Mark - honestly who can realy tell an AU58 from a pic on the internet? If there is that much wear that you could tell from a crappy pic then its probably not an AU58 and really an AU55 or lower.
Interesting, that I give you guys a chance to be proclaimed grading geniuses and this thread gets so many replies.
I think next time I will experiment with the word "idiot" in the title instead, and see what happens. On second thought, it would look like a flame thread and receive even more responses - never mind.
I think the top one qualifies as uncirculated more than the bottom one because the top one has what appears to be more uniform, even mint luster throughout. Also, the bottom one has what appears to be rubbing on some of the high points, obverse and reverse, as Lawman pointed out so eloquently, and the luster is more uneven, as if it's been rubbed from circulation.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
I don't care what the tag on the holder says, but I see a line of rub on the first coin on the cheek. I would call it AU58. Then again, it is hard to grade just from a picture. Rub is found by rotating a coin under a single point light source looking for breaks in the luster. I can't do that from a computer picture.
i'd say the top coin is the AU58 and the bottom the MS61. to my eye they look essentially the same as far as surface quality and the difference in what we see in the luster is to me negligible. my guess is based on the rims.
then there's always the CG1-trick-thread-element wherein we've all come to trust you and you've posted the same coin twice with altered lighting or some other sleight of hand alteration. i know you'd never do that, but i'd think of it!!
I don't kn ow gold very well, but I would say the top one graded 61 because of the very good luster and color it has. The bottom one 58 as it has a dull look to it.
Grading Genius? Thanks for the complement that you will wish was never mentioned... and if I am wrong, I can always blame the scan or the computer
Top coin AU58...why? I do not like the fields. The chatter seems to be heavy enough to prevent an MS grade. Also, I tend to think the coin is not original which is a big minus from my personal perspective.
The bottom coin MS61...why? I like the color better and the fields do not look as busy with chatter as in the top coin. The problem with this coin is that the color and overall appearance of the coin may be perceived as light wear/cabinet friction or whatever this week's politically correct terminology may be. I think the bottom coin is the better choice of the two for eye appeal.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I can't tell and obviously neither can a lot of other grading geniuses. Which is the WHOLE point of buying slabbed coins. A mans got to know his limitations. JMHO-- Steve
One of the two 1850 Liberty Double Eagles below has been graded AU58 by a major grading company. The other has been graded MS61 by the same company.
Mark - I'm sure it's no surprise to you that the two coins appear to be the identical grade in your images. I'm going to guess that both coins have been graded 58 in the past and that both are now graded 61. If so, great trick question!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
sorry, but I'm not even gonna venture as neither are better than 53-55 at most - which really puts me in total agreement with the infamous Dorkarl Perhaps you should add "and which is overgraded, and by how much and why"
Which brings me back to buy the coin not the plastic which we hear so many times.
I'm going to take a shot at this without looking at the replies.
First, this is extremely difficult to do from a scan as there is no way to rotate the coin and check for luster breaks. But here are my observations.
First coin has more features remaining. This could be a better strike or the second coin could have wear. However, given the many places where the second coin has worse strike (tops of stars 6-8, hair, reverse eagle claws, reverse stars), I will attribute this to strike and not immediately to wear.
First coin has more chatter in the fields. It's possible that these marks go beyond bag marks and become an indication of circulation wear.
Both coins exhibit luster, though the second has cleaner luster IMO.
I would say first coin graded AU58, second MS61. With the number of marks on the first coin, if it isn't a 58, I don't see how it could do better than a 60.
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Wouldn't be surprised seeing either one 61 or 58, but I think the top one has the bag marks MORE consistent with a 61. It also APPEARS to have more definition, also consistent with a MS grade; but I can't comfortably evaluate the luster and possible wear. Based on the image I suspect they could also be acceptably graded AU50 or 53 and 58 respectively.
The top coin looks like a better strike. It is hard to determine wear on the coin from the scan but I think all the marks in the fields indicates that it probably saw a little bit of circulation (AU).
The bottom coin looks like it has a mushy strike which appears like wear compared to the first coin but I don't think it is wear, just a weak strike. The fields on this coin do not show the kind of "circulation" marks that the first coin has (MS).
