Last year there were two people who thought it was worth $39,000 and one thought it was worth $100 more. Since he is the seller and out of the picture now, it will require a 3rd person to step up to the $39k level if the earlier underbidder still has an interest. I predict he does not.
So I think the coin itself will sell for $18 and the PCGS slab will sell for $18,750 for a total of
<< <i>oh, and as for my guess, $1.28. someone's gotta be the low guesser. >>
Come on Zenny - be realistic, the slabbing fee (economy) is $10 (not counting the postage)! So figure $1.28 for the coin, $10 slabbing fee (2 month turn around) $3.72 for the postage and insurance = $15! - I'm gonna guess that coin in a slab with the properly designated grade (PR66RD DCAM) is a $15 coin!!
>>
my guess was not based on the coin, just the previous low guess!
i reckon realistically it's probably worth 15 bucks....
probably
yeah, sure - ask my wife ahhh Morgan Fairchild, yeah that's the ticket
I think this coin has a chance of beating the last price. This will show that people who collect these have no real care in what the coin looks like, only what the number says. And the great thing is, cladking will come up with a variety of reasons why it should be worth it.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
<< <i>I think this coin has a chance of beating the last price. This will show that people who collect these have no real care in what the coin looks like, only what the number says. And the great thing is, cladking will come up with a variety of reasons why it should be worth it. >>
Well, you're finally almost half right. I figured no matter what price it went for Dbldie55 would find a way to bash someone or something. $1 or $100,000, there are always some things which are sure things.
There is a variety of reasons that the coin will be worth its new price; supply and demand- though this may as well be rocket science for some observers.
There is a variety of reasons that the coin will be worth its new price; supply and demand
Yup - they just aren't making inserts like that anymore.
edited to add: cladking, why the kneejerk defense of this insert collecting phenomena? It's one thing to defend moderns, quite another to defend huge prices paid for a coin [of any era] not up to snuff. If, as you preach, there is a new wave of collectors to whom microscopic differences mean everything, how can you ignore the macroscopic imperfections of this coin?
The insert will hammer at $52,500 to an internet or phone bidder unfamiliar with the coin. The collecting world will then be subjected to whining and screaming about Heritage's Signature Sale return policy for several months until the attorneys get everything worked out.
<< <i>There is a variety of reasons that the coin will be worth its new price; supply and demand
Yup - they just aren't making inserts like that anymore.
edited to add: cladking, why the kneejerk defense of this insert collecting phenomena? It's one thing to defend moderns, quite another to defend huge prices paid for a coin [of any era] not up to snuff. If, as you preach, there is a new wave of collectors to whom microscopic differences mean everything, how can you ignore the macroscopic imperfections of this coin? >>
There were ample opportunities in this thread to engage in a knee jerk defence of moderns. Certainly it appeared some attacked this coin as a knee jerk response, but if you go back and read my post you'll see I neither defended this coin nor the purchaser. I merely stated the obvious; whether the coin sells for $1 or $100,000 there will be those who attack the coin, the buyer and the wisdom of paying more than melt value for anything and they will use the results of the auction to make their point. There are no other determinants of price than supply and demand. Attacking these or those who study, collect, or love any coins is tilting at windmills far in excess of anything Don Quixoti could envision.
I do not consider that the modern era commenced until 1965. To my mind a defining characteristic of modern is that the coin was nearly completely ignored from the day it was minted. While 1963 cents may have recieved no more respect than most moderns, they were collected by significant numbers of people.
I do not consider that the modern era commenced until 1965. To my mind a defining characteristic of modern is that the coin was nearly completely ignored from the day it was minted. While 1963 cents may have recieved no more respect than most moderns, they were collected by significant numbers of people.
I think I understand what you are getting at - that the 'modern phenomena' as you define it involves junk clad that people consider pocket change and nothing else and therefore ignore. And as a result you consider this 1963 proof, and other such proofs, to be a separate issue.
I happen to agree that this coin doesn't fit the 'modern phenomena' at all. This coin is and always was about the insert.
