cladking, I gotta hand it you... you are very persistant and alway's make a good point for moderns. I alway's read your ENTIRE post and try to understand your views. mike
The modern coin promoters have labeled me as one of the leading “modern bashers” on this board. Yet if people would read what I have written, they would realize that I collect modern Proofs and commemorative coins and enjoy them very much. I collect them because I want them and not to make money from them. There is nothing wrong with modern coins. They provide a wonderful entrée into this great hobby.
My main issue is with the overpriced modern coin, and my concerns about what will happen to these new collectors if they lose their shirts on these pieces. For that opinion and advice I have been continually vilified.
Frankly I’m tied of it, so I’m going to write something that is going REALLY get you modern coin promoters and huskers angry.
You take your positions on modern coins for personal gain. You want to drive the prices up on these pieces so that you make great profits from them in very short periods of time. You make perfectly silly comments like, “No modern coin can ever be overpriced,” because you are hoping to take something for which you have paid $50, including the slab fee, and sell it for $5,000 or more.
You don’t care about the growth of this hobby. You only care about making huge mark-ups. You don’t care if you drive off this batch nascent collectors in the long run if you can turnover some big bucks now. And if you drive off this crop of pigeons maybe you will get lucky and restart the cycle with a new flock.
In reality you are no difference from “rare coin investment companies” that cropped in the 1970s and ‘80s. Those crooks bought bright, shiny AU coins or worse whizzed coins, for less than $100 a piece and sold them as “MS-65, investment grade” for thousands. People lost their shirts; the Federal Trade commission shut them down; and numismatics got a black eye.
Now the FTC has allowed a new loophole. If a coin is packaged in some sort of a display, you can get away with charging more for it because the FTC is not going to get involved in putting a price on the total “presentation.” That’s one of the ways that the TV hucksters survive. Perhaps slabs will give you a similar cover.
At any rate this numismatic “south sea bubble” pops some collectors are going to get hurt. Some of them will cry and complain, but my sympathy will be limited for them. If they have read what I have written, my attitude will be, “You were warned.”
Now you hucksters can descend upon me and tear me to ribbons. I have heard it all before, but let’s see you can come up with any new and innovative points. I doubt it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>cladking, I gotta hand it you... you are very persistant and alway's make a good point for moderns. I alway's read your ENTIRE post and try to understand your views. mike >>
Thank you Darktone. It's just as tiring for me to post in defence of moderns as it is for us to read the posts. It might surprise some to know that it's actually possible to appreciate these coins without collecting them or studying them.
Bill Jones, that was one of the mosts irresponsible statements I've heard in a long time. Most modern collectors are not dealers. If fairness you should have mentioned that you are a dealer in classical coins and are promoting your agenda by bashing moderns. This statement is as true as what you said in your post, or as false. You make the determination.
Full-time dealer and collector of mostly 19th century U.S. coins and tokens. I sell hand-picked certified coins and raw tokens. Email: billsnotes@tampabay.rr.com
<< <i>Full-time dealer and collector of mostly 19th century U.S. coins and tokens. I sell hand-picked certified coins and raw tokens. Email: billsnotes@tampabay.rr.com >>
He is a dealer Goose. That's not bad but he should have mentioned that he's promoting his own wares by bashing moderns. I've even purchased a nice coin from him. Most of my coins are not what I call moderns, they are preclad era and earlier. Yet somehow when I defend moderns, I am doing something wrong.
mark I know he's a dealer but I am merely saying that he doesn't come on here touting his wares and trying to sell his stuff. I have never even seen him list a coin on the B/S/T board.
Call me nuts or smart but I am of the same mindset of him. I hate to see people pay ludicrous prices for coins based solely on plastic but if that is what they want to do, who am I to say anything or change that? It's their money and their enjoyment.
When I buy a coin I only buy a coin that is worth as much OUTSIDE of the plastic as it is encased INSIDE of it.
This is what I get out of this. I think that there is a over-reliance on "population." The high prices realized on modern and classic coins are commonly population dependent, whether or not there are another 50 out there of the same grade that are not slabbed. If these coins were slabbed the prices would come down and someone will lose money. I feel this is more of a problem with moderns because most, but ot all, of the high-grade older coins are already in slabs.
It seems like there's always a coin mentioned that someone pays an exhorbitant price for that is pop 1 that soon becomes a pop 200 as time goes on. Not saying there aren't some true rarities in the modern world, but some of the population rarities are just that, rarities in population not in real life.
<< <i>mark I know he's a dealer but I am merely saying that he doesn't come on here touting his wares and trying to sell his stuff. I have never even seen him list a coin on the B/S/T board.
Call me nuts or smart but I am of the same mindset of him. I hate to see people pay ludicrous prices for coins based solely on plastic but if that is what they want to do, who am I to say anything or change that? It's their money and their enjoyment.
When I buy a coin I only buy a coin that is worth as much OUTSIDE of the plastic as it is encased INSIDE of it. >>
The difference is that your concerns, while possibly misplaced, are not mean spirited and unreasoning. You've never called anyone a huckster or a thief as billjones repeatedly has (or implied). Nor do you simply choose to ignore everything which doesn't fit your preconcieved ideas.
Goose, my point in the initial thread was that it is okay to like 1/2 cents as well as Sacs. Unless you are buying top pop coins, most moderns are very affordable. That's what I was trying to say. I did not start this thread saying that anyone should go out and buy top pop moderns. I did say that many people who start collecting moderns eventually get into other areas as well. That's what this thread was supposed to be about. A few modern bashers took it elsewhere.
Yes, I do offer coins here from time to time, and I have sold selected pieces to a small number of boards members. Like it says on my trailer I sell hand-picked coins, and I do a fair amount of want list work of people.
