ICG overgraded this Morgan, what options do I have?

jmcu12 · December 20, 2003 1:47AM

I purchased this 1881-S Morgan and I am very much questioning their grade. They view it as a 67 while I would say it is a 66 or 65.

1. What are your opinions on the grade?
2. Is ICG good at paying the price difference or replacing the coin?
3. Or should I cut my losses and take this as a rather expensive lesson learned NOT to buy ICG? While I did not pay 67 money for it, I did pay solid 66 money. Either way I did not get what I paid for it; and returning it is not an option either.

BillJones · December 20, 2003 1:51AM

It's hard to grade these coins by a scan, but an MS-67 1881-S dollar should have very, very impressive luster. That's the way the date comes. Some level of P-L is the RULE NOT THE EXCEPTION.

This coin has a "white" appearance that makes it looked dipped to me and not lightly dipped. As such I don’t see an MS-67 here. BUT how do you win the argument with ICG?

There is a good reason why their coins sell for less money. It has something to do with consistency and standards.

gemtone65 · December 20, 2003 1:53AM

I'm not sure what your options are with ICG. However, if you paid MS66 money for what you think is a MS66 coin graded by, say, PCGS or NGC, what's your concern? The coin itself appears clean enough for a 66, so the remaining issue is luster. If the luster is there, it seems to me you have a very nice coin.

kieferscoins · December 20, 2003 1:56AM

I believe ICG will re-slab it for free, but not pay the difference from a 66 to a 67, because you paid 66 money for it and you didn't get ripped off even if it was overgraded by one point.

Cameron Kiefer

Placid · December 20, 2003 2:04AM

Looks pretty nice to me. Can't judge luster from a picture well.
I think it would get at least a 66 at pcgs if the luster is nice.

BigAl · December 20, 2003 2:18AM

I believe once you get to 66, 67+ every sevice-ngc, anacs, & icg overgrades by a point compared to pcgs in morgans--you have to look at ea. coin individually and make your own assessment of value. I've had great luck cracking icg 61's & 62's and having them graded 62 & 63 at pcgs. I've even had a few icg 63's go to 64 at pcgs. I believe they're a solid grading service for morgans in the lower grades. Tough to tell grade by a scan, but if you don't like the coin, sell it on ebay and get your money back (if returning it is out of the question), otherwise if you just don't feel comfortable with the grade, send it to pcgs and have them cross at any grade...I bet they'll send it back in a 66 holder, which is what you paid for it.

wingedliberty · December 20, 2003 2:23AM

Cross it to PCGS or NGC, this Morgan is a lock 67 all day long.

jbsteven · December 20, 2003 2:25AM

<< I believe once you get to 66, 67+ every sevice-ngc, anacs, & icg overgrades by a point compared to pcgs in morgans >>

BigAL

I disagree with you in reguards to NGC. Not ALL NGC 66+ Morgans are overgraded by 1 point by PCGS standards. Example is that I had a NGC ms65DMPL Morgan regrade as a 66PL at NGC then sent it in raw to PCGS and they graded it 67PL.

I will agree that PCGS standards are a LITTLE tighter on ms67 and up coins MOST of the time. But try and get a ms68 Morgan graded at NGC! this is tough.

MacCoin · December 20, 2003 2:38AM

its to hard to tell from a picture but it sure looks nice to me

XpipedreamR · December 20, 2003 2:39AM

ICG overgrading? I don't think so...

Your pics

BillJones · December 20, 2003 2:45AM

If this were a New Orleans mint dollar you would have a case for an MS-67, but it's an 1881-S. Those coins come well-struck and very lusterous. Buy the looks of it, it could go as low as 64+ because of the haze. Bright luster is a big deal with these coins, bigger than it is for most dollars.

jeffnpcb · December 20, 2003 2:56AM

The haze appears to be light refraction through the plastic. That is a very well struck and not dinged up or scracthed like most I've seen. Appears that all the high points are there. I've heard that Morgans were one area ICG does really well!

I don't understand the grief or the beef!

BillJones · December 20, 2003 2:59AM

Well if the haze in on the plastic and the coin is bright white, then it's typical for an 1881-S and probably the higher grades that have been mentioned. It's hard to grade Mint State coins from scans and pictures.

XpipedreamR · December 20, 2003 3:09AM

What were the circumstances of the purchase, and why can't you return it? Did you see it before you got it?

Just curious.

DCAMFranklin · December 20, 2003 3:12AM

That is definitely a very well struck coin, as is expected for that year. I agree that some of the "haze" is created by the holder. It sure appears to be a solid 66 and is definitely NOT a 64+.

