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Please stop and consider what you are doing when you bash moderns.
mdwoods
Posts: 5,560 ✭✭✭
Like it or not, modern coins bring a lot of people into the hobby. When you make broad negative statements about moderns, your remarks can be
interpreted as personal. Many, if not all people who come here collecting moderns, eventually broaden their collecting interests and most start collecting
Classics to one degree or another. By making smug elitist comments you aren't helping at all. That's just as bad as ridiculing some ebay seller for a stupid
desription. Some people here seem intent on alienating others if they so much as dare admit that they find a high grade Sac attractive. Believe it or not, it
is perfectly okay to like 1/2 cent coins and Sac dollars.
interpreted as personal. Many, if not all people who come here collecting moderns, eventually broaden their collecting interests and most start collecting
Classics to one degree or another. By making smug elitist comments you aren't helping at all. That's just as bad as ridiculing some ebay seller for a stupid
desription. Some people here seem intent on alienating others if they so much as dare admit that they find a high grade Sac attractive. Believe it or not, it
is perfectly okay to like 1/2 cent coins and Sac dollars.
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I know this question is probably going to make me look stupid and out of touch, but who's that taste treat in your sig?
Russ, NCNE
I'll leave you a beautiful 1913 PCGS TYPE 1 MS66 toner Buffalo in my will if you leave me a nice 2 Cent piece. Of course, if I go first, you don't have to send
the 2 Center.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
That actually sounds like a pretty good deal since you're way, way, way older than I am.
Russ, NCNE
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
al h.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>Please stop and consider what you are doing when you bash moderns. >>
Okay...stopping...considering...DONE!
HOW can you collect ugly, mostly non-precious metal junk like that? You MUST be insane!!!
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Yeah, well you are wrong mister, and so are the doctors. BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahah.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
knowing your propensity for snagging them out of sets, combined with your soon-to-be- free time, i have all the faith in the world that they will appear. as for Russ and his half of the deal, well, that goes without saying!!
al h.
<< <i>HOW can you collect ugly, mostly non-precious metal junk like that? >>
Easy - you collect them by color
Anyone should collect whatever it is that he or she likes and do so without fear of harrassment.
Having said that, I do suspect that anyone who pays a huge premium for a modern coin because it is the 'finest known' or 'pop-top' either hasn't done their homework, or hasn't fully explored other facets of the hobby and determined what that same money could purchase in older, genuinely rare coins.
But if these people have done their homework, and they have concluded that these coins are worth the money being paid, then I encourage them to have at it and, if necessary, take out a home equity loan in order to grab as many of these coins as possible before the prices really shoot up.
Collect what you like. It's all good.
the irony in the above statement is that most of the coins referred to as "genuinely rare" aren't, however they do have many, many collectors who want them. hence, the high price, which is always determined by demand more than anything else. in that regard, many of the presumed classic rarities and high-grade-top-pop-registry yada, yada, yada moderns are effectively "sleeping in the same bed" when it comes to pricing. the only genuine point of seperation for the two camps is the error filled presumption of each:
that the high grade modern pops will eventually explode or the demand will slacken, driving prices spiralling downward.
that the numbers of "classic rarities" will never increase.
both these presumptions entail risk which can be minimized by studying up before taking the big plunge, dollar wise. granted, for my money the classic choice will probably be best in the long term, but there are many, many modern high grade coins which are safe bets, also.
i think what Mark is eluding to is the "smug, elitist" point of view that modern collectors are unable to make the determination of which coins are the "right ones" while classic collectors seem to be able to make the proper choice. in that regard, i believe his statement to be very insightful and on target.
al h.
modern stuff is the price. Buy it raw for cheap, and I'll support you for doing it. Buying a slabbed
proof 69 is a total waste of money when you pay triple what the coin would be with the whole
set. Proof coins are the worst. Some of the MS coins seem rare, but you must remember there
are hundred of millions of these coins out there. There will be hundred of thousands of them
in hoards. For fun yes, for investment, no.
Rusty
<< <i>OK, I have bashed enough modern stuff that a response is necessary. My main objection to
modern stuff is the price. Buy it raw for cheap, and I'll support you for doing it. Buying a slabbed
proof 69 is a total waste of money when you pay triple what the coin would be with the whole
set. >>
Don't you think that it's just a little bit presumptuous for you to tell other people how to spend their money?