And, no, I have not warned people about overpriced modern coins because I wanted them to switch to classics and buy from me. I write this in the same spirit as an honest, competent financial advisor would tell clients to avoid certain overpriced investments. ANYTHING can be overpriced, EVEN the so-called Classic coins. Some collectors of Classic coins have learned that to their sorrow when they put their collections up for auction. I’ve been buying coins for over 40 years. I’ve seen a lot of ups and downs in all areas of the market.
At any rate I know that have made a number of collectors who have paid speculative prices for modern coins angry at me for questioning their assumptions. You are probably one them, mdwoods. Given that I seriously doubt that any of those folks would ever contact me to purchase coins. But they might re-think their positions, which could be bad news for those who are hyping this market.
As for your “irresponsible statements” remark, I guess that anything that does not agree with your assumption must be “irresponsible.” Although you claim that you are not dealer, you certainly act a person who has a major financial stake in this segment of the market. If not, why are you so emotional about it?
I'm small time dealer with minimal influence. I find it truly amazing that I can elicit such passionate responses from those of you who make the high priced modern coin market.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I'm going to be even more blunt than Bill. I believe that coins should be collected for their aesthetic qualities, whether that be artistic or historic. I believe it is a mistake to collect coins for any investment potential involved.
I've spent close to two years compiling a complete date set of Ikes. I've looked at hundreds of uncirculated coins, and continue to do so: upgrading a piece here and there with one that has perhaps a slightly better luster, or one less bag mark. I've personally opened dozens of mint and proof sets to get at the coins I wanted, to be certain that they were properly handled. (I got very cranky when dealers would send me proofs with fingerprints on them and then proceed to tell me that that's how they came from the mint.)
Why do I do this? Because I happen to like the Ikes, and I enjoy the hunt. I have a great appreciation for Ike as a president, and I'm fascinated with that particular period in US history. I house my collection in a Dansco album in which I've included the two Ike commems in unc and proof (one of the few US commems with a janiform portrait), the WWII commem (with Ike's quote on the back) in proof, and a West Point proof dollar to boot, since he was an alumnus of that presitgious institution.
Should I expect any financial gain from my efforts? No. I do it merely for the joy of collecting.
I'll leave my financial gain to real investments like my mutual funds, which sadly enough have only begun to regain their original buy value over the last year. Sigh.........
Don't ask me to invest in coins. I'm not one of P.T. Barnum's suckers.
I'm small time dealer with minimal influence. I find it truly amazing that I can elicit such passionate responses from those of you who make the high priced modern coin market. >>
I don't want to bust your bubble here guy, but it would appear most of the reputable modern people wrote you off as a crank a long time ago. It's just me left now, and I'm trying to ignore you.
Although you claim that you are not dealer, you certainly act a person who has a major financial stake in this segment of the market. If not, why are you so emotional about it?
Because it alienates new collectors who come here seeking knowledge and kinship. You didn't read my initial post either by the sounds of your posts. And I happen to like all coins, including moderns. I don't like it when someone twists what I was trying to say. You ignored what I was trying to say and hopped up on your soapbox like you always do and changed the spirit of the thread. That's what makes me emotional.
Besides that Bill, the people who make the modern market haven't said a word in this thread. I'm talking about the big boys who slabs hundred and thousands of coins at a shot. My last submission of mderns was 12 coins. I don't think I'm much of a market maker.
You are about as pure a collector as I have even met on these boards. I don't share your enthusiasm for Ike Dollars, but I have approached my collection of early half dimes with similar motives. I’ve upgraded coins in that collection at prices that were well over the bid/ask levels and have sold off the duplicate and replaced coins at losses.
Why did I do this? I have enjoyed the series. Until recently I would have lost money on my collection if I had sold it, but I did not care. I just enjoyed the coins!
To me a profit from my collection is a pleasant by-product, which is great if it happens. It’s not my primary objective.
As for my business, well, there I am just another greedy capitalist with desire to serve my customers with truthfulness and honesty.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Bill, please read my initial post and tell me where I said something wrong or misleading.
Besides that Bill, the people who make the modern market haven't said a word in this thread. I'm talking about the big boys who slabs hundred and thousands of coins at a shot. My last submission of mderns was 12 coins. I don't think I'm much of a market maker.
Where did I say, "Don't collect moderns," mdwoods? I stated up front that I collect them with pleasure.
My issue is with stuff that 95% of the legitimate dealer community either publicly or privately thinks is way overpriced. What wrong with expressing that view? What is the sin? Do you think that new collectors should hear only ONE point of view?
Please don’t distort what I write. That’s how the promoters always respond to my posts
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
One has to make the distinction between collecting for fun and collecting for profit. I agree that moderns bring in many new collectors, however, new collectors are frequently drawn into the "investment hype" propogated by unscrupulous dealers trying to drive the market, each one vying for their turn at the steering wheel.
I believe everyone here has a good point, and we are looking at both sides of the coin, if you will.
I agree John. This thread was never meant to be about top pop high priced moderns. And I certainly wouldn't tell someone to buy MS68 state quarters as an investment. Most are cheap enough to buy to just have a real nice specimen. When I came back into collecting in the 90s, I collected large cents, so I am not a new collector who started with moderns. Nor is my collection focused on moderns, although it once was.
Oh yes Bill, you did say this little statement. "Frankly I’m tired of it, so I’m going to write something that is going REALLY get you modern coin promoters and huskers angry. "
There is a difference between someone promoting moderns and a modern huckster trying to rip people off. You decided to lump them together. You shouldn't be surprised that such statements elicit strong repsonses.
<< <i> My main issue is with the overpriced modern coin, ... >>
How about writing a price guide so we know how much to pay.
<< <i>Frankly I’m tied of it, so I’m going to write something that is going REALLY get you modern coin promoters and huskers angry. >>
You're "tied" of the "huskers" are you. And going to intentionally make them angry Who could possibly take this for trolling?
