do something positive, keep it to yourself or make it constructive or do something about it and get involved.
Do something about it!!!! Don't just be an arm chair quarterback.
Unfortunately the head (David Hall)of one of the larger players in the industry is helping to discredit the same organization he should be supportung to help improve the industry. Not very insightful. What happens in 3 years when PCGS gets it back???
<< <i>Hi John! Since you're answering questions, can you comment on whether or not there was a required bid format or if the two grading companies arrived at their bid format independent of PNG input. >>
I had nothing to do with the bidding process, but it was explained to me that the bid were prepared independently of each other, and of PNG input.
<< <i>Do something about it!!!! Don't just be an arm chair quarterback. >>
by golly, i did! i joined the eac & jrcs!
now, THOSE ARE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO HELP the collector.
btw, there are some FANTASTIC, OUTSTANDING WONDERFUL DEALERS who happen to be members of the png. but none of them have posted to this thread . . . . . . so far.
They are both GREAT (EAC & JRCS) organizations. I belong to both. But they have no enforcement capabilities. While ANA and PNG don't have a whole lot of power, they do offer some protections.
<< <i>Do something about it!!!! Don't just be an arm chair quarterback. >>
by golly, i did! i joined the eac & jrcs!
now, THOSE ARE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO HELP the collector. >>
Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization.
elwood, it's the alleged "enforcement capability" of png that scares me. who audits they're actions? isn't it rather self-serving to believe that a group well-heeled DEALERS is going to be the supposed "guidance" for our hobby?
interesting that they EXCLUDE the very people who they allege to be "protecting" from any decision making (ie. enforcement) processes.
<< <i>Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization. >>
i'm not aware that EAC has rules to exclude COLLECTORS from their fraternity.
"Apparently NGC values these paid endorsements more then we do. Perhaps they feel they help the TV sales of NGC modern 70 coins."
Revised post...
"We are not upset that we did not get this endorsement as we bid what we thought it was worth to us, all things considered. We did however, feel that buyers of third party certified coins deserve to know that these are paid endorsements...hence the post."
If you were not upset about losing the endorsement, why did you post your original statement? Why did you feel it necessary to edit out your snide comment regarding TV sales? If you feel so strongly that we as collectors deserve to know these are paid for endorsements, please tell us why you waited until now, after losing it, to inform us you paid for it five years ago.
<< <i>"The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought." >>
As you did for the five years you held the endorsement.
<< <i>"Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned." >>
By making your original statement...then editing it for "political correctness" while not being "upset" about the loss, you have lowered my respect for you and value for your service considering your position.
Had you initially come out with a statement similar to... "My congratulations to NGC on proffering the high bid to be the official grading service for PNG. I am sure they will do an outstanding job for them just as we did for the 5 years we held that position.", then you would have earned my respect.
Those forum members bashing Mr. Lawrence and his statement only serve to show Mr. Lawrence and NGC how petty and childish they can be while reinforcing the fact NGC deserved the position even if there had been no bidding for the endorsement.
If someone were to post this entire fiasco word for word, post for post, to an eBay listing, I wonder how much "respect and value" PCGS services and slabs would fair.
JMHO
And now I see that both posts by David Feigenbaum, president of DLRC, has had both of his posts altered/edited by a CU moderator. What the hell gives you the right to do this?????? Because you don't agree, because it is YOUR forum, because you didn't like what was said? This is just more fuel for the fire DH started with his pissy post. Kinda reminds me of Watergate!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we have a Hallgate!
Everything starts and everything stops at precisely the right time for precisely the right reason.
I agree with you Bear, and I'm frankly surprised that the owner of a coin selling company with a following as large as DLRC would come out with a statement like this! This makes me question DLRC's agenda, as to the fact that a vast majority of their coins seem to be NGC graded.
Puff absolutely agree too - ditto - I got kind of turned off every time I see a better Merc I like it is in a NGC slab - I can't understand the wisdom of that - but his loss. I also am even more turned off with that statement - as I assume the Richmond collection will mostly if not all be entombed in NGC plastic. ANd the PNG thing - B-----S , I care less, as most of us know - you get to know the honest and over caring dealers and stick with them regardless off stupid affiliation. Mark Feld & Mike Printz comes to mind automatically.
<< <i>elwood, it's the alleged "enforcement capability" of png that scares me. who audits they're actions? isn't it rather self-serving to believe that a group well-heeled DEALERS is going to be the supposed "guidance" for our hobby?
interesting that they EXCLUDE the very people who they allege to be "protecting" from any decision making (ie. enforcement) processes.
<< <i>Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization. >>
i'm not aware that EAC has rules to exclude COLLECTORS from their fraternity.
K S >>
I didn't say they did. However, dealers hold the leadership positions in EAC.
