I happen to feel that David got a little ahead of himself and should apologize to NGC and PNG for making the statement he did. He should have stuck to the facts and wished NGC luck the next time the bidding takes place three years from now.
As to concerns to the other issues, they should have been brought up in a separate forum at another time as a separate topic for discussion. There may be legitimate issues here but I feel that right now, it does not look proper to bring up here on the very first day of the announcement.
The high road always works better! >>
Exactly! The statement was petty and unprofessional.
So NGC outbid PCGS for the right to claim they are the "official grading service" of the PNG. NGC is also the "official grading service" of the ANA. That too is a paid endorsement, and NGC outbid PCGS on that endorsement too. Apparently NGC values these paid endorsements more than we do. Perhaps they feel they help the TV sales of NGC modern 70 coins.
With all due respect, if you're so against "paid endorsements" then why did you offer to pay? And why are you so against "modern 70 coins"? Does PCGS just assume that it's impossible that there's a good number of modern 70 coins out there?? I'd rather see some specific examples as to why you think the grading process is flawed across the street (e.g., demonstrate why a specific "70" coin doesn't deserve the grade). Respectfully, techeff.
Quite frankly, I do not believe that either the ANA and PNG should endorse any grading service. Both the ANA and PNG should instead take the aforementioned high road and not endorse any service but instead put to the mebership a list of "accepted" or "member" grading services.
I have expressed very strongly to Chris Cippoleti of the ANA with Barry Stuppler's help that the idea of any endorsed grading service has got to go. The ANA has a few more years of the endorsement left.
<< <i>Quite frankly, I do not believe that either the ANA and PNG should endorse any grading service. Both the ANA and PNG should instead take the aforementioned high road and not endorse any service but instead put to the mebership a list of "accepted" or "member" grading services.
I have expressed very strongly to Chris Cippoleti of the ANA with Barry Stuppler's help that the idea of any endorsed grading service has got to go. The ANA has a few more years of the endorsement left. >>
There's a back sticker?! Take the $500K and hire a couple more graders and keep trun around times as advertised. That's what would be important to me and others. I don't care about the back sticker, only the front label and the guarantee that goes with it. I have NGC coins but they are very few and not my goal or standard.
You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!
Who gives a rat's patooey..I mean ..REALLY!? Chew on this The ANA prostitutes itself big time. Perfect example...a couple years back David Sundman was awarded the President's Award for promoting the hobby...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? We're talking about Littleton Coin Company-the biggest bunch of thieves on the planet except for maybe the carnival barkers on HSN! $500,000 is a drop in the bucket to PCGS. Didn't they recently certify their Nine millionth coin? Just do the math and figure how long it takes PCGS to make 500K. The bottom line is.. the voice of the people. Take the frickin 500 K and put it to good use -expanding facilities-hiring more graders and how about a re-commitment to excellence- at getting coins in and out on time graded accurately the FIRST time around!! THAT is what really counts. Integrity and consistency...not some stupid hologram that a bunch of crack dealers who make their own slabs could have bought in order to have the PNG logo on the back of their slabs! PCGS-you just save over half a mill-now do something constructive with it and be the proverbial "bigger man" and congratulate your competitors with one hand while cranking up the heat with the other! If you look at it the right way, you can really put the squeeze on NGC! David Sundman and Littleton Coin Company-that did it for me! Bull$#!+
PCGS - Use the $500k you saved on a worthless endorsement and hire a couple of new graders. I was at a local shop today talking to the owner and he was preparing a big batch of coins to go to NGC. These were almost all customer submissions. I asked, "Why NGC and not PCGS?" Answer: Quicker turnaround. Me: But PCGS slabs bring more $'s, on average when you sell. Response: Most of my customers don't know about a difference or really care. They want a certified/authenticated coin.
A couple of new graders, quicker turnaround times, and PCGS wins!!