<< <i>You take your positions on modern coins for personal gain. You want to drive the prices up on these pieces so that you make great profits from them in very short periods of time. You make perfectly silly comments like, “No modern coin can ever be overpriced,” >>
You've made this same ridiculous statement several times, yet have never shown that anyone said it. No one wants to drive up prices nor is anyone likely foolish enough to believe it's possible. Comments have been made to the effect that these coins are often underpriced because they are underappreciated.
<< <i>because you are hoping to take something for which you have paid $50, including the slab fee, and sell it for $5,000 or more. >>
Some of my coins are worth in excess of this and were purchased for far less.
<< <i>You don’t care about the growth of this hobby. You only care about making huge mark-ups. You don’t care if you drive off this batch nascent collectors in the long run if you can turnover some big bucks now. And if you drive off this crop of pigeons maybe you will get lucky and restart the cycle with a new flock. >>
This certainly couldn't be intended to inflame.
<< <i> Now the FTC has allowed a new loophole. If a coin is packaged in some sort of a display, you can get away with charging more for it because the FTC is not going to get involved in putting a price on the total “presentation.” That’s one of the ways that the TV hucksters survive. Perhaps slabs will give you a similar cover. >>
Do you believe there's a lot of collusion? Care to elaborate?
<< <i>At any rate this numismatic “south sea bubble” pops some collectors are going to get hurt. Some of them will cry and complain, but my sympathy will be limited for them. If they have read what I have written, my attitude will be, “You were warned.” >>
You overrate the importance of your words.
<< <i> Now you hucksters can descend upon me and tear me to ribbons. I have heard it all before, but let’s see you can come up with any new and innovative points. I doubt it. >>
I'm curious about something. Toned Morgans frequently bring 10x, 20x, 30x, and I've even seen 60x Greysheet. I see little difference between that and some of the stupid prices realized for ultra-grade moderns.
Why isn't there a contingent of people constantly bashing the toned Morgan market?
<< <i>There is a difference between someone promoting moderns and a modern huckster trying to rip people off. You decided to lump them together. You shouldn't be surprised that such statements elicit strong repsonses. >>
Frankly md, I don' see much of a distiction. If looks, acts and sells like a boiler room operation it is one.
One dealer friend of mine laid it out to me this way. "If you sell a coin to somebody for $8,000 but would not buy back the SAME coin for at least $7,000, you are not honest. Most of the guys I see who are selling this stuff are not offering buy prices that are commenserate with thier selling prices."
That pretty well sums it up for me.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I collect early commemoratives and the series runs through 1954. I think the cut off date should be 1960 so no one will ever accuse me of being a geeky modern collector-------------------BigE
The toned Morgan market is bit like the market for rare early 19th century die varieties. It’s very specialized and a comparatively some number really series collectors make that market.
I don’t care the way the toned Morgan Market is if one has to pay huge premiums for very common date coins. I even turned down a want list from a well-known collector who posts here quite often because I don’t agree with the pricing.
If others want to do it, fine, but I would give this advice. Try to sell a coin now and then to someone who seems to specialize in toned Morgans. If they are willing to pay you a price that is fair relative to what you paid you are OK. If not then maybe it’s time to re-think.
Anytime you go into an area of the market that is out of the mainstream, you need to do a reality check now and then. That’s just prudent.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Cladking: it's interesting to see how differently people see the same things. I don't find Bill's comments the least bit inflammatory, unless you want to call the blunt truth inflammatory, which I suppose it frequently is.
Everyone knows that the high-priced-slabbed market is a waning phenomenon by now. It wouldn't have happened if there weren't collectors buying into the hype from the very start, after all, it takes the proverbial two to tango.
And yes, Russ, there is a contingent of toned Morgan bashers. As a darksider who owns hundreds of silver world coins, I can tell you from personal experience that silver (depending on the alloy), only RARELY gets monster toning. And yet, you see it all the time on the liteside. Another market fabricated by coin doctor dealers.
Bill count me in the group that hopes you continue to voice your opinion. Many years ago when I was in college there was a studied completed that showed that 95% of graudationg seniors hadn't changed their opinion about social issues, politics, etc. from the time they entered college. Colleges are considered to be the bastion of free-thinking and self-examination of personally held believes. I'd rather doubt that somone will change their opinion about dearly held coin collecting believes from a coin forum. Most of the coins I collect I guess would be considered modern (however we can't even define that term here is such a way to get a consensus agreement).
The coin market is rife with dealers and collectors trying to make high grades in recently minted coins to turn a huge profit. There simply is no way to dispute that. There is a financial risk in purchasing high priced recently minted coins that no one not even the most astute collector or dealer can deny or quantify. No one has that crystal ball. There will be winners and losers. I agree with Bill I don't won't to be one of the losers so I sit on the sidelines. There will be those that unknowingly that get into that market unaware of the potential risk and those who enter it knowing the risks.
Most of us have seen what happens to recently minted coin registry sets that are high grades when they go to market. A lot of them do not sell for near what the collector paid for them or languish months later unsold in dealers inventories.
Personally I'd rather invest $1200 into a proof 65 1936 Washington then a proof 70 DCAM SAE, because there is a track record on the value. Whatever your bent is when it comes to collecting unless you have money to throw away, Bill's cautionary remarks are worthwhile hearing whether you belive them or not. It's obvious his passion is there for the right reasons.
Why don't any of you people (read bashers) read the initial post? Where did I say go out and buy top pop moderns? Why did you decide to turn this thread to your own agenda? I said it was okay to like 1/2 cents and Sac dollars. NO WHERE DID I SAY TO BUY MODERNS FOR AN INVESTMENT. For crying out loud, telling somebody it's okay to spend 30 or 40 dollars for a MS68 slabbed quarter is not ripping people off. I don't like your implications BILL JONES. I am not a huckster because I like moderns or tell others it is okay to like moderns. CladKing has provided volumes of useful information about clad coinage. What is your problem. You stated in no uncertain terms that you wanted to tick people off. WHY? Why attack people for things they did not say? I didn't call you an ass and you are certainly acting like one.