<< <i>Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization. >>
I take exception to this. Of the EAC board (i.e. President, VP, Secretary, Treasurer, Membership chairman, Librarian, and Historian), two are part-time dealers while all the others are merely dedicated collectors who wish to give of their time (including Pres, VP, and the long-time treasurer). None are full-time dealers. The 8 Regions have both chairmen and secretaries. A few of these people are full-time dealers, including one who sells only books.
EAC DOES look out for its own interests: providing scholarships to young collectors to make sure someone is around to buy your collection in 40 years, staging conventions to increase the collegiality of collecting, funding seminars at their own convention and elsewhere, maintaining a fine lending library, and publishing one of the finest magazines in all of numismatics.
My head is not so far in the sand to think that everyone always agrees with the EAC Board or the actions of the organization, but to think they are somehow a negative force is a baseless criticism in my opinion.
I had nothing to do with the bidding process, but it was explained to me that the bid were prepared independently of each other, and of PNG input.
John: I find this disturbing. I see almost no possibility of there being a coincidence that the bids were of the same format with each portion similar amounts higher. Let's examine:
PCGS bid $60,000 cash a year for 3 years.... a total of $180,000 NGC bid $65,000 cash the first year with slight increases the next two years ... a total of about $200,000 - or approximately $20,000 higher than PCGS.
Additionally, PCGS bid $324,000 in grading slots. NGC bid approximately $344,000 in grading slots - or approximately $20,000 higher than PCGS.
As a construction contractor, I am intimately familiar with the bid process. To bid just higher than another company is one thing. To independently arrive at the exact same format for one's bid, and then to just slightly win out on each of the individual items by a similar amount IS NOT ONLY NOT LIKELY, BUT NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. If this was one of my bids, I'd have reacted in the same manner as HRH.... tho perhaps I would have kicked the dog in a slightly more private manner...
<< <i>Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization. >>
I take exception to this. Of the EAC board (i.e. President, VP, Secretary, Treasurer, Membership chairman, Librarian, and Historian), two are part-time dealers while all the others are merely dedicated collectors who wish to give of their time (including Pres, VP, and the long-time treasurer). None are full-time dealers. The 8 Regions have both chairmen and secretaries. A few of these people are full-time dealers, including one who sells only books.
EAC DOES look out for its own interests: providing scholarships to young collectors to make sure someone is around to buy your collection in 40 years, staging conventions to increase the collegiality of collecting, funding seminars at their own convention and elsewhere, maintaining a fine lending library, and publishing one of the finest magazines in all of numismatics.
My head is not so far in the sand to think that everyone always agrees with the EAC Board or the actions of the organization, but to think they are somehow a negative force is a baseless criticism in my opinion.
EAC 3208 (since 1989) -- and not a board member >>
I don't think they're a negative force. I was just pointing out that sometimes what they do isn't always objective, which was implied in an earlier post. If you've been a member since 1989, then you remember the EAC auction controversy, which is one of the things that comes to mind. EAC has done volumes for the hobby, but they aren't the benevolent, only looking out for the collector's interests, organization either. Sometimes they act in their own interest or the interest of individual members. That was my only point.
"We are not upset that we did not get this endorsement as we bid what we thought it was worth to us, all things considered. We did however, feel that buyers of third party certified coins deserve to know that these are paid endorsements...hence the post."
If the above statement by David Hall is really the motive behind the post (a big IF) then why was it not CLEARLY posted on their OWN web site http://www.pcgs.com/aboutus.chtml that they paid for the right to make these claims in the past?? I looked every where on the PCGS site and could not find a single reference to the paid endorsement anyplace. Trying to cover up a mistake with a lie does not seem to make much sense and only makes the motive of the initial post all the more clear.
<< <i>The only direct response I will make to Mr. Hall is this: As a board member, I am offended that you would advertise (in negative fashion) to the world that "The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought." I feel 100% certain that these comments would not have been made if you had won the endorsement, so why make them now? But I will let the readers of this thread come to their own conclusions. >>
<< <i>I agree with you Bear, and I'm frankly surprised that the owner of a coin selling company with a following as large as DLRC would come out with a statement like this! This makes me question DLRC's agenda, as to the fact that a vast majority of their coins seem to be NGC graded.
Puff absolutely agree too - ditto - I got kind of turned off every time I see a better Merc I like it is in a NGC slab - I can't understand the wisdom of that - but his loss. I also am even more turned off with that statement - as I assume the Richmond collection will mostly if not all be entombed in NGC plastic. ANd the PNG thing - B-----S , I care less, as most of us know - you get to know the honest and over caring dealers and stick with them regardless off stupid affiliation. Mark Feld & Mike Printz comes to mind automatically.
Marc >>
Hey Marc...... The people that read this thread will start thinking that we're getting paid by Pinnacle & Larry Whitlows for promoting their business interests here if we keep tooting their horns!
Hey Marc...... The people that read this thread will start thinking that we're getting paid by Pinnacle & Larry Whitlows for promoting their business interests here if we keep tooting their horns!
After reading this and the other version across the street the only question I have is everyone having fun with their hobby ? Seems like no one is but that each person has a agenda to harp about or a person to bash. What a load.