<< <i>There were ample opportunities in this thread to engage in a knee jerk defence of moderns. Certainly it appeared some attacked this coin as a knee jerk response, but if you go back and read my post you'll see I neither defended this coin nor the purchaser. I merely stated the obvious; whether the coin sells for $1 or $100,000 there will be those who attack the coin, the buyer and the wisdom of paying more than melt value for anything and they will use the results of the auction to make their point. There are no other determinants of price than supply and demand. Attacking these or those who study, collect, or love any coins is tilting at windmills far in excess of anything Don Quixoti could envision.
I do not consider that the modern era commenced until 1965. To my mind a defining characteristic of modern is that the coin was nearly completely ignored from the day it was minted. While 1963 cents may have recieved no more respect than most moderns, they were collected by significant numbers of people. >>
There is a world of difference between “knee jerk” reactions and professional opinions that are rendered after one has studied the market and had years of experience. If “supply and demand” were a proper defense, there would be no need for the Federal Trade Commission. There would be no need for the FTC to close down crooked coin dealers and boiler-room operations that sell over-graded and over priced coins to unwary consumers. If supply and demand is all that was required, it was perfectly all right for a crooked dealer to sell a 1921 Peace Dollar as an “investment” to an elderly couple my in-laws know for $3,000 when the coin was in AU condition and only worth $75.
ETHICS. It’s something that every dealer, who wants this hobby and this business to flourish and grow, MUST practice. Professional dealers, who didn’t know already, learned their lesson 25 years ago when crooked dealers almost ruined numismatics as a hobby. These dealers remained silent because it was improper to say bad things about their “colleagues.” They found out to their chagrin that their “colleagues” were nothing more than leaches, who were out to suck the hobby dry of all the goodwill that ethical dealers might have created, for high, ill-gotten profits.
I have repeatedly tried to explain these concepts to Cladking, but he has his own agenda. He continues with the same old tired line that it is impossible to pay too much for a modern coin because so many of them are great rarities. After all it’s supply and demand, and any other considerations are irrelevant.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
MY COMMENT ON THE REGISTRY BOARD CONCERNING THIS COIN, BUT APPROPRIATE HERE AS WELL I BELIEVE.
*******************
Perhaps we can approach this subject from a different angle -
My teenage kids are going to do SOME THINGS THAT NO MATTER WHAT I SAY THEY WILL DO. Of course, these will be stupid, foolish things that 20 years from now, I can say "I told you so". On the other hand, it is all part of learning process - sort of like when I ran to Las Vegas 2x in a week a few years ago to bet heavily (for me) on the Super Bowl of San Diego plus 20 against the 49ers. You know the old "any given Sunday" slogan and, geez, 20 POINTS IN A SUPER BOWL GAME. Well, guess what I lost, BUT, I HAVE NEVER BET A SINGLE DOLLAR AFTER THAT ON ANY GAME and at the last PCGS Invitational in Vegas last month placed ZERO BETS OF ANY KIND (OTHER THAN COIN GRADING BETS) OVER A 3 DAY PERIOD.
My point is simple - we have all WARNED this TO DEATH. Enough already - let the new buyer chase this coin to the Moon. Let him buy it for $35,000 and then sell it to the next guy a year from now for $31,000 and so on until 10 years from now the coin is back to selling at $2,000 where it may have started. Or, even if the coin sells for $41,000 this time, $43,000 the next and so on - WE HAVE STATED THE CASE AGAINST THIS COIN AD NAUSEAM. And, just like our teenage kids, there will be some "teenage" collectors out there who will have to learn from their mistakes. But, I will tell you this - in looking back I AM PERSONALLY HAPPY I BET THAT SUPER BOWL GAME - the small picture is the game (or the coin in this case), the big picture IMHO is what impact the bet or purchase has on someone in their lifetime, especially where they later recognize their mistake.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
You might end up singing soprano on that one, Stewart. If this had been sold at more reasonable number, say one or two thousand, I think that PCGS might have been tempted to buy it back to get it out of numismatic circulation. A previous poster graded this coin PR-66, I think that’s almost generous given the toning and the carbon spot that shows on the COINage photo.