<< <i>Like it or not, modern coins bring a lot of people into the hobby. When you make broad negative statements about moderns, your remarks can be >>
OK md, I've read your initial post. Where are my "broad negative comments about moderns?" I've laid out my concerns about segment of that market which covers only extremely high priced modern coins, which are almost always in high MS PCGS. That’s hardly “broad.”
Is any criticism of the modern coin market permissible? Or is one peep of decent categorized strictly as “bashing?”
Do our mottos have to be, "Modern coins they are all good," and "It is totally impossible to overprice a modern coin?"
If you substituted classic coins in those sentances I would NEVER agree with them.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
OK md, I've read your initial post. Where are my "broad negative comments about moderns?" I've laid out my concerns about segment of that market which covers only extremely high priced modern coins, which are almost always in high MS PCGS. That’s hardly “broad.”
Why lay out your concerns in a thread that had no relevance to your concerns? Why call me a huckster for promoting modern coins? I NEVER ONCE SAID TO BUY TOP POP COINS. You aren't going to lose your ass buying a MS68 state quarter, Sac or Lincoln. You sit down and go through mint sets and see how much money you make. You'll be lucky to break even.
<< <i>Cladking: it's interesting to see how differently people see the same things. I don't find Bill's comments the least bit inflammatory, unless you want to call the blunt truth inflammatory, which I suppose it frequently is. >>
The man called me and all who deal or speculate in moderns a thief and you call it the "blunt truth".
"In reality you are no difference from “rare coin investment companies” that cropped in the 1970s and ‘80s. Those crooks..."
He has certainly called me worse and has had a fair number of insults for the collectors, graders, and anyone else connected to moderns.
You dig a deeper hole for yourself everyday. In one lucid moment you did admit that you were a “promoter.” Otherwise it’s hype, hype and more hype built on a mountain of hype.
It’s a shame because you have probably developed an expertise in modern coins that could serve you well. Yet, your inability to step back and temper your enthusiasm with some objectivity negates a lot of your message.
Yes, despite high mintages and high survival rates relative to many classic coins, there are some modern issues that might be worth hundreds of dollars in the high grade to enough collectors to make a REAL market. Even at those prices you are probably sitting on a gold mine.
BUT thousands of dollars? TENS of thousands of dollars? GET REAL. When one can look at what $10,000 can buy in “classic coins” (or perhaps could buy before this market got SO over heated), one needs to put a little thought into their purchases.
That’s all I ask, but for you and your cohorts, that’s an unreasonable comment.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
This thread is kind of on-topic in that your below statement came true. I will respond to the first post as it was written. Yes moderns are often the starting or ending point for collectors. Myself, I collect coins for fun, not profit. In that context, if you like a series go ahead and collect it, modern or not. Kumbaya (sp?) is what we need more of.
"When you make broad negative statements about moderns, your remarks can be interpreted as personal."
I'm gonna have to fix this post later when I have time.
<< <i>
If these rolls coins are so rare, why are they so cheap on the Gray Sheet? Are there no trades in these rolls? Is that part of a major pricing guide total fiction? What about all the coins in mint sets, and the coins in collectors' sets that these people put away every year for many years? This clad coin in run of the mill Mint State rarity thing that you keep harping on is mostly in your mind. >>
Two points here: First and foremost, they are not all cheap. There are several that list over $100 now. The '83-P quarter lists over $700 last I looked.
Secondly: There is very little demand for most moderns. The fact that the coins generally have low prices reflects this fact, not that there is a large supply.
<< <i> I'll grant you that a lot of these business strike modern coins are very scarce in high grade because many of them were poorly made from the get-go. I'd even give them a higher value than a lot of other "classic" collectors would. But I don't think that they are worth the many thousands of dollars that you try to assign to them. >>
Two points here: First is the fact that some of these are not only hard to find in high grade but they are also elusive in mid grades. Some of the late '70's cents and the early clads can be tough to find even in MS-64. The 1969 quarter is tough even choice.
Secondly: I have no particular desire to see the markets for these go to any price. I've never said there is no price too high. Some of these prices do seem that they may have gotten ahead of themselves but this is NOT my call. Supply and demand set these prices and since I know some- thing of supply I've often made inferences about demand.
Personally, I'd much rather see the lower grade coins go up simply because the top specimens are so rare that few are available.
<< <i> Why? Because most collectors don't want huge amounts of money tied up on common dates. Quality is great, but even THAT reaches a price limit after a while. >>
Here is one of my posts to your statements in the modern bashers club thread which you chose to ignore like most of my other posts.
I've certainly never denied being a promoter.
All regular issue moderns are common in some grade. Does this mean they can't or shouldn't be collected? Are we not to collect uncs because there are billions of the coins in circulation? How about the varieties and the special coins. Many of these are scarce or rare and simply aren't available to everyone at any price. Doesn't it seem logical that when assembling modern collections that many people would want to choose coins which are attractive? Gem? ...and yes some might even want pop tops.
I fully agree that quality is great and even it reaches a limit. This limit is not my doing. People are paying these prices because that is what some want and can afford.
Yes, I do believe some of these prices have a long way to go on the upside and I believe that some have gotten ahead of themselves. But it doesn't matter what I think and, yes, I do avoid talking about coins I believe are priced too high whether it's a classic or a modern. There are people who love such coins or make a living with them. It's hardly my place to point out the coins I believe will go down. I'll simply avoid acquiring such items.
Cladking, I've obviously stepped into the crossfire here.
