Buffalo grading opinions, 1921S

DRG · December 2, 2003 2:02AM

I really liked this one even though it does not have a full horn. What do you think?

XpipedreamR · December 2, 2003 2:12AM

I would say F-VF, maybe 20ish.

UncleJoe · December 2, 2003 2:19AM

XF Obv, F-15 Rev (frustrating isn't it?)

Joe.

mgoodm3 · December 2, 2003 2:22AM

Obv is really nice. Rev is not full horn but may just be a really bad strike/worn dies given that the obv is so nice. But I guess technically it wouldn't be VF by that, but I would leave that to the buffalo experts around here.

LAWMAN · December 2, 2003 3:45AM

Definitely nicer Obv. than Rev., but these S mint Buff's from the 20's are pretty softly struck. Get it slabbed.

paulheep · December 2, 2003 4:15AM

That buffalo would grade VF35.

Paul

BillJones · December 2, 2003 5:12AM

The obverse looks like an EF-45. The reverse looks like a VF-25. Allowances must be made for the strike. If you catch a break, it will get and EF-40. If you don't, VF-30.

jonesy · December 2, 2003 5:44AM

Talking about a tough crowd!!! Come on you guys!! The reverse die was badly worn. Look at the obverse!! That thing is AU53+ !!!!

BillJones · December 2, 2003 6:02AM

Well you might get a slab with AU-53, but when you can't see a complete horn and are asking $800 to $900 or more, you'll find out who the REAL tough crowd is. Collectors really get hung up on the horn, and it does not good to tell some of them it was never struck.

dorkkarl · December 2, 2003 6:21AM

brother, take it from me, do not get hosed by paying vf $ for it. no full-horn, no vf. can't say i agree fully w/ this philosophy, but the worst i ever got nailed was w/ slabed vf+ buffaloes that didn't have a full-horn.

don't do it - YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!

K S

Elcontador · December 2, 2003 7:18AM

I don't agree with Dorkkarl often, but he's right on the money here. Look at greysheet prices for
1920-9 'S' mint buffs and observe the price jump between F & VF. I had a raw 24S that would grade VF 20, but no buff collector would pay VF $ for it w/o the full horn.

Yes, while I'd agree the obverse of that coin is in the XF range (and maybe XF 45 at that), you're looking at VG 10 on the reverse. I wouldn't pay more than F 15 $ for the coin.

Remember, it doesn't matter what it says on the slab; if it doesn't have a full horn, don't pay VF money for it.

OnlyBuffalos · December 2, 2003 7:19AM

The early 1920 S and D mints are very difficult to find with nicely struck reverses and full horns are seldom found on VF coins. You need to look at other parts of the coin as well. Are the letters "United Staes of America" clear of the rims? Is the hip bone distinct? Is the outline of the tail visible?

For a 1938-D buffalo your coin's reverse would grade "fine". In my opinion this 1920-S is a VF35 coin with a very nicely struck obverse which is not too uncommon on a 1920_S date.

If you view Heritage's auction archive for PCGS graded 1920-S coins you will find a few circulated ones. Yours looks nicer than a VF20 but not as nice as an XF40. If this coin has not been messed with, it is a nice example of a very difficult date to find half-way decent.

BigD5 · December 2, 2003 8:46AM

A knowledgeable buffalo collector would scoop this coin up. The obverse is wonderful, and while the reverse strike is lacking, that's what you get with these dates. I think the coin would slab vf/35, but could see it going xf/40 just because of the strong obverse.

How come every coin series is weighted heavier, as far as grading goes, on the obverse in comparison to the reverse, but you get to a buffalo nickel, and everyone bipasses the obverse and checks the horn?

jonesy · December 2, 2003 9:02AM

<< <i>How come every coin series is weighted heavier, as far as grading goes, on the obverse in comparison to the reverse, but you get to a buffalo nickel, and everyone bipasses the obverse and checks the horn? >>

Yeah! I guess it wouldn't go over a vf35.

mojorizn · December 2, 2003 9:36AM

David Lange states in his "Complete Guide to Buffalo Nickels" that, "many coins of this date offered as VF-AU may be lacking a complete horn. Grading thus becomes a judgement call based on the amount of overall wear and remaining luster. As always, the high values listed for VF and better coins are for nickels having a fully visible horn."

