I think that I have to say that it is unethical to do what you did. I didn't read all of this thread because I am at work and would probably get fired, so I hope that I am not restating what others have said. Here's by position on this subject:
This is UNETHICAL because you are using the dealers advertising money and overhead which attracts sellers of coins. It's like being a vulture. This is analogous to walking up and down the line of cars in a McDonald's drive-thru to sell cans of coke for $0.75 per can. If you want to buy coins from the public, then place an advertisement in the phone book. Your actions were really chicken-$hit, imo, but I still like you and many of your posts, so keep 'em coming. Hope I helped you understand what you did wrong.........
Using the dealer's advertising money? lol..if you're at a coin show and see Grandpa selling his coin. Dealer A offers him $400 and you offer him $450. In my opinion you're doing that person a favor by giving them $50 more than he was originally offered. How is that unethical? If you told the guy you would offer him 3.5x face in the shop then yes, that's unethical but if the guy already declined the dealer's offer for 3x face then heck yes, it's ethical.
Likewise, when you sell your coins, you're going to go to the company that gives you the most money, right? I absolutely do not understand this b*tching and complaining over simple competition.
Maybe you shouldn't be a salesman if you can't handle it. Put it in perspective, none of your coins would be worth anything if there wasn't competition and people driving the prices up and willing to offer more. This is what makes you money and now you're complaining about the very thing that does just that...hmmm
I just had a better idea: why not just set-up a card table in front of the coin store every day and place coins for sale on the table?? You could even add a sign that says "paying 3.5X face for silver". Then, each day you and the coin store owner could go to lunch and talk about business. You could tell him over a Whopper w/cheese that you just ripped some old lady that was on her way into the store to sell some junk silver from the early 1800's and he could tell you about how he hasn't bought a dang thing in weeks. Could be fun!
Let me use another analogy. Let's say I'm a car salesman. You're the buyer and you're in the market for a nice SUV but you want the best deal with the best financing available, you have perfect credit.
You go to Chuck's Jeeps and he says I'll give you a new Wrangler for X amount of money. You say thanks Chuck, I'm shopping around and I'll think about it. You then go to Bob's Jeeps 5 minutes later and down the street and Bob offers you a couple grand off what Chuck had offered and here you are not even negotiating with Bob. He just wants the deal. So you then tell Bob. Hey Bob, you got a deal. Sign me up. No different with coins my friends. It is fair competition. The car salesman from Bob's is not going to go over to Chuck's and steal Chuck's customer, but once the customer is off Chuck's lot, Bob can do whatever the heck he wants. This is called competition.
Let's go even further and say that you saw Chuck's commercial on your local television station last week. It is this commercial that draws you into Chuck's shop, his advertising dollars, but you aren't going to pay more for the Jeep simply because Chuck had to pay for his commercial, you're going to go with Bob because you're a smart consumer.
cherrypickincoin, your analogy makes no sense. Adjust it to have Bob (who doesn't own a car dealership) hanging around Chuck's Jeep and telling customers as they leave that he can get order the car they want for less, and maybe you'd have a closer analogy.
But there's no need for any analogy, it's common sense and courtesy.
The ONLY reason that NoGvmnt was able to contact the guy with the silver in the first place is because of the expense, time and risk that the DEALER incurred to have that shop open to the public.
And NoGvmnt can't even claim white-knight status, defender of the chiseled public. The dealer offered a FAIR price to the guy for a bunch of circulated silver, and it was happily accepted. To subvert future honest transactions by intercepting that dealer's customer -- whether in the shop or outside it -- is not fair competition, it is unethical.
NoGvmnt, if you don't like your dealer's store hours, that's a separate issue. Maybe you should open your own store, whereupon you can buy silver at 3x face at whichever times you choose. Assuming one of your customers doesn't snipe you, of course.
Very interesting threads, it reminds me of the ethics course (which was a requirement) I took to get my MBA. The first night we took an ethics test and 32 out of 35 people flunked it. The course was taught by a nice wise elderly gentlemen who over 12 weeks helped us to understand not only what ethics were but how to develope a solid ethical foundation and how to apply it in our lives.