Mike
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>So NGC outbid PCGS for the right to claim they are the "official grading service" of the PNG. NGC is also the "official grading service" of the ANA. ... Apparently NGC values these paid endorsements more than we do. Perhaps they feel they help the TV sales of NGC modern 70 coins. >>
homerunhall, are you saying that dealers in "TV sales" are quoting endorsement by png & ana to boost their sales?
i also still don't get where you say The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought. Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned. are you saying that ngc has not earned any respect in the marketplace? or value? would it also mean that when pcgs bought the endorsement when pcgs was the "official grading service" of the png?
Am I reading this wrong? Isn't the PNG a dealer association? It seems the endorsement is about growing or keeping a strong dealer body for the TPG's. Dealer support of a TPG holder is pretty important, as evidenced by the bidding. I have no idea what the endorsement actually means to the membership except some free submissions and some association dues, but it seems to be more about winning dealers than collectors.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< PCGS bid $504,000 for the three year period NGC bid $544,000 for the three year period The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought. Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned. >>
I can't help but wonder if that would have been the PR statement if the bid amounts had been reversed?
It is safe to say that if they had won the bidding war the PR would say "PCGS Again chosen as official grading service of the PNG" but since they lost they have to come out and make it seem like it is a worthless endorsement. Obviously behind the scenes they feel totally different or they would not have shelled out all the money the first time around and made a strong bid this time to be known as the official grading service of the PNG. Really makes you wonder why top management has to whine in public for losing the biding war, kinda of like two people bidding on a coin and when one loses they go public with their opinion on how overgraded and unattractive the coin really was so they are glad they did not win it even though earlier they where wished (offering $500,000) that they had won.
Although I don't feel that endorsements should be "bought", it is the way this is done, PCGS should have bid higher, (possibly tried one of those sniping programs) and saved money in the long run by not having to re-do holders. Like the coin shop guy said - a lot of people don't know the difference, and will go with the quickest service. Seems that PCGS has a lot of strikes against them these days, and need to pick up on a lot of things such as service and bidding proper amounts for important endorsements.
Being in advertising for many years, I feel that it IS an important aspect of any company. There are new collectors every day that don't know squat about the diff. grading companies and WILL go with the ones that are endorsed. Maybe a new and improved ad campaign - along with lowered pricing, quicker service and some great promos from time-to-time would turn things around for PCGS before things get more out of hand. I could care less who wins the endorsement, but if it was my company, I would be a little ticked about the leakage of information, and loss of bid. However, I think it would be in best interest of company to "shake hands" and congratulate the winner - even tho it appears to be more like war.
"Homerunhall" - of all people should know - one, two, three strikes - your out! PCGS needs to get on top of things NOW, to start turning some of these negs to positives. Good luck. IMHO
If you need any help, feel free to email me for a consultation. I do freelance for the highest bidder.
Well, whoopdy-freakin-doo for NGC. I'm not impressed. My PCGS graded coins are nicer, and sell much quicker than NGC graded coins. I have two slab boxes of NGC that go begging to sell for the last two years, My PCGS stuff is long gone. Apparently the PNG has no consideration for the collector getting less questionably graded coins.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
DOn't lose sleep over that - many lost their faith in PNG earlier in the year when they booted what's his name before the verdict was out...rememeber that? Was it Gillio?
PCGS is the most respected and conservative grading service , and I don't give a rats a-- who the ANA or PNG sponser is!
Just do what you're doing, and continue doing it honorably and with your head held high.
losing "endorsement" by the png is hardly a negative!
While you may feel so, I agree to disagree........Endorsements are a form of advertising, and advertising is a VERY important aspect of any 'successful' business plan.
While the people on the this forum, and knowledgeable collectors may know that PCGS is better, the newbies will not know this - thus the reason for advertising. There's a new collector born every 'X' minutes, and half of them will have no clue who PCGS is.......enter advertising endorsements.
like I said: I agree to disagree ......coins don't hurt people and the comparison, altho point taken, doesn't really compare comparable items. While I agree that the mob may have a 'business' plan, they don't advertise. While I agree that machine guns can be a good thing, they are not good in the hands of the wrong people.