This is the biggest problem I have with modern bashers. It's my money. I'll do with it what I like. Frankly, it's none of your business.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
It probably sounds like bashing when I warn new collectors about paying huge multiples for a single grade point on moderns, but my intent is only to caution them against putting a lot of money into something before they really understand it. As a group, I think we give people the impression that coins are somewhat like the stock market - a well-established system where you can buy and sell easily. That is not always the case. It's a lot easier to buy than it is to sell. The same thing applies to classics as well - the big premium that a dealer wanted for the proverbial "PQ" coin doesn't always show up when you want to sell.
But most new collectors start with moderns, so I have the impression that they are the ones who might need to hear some words of caution. I just don't want anyone to get clobbered financially.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
my main objection to all coins is the price. why would you limit that statement to moderns? if you "do your homework" you should feel safe buying the object of your desire in the cheaper, raw state, whether that be modern or classic.
this is an inane arguement that really seems to get under the skin of the "anti's" for whatever reason. a little reasoned, openminded contemplation should show that most of the do's and don't's in the hobby are universal and only limited to either side of the equation by the bias of the engagees.
al h.
I remember sitting through the Lincoln Cents in a Heritage Auction. I can't remember the date, I think it was a 1915 P, anyway a 1915 in MS-66 brought $500.00 the next Lot was a 1915 in MS-67 which hammered at $5,000.00. I realize this is not a Modern but it's an example of what I'm talking about.
Is 1 point really worth $4,500.00? At this point in the auction, Leo, the auctioneer, (grinning from ear to ear, shaking his head and muttering words like unbelievable, amazing, etc..) stopped and said I would like to take a minute and thank David Hall (who was in the audience) for the Registry Set idea. This is not a quote, but you get the idea. He also mentioned that you know the Market is Hot when David Hall is attending an auction and buying coins.
And Yes, Modern collectors are good for the hobby.
I happen to think that for me, it's stupid to pay someone else to change my oil. Do I think it's stupid for other people to do so? No.
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It's just not necessary for us to do it. Q. David Bowers has been doing a great job of trying to warn newbies about the bubble in his weekly Coin World column. But, there will likely be those that think Q. David Bowers is doing great harm to the hobby by sounding the warning. Alas, I'm sure he understands better than any of us the much greater harm that will hit the hobby...and especially the newbies that got carried into it..when the modern, slabbed bubble bursts.
Really alas, this is one of those things that we all hope doesn't happen....but that in our hearts realize how lost that hope really is.
OOOPS! Nevermind...I didn't see that there already was a column going about Q.David's warnings.
Just my opinion....but we're all entitled to one even if others disagree.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
.........but Don, that would take most of the bite-and-fun out of bashing!!
al h.
<< <i>I don't think there is any need for any of us here to keep trying to warn newbies about the price bubble in slabbed moderns that has been hyped up by some dealers and the registry craze. >>
I'm curious about how long this price bubble and hype has existed. Has it been a year? Two? Three? What time frame are we talking about for the registry craze that has driven low pop high grade moderns to what some consider stupid prices?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>What time frame are we talking about for the registry craze that has driven low pop high grade moderns to what some consider stupid prices? >>
Anybody remember how long it took the beanie baby bubble to burst?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Les
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
<< <i>Coin bashing used to be fun untill someone said barber coins look like drag queens !!!! >>
I think we should stop bashing coins, and start bashing Web TV users.
Hey, nobody answered my question. How long has this bubble been in play? As a newbie I'm relying on you experienced people to provide this answer so I can decide whether or not to bail out.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Coin bashing used to be fun untill someone said barber coins look like drag queens !!!! >>
LOL, perhaps a bit "Butch?" Come on admit it BL... there sure isn't anything Feminine about the design.
BTW, how do they look on web TV?
It is my opinion, that a serious collector could care less who is "bashing" what and when. If someone is still insecure about what they collect and is worried about who is bashing what and when, then they are not a serious collector in my mind and need to rethink why they are in the hobby in the first place.
From what date forward?