One of the first lessons we learned was that you can not mask your behavior by excusing it with phrases like "it was ok because he was a crook or scumbag". One's behavior is not excusable because of his. Ethics don't change because someone else is unethical.
Secondly, it is not ethical to benefit financially from some one else's effort and expense and you did this because of the reasons already mentioned. This dealer expended money to pay rent, pay taxes, to advertise etc., that you did not spend. The customer was there at his shop either because of an ad, a sign etc. i.e. some sort of expenditure on his part.
Thirdly, having 20 or 30 or 100 people telling you that something is ethical doesn't make it so. In the final analysis you only made this deal because of someone else's expenditure not your own. Being in the right place at the right time is not an issue of ethics. It's how you got to the right place at the right time that is at issue as did the customer.
<< <i>Using the dealer's advertising money? lol..if you're at a coin show and see Grandpa selling his coin. Dealer A offers him $400 and you offer him $450. In my opinion you're doing that person a favor by giving them $50 more than he was originally offered. How is that unethical? >>
If you did this on a regular basis at shows and did NOT pay for a table,you will soon have plenty of time to figure out whether or not it`s ethical,when you`re out in the parking lot...of course I guess you can start sniping out there...until the police show up!
A dealer once asked me if I noticed any three-legged buffalos on the bourse,to which I replied,"...no,but I saw alot of two-legged jackasses..."
Bear, I never said that the dealers offer of 3x face was not a fair offer. And, the dealer did purchase the quarters from the guy. As far as you claiming that I made the dealer look bad, frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. The fact is, the seller and I actually spent about 10 minutes in the parking lot talking value,silver content, and scarcity of certain low mintage dates.
Irish Mike, the seller brought in 1 bag of silver quarters to sell and the dealer got that bag at his price, what now, the seller is REQUIRED to sell the rest of his coins that he didn't bring to the dealer because he made 1 transaction with the dealer? Please, when you sell your collection in piecemeal fashion, you are required to sell everything to the same person at whatever price the dealer quotes even though you know that you can get a better price elsewhere. How utterly rediculous. So, if I put an ad in the yellow pages everyone in MY neighborhood MUST sell their coins to me regardless of whether or not I offer the best price? HA!!!
(the originator of the thread has mentioned that the owner p*ssed him off, so perhaps this is even a little retaliatory?)
zenny, where did I ever state that the dealer Pissed me off? I never said that! Chyt happens, so he wasn't there, big deal. My point in posting the fact that he wasn't at the shop on saturday, even when his hours listed on the door indicated that the shop was normally open on Saturday, was in response to whoever it was that made the statement that the dealer could possibly close and he worked so hard. The fact is if the dealer was in such financial straights as some here would have people believe, he would not have taken Saturday off. Geeeezzz, you people twist this around so much just to justify your position.
Jim, you did not fairly state what I said in my post. You asked for an opinion in your title and you got it. I never said the seller was required to sell all of his future coins to this dealer. What is at issue was whether or not what YOU did was ethical. I tried to explain to you the reasons why it is not considered ethical for YOU to offer to buy his coins. The seller would never had known that you were an interested buyer had YOU not told him. Your offer was unethical as it pertains to the dealer not the seller.
Lastly if you don't want honest discourse on this forum then don't solicit it. You twisted what I said or failed to comprehend it. Once again let me repeat myself I NEVER said that the seller was obligated to sell his coins to any one individual. Please resist from posting what you think I said rather then what I said. Thank you.
I think you potentially caused this dealer to lose future business. Therefore, I think it was ill-advised to solicit his customer via your presence in his shop. If you wish to buy junk silver from the general public, then you have the option of trying to reach them through the local paper or at the local coin club or coin show. You might even convince an antique dealer to let you put up a flyer in their store.