Ah ha! I finally figured out what PNG stands for. It's not Pretentious Numismatic Guild as I once thought. It's PAID Numismatic Guild.
What I would like to know more about is how the grading comps work. In addition to cash, the Paid Numismatic Guild will receive grading for it's members. How does that work?? Third party grading is suppose to be unbiased. Will NGC know if coins that are submitted are PNG coins? Will they get preferential treatment?
David - Your post about NGC is quite self-serving and disingenuous. Why is it that, for the past five years, you never posted that PCGS had paid PNG to be the "official grading service?" Why is it that, if paid advertising is so important to NGC, but not PCGS, you bid $504,000 to have that position. You are right that respect has to be earned, and Rick Montgomery and NGC earn that respect every day through their exceptional customer service and through a consistent product, whether looser or tighter than PCGS with their grading standards. BTW, I guess these boards are all the free advertising you need to get with the spirit of this presidential election year's smear campaigns.
Exactly my point EE. You can't. D. Hall throws out assertions and innuendo that can't be proven. If you think it can, then you answer, is what he's saying true?
<< <i>David - Your post about NGC is quite self-serving and disingenuous. Why is it that, for the past five years, you never posted that PCGS had paid PNG to be the "official grading service?" Why is it that, if paid advertising is so important to NGC, but not PCGS, you bid $504,000 to have that position. You are right that respect has to be earned, and Rick Montgomery and NGC earn that respect every day through their exceptional customer service and through a consistent product, whether looser or tighter than PCGS with their grading standards. BTW, I guess these boards are all the free advertising you need to get with the spirit of this presidential election year's smear campaigns. >>
This post begs my saying that what HRH wrote is fairly common knowledge. That being said, with my knowledge base, I took it as a heads up for those who might question the removal of the PNG crap off the slab. There are a lot of money making ideas in all hobby's. It's up to us to decipher what really matters. When the ANA chose NGC as their "official" Grading service, I was more than a little upset. The people who need to be chastised are the ANA, and the PNG. They use misleading terminology. HRH did a lot of Newbies a favor by pointing out that these "credentials" are bought. I knew it already, as do a lot of collectors.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
Edited to add: I see that my first post to this thread, in which I was critical of Mr. Hall's original post, has been deleted. Ditto for some other forum members' posts. I think an already bad situation was made even worse. I will leave it at that.
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I could care less who endorses what grading companies. It's the coin and the quality of the coin that matters.
<< <i>homerunhall, are you saying that dealers in "TV sales" are quoting endorsement by png & ana to boost their sales? >>
Karl,
Yes, they do. The carnival barker on coin vault constantly shouts "OFFICIAL GRADING SERVICE OF THE ANA!" when selling NGC coins. One can only assume that "AND PNG!" will be added to that.
<< <i>The edited version sounds much more professional. >>
Yes. Interesting that it was "accidently" removed, then returns edited. I want to stress that I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't collect and have never collected slabbed coins, so I don't care about NGC or PCGS "coins". I do think when childish stuff like this happens, it gives critics valid arguments to make their point. This is way out of line for a professional organization and D. Halls original statement should have never been made.
<< <i><< homerunhall, are you saying that dealers in "TV sales" are quoting endorsement by png & ana to boost their sales? >>
Karl,
Yes, they do. The carnival barker on coin vault constantly shouts "OFFICIAL GRADING SERVICE OF THE ANA!" when selling NGC coins. One can only assume that "AND PNG!" will be added to that. >>
hey russ, i can honestly say i've never sat thru such a show long enough to hear 'em blab about that, so i wasn't aware they quote endorsements. i agree w/ you.
<< <i>For the past 5 years or so, PCGS has been the "official grading service" of the Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG.) We had been paying the PNG $40,000 per year, or $120,000 per three years.
This month the PNG accepted bids for a three year exclusive contract to be their "official grading service." They accepted bids from two grading services, PCGS and NGC. We made the business decision to bid a lot higher than the previous contract because of the competitive positions of the two grading services involved. PCGS bid $504,000 for the three year period in the form of $60,000 a year in cash and the remaining amount in free grading slots for PNG members. NGC bid $544,000 for the three year period in the form of $65,000 a year cash the first year and small increases in that cash amount for the second and third year along with free grading slots for PNG members. The bids were supposedly "sealed."