Ah bash the collector instead of the coin eh?
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
If you graph coin prices out vs. time, you'll see the big bubbles form from 1978-early 1980, from the inflation era of high interest rates and oil and precious metal prices,
a big bubble starting in 1986 through the '89 spike and crash (grading revolution and wall street dabbling (or debacle)), a mini bubble in the mid 1990's, and the latest registry craze bubble for the top pop modern coins, as well as the eye appeal and rainbow toned bubbles, which are a couple of years old, still rising and looking a little toppy in some sectors.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
S.T. man, she may not be pretty, but she has that wholesome 1800's farm wife look about her. To me, she is old west Americana. Can't explain it better except to say the first barber coin I ever saw in person, I bought. She has me wrapped around her wether worn farm gal fingers.
Les
BTW, I'm sure those Innocent farm gals are still just like a Hurricane.. always going for the house in the end.
<< <i>OK, I have bashed enough modern stuff that a response is necessary. My main objection to
modern stuff is the price. Buy it raw for cheap, and I'll support you for doing it. Buying a slabbed
proof 69 is a total waste of money when you pay triple what the coin would be with the whole
set. Proof coins are the worst. Some of the MS coins seem rare, but you must remember there
are hundred of millions of these coins out there. There will be hundred of thousands of them
in hoards. For fun yes, for investment, no.
Rusty >>
Wanna bet? There may be hundreds of thousands and even millions of some of
the cents, but you'll find the higher denominations much more difficult. Even with
the cents the supply is spotty and some dates will have widespread environmental
damage.
<< <i>only time will tell wether it's actually modern bashing or a warning from those that know better or at least think they do. mike >>
Absolutely not true. Even if the bashers are proven correct about the dangers of
moderns, the fact remains that not all the bashers are primarily concerned with the
welfare of those buying the coins. Some are simply mean spirited and unreasoning.
They either hate moderns so much as to be blinded by rage or they see the modern
market as "infringing" on the coins they themselves sell.-or both.
If the bashers are proven wrong it is hardly an indictment of those who sincerely want
what's best for newbies and the hobby and bash the coins today.
Generally markets have a way of proving all the prognosticators wrong in the long run.
Parts of what we all say will be correct, but we'll all be wrong overall.
<< <i>In all due respect, this subject has gotten more stale than 5 day old Panera Bread rolls.
It is my opinion, that a serious collector could care less who is "bashing" what and when. If someone is still insecure about what they collect and is worried about who is bashing what and when, then they are not a serious collector in my mind and need to rethink why they are in the hobby in the first place. >>
I collect coins because I love coins and this is a very inclusive term to me. It means anything
die struck or cast that has been used as money anywhere at anytime or might have been used.
It can even include things which look like money but didn't actually get used as such.
I collect different items to different standards and parameters. While I certainly collect moderns,
I also have set aside some quantities of lesser grade and scarcer issues for the purpose of spec-
ulation. The performance of these coins is of some importance to me both from a personal stand-
point and a hobby standpoint. It seems highly improbable a new generation of collectors can be
recruited without the modern rarities attaining a greatly higher value.JMHO.
<< <i>How long has this bubble been in play?
>>
Modern coins bottomed out in 1995 with the rest of the coin market. The moderns
with very few exceptions had never been widely sought or collected yet they were
still declining from their mint issue price or the price which they had attained on spec-
ulation shortly after issue. Many of the mint and proof sets had reached prices close
to face value and even less in some cases. There had been a small but active grass-
roots collecting of these coins for many years. Some of the popular series had only a
few dozen collectors but they were actively seeking varieties and he best coins they
could find. In 1995 the demand they created began lifting up the prices of some of these
sets whose populations had been decimated by years of neglect and cherry picking.
By mid '97 it was known the states coins were to be introduced and this spurred fur-
ther growth in interest and demand. About this time, too, the registries started allow-
ing for moderns but prices among those in the field had already escalated by this time.
In '99 the first of he newbies were starting to look at other moderns also and the de-
mand ratcheted up further.
Whatever lies in the future, one thing is certain; some of these coins are not only rare
in ultra high grade but are rare in mid grades as well. There will be surprises for the mod-
ern lovers as well as the bashers.