But, your gain may have caused that dealer to lose business and you reached that customer by virtue of being in his shop. Does it matter that it was in the parking lot? Well, you can also go through the dumpster behind the dealer's shop and try to get the names and addresses of his other customers.....is that so terribly different?
You asked for an opinion...otherwise I wouldn't express an opinion. I think most (or many) of us on this forum have been in your shoes in a coin shop and had to face the same temptation. I think you had momentary lapse of bad judgement.
But....that's only my opinion. What you think of what you did is much more important.
Bear, listen weasel, the dealer doesn't own the seller, he is free to sell to whomever he pleases.
The conversation between the seller and myself was off the dealers property, the dealers transaction was over and I advised the seller if he had any more silver coins to sell that I was willing to pay more for them.
This garbage about me lurking around the dealers store is just that, garbage. I was in the right place at the right time and you know what they say, when oppertunity knocks....
Answer me this, if I placed an advertisement on the free bulletin board offering 3.5x face for silver coins at the supermarket where there is a coinstar machine, would THAT be unethical?
I have been reading the thread, and it has been interesting.....I kept from saying anything because I had a similar thing happen just a week or so ago, and I even put a poll on it.
But, some of the "analogies" that are being used...and things being said, I have to comment on....
First, dealers do NOT OWN customers. As a customer, please do NOT claim me...ok?!?!! I can go to ANY dealer I want and I don't want a dealer saying I am theirs. FREE country. To put it in a little "red light", I used to go to strip clubs (the horrors ) and, some of the dancers would get to know me. I wondered why some of the other dancers would be pleasant but not ask me for any dances....seems that the first dancer or two let it be known that I was THEIR customer! I appreciated that coming from very attractive women, but, I still let it be known that I was a free person. I haven't seen a coin dealer yet that could match up physically to those dancers, so I am darn well not going to be "owned" by one of them!
Second, there is a lot of talk of the "ethics" of benefitting from someone else's business' efforts and advertising. I will agree that it may not be ethical, but, please leave it to the coin shop analogy....don't take it to other businesses. If you do, then, you may be right about the ethics, but it shows you don't pay much attention to common business practices. I took courses in college (I have a simple degree in business...no masters so I am not trying to pull a "holier than thou...just relating where this came from) that pertained to business and ethics. It was also pointed out that rarely do you see a gas station without another one across the street. Or, a fast food without another one across the street/corner. By the reasoning that some have used in this thread, if McDonald's had a store and advertised with a billboard, and Wendy's was across the street and didn't advertise, then they shouldn't get any of the people that saw the McDonald's advertising. Businesses use other businesses' funds/advertising on a daily basis. That is real world. Now, the side argument that others will use in this scenario is that it is ok because Wendy's has to pay for the store and land too, so there is investment. While that is true, don't forget they didn't advertise and some/many of their customers are ONLY there because they saw the McDonald's signs. So, PLEASE just leave the analogy to the coin store because when you take it out of context, there is so much else that can come into play and really corrupt the nature of it or what really is happening.
Third, I can understand how some of your dealers feel....I really can. You get defensive when thinking of people being a predator to your life. I can appreciate that. I hope you are all as good to your customers as you seem to be on the forum (I am sure you are ). But, there are dealers that aren't. Not everything is black and white. Just like in another thread, it is hard to cry "FOUL" until hearing more, or the other side or two, of the story.....but, many people have no problems just jumping in, very harshly, when hearing part of something. Human nature. Aggressive.
Ever been to a bestbuy, circuit city, etc and seen something and either tell someone else, or have them tell you, if the thing you are looking at is cheaper somewhere else? According to ethics as stated here (to take the analogy away from the coin store) you shouldn't do that. So, no one should tell you how to save/make more money if you are in some business area or have boughten there before! (that's why I ask to not leave the coin store analogy).