So NGC outbid PCGS for the right to claim they are the "official grading service" of the PNG. NGC is also the "official grading service" of the ANA. That too is a paid endorsement, and NGC outbid PCGS on that endorsement a few years back. We are not upset that we did not get this endorsement as we bid what we thought it was worth to us, all things considered. We did however, feel that buyers of third party certified coins deserve to know that these are paid endorsements...hence this post. >>
homerunhall, thanks for answering all my question except this:
<< <i>The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought. Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned. >>
i'd just like to know whether you personally believe that ngc has NOT earned "Respect and value in the marketplace".
As a member of the PNG Board, let me explain my personal opinion of what the PNG is, and our mandate. This is not an "official" statement but just my opinion, and why I believe the PNG is a great organization:
Plain and simply, the PNG is the ONLY professional organization of coin dealers that organizes itself for the betterment of the hobby. Just like the Chinese "bundle of sticks" proverb, as coin dealers we are stronger as a group, and every industry needs a watch-dog organization to keep it's participants honest. As a board, I can attest that all of us take our role very seriously and with the fullest integrity. When a PNG member dealer falls on suspicion, we are called upon to weigh in on the gravity of the situation. Likewise, scores of potentially litigious issues are settled privately and (affordably) through the PNG arbitration process.
The PNG is NOT:
1. an organization trying to make a profit 2. armed with any agenda beyond the integrity and consumer safety of numismatics as a whole
There is no smoking gun here. Mr. Hall was given ample time to bid on the "sponsorship" and NGC's bid simply came in higher. As a board, that's all we were presented with. If there are any accusations to be made beyond that scope, I would love to hear them in the proper forum.
The only direct response I will make to Mr. Hall is this: As a board member, I am offended that you would advertise (in negative fashion) to the world that "The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought." I feel 100% certain that these comments would not have been made if you had won the endorsement, so why make them now? But I will let the readers of this thread come to their own conclusions.
The main reason why PNG allows sponsors (and why I think it's a good idea), is that -- like other non-profit industry orgs -- we are always running a deficit. What a boon for us that a major grading service will sponsor us which helps us create more programs and do positive things for the hobby. We never intended for this to become a battle; quite the contrary. In has even been suggested by officials at PCGS that we allow multiple grading services to become sponsors in future years. I think that's a great idea, but it was never proposed until this contract was closed.
As all of the readers of this thread are avid collectors, dealers, and otherwise related to the hobby, we must all agree that our industry needs a responsible organization looking out for the overall guidance of the hobby. The ANA specifically acts ONLY in the interests of the collector, which is great, but dealers need a common voice as well. And, as collectors, you benefit from the ability to voice your grievances to the PNG as another medium to the ANA.
as coin dealers we are stronger as a group ......sounds like the mafia to me.
and every industry needs a watch-dog organization to keep it's participants honest.
Mr. Feigenbaum, what will the PNG use the $500,000 for? Will you have a golf outing for all of the members of the prestigious PNG country club? Will you use the half million dollars to advertise the PNG so that you can lure more members, thereby increasing revenue? Or, will the PNG use the money to help educate the public, such as put out a book on the perils of buying and sell coins, especially expensive coins in plastic? Will the PNG use the money to finally launch the "coin doctor posse" that never happened?
Also, please disclose the part of the deal that has to do with PNG dealers getting free grading through NGC. How does that work??
DavidLawrence said: The ANA specifically acts ONLY in the interests of the collector, which is great, but dealers need a common voice as well
Oh really? IMO, the ANA does everything in its power to AVOID acting in the interests of the collector. Barry Stuppler tried to act as collector's advocate, and he got slapped on the wrists for it. And to top it off, the current don't-make-waves ANA president removed Stuppler from his position as consumer advocate. So where are those "interests of the collector?"