At $39,100, I don’t think that PCGS wants to get involved because they believe that price was an aberration. This gets back to why inexperienced collectors need to be warned that there was nothing “normal” about this auction result.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Why would someone resubmit the coin? If PCGS agrees it is only a PR68DCAM then they will have to pay the difference between fair market value for a PR70DCAM and a PR68DCAM. All they have to do is say that the fair market value for the PR70DCAM is $10,000. Can't they argue that the person who paid $39,100 for the coin "was smoking crack" and paid way too much and that was his/her fault. I think any owner would be stupid to resubmit. Unfortunately it is just a $40,000 hot potato now.
<< <i>Does anybody know who the "lucky" owner was, of the 1963, before it was auctioned last time ?? >>
I don't know specifically, but I believe it was at one point handled and sold by Rick Tomaska. But, that was quite a few years ago from what I understand. The first sale may have been that buyer selling it.
Wondercoin, as a Teenager... I agree with you completely!!! =D
And to BillJones:
You're right, we can't have just a "Straight Capitalist Hobby" here. Straight Captialism Meaning, Supply and Demand is the only motivating factor in price. If you look back to the late 19th and early 20th century, the US Economy was pure Capitalism. Yeah, it makes the Economy grow the fastest of any economic system, but, you get the cut-throat sellers and the leeches and crooks. Take one Manhattan Sausage and Hot Dog maker. Once a year, they would "clean house" and throw anything in. They'd throw in the meat, then barrels of waste, nails, scraps of metal, etc. etc. and the water they would use, was the water that the workers would wash there hands in before going to lunch. Nasty crap, they'd even mark this meat "Special" and sell it for 2c more. Many manufacturers were crooked like this, and profit was the only motivating factor. The US finally realized this and moved to a Mix Economy with some government control and regulations. The time period you mention with all the crooked dealers, would be much like how the US Economy used to be. It created a lot of wealth, but the consumers started to get really POed. Of course now, I would hope that the FTC tries to crack down on crooked dealers, but I think ANA should take on that role more, of regulation within the hobby, and cracking down on low-life scam dealers. Ok, I'm way off topic now, aren't I?
The most likely final price is less than zero. How much less than zero depends on the arrangement which the consignor has regarding a buy back when the coin fails to meet the reserve. Assuming the buyback arrangement is 5% of the reserve, then when the high bid fails to meet the reserve, the coin will "sell" for -$1955.
Comments
Last year there were two people who thought it was worth $39,000 and one thought it was worth $100 more. Since he is the seller and out of the picture now, it will require a 3rd person to step up to the $39k level if the earlier underbidder still has an interest. I predict he does not.
So I think the coin itself will sell for $18 and the PCGS slab will sell for $18,750 for a total of
$18,768 or $21,583.20 with BP.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
For all those trying to justify or figure out the value of the coin, this matter has only one factor involved: EGO.
That's my guess so do I qualify????
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
David
P.S. Man, I hope I spelled my name right... I get disqualified if I edit this post it to change it.
<< <i>
<< <i>oh, and as for my guess, $1.28. someone's gotta be the low guesser. >>
Come on Zenny - be realistic, the slabbing fee (economy) is $10 (not counting the postage)! So figure $1.28 for the coin, $10 slabbing fee (2 month turn around) $3.72 for the postage and insurance = $15! - I'm gonna guess that coin in a slab with the properly designated grade (PR66RD DCAM) is a $15 coin!!
my guess was not based on the coin, just the previous low guess!
i reckon realistically it's probably worth 15 bucks....
probably
yeah, sure - ask my wife ahhh Morgan Fairchild, yeah that's the ticket
(Which is about $27,840 more than I would bid for the coin.)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
michael
<< <i>I think this coin has a chance of beating the last price. This will show that people who collect these have no real care in what the coin looks like, only what the number says. And the great thing is, cladking will come up with a variety of reasons why it should be worth it. >>
Well, you're finally almost half right.
find a way to bash someone or something. $1 or $100,000, there are always some things which
are sure things.
There is a variety of reasons that the coin will be worth its new price; supply and demand- though
this may as well be rocket science for some observers.
33, 773.50
my hotels
Yup - they just aren't making inserts like that anymore.
edited to add: cladking, why the kneejerk defense of this insert collecting phenomena? It's one thing to defend moderns, quite another to defend huge prices paid for a coin [of any era] not up to snuff. If, as you preach, there is a new wave of collectors to whom microscopic differences mean everything, how can you ignore the macroscopic imperfections of this coin?