I agree that most knowledgeable Buffalo collectors would probably scoop this coin up as the '21-S is notorious for worn dies and weak strike. However, you may have a tough time getting full VF money for it.

Too bad the obverse wasn't the worn die!

Mojo

skate4357 · December 2, 2003 9:38AM

The 1921-S is one of everyone's favorite dates because it is scarce even in low circulated grades. This date often comes with a decent strike. However planchet flaws are common, as are streaky discoloration patterns.
My guess is 1- It has it's original color for the grade. 2- as most of the 21's are weakly struck I guess a solid XF45.
A full horn for this XF grade should not be expected. Hope this helps.
Mike

stujoe · December 2, 2003 10:08AM

I would grade it EF45, weakly struck reverse. The horn isn't there but other features on the reverse are.

coinkat · December 2, 2003 10:13AM

very tough call. the obverse is very nice and the reverse is just not there which makes grading this coin all the more subjective... good luck with your decision. The obverse should carry the coin to a minium of VF25 perhaps higher... even with the weak horn. What I find so unusual about this coin is that the obverse looks well struck and it is paired with a horrible reverse die that is obviously worn... a tale of two coins...the best of strikes and the worst

coinkat · December 2, 2003 10:14AM

very tough call. the obverse is very nice and the reverse is just not there which makes grading this coin all the more subjective... good luck with your decision. The obverse should carry the coin to a minium of VF25 perhaps higher... even with the weak horn. What I find so unusual about this coin is that the obverse looks well struck and it is paired with a horrible reverse die that is obviously worn... a tale of two coins...the best of strikes and the worst

jdimmick · December 2, 2003 11:35AM

That coin is easily a solid Xf,or (maybe even a bit better) problem is though;

The reverse is so weak struck that no one will pay anywhere near that kind of money for it. The money jumps on the buffs from grades f to vf to xf etc, especially for those tougher dates, are for coins that have the detail for what you would typically expect to see with a specific grade level.

edited to correct the term weak strike(should say struck with worn die, as it was noted on later thread), there is a difference, but when ever I see one like this I use that term loosely!

DRG · December 3, 2003 1:19AM

Thank you for all of the replies. I did buy the coin for $285 which is a bit less then VF money.

I probably will send it to PCGS and see what they have to say. The Obv was just too good to let go at this price and my feeling is that the reverse is just from worn dies/poor strike not wear. As far as actual wear, I think the coin is a XF45-AU53 but because of the poor strike it will be called VF35 or XF40 at best. Either way I think it was worth the price.

Although those that said getting VF money will be difficult may be right, I have looked at a lot of 21S Buff's that did not look nearly as good overall but had the horn and were going for big $'s.

The bottom line is that I like the coin!

Thanks again for the input. I will update you when I get it back from PCGS.

jom · December 3, 2003 1:28AM

I'm not completely knowledgable in circulated Buffs but it would seem to me this Buff is lacking the horn due to STRIKE not wear. So then is it graded VF because of the lack of horn or not? I suppose you must take into the consideration the whole community of Buff circ collectors...because I don't really know.

jom

dorkkarl · December 3, 2003 2:04AM

<< <i>it would seem to me this Buff is lacking the horn due to STRIKE not wear. So then is it graded VF because of the lack of horn or not >>

completely disagree, & this is a big beef i have w/ pcgs, & is the reason i lost over $400 on a pcgs-graded buffalo nickel.

"strike" SHOULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR in the grade! ie. a unc coin worn down to vf details, should be the same grade as a unc coin that was so poorly struck that it only orignally had as much detail as a vf coin. so, if "vf" buffalo means "full-horn", then a coin worn down past the point of having only a partial horn can't qualify as "Vf". however, it should also be that coin struck terrible that maybe only technically has 10 points of wear (au-50), but has no full-horn, should still be only "vf".

the point is that "VF" indicates a certain amt. of detail, & if a coin doesn't display that level of detail, whether due to normal circulation or poor strike, it should be graded proportional to the amt. of detail. poor-strike SHOULD be a detriment to the overall grade.

bottom line for me: i learned this lesson the hard way - in the wallet.

just my worthless opinion.