Hell I thought this was a Hobby..... as usual I was out to lunch with that thought.
I'm not a member of PNG. It is my understanding that it costs each dealer $1,000.00 per year to belong.
From earlier threads it sounds as if PNG members get the these particular PCGS/NGC coins graded for free. Are the submissions actually being paid for, in part, by the $1,000.00 membership fee?
PNG Members????
Aren't Mark Feld and Mike Printz PNG Members or Members through their businesses? I dare say there are many other PNG Members who are very honest and well respected.
<< <i>The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought. Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned. >>
I would suspect that both the PNG and the ANA respect both NGC and PCGS, otherwise neither company would be encouraged to bid. And I ditto the responses which point out that PCGS 'bought' the endorsements previously, however, now, it's convenient to bash NGC, and I don't think that is very polite.
<< <i>After reading this and the other version across the street the only question I have is everyone having fun with their hobby ? Seems like no one is but that each person has a agenda to harp about or a person to bash. What a load.
Hell I thought this was a Hobby..... as usual I was out to lunch with that thought >>
why would you think that? when you've got major corporations telling you what's ok to collect & what's not, how the he11 could you possibly confuse that w/ a HOBBY for chrissake? then when same corporations run around w/ gangs of dealers, i mean c'mon, do you REALLY think the "hobbiest" is in the forefront?
no sir, your not supposed to enjoy any of this. this is BUSINESS, & BUSINESS is CUTTHROAT.
I'm not a member of PNG. It is my understanding that it costs each dealer $1,000.00 per year to belong.
From earlier threads it sounds as if PNG members get the these particular PCGS/NGC coins graded for free. Are the submissions actually being paid for, in part, by the $1,000.00 membership fee?
PNG Members????
Aren't Mark Feld and Mike Printz PNG Members or Members through their businesses? I dare say there are many other PNG Members who are very honest and well respected. >>
Elwood..... Just to clarify things for you as for as Mark Feld and Mike Printz getting their coins graded free because they are members of businesses that belong to PNG is absolutely false..... I don't know where you came up with that assumption...... If it was meant to be a question then I have answered it for you.
<< <i>Exactly my point EE. You can't. D. Hall throws out assertions and innuendo that can't be proven. If you think it can, then you answer, is what he's saying true? >>
<< <i>Elwood..... Just to clarify things for you as for as Mark Feld and Mike Printz getting their coins graded free because they are members of businesses that belong to PNG is absolutely false..... I don't know where you came up with that assumption...... If it was meant to be a question then I have answered it for you. >>
Puff,
I don't believe my statement made any such assumption??? that either Mark or Mike got coins graded for free?
What I asked was.... don't PNG MEMBERS (not Mark or Mike...I don't even know if they are members?) indirectly pay for these submission as part of their membership dues.
That they are not free but one of the benefits provided to MEMBERS.
<< <i>Aren't Mark Feld and Mike Printz PNG Members or Members through their businesses? >>
<< <i>I dare say there are many other PNG Members who are very honest and well respected. >>
This was actually a second part to my statement and had nothing to do with the first part. I was trying to give examples of respected dealers who are part of PNG...either themselves or indirectly through the companies they work for. All PNG members are not corrupt.
<< <i>Elwood..... Just to clarify things for you as for as Mark Feld and Mike Printz getting their coins graded free because they are members of businesses that belong to PNG is absolutely false..... I don't know where you came up with that assumption...... If it was meant to be a question then I have answered it for you. >>
Puff,
I don't believe my statement made any such assumption??? that either Mark or Mike got coins graded for free?
What I asked was.... don't PNG MEMBERS (not Mark or Mike...I don't even know if they are members?) indirectly pay for these submission as part of their membership dues.
That they are not free but one of the benefits provided to MEMBERS.
<< <i>Aren't Mark Feld and Mike Printz PNG Members or Members through their businesses? >>
<< <i>I dare say there are many other PNG Members who are very honest and well respected. >>
This was actually a second part to my statement and had nothing to do with the first part. I was trying to give examples of respected dealers who are part of PNG...either themselves or indirectly through the companies they work for. All PNG members are not corrupt.
I'm sorry if my comments were confusing. >>
Elwood..... That's why when I answered your first post if this was meant in the form of a question then your question has been answered..... I wasn't sure exactly what you were trying to say that's why I answered in the way that I did.
BTW..... The only person I know that gets free grading is Cameron Kiefer!
<< <i>I agree with you Bear, and I'm frankly surprised that the owner of a coin selling company with a following as large as DLRC would come out with a statement like this! This makes me question DLRC's agenda, as to the fact that a vast majority of their coins seem to be NGC graded. >>
Here is what the REAL vast majority is, straight from DLRC's inventory on their website:
<< <i>Now just how would you happen to know NGC isn't hurting for business? >>
Because, unlike you, I don't make stupid assumptions based on ignorance. I actually do business with NGC. You, OTOH, are a complete space case who has no idea what he's talking about 90% of the time, and the 10% when you do is when you remember to take your meds.