I'm not trying to alienate anyone, and as my experience of the moderns market is limited, I'm going to gracefully bow out of this conversation, and just read the responses so that I can learn more about it.
I certainly don't think of you as a thief. I don't even know you. My agreement with Bill was on purely on philosophical grounds. I apologize for the fact that it may have seemed personal.
I agree. And I thnk that this is all that Bill Jones and others have really said that can be deemed "critical" of moderns.
In that regard, Bill do you sell Washington quarters? For example, pre-1965 dates? If so I would assume that many if not most of the collectors who are buying those intend to assemble a complete set, including the clads. I can't imagine a dealer refusing to sell a 1932 quarter because doing so could lead the customer to acquire the clad pieces.
I've sold very few Washington quarters because I am a very fussy and cheap modern coin buyer. I cherry pick modern coins MS-64 holders that I have find to be really attractive. What's attractive? Nice luster, a minimum of marks, good eye appeal and surfaces that are either totally original or so lightly dipped that the piece has not been impaired.
I've handled a few 1932-D and S quarters in Mint State on a want list basis. Many of those pieces that I have seen i MS-63 and 64 certified of late had marks were too heavy to leave the coin in an attractive condition.
As for selling clad coins, I'd say fine. The problem is most of them are in too low of a grade to be slabbed. And the "super expensive" (thousands of dollars) coins would not be something that I would want to sell. I have no faith in them and would not want to own, sell or put my stamp of approval on them.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I know everyone is passionate about their beliefs, and I think that's a good thing. Since Washington clads are the current subject of debate, I recently sold three of my duplicates on Teletrade in PCGS plastic, and thought perhaps the examples would provide some illumination. These were all in auction #1799. The MS-67 coin was a superb strike and mark free. It is full luster, and one of two I've liked well enough to submit. Approximately every 500 sets, I submit one coin like it. I search because I enjoy it. Frankly I couldn't afford to search otherwise. I've included several other coins in my example I thought might prove useful as well.
1312 Quarter 1968D PCGS 65 Full mint brilliance. White, and nicely struck. Pleasing surfaces. $6.00
Comments
My main issue is with the overpriced modern coin, and my concerns about what will happen to these new collectors if they lose their shirts on these pieces. For that opinion and advice I have been continually vilified.
Frankly I’m tied of it, so I’m going to write something that is going REALLY get you modern coin promoters and huskers angry.
You take your positions on modern coins for personal gain. You want to drive the prices up on these pieces so that you make great profits from them in very short periods of time. You make perfectly silly comments like, “No modern coin can ever be overpriced,” because you are hoping to take something for which you have paid $50, including the slab fee, and sell it for $5,000 or more.
You don’t care about the growth of this hobby. You only care about making huge mark-ups. You don’t care if you drive off this batch nascent collectors in the long run if you can turnover some big bucks now. And if you drive off this crop of pigeons maybe you will get lucky and restart the cycle with a new flock.
In reality you are no difference from “rare coin investment companies” that cropped in the 1970s and ‘80s. Those crooks bought bright, shiny AU coins or worse whizzed coins, for less than $100 a piece and sold them as “MS-65, investment grade” for thousands. People lost their shirts; the Federal Trade commission shut them down; and numismatics got a black eye.
Now the FTC has allowed a new loophole. If a coin is packaged in some sort of a display, you can get away with charging more for it because the FTC is not going to get involved in putting a price on the total “presentation.” That’s one of the ways that the TV hucksters survive. Perhaps slabs will give you a similar cover.
At any rate this numismatic “south sea bubble” pops some collectors are going to get hurt. Some of them will cry and complain, but my sympathy will be limited for them. If they have read what I have written, my attitude will be, “You were warned.”
Now you hucksters can descend upon me and tear me to ribbons. I have heard it all before, but let’s see you can come up with any new and innovative points. I doubt it.
<< <i>cladking, I gotta hand it you... you are very persistant and alway's make a good point for moderns. I alway's read your ENTIRE post and try to understand your views. mike
Thank you Darktone. It's just as tiring for me to post in defence of moderns as
it is for us to read the posts. It might surprise some to know that it's actually possible
to appreciate these coins without collecting them or studying them.
that is one of the most well stated things I have read on these boards in QUITE some time.
you are a dealer in classical coins and are promoting your agenda by bashing moderns. This statement is as true as what you said in your post, or as false. You make the determination.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
It's merely his opinion Mark.
<< <i>Full-time dealer and collector of mostly 19th century U.S. coins and tokens. I sell hand-picked certified coins and raw tokens. Email: billsnotes@tampabay.rr.com >>
That is a forsale ad? Fooled me.
a nice coin from him. Most of my coins are not what I call moderns, they are preclad era and earlier. Yet somehow when I defend moderns, I am doing
something wrong.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Call me nuts or smart but I am of the same mindset of him. I hate to see people pay ludicrous prices for coins based solely on plastic but if that is what they want to do, who am I to say anything or change that? It's their money and their enjoyment.
When I buy a coin I only buy a coin that is worth as much OUTSIDE of the plastic as it is encased INSIDE of it.
It seems like there's always a coin mentioned that someone pays an exhorbitant price for that is pop 1 that soon becomes a pop 200 as time goes on. Not saying there aren't some true rarities in the modern world, but some of the population rarities are just that, rarities in population not in real life.
<< <i>mark I know he's a dealer but I am merely saying that he doesn't come on here touting his wares and trying to sell his stuff. I have never even seen him list a coin on the B/S/T board.
Call me nuts or smart but I am of the same mindset of him. I hate to see people pay ludicrous prices for coins based solely on plastic but if that is what they want to do, who am I to say anything or change that? It's their money and their enjoyment.
When I buy a coin I only buy a coin that is worth as much OUTSIDE of the plastic as it is encased INSIDE of it. >>
The difference is that your concerns, while possibly misplaced, are not mean spirited
and unreasoning. You've never called anyone a huckster or a thief as billjones repeatedly has (or implied).