K S

dorkkarl · December 3, 2003 2:05AM

<< <i>it would seem to me this Buff is lacking the horn due to STRIKE not wear. So then is it graded VF because of the lack of horn or not >>

completely disagree, & this is a big beef i have w/ pcgs, & is the reason i lost over $400 on a pcgs-graded buffalo nickel.

"strike" SHOULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR in the grade! ie. a unc coin worn down to vf details, should be the same grade as a unc coin that was so poorly struck that it only orignally had as much detail as a vf coin. so, if "vf" buffalo means "full-horn", then a coin worn down past the point of having only a partial horn can't qualify as "Vf". however, it should also be that coin struck terrible that maybe only technically has 10 points of wear (au-50), but has no full-horn, should still be only "vf".

the point is that "VF" indicates a certain amt. of detail, & if a coin doesn't display that level of detail, whether due to normal circulation or poor strike, it should be graded proportional to the amt. of detail. poor-strike SHOULD be a detriment to the overall grade.

bottom line for me: i learned this lesson the hard way - in the wallet.

just my worthless opinion.

K S

jom · December 3, 2003 2:26AM

Karl: I never made any comment whether grading on strike and wear was right or wrong. I just suggested it is an issue. My quote "lack of horn or not?" ended with a question mark, no?

I do NOT know if this coin is worth more than a worn VF. To me the obverse is VERY nice...at least compared to VF's I've seen. But, like I said, I do NOT collect circulated (rather coins below AU) coins so this isn't my expertise...

jom

griffin6 · December 3, 2003 6:08AM

There have always been two schools of thought about poorly struck buffs. One school says if there's not a full horn, the coin can't be VF and the large spread (between F&VF) for the 21-S, 24-S and 26-S reflect that position. The other position is the "whole coin concept" and the major grading services all seem to honor this in one way or another. I don't think you'll find a horn tip on any (or at least many) coins from PCGS, NGC or ANACS graded VF 20 or 25. That seems to be the new standard for 30 and above, and on 24-S coins, maybe not even there.

This is a pretty well-known die pair for the 24-S and I've seen several in holders. Depending on the degree of luster, I think NGC would grade this coin either XF45 or AU50. PCGS tends to net grade more and could be in the 35-40 range. I would think in the wholesale marketplace, it would trade in the slab for 10-20% back of BID, but certainly not for VF money or less... that's just not realistic. I think it was a great buy at under $300!

Elcontador · December 3, 2003 7:45AM

If the 24S is like to 21S, I've seen a few of the former slabbed as MS 40 by PCGS when the coins barely had the full horn. Think those coins were bringing VF, not XF $.

mojorizn · December 3, 2003 8:58AM

I think you did well for the money. And yes, Dorkkarl, strike should be taken into account. When it comes right down to the bottom line, a COLLECTOR buys coins for his collection based on eye appeal, and whether a coin is poorly struck or heavily worn still equals the same thing. The fact that a particular date or series is notorious for a poor strike, or poor planchet, or whatever, should have no bearing on the coin's technical grade IMO.

Mojo

Libertad · December 3, 2003 12:34PM

VF money for the coin isn't a bad buy, IMHO. It won't ever bring XF $ from a collector.
The notion that a full horn defines VF works generally, but not for the worn dies SF used
in the early 20's as Lange's notes point out.

It isn't the strike that's the issue, the coin is well-struck as the obverse shows but the full
strike on a worn reverse die can't be appreciated in comparison with other years. One of my
co-workers worked on an MS buff collection, and gave it up when the early 20's specimens were
so mushy-looking on the reverse. The worn dies are part of the coin-maker's history now, and
I'm certain that the mint workers blamed the centralized government for the lack of decent
reverse dies available to work with at the time.

Buffalo grading opinions, 1921S

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