<< <i>There are quite a few people on those boards that tell me to extend a hearty"Come on down" to you! They say you don't have the balls to cross the street! >>
And, there you go with the threats again. Did you lose the map I gave you last time you rattled your saber?
Comments
<< <i>For the past 5 years or so, PCGS has been the "official grading service" of the Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG.) >>
I think DH stated this because he probably feels that PCGS has done a great job for PNG over the last 5 years. If I was the incumbent for a bid of this type, and my customer felt that I had done a great job for 5 years, I would like to think that there would be some value in that (over and above what my current bid was). Now, I have nothing against NGC; I'm sure that they are a very good company, and they will probably give the same level of commitment to PNG that PCGS has given in the last 5 years.
Now, lets get to the part I hear many times -
<< <i>The bids were supposedly "sealed." >>
- I can tell you that almost 100% of the time that this was in an RFQ that I have dealt with, someone within the customer organization leaks info on competitors bids. Happens *all* the time. In 13 years of negotiating contracts, I have heard only once where it was suspected, a trap was set (by the customer) - and the guilty party was caught (this was on a multi-million dollar contract). Obviously I have not seen the RFQ, and if the statement of work actually has numbers -how many submissions per year, etc, etc - then I could actually see how NGC would be close to PCGS. I'm betting that the RFQ did not have numbers like this, because PNG would not want to "lock in" to a confined submission amount. If I was working on this RFQ, and did not have any numbers to work off of, I would start with past data. Lets say that NGC used past data to "formulate" their bid, and lets say they knew that PCGS had the past contract for $120,000. So, based on that (and any other info they may have had), NGC calculated a bid of 4.5 times the previous amount and were within 8% of PCGS's bid. You know the saying - if it looks like a fish, and smells like a fish........
If I were DH I would be pi$$ed as well, not at NGC, and certainly not at the PNG community. I would be mad at the PNG negotiators - because as an incumbent, I would believe that my bid was used by a competitor to base their bid at a higher level. And what did my company do to deserve this.....serve the PNG well for the last 5 years.
Again, this is all speculation, based only on the facts given - yes, I know that these facts are like grading a coin based on bad pictures - but it is all I have. That said, I do have to admit that I do not like DH's last remarks. This is where I believe he let his emotions get the best of him.
Edited to add: IMHO
You are doing well, subject 15837. You are a good person.
<< <i>as coin dealers we are stronger as a group ......sounds like the mafia to me. and every industry needs a watch-dog organization to keep it's participants honest. Mr. Feigenbaum, what will the PNG use the $500,000 for? Will you have a golf outing for all of the members of the prestigious PNG country club? Will you use the half million dollars to advertise the PNG so that you can lure more members, thereby increasing revenue? Or, will the PNG use the money to help educate the public, such as put out a book on the perils of buying and sell coins, especially expensive coins in plastic? Will the PNG use the money to finally launch the "coin doctor posse" that never happened? Also, please disclose the part of the deal that has to do with PNG dealers getting free grading through NGC. How does that work??
Thank you for asking: the winning bid breaks down to three annual payments of cash and grading credits.
More than half of the endoresment value comes in the form of grading fee credits to the member dealers. That is, every member dealer gets an annual "grading credit" from NGC of $500. Nothing more, nothing less.
The cash portion of the endorsement is used for the sponsorship of PNG Day at ANA and Central States Shows; arbitrations; general operating overhead of the organization; and as a subsidy to keep dues level.
Also, as part of the sponsorship agreement, NGC has pledged to help us increase our exposure to the hobby by advertising more, etc. We advertise as much as our budget will allow.
-John
p.s. sounds like you've been watching too much Sopranos
<< <i>Plain and simply, the PNG is the ONLY professional organization of coin dealers that organizes itself for the betterment of the hobby. >>
BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! 10 minutes after reading that, i'm still guffawing!
you mean to tell me that we poor, stupid, ignorant coin dealers NEED a professional organization of DEALERS for a better "hobby"???
BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
that's like saying we poor, stupid, american citizens NEED professional CRIMINALS for the betterment of crime.
BWUAHAHAHA!
you "professional" dealers really want to improve the hobby? THEN GET OUT OF IT. i'm sure that the instant vacuum in price gouging would bring prices back down to palatable levels, & we poor stupid ignorant collectors would gee, somehow find some way to keep on collecting coins.
[other comments retracted]
<< <i>Dork, my point can be found at the top of your head. >>
you know bear, i looked, but all i saw was dandruff. oh, maybe that's where your point got lost.