Nor do you simply choose to ignore everything which doesn't fit your preconcieved ideas.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
And, no, I have not warned people about overpriced modern coins because I wanted them to switch to classics and buy from me. I write this in the same spirit as an honest, competent financial advisor would tell clients to avoid certain overpriced investments. ANYTHING can be overpriced, EVEN the so-called Classic coins. Some collectors of Classic coins have learned that to their sorrow when they put their collections up for auction. I’ve been buying coins for over 40 years. I’ve seen a lot of ups and downs in all areas of the market.
At any rate I know that have made a number of collectors who have paid speculative prices for modern coins angry at me for questioning their assumptions. You are probably one them, mdwoods. Given that I seriously doubt that any of those folks would ever contact me to purchase coins. But they might re-think their positions, which could be bad news for those who are hyping this market.
As for your “irresponsible statements” remark, I guess that anything that does not agree with your assumption must be “irresponsible.” Although you claim that you are not dealer, you certainly act a person who has a major financial stake in this segment of the market. If not, why are you so emotional about it?
I'm small time dealer with minimal influence. I find it truly amazing that I can elicit such passionate responses from those of you who make the high priced modern coin market.
I've spent close to two years compiling a complete date set of Ikes. I've looked at hundreds of uncirculated coins, and continue to do so: upgrading a piece here and there with one that has perhaps a slightly better luster, or one less bag mark. I've personally opened dozens of mint and proof sets to get at the coins I wanted, to be certain that they were properly handled. (I got very cranky when dealers would send me proofs with fingerprints on them and then proceed to tell me that that's how they came from the mint.)
Why do I do this? Because I happen to like the Ikes, and I enjoy the hunt. I have a great appreciation for Ike as a president, and I'm fascinated with that particular period in US history. I house my collection in a Dansco album in which I've included the two Ike commems in unc and proof (one of the few US commems with a janiform portrait), the WWII commem (with Ike's quote on the back) in proof, and a West Point proof dollar to boot, since he was an alumnus of that presitgious institution.
Should I expect any financial gain from my efforts? No. I do it merely for the joy of collecting.
I'll leave my financial gain to real investments like my mutual funds, which sadly enough have only begun to regain their original buy value over the last year. Sigh.........
Don't ask me to invest in coins. I'm not one of P.T. Barnum's suckers.
We ARE watching you.
<< <i>
I'm small time dealer with minimal influence. I find it truly amazing that I can elicit such passionate responses from those of you who make the high priced modern coin market. >>
I don't want to bust your bubble here guy, but it would appear most of the reputable
modern people wrote you off as a crank a long time ago. It's just me left now, and I'm
trying to ignore you.
Because it alienates new collectors who come here seeking knowledge and kinship. You didn't read my initial post either by the sounds of your posts. And I happen to like all coins, including moderns. I don't like it when someone twists what I was trying to say. You ignored what I was trying to say and hopped up on your soapbox like you always do and changed the spirit of the thread. That's what makes me emotional.
Besides that Bill, the people who make the modern market haven't said a word in this thread. I'm talking about the big boys who slabs hundred and thousands of coins at a shot. My last submission of mderns was 12 coins. I don't think I'm much of a market maker.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
You are about as pure a collector as I have even met on these boards. I don't share your enthusiasm for Ike Dollars, but I have approached my collection of early half dimes with similar motives. I’ve upgraded coins in that collection at prices that were well over the bid/ask levels and have sold off the duplicate and replaced coins at losses.
Why did I do this? I have enjoyed the series. Until recently I would have lost money on my collection if I had sold it, but I did not care. I just enjoyed the coins!
To me a profit from my collection is a pleasant by-product, which is great if it happens. It’s not my primary objective.
As for my business, well, there I am just another greedy capitalist with desire to serve my customers with truthfulness and honesty.
Besides that Bill, the people who make the modern market haven't said a word in this thread. I'm talking about the big boys who slabs hundred and thousands of coins at a shot. My last submission of mderns was 12 coins. I don't think I'm much of a market maker.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
My issue is with stuff that 95% of the legitimate dealer community either publicly or privately thinks is way overpriced. What wrong with expressing that view? What is the sin? Do you think that new collectors should hear only ONE point of view?
Please don’t distort what I write. That’s how the promoters always respond to my posts
One has to make the distinction between collecting for fun and collecting for profit. I agree that moderns bring in many new collectors, however, new collectors are frequently drawn into the "investment hype" propogated by unscrupulous dealers trying to drive the market, each one vying for their turn at the steering wheel.
I believe everyone here has a good point, and we are looking at both sides of the coin, if you will.
We ARE watching you.
Most are cheap enough to buy to just have a real nice specimen. When I came back into collecting in the 90s, I collected large cents, so I am not a new collector who started
with moderns. Nor is my collection focused on moderns, although it once was.
Oh yes Bill, you did say this little statement. "Frankly I’m tired of it, so I’m going to write something that is going REALLY get you modern coin promoters and huskers angry. "
There is a difference between someone promoting moderns and a modern huckster trying to rip people off. You decided to lump them together. You shouldn't be surprised that such statements elicit strong repsonses.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i> My main issue is with the overpriced modern coin, ... >>
How about writing a price guide so we know how much to pay.
<< <i>Frankly I’m tied of it, so I’m going to write something that is going REALLY get you modern coin promoters and huskers angry. >>
You're "tied" of the "huskers" are you. And going to intentionally make them angry Who could possibly take this for trolling?