Here is ICG's guarantee: "If the coin submitted for review by the Customer receives a lower grade under ICG’s internal review practices than the grade originally assigned, ICG shall, at ICG’s option, either (a) replace the coin, or (b) pay any difference between the current fair market value of such coin at the newly established grade and the current market value of the grade originally assigned to such coin."

You can go here: Guarantee

Speak with James Taylor at 877-221-4424. He is one of the absolute finest in resolving customer service issues. I bet you will find that you are treated very well.

BigAl · December 20, 2003 3:39AM

<>

JB,
Yes this is a grandiose statement which is obviously untrue on its face, but I believe its jist has merit. If someone offered me a ms67 or ms68 morgan sight unseen, I'd not have much difficulty in making the decision to choose pcgs. However, under similar circumstances with an ms62-ms64 morgan, I'd have a much tougher time deciding which coin to choose. I would probably feel comfortable with pcgs, ngc, or icg (although I would probably exclude anacs). As far as PL's are concerned, good luck crossing any ngc or anacs PL to pcgs.

jbsteven · December 20, 2003 4:15AM

BigAL

I agree that I would have to see a ICG PL or DMPL in person to make a final judgement to purchase.

<< good luck crossing any ngc or anacs PL to pcgs >>

but it can work in someones favor to buy a PCGS PL Morgan and send it into NGC since NGC standards are a little looser on DMPL's. This has worked in my favor a few times. Personally I think PCGS is a little too tight on PL's and DMPL's.

I have also bought many non PL PCGS graded Morgans and had them come back PL from NGC.

sinin1 · December 20, 2003 4:26AM

One option is to send it to ICG for their grade guarantee - will cost you near $40 for round trip and letting them tell you why they believe it is a MS67 - (exercise in futility?)

Another option is sell it like it is -> Heritage or Teletrade have sales all the time, not sure of what the minimums are for consigning

Another option is crack it out and send it to your favorite grading company to see how they feel your coin should be graded in their slab

Another option is to keep it until you die and let your heirs decide what to do with it

??? up to you ?? take potential loss now (may be a gain) - or wait awhile and do it later

do not get to frustrated about this coin - there will be many more to come and go in your collection, use it to learn from

jdimmick · December 20, 2003 4:45AM

The coin looks 66. Anyway, if you sent it back to ICG, all they will do is regrade at 67 and send it back to you in a new fresh 67 holder, so basically you would have wasted the time and money trying under the regrade service. If you only have 66 money in it, then your okay from the get go. If you dont like it, then sell it in the holder its in.

MICHAELDIXON · December 20, 2003 6:23AM

I traded for an ICG Morgan dollar that was graded MS65. The coin was not MS65 in my book and I was ashamed to sell a 4 coin in a 5 holder. The difference between a 64 and 65 being about $100. I called James Taylor and talked with him about it and told him it did not belong in a 5 holder. He requested I send it back to his attention, which I did. A few days later, James called and said the graders had determined it to be a 64 and apologized. He sent me the Greysheet bid difference between a 64 and 65 and several free submissions. So...I've had good luck on their guarantee.

DCAMFranklin · December 20, 2003 6:42AM

<< will cost you near $40 for round trip and letting them tell you why they believe it is a MS67 - (exercise in futility?) >>

Do you believe an attempt at grade guarantee with PCGS & NGC to be the same "exercise in futility"? Please read MICHAELDIXON's response.

Wondo · December 20, 2003 6:57AM

When was the last time that someone sold a new Corvette at a used Corvette price? I don't see how you could expect to get money back when you in effect tried to rip the coin and just might have come out even. Even at this time of year, there is no Santa Claus.

stman · December 20, 2003 7:08AM

<< When was the last time that someone sold a new Corvette at a used Corvette price? I don't see how you could expect to get money back when you in effect tried to rip the coin and just might have come out even. Even at this time of year, there is no Santa Claus. >>

I was hoping someone else would finally be brutally honest this time.

Thanks!!!!!

jmcu12 · December 20, 2003 11:45AM

Wondo & stman;

That was harsh and I would caution you both on making such judgments when you do not know the whole story. I was simply asking for an opinion, not a libalist statement on your behalf. I am NOT looking to make money on this deal, only to make sure that I (along with others in the hobby, as this is what it is for me) get a fair shake; I am NOT trying to 'RIP' anyone.......

and I take great exception to the notion that you both have explicitly accused me.

ICG, PCGS, NGC, ACG, PCI, ANACS, SEGS, etc. ALL should be accountable for the products they provide. Unless we, as collectors and/or dealers, do something about it, no one else will.

So what do you say, why don't we jump on the bandwagon and demand that the term consistancy be introduced to the business of slabbing coins?