I think the coin will sell for 17,000 plus the juice.
The insert will hammer at $52,500 to an internet or phone bidder unfamiliar with the coin. The collecting world will then be subjected to whining and screaming about Heritage's Signature Sale return policy for several months until the attorneys get everything worked out.
Hammer $52,500. No sale.
<< <i>There is a variety of reasons that the coin will be worth its new price; supply and demand
Yup - they just aren't making inserts like that anymore.
edited to add: cladking, why the kneejerk defense of this insert collecting phenomena? It's one thing to defend moderns, quite another to defend huge prices paid for a coin [of any era] not up to snuff. If, as you preach, there is a new wave of collectors to whom microscopic differences mean everything, how can you ignore the macroscopic imperfections of this coin? >>
There were ample opportunities in this thread to engage in a knee jerk defence of moderns.
Certainly it appeared some attacked this coin as a knee jerk response, but if you go back and
read my post you'll see I neither defended this coin nor the purchaser. I merely stated the
obvious; whether the coin sells for $1 or $100,000 there will be those who attack the coin, the
buyer and the wisdom of paying more than melt value for anything and they will use the results
of the auction to make their point. There are no other determinants of price than supply and
demand. Attacking these or those who study, collect, or love any coins is tilting at windmills
far in excess of anything Don Quixoti could envision.
I do not consider that the modern era commenced until 1965. To my mind a defining characteristic
of modern is that the coin was nearly completely ignored from the day it was minted. While 1963
cents may have recieved no more respect than most moderns, they were collected by significant
numbers of people.
of modern is that the coin was nearly completely ignored from the day it was minted. While 1963 cents may have recieved no more respect than most moderns, they were collected by significant numbers of people.
I think I understand what you are getting at - that the 'modern phenomena' as you define it involves junk clad that people consider pocket change and nothing else and therefore ignore. And as a result you consider this 1963 proof, and other such proofs, to be a separate issue.
I happen to agree that this coin doesn't fit the 'modern phenomena' at all. This coin is and always was about the insert.
Might as well go high, all the good guesses are taken.
Ah, the coin is priceless!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>There were ample opportunities in this thread to engage in a knee jerk defence of moderns.
Certainly it appeared some attacked this coin as a knee jerk response, but if you go back and
read my post you'll see I neither defended this coin nor the purchaser. I merely stated the
obvious; whether the coin sells for $1 or $100,000 there will be those who attack the coin, the
buyer and the wisdom of paying more than melt value for anything and they will use the results
of the auction to make their point. There are no other determinants of price than supply and
demand. Attacking these or those who study, collect, or love any coins is tilting at windmills
far in excess of anything Don Quixoti could envision.
I do not consider that the modern era commenced until 1965. To my mind a defining characteristic
of modern is that the coin was nearly completely ignored from the day it was minted. While 1963
cents may have recieved no more respect than most moderns, they were collected by significant
numbers of people. >>
There is a world of difference between “knee jerk” reactions and professional opinions that are rendered after one has studied the market and had years of experience. If “supply and demand” were a proper defense, there would be no need for the Federal Trade Commission. There would be no need for the FTC to close down crooked coin dealers and boiler-room operations that sell over-graded and over priced coins to unwary consumers. If supply and demand is all that was required, it was perfectly all right for a crooked dealer to sell a 1921 Peace Dollar as an “investment” to an elderly couple my in-laws know for $3,000 when the coin was in AU condition and only worth $75.
ETHICS. It’s something that every dealer, who wants this hobby and this business to flourish and grow, MUST practice. Professional dealers, who didn’t know already, learned their lesson 25 years ago when crooked dealers almost ruined numismatics as a hobby. These dealers remained silent because it was improper to say bad things about their “colleagues.” They found out to their chagrin that their “colleagues” were nothing more than leaches, who were out to suck the hobby dry of all the goodwill that ethical dealers might have created, for high, ill-gotten profits.
I have repeatedly tried to explain these concepts to Cladking, but he has his own agenda. He continues with the same old tired line that it is impossible to pay too much for a modern coin because so many of them are great rarities. After all it’s supply and demand, and any other considerations are irrelevant.