<< <i>You take your positions on modern coins for personal gain. You want to drive the prices up on these pieces so that you make great profits from them in very short periods of time. You make perfectly silly comments like, “No modern coin can ever be overpriced,” >>
You've made this same ridiculous statement several times, yet have never shown that anyone said it. No one wants to drive up prices nor is anyone likely foolish enough to believe it's possible. Comments have been made to the effect that these coins are often underpriced because they are underappreciated.
<< <i>because you are hoping to take something for which you have paid $50, including the slab fee, and sell it for $5,000 or more. >>
Some of my coins are worth in excess of this and were purchased for far less.
<< <i>You don’t care about the growth of this hobby. You only care about making huge mark-ups. You don’t care if you drive off this batch nascent collectors in the long run if you can turnover some big bucks now. And if you drive off this crop of pigeons maybe you will get lucky and restart the cycle with a new flock. >>
This certainly couldn't be intended to inflame.
<< <i> Now the FTC has allowed a new loophole. If a coin is packaged in some sort of a display, you can get away with charging more for it because the FTC is not going to get involved in putting a price on the total “presentation.” That’s one of the ways that the TV hucksters survive. Perhaps slabs will give you a similar cover. >>
Do you believe there's a lot of collusion? Care to elaborate?
<< <i>At any rate this numismatic “south sea bubble” pops some collectors are going to get hurt. Some of them will cry and complain, but my sympathy will be limited for them. If they have read what I have written, my attitude will be, “You were warned.” >>
You overrate the importance of your words.
<< <i> Now you hucksters can descend upon me and tear me to ribbons. I have heard it all before, but let’s see you can come up with any new and innovative points. I doubt it. >>
I'd much rather ignore you.
Why isn't there a contingent of people constantly bashing the toned Morgan market?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>There is a difference between someone promoting moderns and a modern huckster trying to rip people off. You decided to lump them together. You shouldn't be surprised that such statements elicit strong repsonses. >>
Frankly md, I don' see much of a distiction. If looks, acts and sells like a boiler room operation it is one.
One dealer friend of mine laid it out to me this way. "If you sell a coin to somebody for $8,000 but would not buy back the SAME coin for at least $7,000, you are not honest. Most of the guys I see who are selling this stuff are not offering buy prices that are commenserate with thier selling prices."
That pretty well sums it up for me.
I don’t care the way the toned Morgan Market is if one has to pay huge premiums for very common date coins. I even turned down a want list from a well-known collector who posts here quite often because I don’t agree with the pricing.
If others want to do it, fine, but I would give this advice. Try to sell a coin now and then to someone who seems to specialize in toned Morgans. If they are willing to pay you a price that is fair relative to what you paid you are OK. If not then maybe it’s time to re-think.
Anytime you go into an area of the market that is out of the mainstream, you need to do a reality check now and then. That’s just prudent.
Everyone knows that the high-priced-slabbed market is a waning phenomenon by now. It wouldn't have happened if there weren't collectors buying into the hype from the very start, after all, it takes the proverbial two to tango.
And yes, Russ, there is a contingent of toned Morgan bashers. As a darksider who owns hundreds of silver world coins, I can tell you from personal experience that silver (depending on the alloy), only RARELY gets monster toning. And yet, you see it all the time on the liteside. Another market fabricated by coin doctor dealers.
We ARE watching you.
I wonder what Barney thinks of the toned Morgan market?
I think they're pretty, well some of them. I'd buy one if I liked it but can't ever find them at my flea market!
The coin market is rife with dealers and collectors trying to make high grades in recently minted coins to turn a huge profit. There simply is no way to dispute that. There is a financial risk in purchasing high priced recently minted coins that no one not even the most astute collector or dealer can deny or quantify. No one has that crystal ball. There will be winners and losers. I agree with Bill I don't won't to be one of the losers so I sit on the sidelines. There will be those that unknowingly that get into that market unaware of the potential risk and those who enter it knowing the risks.
Most of us have seen what happens to recently minted coin registry sets that are high grades when they go to market. A lot of them do not sell for near what the collector paid for them or languish months later unsold in dealers inventories.
Personally I'd rather invest $1200 into a proof 65 1936 Washington then a proof 70 DCAM SAE, because there is a track record on the value. Whatever your bent is when it comes to collecting unless you have money to throw away, Bill's cautionary remarks are worthwhile hearing whether you belive them or not. It's obvious his passion is there for the right reasons.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>Like it or not, modern coins bring a lot of people into the hobby. When you make broad negative statements about moderns, your remarks can be >>
OK md, I've read your initial post. Where are my "broad negative comments about moderns?" I've laid out my concerns about segment of that market which covers only extremely high priced modern coins, which are almost always in high MS PCGS. That’s hardly “broad.”
Is any criticism of the modern coin market permissible? Or is one peep of decent categorized strictly as “bashing?”
Do our mottos have to be, "Modern coins they are all good," and "It is totally impossible to overprice a modern coin?"
If you substituted classic coins in those sentances I would NEVER agree with them.
Why lay out your concerns in a thread that had no relevance to your concerns? Why call me a huckster for promoting modern coins? I NEVER ONCE SAID TO BUY TOP POP COINS. You aren't going to lose your ass buying a MS68 state quarter, Sac or Lincoln. You sit down and go through mint sets and see how much money you make. You'll be lucky to break even.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Where did I say such a thing? You twist words better than a trial lawyer.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>Cladking: it's interesting to see how differently people see the same things. I don't find Bill's comments the least bit inflammatory, unless you want to call the blunt truth inflammatory, which I suppose it frequently is. >>
The man called me and all who deal or speculate in moderns a thief and you call it the "blunt truth".
"In reality you are no difference from “rare coin investment companies” that cropped in the 1970s and ‘80s. Those crooks..."
He has certainly called me worse and has had a fair number of insults for the collectors, graders, and
anyone else connected to moderns.
...and you agree with this?
No where did I label you as making these remarks you chose to put that hat on yourself.