Fourth, I repeat #1 above....DO NOT LAY CLAIM TO ME as a customer. He is not MY dealer...he can be a dealer to anyone. I won't stop him. The moment I find out a dealer tells another dealer I am HIS, is the moment I stop buying/selling from him. I have started going to coin shows....if I take my bag of silver quarters to dealer #1, and the area he has paid for, and get a quote from him, does that mean when I am across the bourse and just standing there, another dealer can't say something like "hey....I see you running that silver through your hands....it's kind of slow right now and I have time....want me to take a look and make you an offer if you are willing to sell?"? Then what? I sell and the first dealer gets mad because I was "his"? NO. Plain and simple, NO.
So, it wouldn't be ethical to poach in someone else's business (and I didn't....see my other thread if you are interested....or not). But, it is a business practice to solicit customers at the cheapest method available. While another dealer can't do it in a dealer's storefront, once they leave premises, they are fair game (I am not saying I agree/disagree with this....just saying what can be done).
And, in case people want to question me/my ethics, I think my personal ethics are very high and I have had no problems with people I have boughten coins/items from. I just can see beyond my own ethics to get an understanding of how things work, and how others are....not everyone acts as good/bad as I do and so it is better for me to understand them. If I condemn others because they don't act like I do, or how I want....well, I think that is wrong. That is IMHO..
Thanks...sorry for the somewhat rant...but, I just can't stand to see a possessive nature on a customer. In the business world I was in before it was called "scooping" and "eating someone else's lunch".
Good post, but you've confused me (which is easy to do).
Your comment of
"While another dealer can't do it in a dealer's storefront, once they leave premises, they are fair game (I am not saying I agree/disagree with this....just saying what can be done)."
seems irrelevant to the question posed.
The question is "Is it ethical", not whether or not it "Can be done.".
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
In response to the dealer paying $250 for the $20 gold I have to say this: Having been a dealer in sports cards and related items, what all must understand is this. EVERY DAY someone comes in to your shop to sell something....EVERY DAY. Overhead is expensive and bills must get paid. My first question was always "how much do you want?" I once bought a 1951 Bowman Mickey Mantle rookie for $1000. That card was worth $9000 at the time. 86/87 Fleer Basketball sets (the holy grail of basketball card sets) I bought 9 sets for $300 (and sold the Jordan rookies for $500 each). As a dealer you have 2 choices, ask how much they want and make a offer. It is up to the individual to make the decision whether to take the money or decline the offer. They walked in the door, the dealer did not drag them in.
As for the ethics concerning the original question...no problem.....outside is free space, a smart dealer would ask if there was anymore. If the person said yes and then you confronted him outside that would be wrong.
sorry if I misinterpreted your comment about the seller not being there when he was supposed to, but the fact that you added in just how long it took you to get there led me to believe you were at least a little annoyed at going out of your way, (in addition to your obvious intent of showing how well off this guy is that he can take a whole day off on a saturday).
I still think supercoin has the best possible way to deal with the situation, although you refuse to acknowledge his suggestion.
You are right that the quote of mine you used was not pertinent to the initial post....but, i said it because I believe(d) it is/was pertinent to things that others have said during the thread....I have read each and every post for the thread as I found it interesting.
I put it there kind of to see if any of the dealers that have posted how rotten the OP was to do what he did had approached customers that have worked with other dealers. Coinshows seem to be an easy place for that to happen...each dealer pays for a spot but once someone (customer) goes to a dealer, is he considered "no longer available" by other dealers? I don't think so. It was just to point out that people are treating things black/white with very little info supplied and there is always so much more to things.
I don't think the deal was unethical at all. It was done outside the shop, after 2 consenting adults closed a sale. There was no interference in that deal.
No dealer can "own" a customer; that's silly, and un-American. It's supposed to be a free market, right? Or are we in a command economy, like the USSR, where all deals were to be planned by the central committee?? In what way was the customer obliged to always and exclusively do business with that dealer?! I agree it wouldn't be right to interrupt the ongoing deal, and Jim could have offered the dealer 3.5X for the coins just bought by the dealer. However, that has nothing at all to do with the situation at hand, which involves other coins. And the dealer was not interested in any further business with the seller, or he would have asked the seller if he had any more, as Jim did later, in a public space.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Say, for example, you have a completely uncommercialized strip of road with nothing on it but a shopping mall. The mall becomes very popular. A small clothes store on the other side of town closes down and moves right across the street from the mall (of course benefitting greatly from the amount of increased traffic that they didn't create for themselves, not to mention stealing many of the mall's customers). Ethical?