To me this is another example of a 58 #2 being a nicer coin than the top a 61 because of the absense of excessive chatter (comparatively speaking) even though it may be lightly circulated.........
Unofficially, the vote was 24 for the top coin being the MS61 vs. 18 for the bottom coin being the 61. And, your consensus was correct, according to the grades assigned by NGC.
A few comments:
When I do threads like this, contrary to what someone might suspect now and then (Keets ands Andy in this particular case) there is and will be no trickery involved - it's tough enough to do this stuff when it's on the up and up.
I firmly believe and have repeated on many occasions, that on one, no matter how expert a grader, can consistently grade accurately from images - as some have pointed out, you need to be able to tilt and rotate a coin under proper lighting, etc.
One of the points I wanted to make, was the difficulty in distinguishing between an AU58 and an MS61. It might sound like a 3 point difference, but that difference is much less than that between an MS61 and an MS64, for example.
In this particular case, I did not have the two coins in front of me to view. However, the first one appears to have a bit more luster or vibrancy to it. Yes, it might have as much or more chatter, but large gold coins can have LOTS of chatter and still easily grade above MS60.
The first coin also appears to have more detail in a number of areas, though, without an in-person examination, it's almost impossible to know if that is from strike or wear.
To some collectors, these very subtle differences are extremely important and to others they are meaningless, just as the differences between an MS67 and an MS68 might matter to some and not others. I say, to each his own - let others pursue, collect and enjoy whatever THEY like, regardless of what I might think...unless they ask me, in which case.........
I was wrong, new to collecting, that's why I will only purchase graded coins. Thanks for reaffirming my total lack of knowledge in grading. But I'm learning!
<< <i>One of the points I wanted to make, was the difficulty in distinguishing between an AU58 and an MS61. It might sound like a 3 point difference, but that difference is much less than that between an MS61 and an MS64, for example. >>
Not really in this case, at least not to the tune of the usual price difference between MS-61 and 64. With some better date modern coins and Morgan and Peace silver dollar, the price difference between AU-58 and MS-61 can be significant. With many early coins, and some early to mid 19th century gold coins, it may not be that much difference. As I wrote earlier, I don't think that either of these double eagles is Mint State. It might say "MS" on the holder, but very few Type I double eagles that are in MS-61 or 62 holders are really Mint State. They are only nice AUs. The same goes for Classic Head (1834-9) gold coins. You won't get an MS coin in a MS-61 or 62 holder. Heck that MS-63 Classic Head $5 I saw wasn't Unc. either. I did see a real Unc. in an MS-64 holder, however.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
In all seriousness for just a moment... I think it was a close call and it confirms something I was going to write at the time I offered my opinion. The top coin had lustre that was more apparent and the grading services like lustre whether the surfaces are original or not... just an observation that has alittle too much truth to it... especially for coins like this.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Comments
I think next time I will experiment with the word "idiot" in the title instead, and see what happens. On second thought, it would look like a flame thread and receive even more responses - never mind.
09/07/2006
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
FrederickCoinClub
Bottom 58
i'd say the top coin is the AU58 and the bottom the MS61. to my eye they look essentially the same as far as surface quality and the difference in what we see in the luster is to me negligible. my guess is based on the rims.
then there's always the CG1-trick-thread-element wherein we've all come to trust you and you've posted the same coin twice with altered lighting or some other sleight of hand alteration. i know you'd never do that, but i'd think of it!!
al h.
Top coin AU58...why? I do not like the fields. The chatter seems to be heavy enough to prevent an MS grade. Also, I tend to think the coin is not original which is a big minus from my personal perspective.
The bottom coin MS61...why? I like the color better and the fields do not look as busy with chatter as in the top coin. The problem with this coin is that the color and overall appearance of the coin may be perceived as light wear/cabinet friction or whatever this week's politically correct terminology may be. I think the bottom coin is the better choice of the two for eye appeal.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Mark - I'm sure it's no surprise to you that the two coins appear to be the identical grade in your images. I'm going to guess that both coins have been graded 58 in the past and that both are now graded 61. If so, great trick question!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>One of the two coins was thrown at David Gest by Liza Minnelli and the other was graded by a major grading service >>
Is this a trick question? Coinguy?
sorry, but I'm not even gonna venture as neither are better than 53-55 at most - which really puts me in total agreement with the infamous Dorkarl
Perhaps you should add "and which is overgraded, and by how much and why"
Which brings me back to buy the coin not the plastic which we hear so many times.