P.S. In case anyone is wondering, I am not Barry Stuppler. We just share a first name.
<< <i>Mr lawrence, with all due respect, your comments are a self serving load of fertilizer.
All associations have an agenda. Non of them really seek to protect the collector.
Its all about money, ego, prestige and BS.Its about freebies and perks for the power
structure . I hope you really dont believe what you just said, because if you do ,you
are further into lala land then is beneficial. >>
I agree with you Bear, and I'm frankly surprised that the owner of a coin selling company with a following as large as DLRC would come out with a statement like this!This makes me question DLRC's agenda, as to the fact that a vast majority of their coins seem to be NGC graded.
Comments
about things that should not have been chirped. Or, there is a leak in the
plumbing and something leaked that should not have been leaked.
All in all, something feels sort of slimey. PCGS is better off pocketing the money
and getting on with the bussiness of bussiness.This is still the right Forum,
David is still the man and PCGS is still the #1 TPG Service.
Camelot
<< <i>My personal take is the following:
I happen to feel that David got a little ahead of himself and should apologize to NGC and PNG for making the statement he did. He should have stuck to the facts and wished NGC luck the next time the bidding takes place three years from now.
As to concerns to the other issues, they should have been brought up in a separate forum at another time as a separate topic for discussion. There may be legitimate issues here but I feel that right now, it does not look proper to bring up here on the very first day of the announcement.
The high road always works better! >>
Exactly! The statement was petty and unprofessional.
The only road to victory may in fact be the low road. In any event , what is done is done.
"The fickle finger of fate has writ and having done so ,moves on".
Camelot
With all due respect, if you're so against "paid endorsements" then why did you offer to pay? And why are you so against "modern 70 coins"? Does PCGS just assume that it's impossible that there's a good number of modern 70 coins out there?? I'd rather see some specific examples as to why you think the grading process is flawed across the street (e.g., demonstrate why a specific "70" coin doesn't deserve the grade). Respectfully, techeff.
Camelot
any service but instead put to the mebership a list of "accepted" or "member" grading services.
I have expressed very strongly to Chris Cippoleti of the ANA with Barry Stuppler's help that the idea of any endorsed grading service has got to go. The ANA has a few more years of the endorsement left.
I am in total agreement with your recommendation.
Well said.
Camelot
<< <i>Quite frankly, I do not believe that either the ANA and PNG should endorse any grading service. Both the ANA and PNG should instead take the aforementioned high road and not endorse
any service but instead put to the mebership a list of "accepted" or "member" grading services.
I have expressed very strongly to Chris Cippoleti of the ANA with Barry Stuppler's help that the idea of any endorsed grading service has got to go. The ANA has a few more years of the endorsement left. >>
Completely agree.
<< <i>should apologize to NGC and PNG for making the statement he did >>
why, what was untruthful?
<< <i>
<< <i>should apologize to NGC and PNG for making the statement he did >>
why, what was untruthful? >>
Was it true?
I hardily endorse this event or product
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
$500,000 is a drop in the bucket to PCGS. Didn't they recently certify their Nine millionth coin? Just do the math and figure how long it takes PCGS to make 500K. The bottom line is.. the voice of the people. Take the frickin 500 K and put it to good use -expanding facilities-hiring more graders and how about a re-commitment to excellence- at getting coins in and out on time graded accurately the FIRST time around!! THAT is what really counts. Integrity and consistency...not some stupid hologram that a bunch of crack dealers who make their own slabs could have bought in order to have the PNG logo on the back of their slabs!
PCGS-you just save over half a mill-now do something constructive with it and be the proverbial "bigger man" and congratulate your competitors with one hand while cranking up the heat with the other! If you look at it the right way, you can really put the squeeze on NGC!
David Sundman and Littleton Coin Company-that did it for me! Bull$#!+
A couple of new graders, quicker turnaround times, and PCGS wins!!