(although i agree 100% w/ your comment about the mr-lawrence & the load of fertilizer)
K S
Some honest, well meaning individuals and dealers in this hobby try to add some credibilty to the hobby, by starting the ANA and PNG. By at least trying to offer some means of protection for the collector. Then certain contibuters here come on and slam these same organizations-organizations which are in truth trying to better the hobby-for being corrupt and only in it for the money. If people think dealers are in the PNG for ego (well maybe ego, only in the sense of accomplishment), prestige or money, think again. All the bashers here have already said the PNG carries no weight with them. Then, how prestigous can it be to be a member of such an ineffective organization. You can't have it both ways.
There is always in fighting and power struggles in any organization. Is absolutely everything on the up and up???? Does it pay to know people???? Maybe?? There isn't any group, business or organization in this country that doesn't have problems at one time or another.
So, instead of constantly bad mouthing people or organizations trying to do something positive, keep it to yourself or make it constructive or do something about it and get involved.
Do something about it!!!! Don't just be an arm chair quarterback.
Unfortunately the head (David Hall)of one of the larger players in the industry is helping to discredit the same organization he should be supportung to help improve the industry. Not very insightful. What happens in 3 years when PCGS gets it back???
Well, I'm done rambling on.
<< <i>Hi John! Since you're answering questions, can you comment on whether or not there was a required bid format or if the two grading companies arrived at their bid format independent of PNG input. >>
I had nothing to do with the bidding process, but it was explained to me that the bid were prepared independently of each other, and of PNG input.
<< <i>Do something about it!!!! Don't just be an arm chair quarterback. >>
by golly, i did! i joined the eac & jrcs!
now, THOSE ARE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO HELP the collector.
btw, there are some FANTASTIC, OUTSTANDING WONDERFUL DEALERS who happen to be members of the png. but none of them have posted to this thread . . . . . . so far.
K S
They are both GREAT (EAC & JRCS) organizations. I belong to both. But they have no enforcement capabilities. While ANA and PNG don't have a whole lot of power, they do offer some protections.
<< <i>
<< <i>Do something about it!!!! Don't just be an arm chair quarterback. >>
by golly, i did! i joined the eac & jrcs!
now, THOSE ARE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO HELP the collector. >>
Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization.
interesting that they EXCLUDE the very people who they allege to be "protecting" from any decision making (ie. enforcement) processes.
<< <i>Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization. >>
i'm not aware that EAC has rules to exclude COLLECTORS from their fraternity.
K S
Yes you do.....They are called politicians.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
"Apparently NGC values these paid endorsements more then we do. Perhaps they feel they help the TV sales of NGC modern 70 coins."
Revised post...
"We are not upset that we did not get this endorsement as we bid what we thought it was worth to us, all things considered. We did however, feel that buyers of third party certified coins deserve to know that these are paid endorsements...hence the post."
If you were not upset about losing the endorsement, why did you post your original statement? Why did you feel it necessary to edit out your snide comment regarding TV sales? If you feel so strongly that we as collectors deserve to know these are paid for endorsements, please tell us why you waited until now, after losing it, to inform us you paid for it five years ago.
<< <i>"The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought." >>
As you did for the five years you held the endorsement.
<< <i>"Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned." >>
By making your original statement...then editing it for "political correctness" while not being "upset" about the loss, you have lowered my respect for you and value for your service considering your position.
Had you initially come out with a statement similar to...
"My congratulations to NGC on proffering the high bid to be the official grading service for PNG. I am sure they will do an outstanding job for them just as we did for the 5 years we held that position.", then you would have earned my respect.
Those forum members bashing Mr. Lawrence and his statement only serve to show Mr. Lawrence and NGC how petty and childish they can be while reinforcing the fact NGC deserved the position even if there had been no bidding for the endorsement.
If someone were to post this entire fiasco word for word, post for post, to an eBay listing, I wonder how much "respect and value" PCGS services and slabs would fair.
JMHO
And now I see that both posts by David Feigenbaum, president of DLRC, has had both of his posts altered/edited by a CU moderator.
What the hell gives you the right to do this?????? Because you don't agree, because it is YOUR forum, because you didn't like what was said? This is just more fuel for the fire DH started with his pissy post. Kinda reminds me of Watergate!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we have a Hallgate!
Puff absolutely agree too - ditto - I got kind of turned off every time I see a better Merc I like it is in a NGC slab - I can't understand the wisdom of that - but his loss.
I also am even more turned off with that statement - as I assume the Richmond collection will mostly if not all be entombed in NGC plastic.
ANd the PNG thing - B-----S , I care less, as most of us know - you get to know the honest and over caring dealers and stick with them regardless off stupid affiliation.
Mark Feld & Mike Printz comes to mind automatically.
JMHO
Marc
<< <i>elwood, it's the alleged "enforcement capability" of png that scares me. who audits they're actions? isn't it rather self-serving to believe that a group well-heeled DEALERS is going to be the supposed "guidance" for our hobby?
interesting that they EXCLUDE the very people who they allege to be "protecting" from any decision making (ie. enforcement) processes.
<< <i>Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization. >>
i'm not aware that EAC has rules to exclude COLLECTORS from their fraternity.
K S >>
I didn't say they did. However, dealers hold the leadership positions in EAC.