I bet FanOfModerns will predict a bazillion dollars because it's a PCGS PR70DCAM and will skyrocket in value.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Hoot
CG
Russ, NCNE
*******************
Perhaps we can approach this subject from a different angle -
My teenage kids are going to do SOME THINGS THAT NO MATTER WHAT I SAY THEY WILL DO. Of course, these will be stupid, foolish things that 20 years from now, I can say "I told you so". On the other hand, it is all part of learning process - sort of like when I ran to Las Vegas 2x in a week a few years ago to bet heavily (for me) on the Super Bowl of San Diego plus 20 against the 49ers. You know the old "any given Sunday" slogan and, geez, 20 POINTS IN A SUPER BOWL GAME. Well, guess what I lost, BUT, I HAVE NEVER BET A SINGLE DOLLAR AFTER THAT ON ANY GAME and at the last PCGS Invitational in Vegas last month placed ZERO BETS OF ANY KIND (OTHER THAN COIN GRADING BETS) OVER A 3 DAY PERIOD.
My point is simple - we have all WARNED this TO DEATH. Enough already - let the new buyer chase this coin to the Moon. Let him buy it for $35,000 and then sell it to the next guy a year from now for $31,000 and so on until 10 years from now the coin is back to selling at $2,000 where it may have started. Or, even if the coin sells for $41,000 this time, $43,000 the next and so on - WE HAVE STATED THE CASE AGAINST THIS COIN AD NAUSEAM. And, just like our teenage kids, there will be some "teenage" collectors out there who will have to learn from their mistakes. But, I will tell you this - in looking back I AM PERSONALLY HAPPY I BET THAT SUPER BOWL GAME - the small picture is the game (or the coin in this case), the big picture IMHO is what impact the bet or purchase has on someone in their lifetime, especially where they later recognize their mistake.
Wondercoin
Neat contest!
$43,214
-Thomas Jefferson
I will bet my left nut that this coin winds up back at PCGS for guaranteed resubmission.
Stewart
At $39,100, I don’t think that PCGS wants to get involved because they believe that price was an aberration. This gets back to why inexperienced collectors need to be warned that there was nothing “normal” about this auction result.
Why would someone resubmit the coin? If PCGS agrees it is only a PR68DCAM then they will have to pay the difference between fair market value for a PR70DCAM and a PR68DCAM. All they have to do is say that the fair market value for the PR70DCAM is $10,000. Can't they argue that the person who paid $39,100 for the coin "was smoking crack" and paid way too much and that was his/her fault. I think any owner would be stupid to resubmit. Unfortunately it is just a $40,000 hot potato now.
<< <i>Does anybody know who the "lucky" owner was, of the 1963, before it was auctioned last time ?? >>
I don't know specifically, but I believe it was at one point handled and sold by Rick Tomaska. But, that was quite a few years ago from what I understand. The first sale may have been that buyer selling it.
Russ, NCNE
And to BillJones:
You're right, we can't have just a "Straight Capitalist Hobby" here. Straight Captialism Meaning, Supply and Demand is the only motivating factor in price. If you look back to the late 19th and early 20th century, the US Economy was pure Capitalism. Yeah, it makes the Economy grow the fastest of any economic system, but, you get the cut-throat sellers and the leeches and crooks. Take one Manhattan Sausage and Hot Dog maker. Once a year, they would "clean house" and throw anything in. They'd throw in the meat, then barrels of waste, nails, scraps of metal, etc. etc. and the water they would use, was the water that the workers would wash there hands in before going to lunch. Nasty crap, they'd even mark this meat "Special" and sell it for 2c more. Many manufacturers were crooked like this, and profit was the only motivating factor. The US finally realized this and moved to a Mix Economy with some government control and regulations. The time period you mention with all the crooked dealers, would be much like how the US Economy used to be. It created a lot of wealth, but the consumers started to get really POed. Of course now, I would hope that the FTC tries to crack down on crooked dealers, but I think ANA should take on that role more, of regulation within the hobby, and cracking down on low-life scam dealers. Ok, I'm way off topic now, aren't I?
Anyways, that's my 1864 Lg Motto for you... =D
42/92