JMHO
Marc
MS
First, this is extremely difficult to do from a scan as there is no way to rotate the coin and check for luster breaks. But here are my observations.
First coin has more features remaining. This could be a better strike or the second coin could have wear. However, given the many places where the second coin has worse strike (tops of stars 6-8, hair, reverse eagle claws, reverse stars), I will attribute this to strike and not immediately to wear.
First coin has more chatter in the fields. It's possible that these marks go beyond bag marks and become an indication of circulation wear.
Both coins exhibit luster, though the second has cleaner luster IMO.
I would say first coin graded AU58, second MS61. With the number of marks on the first coin, if it isn't a 58, I don't see how it could do better than a 60.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
The bottom coin looks like it has a mushy strike which appears like wear compared to the first coin but I don't think it is wear, just a weak strike. The fields on this coin do not show the kind of "circulation" marks that the first coin has (MS).
Joe. (Unemployed Coin Grader)
MS.
Bottom one seems to have better luster in certain protected areas and reflects light in an MS pattern.
Unofficially, the vote was 24 for the top coin being the MS61 vs. 18 for the bottom coin being the 61. And, your consensus was correct, according to the grades assigned by NGC.
A few comments:
When I do threads like this, contrary to what someone might suspect now and then (Keets ands Andy in this particular case) there is and will be no trickery involved - it's tough enough to do this stuff when it's on the up and up.
I firmly believe and have repeated on many occasions, that on one, no matter how expert a grader, can consistently grade accurately from images - as some have pointed out, you need to be able to tilt and rotate a coin under proper lighting, etc.
One of the points I wanted to make, was the difficulty in distinguishing between an AU58 and an MS61. It might sound like a 3 point difference, but that difference is much less than that between an MS61 and an MS64, for example.
In this particular case, I did not have the two coins in front of me to view. However, the first one appears to have a bit more luster or vibrancy to it. Yes, it might have as much or more chatter, but large gold coins can have LOTS of chatter and still easily grade above MS60.
The first coin also appears to have more detail in a number of areas, though, without an in-person examination, it's almost impossible to know if that is from strike or wear.
To some collectors, these very subtle differences are extremely important and to others they are meaningless, just as the differences between an MS67 and an MS68 might matter to some and not others. I say, to each his own - let others pursue, collect and enjoy whatever THEY like, regardless of what I might think...unless they ask me, in which case.........
Thanks for the challange Mark.
09/07/2006
Clankeye
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
It's okay KUCH so is everyone else around here
Clankeye
Neil
<< <i>One of the points I wanted to make, was the difficulty in distinguishing between an AU58 and an MS61. It might sound like a 3 point difference, but that difference is much less than that between an MS61 and an MS64, for example.
>>
Not really in this case, at least not to the tune of the usual price difference between MS-61 and 64. With some better date modern coins and Morgan and Peace silver dollar, the price difference between AU-58 and MS-61 can be significant. With many early coins, and some early to mid 19th century gold coins, it may not be that much difference. As I wrote earlier, I don't think that either of these double eagles is Mint State. It might say "MS" on the holder, but very few Type I double eagles that are in MS-61 or 62 holders are really Mint State. They are only nice AUs. The same goes for Classic Head (1834-9) gold coins. You won't get an MS coin in a MS-61 or 62 holder. Heck that MS-63 Classic Head $5 I saw wasn't Unc. either. I did see a real Unc. in an MS-64 holder, however.
In all seriousness for just a moment... I think it was a close call and it confirms something I was going to write at the time I offered my opinion. The top coin had lustre that was more apparent and the grading services like lustre whether the surfaces are original or not... just an observation that has alittle too much truth to it... especially for coins like this.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Good test, do more