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>So NGC outbid PCGS for the right to claim they are the "official grading service" of the PNG. NGC is also the "official grading service" of the ANA. ... Apparently NGC values these paid endorsements more than we do. Perhaps they feel they help the TV sales of NGC modern 70 coins. >>
homerunhall, are you saying that dealers in "TV sales" are quoting endorsement by png & ana to boost their sales?
i also still don't get where you say The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought. Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned. are you saying that ngc has not earned any respect in the marketplace? or value? would it also mean that when pcgs bought the endorsement when pcgs was the "official grading service" of the png?
finally, what were the bids the last time around?
K S
Dave does this mean that it will be easier to cross NGC coins just to get em out of THAT plastic?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
NGC bid $544,000 for the three year period
The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought. Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned. >>
I can't help but wonder if that would have been the PR statement if the bid amounts had been reversed?
It is safe to say that if they had won the bidding war the PR would say "PCGS Again chosen as official grading service of the PNG" but since they lost they have to come out and make it seem like it is a worthless endorsement. Obviously behind the scenes they feel totally different or they would not have shelled out all the money the first time around and made a strong bid this time to be known as the official grading service of the PNG. Really makes you wonder why top management has to whine in public for losing the biding war, kinda of like two people bidding on a coin and when one loses they go public with their opinion on how overgraded and unattractive the coin really was so they are glad they did not win it even though earlier they where wished (offering $500,000) that they had won.
Being in advertising for many years, I feel that it IS an important aspect of any company. There are new collectors every day that don't know squat about the diff. grading companies and WILL go with the ones that are endorsed. Maybe a new and improved ad campaign - along with lowered pricing, quicker service and some great promos from time-to-time would turn things around for PCGS before things get more out of hand. I could care less who wins the endorsement, but if it was my company, I would be a little ticked about the leakage of information, and loss of bid. However, I think it would be in best interest of company to "shake hands" and congratulate the winner - even tho it appears to be more like war.
"Homerunhall" - of all people should know - one, two, three strikes - your out! PCGS needs to get on top of things NOW, to start turning some of these negs to positives. Good luck. IMHO
If you need any help, feel free to email me for a consultation. I do freelance for the highest bidder.
Well, whoopdy-freakin-doo for NGC. I'm not impressed. My PCGS graded coins are nicer, and sell much quicker than NGC graded coins. I have two slab boxes of NGC that go begging to sell for the last two years, My PCGS stuff is long gone. Apparently the PNG has no consideration for the collector getting less questionably graded coins.
<< <i>PCGS needs to get on top of things NOW, to start turning some of these negs to positives. >>
losing "endorsement" by the png is hardly a negative!
K S
DOn't lose sleep over that - many lost their faith in PNG earlier in the year when they booted what's his name before the verdict was out...rememeber that? Was it Gillio?
PCGS is the most respected and conservative grading service , and I don't give a rats a-- who the ANA or PNG sponser is!
Just do what you're doing, and continue doing it honorably and with your head held high.
Marc
While you may feel so, I agree to disagree........Endorsements are a form of advertising, and advertising is a VERY important aspect of any 'successful' business plan.
While the people on the this forum, and knowledgeable collectors may know that PCGS is better, the newbies will not know this - thus the reason for advertising. There's a new collector born every 'X' minutes, and half of them will have no clue who PCGS is.......enter advertising endorsements.
K S
<< <i>hey neptune, i know where your coming from. but having the mob endorse sales of machine gun is not a positive thing!
K S >>
Ah ha! I finally figured out what PNG stands for. It's not Pretentious Numismatic Guild as I once thought. It's PAID Numismatic Guild.
What I would like to know more about is how the grading comps work. In addition to cash, the Paid Numismatic Guild will receive grading for it's members. How does that work?? Third party grading is suppose to be unbiased. Will NGC know if coins that are submitted are PNG coins? Will they get preferential treatment?
Paid Numismatic Guild.............>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
<< <i>Donovan, try answering the question >>
Exactly my point EE. You can't. D. Hall throws out assertions and innuendo that can't be proven. If you think it can, then you answer, is what he's saying true?