Good day.

jdimmick · December 20, 2003 11:54AM

Mdixon,

Thanks for sharing that, it makes me feel a little better about the guarantee programs. Your story does show thier is some substance to the services guarantee program even when its questionable by only a point or two, not just blantant mistakes.

jim

stman · December 20, 2003 11:54AM

My feeling is you said you paid 66 money, it very well may be a 66, so what's the problem? You evidently bought with caution paying 66 money. BTW, You sound like you are threatening a lawsuit with your statement. You a Lawyer? So sue me. You ask for opinions on a public forum, then you don't like a couple and caution us? Sorry I couldn't stick up for you there big fella. Happy Holidays to you and yours.

Wondo · December 20, 2003 12:04PM

<< While I did not pay 67 money for it, I did pay solid 66 money >>

jmcu12,

What did you expect to get?

As for libelous statements, you asked for opinions of your situation and I gave you mine.

<< Either way I did not get what I paid for it >>

Seems to me that is exactly what you got. I do not understand why you think there would be recourse available or warranted.

jmcu12 · December 20, 2003 12:21PM

No, I am not a lawyer, and I am not going to sue; this is indeed a public forum and all 'opinions' are welcome. I simply wanted to express my frustration with a perceived accusation. If that was not your intentions then I apologize.

I wish you both happy holidays.

jmcu12.

sinin1 · December 20, 2003 12:25PM

In ICG's opinion, they are consistent

Have you watched "grading mint state coins' from the ANA? - J.P. Martin is head grader at ICG.

jmcu12, if you feel an ICG MS67 should be the same as a NGC MS67 should be the same as a PCGS MS67 should be the same as an NTC MS67 or an ACG MS67, you have much to learn - and do it quick before you buy many more $500 coins

I do not know the entire story about MichaelDixons dollar OR his relationship to Jim Taylor or the other top dogs at ICG - I suppose if I had known the guy AND I was a lot better grader, I might have gotten the same result - but just Joe Blow off the street, will miss his coin for a few weeks while they look at it.

Heck, even ANA can not agree themselves - sure maybe you could give the board 5 MS65's and they could tell you which ones where upper, middle, lower 'for the grade' = but if you give them those same copins raw - they would grade them between MS63 and MS67 - so who is right?

Now you do not feel the coin is an MS67, you will be more selective on the future MS67's you buy.

jmcu12 · December 20, 2003 1:08PM

sinin1,

Yes I feel they should all grade the same, and I dont think that is too much to ask. While I have not been a dealer and I have not been in the coin hobby for 30+ years, I have been a collector/consumer for over 10 years and I know that my experience is valid. I believe that there are certain things that we, as consumers should be able to count on. We grade coins on a scale of 1-70 and most everyone subscribes to this scale. Now if this scale really means anything (and perhaps your opinion of that scale may differ) then that scale should be comparable from company to company and each company should be held accountable.

I have been accused by friends and family of being too idealistic from time to time, and yes, I know I am being so now. But as I have been made aware, and quite rightfully so, this is 'my' opinion.

Thank you for yours 'sinin 1'.

Best Regards.

sinin1 · December 20, 2003 10:24PM

the nature of 'grading' is not an exact science - it is not like someone can put a coin on a scale and say this 1924 Peace dollar is 26.7264 grams (well some scales/people can do that)

the ANA has looked at some sort of 'certification' for professional graders and have not done anything yet -

Even PCGS has times when there are coins that are 'borderline' for grade or designation
if you have a proof quarter that is no question CAM and top end borderline DCAM
AND the coin is PR67 top end / PR68 low end - they occasionally will flip grade between
PR 68 CAM and PR 67 DCAM

PCGS has many of the top graders in the country AND a extensive collection/grading set that they occassionally reference recheck

you are expecting black and white when many times it is grey

people have tried 'computer grading' to standardize scores such as you wish - maybe that could be your new life mission - "perfect an optical computerized grading platform" - I am sure if/when it is accomplished, it will be greatly used

Barry · December 20, 2003 10:56PM

<< ICG, PCGS, NGC, ACG, PCI, ANACS, SEGS, etc. ALL should be accountable for the products they provide. Unless we, as collectors and/or dealers, do something about it, no one else will.
>>

They should be, but they're not. That's why there are different prices for the same grade in different companies' slabs.

Collectors have pretty much put ACG out of business. Unfortunately, we have not been as lucky with some of the newer bottom dwellers (yet).

wayneherndon · December 20, 2003 11:08PM

Sometimes ICG grades the same as PCGS.

ICG overgraded this Morgan, what options do I have?

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