<< <i>Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization. >>
I take exception to this. Of the EAC board (i.e. President, VP, Secretary, Treasurer, Membership chairman, Librarian, and Historian), two are part-time dealers while all the others are merely dedicated collectors who wish to give of their time (including Pres, VP, and the long-time treasurer). None are full-time dealers. The 8 Regions have both chairmen and secretaries. A few of these people are full-time dealers, including one who sells only books.
EAC DOES look out for its own interests: providing scholarships to young collectors to make sure someone is around to buy your collection in 40 years, staging conventions to increase the collegiality of collecting, funding seminars at their own convention and elsewhere, maintaining a fine lending library, and publishing one of the finest magazines in all of numismatics.
My head is not so far in the sand to think that everyone always agrees with the EAC Board or the actions of the organization, but to think they are somehow a negative force is a baseless criticism in my opinion.
EAC 3208 (since 1989) -- and not a board member
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
K S
John: I find this disturbing. I see almost no possibility of there being a coincidence that the bids were of the same format with each portion similar amounts higher. Let's examine:
PCGS bid $60,000 cash a year for 3 years.... a total of $180,000
NGC bid $65,000 cash the first year with slight increases the next two years ... a total of about $200,000 - or approximately $20,000 higher than PCGS.
Additionally, PCGS bid $324,000 in grading slots. NGC bid approximately $344,000 in grading slots - or approximately $20,000 higher than PCGS.
As a construction contractor, I am intimately familiar with the bid process. To bid just higher than another company is one thing. To independently arrive at the exact same format for one's bid, and then to just slightly win out on each of the individual items by a similar amount IS NOT ONLY NOT LIKELY, BUT NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. If this was one of my bids, I'd have reacted in the same manner as HRH.... tho perhaps I would have kicked the dog in a slightly more private manner...
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't know about JRCS but you must not have been in EAC very long. EAC is a dealer run organization and they look out for their own interests just like any other organization. >>
I take exception to this. Of the EAC board (i.e. President, VP, Secretary, Treasurer, Membership chairman, Librarian, and Historian), two are part-time dealers while all the others are merely dedicated collectors who wish to give of their time (including Pres, VP, and the long-time treasurer). None are full-time dealers. The 8 Regions have both chairmen and secretaries. A few of these people are full-time dealers, including one who sells only books.
EAC DOES look out for its own interests: providing scholarships to young collectors to make sure someone is around to buy your collection in 40 years, staging conventions to increase the collegiality of collecting, funding seminars at their own convention and elsewhere, maintaining a fine lending library, and publishing one of the finest magazines in all of numismatics.
My head is not so far in the sand to think that everyone always agrees with the EAC Board or the actions of the organization, but to think they are somehow a negative force is a baseless criticism in my opinion.
EAC 3208 (since 1989) -- and not a board member >>
I don't think they're a negative force. I was just pointing out that sometimes what they do isn't always objective, which was implied in an earlier post. If you've been a member since 1989, then you remember the EAC auction controversy, which is one of the things that comes to mind. EAC has done volumes for the hobby, but they aren't the benevolent, only looking out for the collector's interests, organization either. Sometimes they act in their own interest or the interest of individual members. That was my only point.
If the above statement by David Hall is really the motive behind the post (a big IF) then why was it not CLEARLY posted on their OWN web site http://www.pcgs.com/aboutus.chtml that they paid for the right to make these claims in the past?? I looked every where on the PCGS site and could not find a single reference to the paid endorsement anyplace. Trying to cover up a mistake with a lie does not seem to make much sense and only makes the motive of the initial post all the more clear.
K S
So all these dealers get a bunch of coins certified by a company that nobody really wants...
and guess what...they're stuck with inventory that does not move ( Everybody knows dealers
HAVE to move inventory) Not only that but NGC forks out over a half million dollars when they
are already suffering because of the aforementioned-NOBODY WANTS THEIR SLABS?!
Now...let's see 2 + 2 = 4... NGC is already hurting for business yet they are going to give away
all this money and all these gradings
If NGC truly thinks that the PNG logo on the back of their slabs will increase their sales...
might I suggest they submit themselves for urinalyses. They have just committed SUICIDE!!
While I have come to personally know and respect Mr. Lawrence(anybody that knows me
knows RESPECT and TRUST do not come easily to me) he knows just as sure as he is reading
these words which product butters his bread! AND IT AIN'T NGC !
Thats interesting. I have several NGC graded coins on EBAY right now that are doing quite well, thank you very much.
What ever happened to ---buy the coin, not the holder?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>The only direct response I will make to Mr. Hall is this: As a board member, I am offended that you would advertise (in negative fashion) to the world that "The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought." I feel 100% certain that these comments would not have been made if you had won the endorsement, so why make them now? But I will let the readers of this thread come to their own conclusions. >>
Very well said.