<< <i>David - Your post about NGC is quite self-serving and disingenuous. Why is it that, for the past five years, you never posted that PCGS had paid PNG to be the "official grading service?" Why is it that, if paid advertising is so important to NGC, but not PCGS, you bid $504,000 to have that position. You are right that respect has to be earned, and Rick Montgomery and NGC earn that respect every day through their exceptional customer service and through a consistent product, whether looser or tighter than PCGS with their grading standards. BTW, I guess these boards are all the free advertising you need to get with the spirit of this presidential election year's smear campaigns. >>
This post begs my saying that what HRH wrote is fairly common knowledge. That being said, with my knowledge base, I took it as a heads up for those who might question the removal of the PNG crap off the slab. There are a lot of money making ideas in all hobby's. It's up to us to decipher what really matters. When the ANA chose NGC as their "official" Grading service, I was more than a little upset.
The people who need to be chastised are the ANA, and the PNG. They use misleading terminology. HRH did a lot of Newbies a favor by pointing out that these "credentials" are bought. I knew it already, as do a lot of collectors.
Edited to add: I see that my first post to this thread, in which I was critical of Mr. Hall's original post, has been deleted. Ditto for some other forum members' posts. I think an already bad situation was made even worse. I will leave it at that.
<< <i>homerunhall, are you saying that dealers in "TV sales" are quoting endorsement by png & ana to boost their sales? >>
Karl,
Yes, they do. The carnival barker on coin vault constantly shouts "OFFICIAL GRADING SERVICE OF THE ANA!" when selling NGC coins. One can only assume that "AND PNG!" will be added to that.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>The edited version sounds much more professional.
Yes. Interesting that it was "accidently" removed, then returns edited. I want to stress that I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't collect and have never collected slabbed coins, so I don't care about NGC or PCGS "coins". I do think when childish stuff like this happens, it gives critics valid arguments to make their point. This is way out of line for a professional organization and D. Halls original statement should have never been made.
<< <i><< homerunhall, are you saying that dealers in "TV sales" are quoting endorsement by png & ana to boost their sales? >>
Karl,
Yes, they do. The carnival barker on coin vault constantly shouts "OFFICIAL GRADING SERVICE OF THE ANA!" when selling NGC coins. One can only assume that "AND PNG!" will be added to that. >>
hey russ, i can honestly say i've never sat thru such a show long enough to hear 'em blab about that, so i wasn't aware they quote endorsements. i agree w/ you.
K S
You should watch it. It's genuinely some of the best comedy on TV.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>For the past 5 years or so, PCGS has been the "official grading service" of the Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG.) We had been paying the PNG $40,000 per year, or $120,000 per three years.
This month the PNG accepted bids for a three year exclusive contract to be their "official grading service." They accepted bids from two grading services, PCGS and NGC. We made the business decision to bid a lot higher than the previous contract because of the competitive positions of the two grading services involved. PCGS bid $504,000 for the three year period in the form of $60,000 a year in cash and the remaining amount in free grading slots for PNG members. NGC bid $544,000 for the three year period in the form of $65,000 a year cash the first year and small increases in that cash amount for the second and third year along with free grading slots for PNG members. The bids were supposedly "sealed."
So NGC outbid PCGS for the right to claim they are the "official grading service" of the PNG. NGC is also the "official grading service" of the ANA. That too is a paid endorsement, and NGC outbid PCGS on that endorsement a few years back. We are not upset that we did not get this endorsement as we bid what we thought it was worth to us, all things considered. We did however, feel that buyers of third party certified coins deserve to know that these are paid endorsements...hence this post. >>
homerunhall, thanks for answering all my question except this:
<< <i>The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought. Respect and value in the marketplace must be earned. >>
i'd just like to know whether you personally believe that ngc has NOT earned "Respect and value in the marketplace".
K S
<< <i>Karl, You should watch it. It's genuinely some of the best comedy on TV. >>
guess i'll have to catch the reruns on "nickelodeon"!
K S
Dork, have you ever made a comment that was positive
about anything at any time. Your always so negetive ,you
would make an excellent electron.