But when you did put it on, it certainly seemed to fit well.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
You dig a deeper hole for yourself everyday. In one lucid moment you did admit that you were a “promoter.” Otherwise it’s hype, hype and more hype built on a mountain of hype.
It’s a shame because you have probably developed an expertise in modern coins that could serve you well. Yet, your inability to step back and temper your enthusiasm with some objectivity negates a lot of your message.
Yes, despite high mintages and high survival rates relative to many classic coins, there are some modern issues that might be worth hundreds of dollars in the high grade to enough collectors to make a REAL market. Even at those prices you are probably sitting on a gold mine.
BUT thousands of dollars? TENS of thousands of dollars? GET REAL. When one can look at what $10,000 can buy in “classic coins” (or perhaps could buy before this market got SO over heated), one needs to put a little thought into their purchases.
That’s all I ask, but for you and your cohorts, that’s an unreasonable comment.
"When you make broad negative statements about moderns, your remarks can be
interpreted as personal."
<< <i>
If these rolls coins are so rare, why are they so cheap on the Gray Sheet? Are there no trades in these rolls? Is that part of a major pricing guide total fiction? What about all the coins in mint sets, and the coins in collectors' sets that these people put away every year for many years? This clad coin in run of the mill Mint State rarity thing that you keep harping on is mostly in your mind. >>
Two points here: First and foremost, they are not all cheap. There are several that list
over $100 now. The '83-P quarter lists over $700 last I looked.
Secondly: There is very little demand for most moderns. The fact that the coins generally
have low prices reflects this fact, not that there is a large supply.
<< <i>
I'll grant you that a lot of these business strike modern coins are very scarce in high grade because many of them were poorly made from the get-go. I'd even give them a higher value than a lot of other "classic" collectors would. But I don't think that they are worth the many thousands of dollars that you try to assign to them. >>
Two points here: First is the fact that some of these are not only hard to find in high grade
but they are also elusive in mid grades. Some of the late '70's cents and the early clads can
be tough to find even in MS-64. The 1969 quarter is tough even choice.
Secondly: I have no particular desire to see the markets for these go to any price. I've never
said there is no price too high. Some of these prices do seem that they may have gotten ahead
of themselves but this is NOT my call. Supply and demand set these prices and since I know some-
thing of supply I've often made inferences about demand.
Personally, I'd much rather see the lower grade coins go up simply because the top specimens are
so rare that few are available.
<< <i>
Why? Because most collectors don't want huge amounts of money tied up on common dates. Quality is great, but even THAT reaches a price limit after a while. >>
Here is one of my posts to your statements in the modern bashers club thread which you chose
to ignore like most of my other posts.
I've certainly never denied being a promoter.
All regular issue moderns are common in some grade. Does this mean they can't or shouldn't be
collected? Are we not to collect uncs because there are billions of the coins in circulation? How about
the varieties and the special coins. Many of these are scarce or rare and simply aren't available to
everyone at any price. Doesn't it seem logical that when assembling modern collections that many
people would want to choose coins which are attractive? Gem? ...and yes some might even want
pop tops.
I fully agree that quality is great and even it reaches a limit. This limit is not my doing. People are
paying these prices because that is what some want and can afford.
Yes, I do believe some of these prices have a long way to go on the upside and I believe that some
have gotten ahead of themselves. But it doesn't matter what I think and, yes, I do avoid talking
about coins I believe are priced too high whether it's a classic or a modern. There are people who
love such coins or make a living with them. It's hardly my place to point out the coins I believe will
go down. I'll simply avoid acquiring such items.
I'm not trying to alienate anyone, and as my experience of the moderns market is limited, I'm going to gracefully bow out of this conversation, and just read the responses so that I can learn more about it.
I certainly don't think of you as a thief. I don't even know you. My agreement with Bill was on purely on philosophical grounds. I apologize for the fact that it may have seemed personal.
We ARE watching you.
Gee, I just can’t see paying $5,000 for an MS68.
Clad coin
Mintage: 2 billion
Grade MS 64 MS65 MS66 MS67 MS68
Price face $5 $15 $65.00 $5,000
Is this bashing classics?
Gee, I just can’t see paying $5,000 for an MS68 example.
Silver dollar
Mintage 9 million
Grade MS 64 MS65 MS66 MS67 MS68
Price $35 $75 $165 $600 $5,000
CG
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>That isn't bashing, >>
I agree. And I thnk that this is all that Bill Jones and others have really said that can be deemed "critical" of moderns.
In that regard, Bill do you sell Washington quarters? For example, pre-1965 dates? If so I would assume that many if not most of the collectors who are buying those intend to assemble a complete set, including the clads. I can't imagine a dealer refusing to sell a 1932 quarter because doing so could lead the customer to acquire the clad pieces.
CG
I've handled a few 1932-D and S quarters in Mint State on a want list basis. Many of those pieces that I have seen i MS-63 and 64 certified of late had marks were too heavy to leave the coin in an attractive condition.
As for selling clad coins, I'd say fine. The problem is most of them are in too low of a grade to be slabbed. And the "super expensive" (thousands of dollars) coins would not be something that I would want to sell. I have no faith in them and would not want to own, sell or put my stamp of approval on them.
1312 Quarter 1968D PCGS 65
Full mint brilliance. White, and nicely struck. Pleasing surfaces. $6.00
1313 Quarter 1969D PCGS 66
Attractive semi-prooflike surfaces. Nicely struck. Exceptional example. $9.00
1329 Quarter 1980P PCGS 67
Full satin-like mint luster. Bright and nicely struck. Immaculate surfaces. Superb! $100.00
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>1329 Quarter 1980P PCGS 67Full satin-like mint luster. Bright and nicely struck. Immaculate surfaces. Superb! $100.00 >>
Wow a top pop coin and only a $100!!! I would have paid like a ka-zillion dollars for it