<< <i>I agree with you Bear, and I'm frankly surprised that the owner of a coin selling company with a following as large as DLRC would come out with a statement like this! This makes me question DLRC's agenda, as to the fact that a vast majority of their coins seem to be NGC graded.
Puff absolutely agree too - ditto - I got kind of turned off every time I see a better Merc I like it is in a NGC slab - I can't understand the wisdom of that - but his loss.
I also am even more turned off with that statement - as I assume the Richmond collection will mostly if not all be entombed in NGC plastic.
ANd the PNG thing - B-----S , I care less, as most of us know - you get to know the honest and over caring dealers and stick with them regardless off stupid affiliation.
Mark Feld & Mike Printz comes to mind automatically.
Marc >>
Hey Marc...... The people that read this thread will start thinking that we're getting paid by Pinnacle & Larry Whitlows for promoting their business interests here if we keep tooting their horns!
yea right
Hell I thought this was a Hobby..... as usual I was out to lunch with that thought.
Ken
I'm not a member of PNG. It is my understanding that it costs each dealer $1,000.00 per year to belong.
From earlier threads it sounds as if PNG members get the these particular PCGS/NGC coins graded for free. Are the submissions actually being paid for, in part, by the $1,000.00 membership fee?
PNG Members????
Aren't Mark Feld and Mike Printz PNG Members or Members through their businesses?
I dare say there are many other PNG Members who are very honest and well respected.
<< <i>The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought. Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned. >>
I would suspect that both the PNG and the ANA respect both NGC and PCGS, otherwise neither company would be encouraged to bid.
And I ditto the responses which point out that PCGS 'bought' the endorsements previously, however, now, it's convenient to bash NGC, and I don't think that is very polite.
<< <i>After reading this and the other version across the street the only question I have is everyone having fun with their hobby ? Seems like no one is but that each person has a agenda to harp about or a person to bash. What a load.
Hell I thought this was a Hobby..... as usual I was out to lunch with that thought >>
why would you think that? when you've got major corporations telling you what's ok to collect & what's not, how the he11 could you possibly confuse that w/ a HOBBY for chrissake? then when same corporations run around w/ gangs of dealers, i mean c'mon, do you REALLY think the "hobbiest" is in the forefront?
no sir, your not supposed to enjoy any of this. this is BUSINESS, & BUSINESS is CUTTHROAT.
K S
<< <i>NGC is already hurting for business yet they are going to give away
all this money and all these gradings Looks like NGC has just buried themselves! >>
Boom,
Where the hell do you get that NGC is hurting for business? They are SWAMPED with business right now. You don't have a clue.
Russ, NCNE
across the street. When people come to my Forum and make comments I disagree
with, I will express my opinions. When PNG officials come over here to unload a bunch
of hogwash on us poor innocent ,stupid collectors, then they deserve to get it straight
right in the kisser.I expected better from Lawrence, but I guess when you bread is being buttered
on both sides by PNG and NGC , you say what the Heffe(s) want to hear. We dont screw around with the
NGC Forum and we dont tolerate people coming over here to screw around with us. If you dont like
it here, then go home.I dont mind when people disagree with me, thats a free democratic society,
I just dont like pot stirrers and people with agendas.
Camelot
thats first class....he could have let some clowns here come to their own conclusions
and made for some funny reading though
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
sometimes I let the nasties get the better of me. Must have been my arthritis talking again.
Camelot
<< <i>I dont go over to the other Forum across the street and I dont make comments
across the street. When people come to my Forum and make comments I disagree
with, I will express my opinions. When PNG officials come over here to unload a bunch
of hogwash on us poor innocent ,stupid collectors, then they deserve to get it straight
right in the kisser.I expected better from Lawrence, but I guess when you bread is being buttered
on both sides by PNG and NGC , you say what the Heffe(s) want to hear. We dont screw around with the
NGC Forum and we dont tolerate people coming over here to screw around with us. If you dont like
it here, then go home.I dont mind when people disagree with me, thats a free democratic society,
I just dont like pot stirrers and people with agendas. >>
Damn Bear.....I was goin to say you're the man! But that just doesn't sound right callin a Bear a man!
<< <i>I just dont like pot stirrers and people with agendas. >>
You don't understand this is exactly what was done by this initial post?
What do you take ME for? Stupid? I beg your pardon.
<< <i>
<< <i>I just dont like pot stirrers and people with agendas. >>
You don't understand this is exactly what was done by this initial post?
What do you take ME for? Stupid? I beg your pardon. >>
Dont understand your comment?
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>I just dont like pot stirrers and people with agendas. >>
You don't understand this is exactly what was done by this initial post?
What do you take ME for? Stupid? I beg your pardon. >>
I dont understand your comment?
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>I just dont like pot stirrers and people with agendas. >>
You don't understand this is exactly what was done by this initial post?
What do you take ME for? Stupid? I beg your pardon. >>
Dont understand your comment?
Camelot
<< <i>I think one point needs some clarification.