Camelot
K S
Plain and simply, the PNG is the ONLY professional organization of coin dealers that organizes itself for the betterment of the hobby. Just like the Chinese "bundle of sticks" proverb, as coin dealers we are stronger as a group, and every industry needs a watch-dog organization to keep it's participants honest. As a board, I can attest that all of us take our role very seriously and with the fullest integrity. When a PNG member dealer falls on suspicion, we are called upon to weigh in on the gravity of the situation. Likewise, scores of potentially litigious issues are settled privately and (affordably) through the PNG arbitration process.
The PNG is NOT:
1. an organization trying to make a profit
2. armed with any agenda beyond the integrity and consumer safety of numismatics as a whole
There is no smoking gun here. Mr. Hall was given ample time to bid on the "sponsorship" and NGC's bid simply came in higher. As a board, that's all we were presented with. If there are any accusations to be made beyond that scope, I would love to hear them in the proper forum.
The only direct response I will make to Mr. Hall is this: As a board member, I am offended that you would advertise (in negative fashion) to the world that "The bottom line is that an endorsement can be bought." I feel 100% certain that these comments would not have been made if you had won the endorsement, so why make them now? But I will let the readers of this thread come to their own conclusions.
The main reason why PNG allows sponsors (and why I think it's a good idea), is that -- like other non-profit industry orgs -- we are always running a deficit. What a boon for us that a major grading service will sponsor us which helps us create more programs and do positive things for the hobby. We never intended for this to become a battle; quite the contrary. In has even been suggested by officials at PCGS that we allow multiple grading services to become sponsors in future years. I think that's a great idea, but it was never proposed until this contract was closed.
As all of the readers of this thread are avid collectors, dealers, and otherwise related to the hobby, we must all agree that our industry needs a responsible organization looking out for the overall guidance of the hobby. The ANA specifically acts ONLY in the interests of the collector, which is great, but dealers need a common voice as well. And, as collectors, you benefit from the ability to voice your grievances to the PNG as another medium to the ANA.
Camelot
All associations have an agenda. Non of them really seek to protect the collector.
Its all about money, ego, prestige and BS.Its about freebies and perks for the power
structure .
are further into lala land then is beneficial.
Camelot
I have one question and it is not argumentative in nature - simple curiosity:
What does PNG do with all that free grading it obtains from this bidding process/awarded bid, and who get it and benefits from it?
Wondercoin
and every industry needs a watch-dog organization to keep it's participants honest.
Mr. Feigenbaum, what will the PNG use the $500,000 for? Will you have a golf outing for all of the members of the prestigious PNG country club? Will you use the half million dollars to advertise the PNG so that you can lure more members, thereby increasing revenue? Or, will the PNG use the money to help educate the public, such as put out a book on the perils of buying and sell coins, especially expensive coins in plastic? Will the PNG use the money to finally launch the "coin doctor posse" that never happened?
Also, please disclose the part of the deal that has to do with PNG dealers getting free grading through NGC. How does that work??
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The ANA specifically acts ONLY in the interests of the collector, which is great, but dealers need a common voice as well
Oh really? IMO, the ANA does everything in its power to AVOID acting in the interests of the collector. Barry Stuppler tried to act as collector's advocate, and he got slapped on the wrists for it. And to top it off, the current don't-make-waves ANA president removed Stuppler from his position as consumer advocate. So where are those "interests of the collector?"
P.S. In case anyone is wondering, I am not Barry Stuppler. We just share a first name.
<< <i>Mr lawrence, with all due respect, your comments are a self serving load of fertilizer.
All associations have an agenda. Non of them really seek to protect the collector.
Its all about money, ego, prestige and BS.Its about freebies and perks for the power
structure .
are further into lala land then is beneficial. >>
I agree with you Bear, and I'm frankly surprised that the owner of a coin selling company with a following as large as DLRC would come out with a statement like this! This makes me question DLRC's agenda, as to the fact that a vast majority of their coins seem to be NGC graded.