I'm not a member of PNG. It is my understanding that it costs each dealer $1,000.00 per year to belong.
From earlier threads it sounds as if PNG members get the these particular PCGS/NGC coins graded for free. Are the submissions actually being paid for, in part, by the $1,000.00 membership fee?
PNG Members????
Aren't Mark Feld and Mike Printz PNG Members or Members through their businesses?
I dare say there are many other PNG Members who are very honest and well respected. >>
Elwood..... Just to clarify things for you as for as Mark Feld and Mike Printz getting their coins graded free because they are members of businesses that belong to PNG is absolutely false..... I don't know where you came up with that assumption...... If it was meant to be a question then I have answered it for you.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just dont like pot stirrers and people with agendas. >>
You don't understand this is exactly what was done by this initial post?
What do you take ME for? Stupid? I beg your pardon. >>
Dont understand your comment? >>
Hey Bear..... Do you understand the comment?
Camelot
<< <i>Exactly my point EE. You can't. D. Hall throws out assertions and innuendo that can't be proven. If you think it can, then you answer, is what he's saying true? >>
Donovan, you haven't made a point yet...
<< <i>Elwood..... Just to clarify things for you as for as Mark Feld and Mike Printz getting their coins graded free because they are members of businesses that belong to PNG is absolutely false..... I don't know where you came up with that assumption...... If it was meant to be a question then I have answered it for you. >>
Puff,
I don't believe my statement made any such assumption??? that either Mark or Mike got coins graded for free?
What I asked was.... don't PNG MEMBERS (not Mark or Mike...I don't even know if they are members?) indirectly pay for these submission as part of their membership dues.
That they are not free but one of the benefits provided to MEMBERS.
<< <i>Aren't Mark Feld and Mike Printz PNG Members or Members through their businesses? >>
<< <i>I dare say there are many other PNG Members who are very honest and well respected. >>
This was actually a second part to my statement and had nothing to do with the first part.
I was trying to give examples of respected dealers who are part of PNG...either themselves or indirectly through the companies they work for. All PNG members are not corrupt.
I'm sorry if my comments were confusing.
<< <i>
<< <i>Elwood..... Just to clarify things for you as for as Mark Feld and Mike Printz getting their coins graded free because they are members of businesses that belong to PNG is absolutely false..... I don't know where you came up with that assumption...... If it was meant to be a question then I have answered it for you. >>
Puff,
I don't believe my statement made any such assumption??? that either Mark or Mike got coins graded for free?
What I asked was.... don't PNG MEMBERS (not Mark or Mike...I don't even know if they are members?) indirectly pay for these submission as part of their membership dues.
That they are not free but one of the benefits provided to MEMBERS.
<< <i>Aren't Mark Feld and Mike Printz PNG Members or Members through their businesses? >>
<< <i>I dare say there are many other PNG Members who are very honest and well respected. >>
This was actually a second part to my statement and had nothing to do with the first part.
I was trying to give examples of respected dealers who are part of PNG...either themselves or indirectly through the companies they work for. All PNG members are not corrupt.
I'm sorry if my comments were confusing. >>
Elwood..... That's why when I answered your first post if this was meant in the form of a question then your question has been answered..... I wasn't sure exactly what you were trying to say that's why I answered in the way that I did.
BTW..... The only person I know that gets free grading is Cameron Kiefer!
<< <i>I agree with you Bear, and I'm frankly surprised that the owner of a coin selling company with a following as large as DLRC would come out with a statement like this! This makes me question DLRC's agenda, as to the fact that a vast majority of their coins seem to be NGC graded. >>
Here is what the REAL vast majority is, straight from DLRC's inventory on their website:
PCGS coins: 1979
NGC coins: 1233
These are called facts, BTW.
"Mr.OCD for Kennedy accented hair proofs"...self appointed PCGS Forum Sheriff...
I'm talking to you, Russ.
Now just how would you happen to know NGC isn't hurting for business?
are quite a few people on those boards that tell me to extend a hearty"Come on down"
to you! They say you don't have the balls to cross the street! They're waiting for you.
I am an ANA member. I own slabs from both services. I stand by every word I say both
yay and nay regarding both. I also sell both.
I know exactly who and what I am and the bottom line with me is I simply want my coins
graded accurately the first time around and in the holder that makes me the most money!
Period! I could care less about a PNG logo on the back. If Russ' Grading Service brought
the most revenue, I'd be selling them. BTW..how much for the shaving kits? You sew??
<< <i>Now just how would you happen to know NGC isn't hurting for business? >>
Because, unlike you, I don't make stupid assumptions based on ignorance. I actually do business with NGC. You, OTOH, are a complete space case who has no idea what he's talking about 90% of the time, and the 10% when you do is when you remember to take your meds.
<< <i>There are quite a few people on those boards that tell me to extend a hearty"Come on down" to you! They say you don't have the balls to cross the street! >>
And, there you go with the threats again. Did you lose the map I gave you last time you rattled your saber?
Russ, NCNE