What if the store (let's say a clothes store) adjacent to the coin shop was owned by a man who dabbled in coins. Say he put a large advertising billboard on the walk in front of his store that read "sell your coins to me - I'll pay you 10% more than the coin shop". Ethical?
Say I'm walking downtown for lunch and heading to Burger King. I'm two doors away and someone advertising for Mr. Sub hands me a sale flyer and draws me into their shop instead. Ethical?
The term grasshopper is not intended as an insult, it refers to someone not fully understanding of the results of their actions.
Bear, a grasshopper is an insignificant little bug, please do not attempt to blow smoke up my arse by claiming that your referring to me as “grasshopper” was anything other than a condescending attempt to either brown-nose fellow coin dealers and/or belittle me.
Yes, I posted a thread where opinions were solicited, but, people are capable of expressing their opinions and including their thoughts in support of those opinions without resorting to personal attacks. As a matter of fact it is those opinions that do not resort to personal attacks which are more credible. If you need to resort to personal attacks in order to justify your opinion, don’t expect me to just lay down and take it. I do respect and appreciate everyone’s opinion, along with their right to express their opinion, but, when anyone resorts to including personal attacks in their opinion they confer upon me the right respond in kind.
Thought provoking issues are what I like to post. It’s not my style to just continuously post threads of submission results day after day that contain the same blue, or yellow, or red, or pink toned proof Jefferson nickels so that the same members can post the same, gratuitous “nice coin” responses day, after day, after day. I mean no offense to Jefferson collectors, but, come on, a blue nickel is a blue nickel is a blue nickel already.
<< <i>After the guy came outside I asked him if he had any more silver coins and offered him 3.5x face, he said he had a lot more at home and I gave him my phone number.
Was this "ethical"?
Jim >>
As I stated before, as a one time enterprise the ethics of this behavior is marginal at best, anything more than a one shot deal, i.e. attempting to turn it into some sort of cottage coin poaching industry is clearly improper. If you want to run a business, do it the big boy way.
Why is there such resistance to supercoin's concept that everybody can be happy? Customer gets his premium, dealer gets his premium, end buyer gets the product for the exact same price - it's not rocket science, simply living on a higher plane....
Are some of you guys for real? Waiting or following a customer out of anyones store to do business does not make a person unethical, it makes them a scumbag. I cannot beleive people that call themselves honest collectors and ambassadors to the Hobbie would condone this behavior, hell, even the scummiest dealers know better than to do that to a business. The original poster simply unaware and had a gut feeling it was wrong,henceforth his question, but some of you guys should know better.
Even at coin show which is public forum,Tell me this, would it be ethical to follow you around a show, listen to what your trying to do and make counteroffers on everything you are trying to buy?
For those that think it's ok, Post your real name if you dare, Im sure some of would like to know who you are before you walk in their place to steal business.
If you think a guy is too cheap on his buy prices etc..Then do the ethical thing, open a store across the street and buy bags of silver for $3400 and try and make a hundred to keep your doors open.
This thread inspired me to start a new business, and yesterday was my first day on the job. I live in a neighborhood that is visited by "the icecream man" everyday between Noon and 3 pm. He drives a somewhat dilapitated old truck that has a crackling speaker that plays kid music. I decided that it would be a great idea to buy some ice cream from the grocery store and then follow him around the neighborhood in my 1998 Jeep. As kids ran out to buy ice cream from the ice cream man, I would get out of my car with a cooler full of ice cream that is half the price of the ice cream man's treats.
I sold about $50 worth of ice cream and made about $25 profit on the deal. Unfortunately, the $25 profit does not cover the deductible on my medical insurance, especially the $100 deductible on the ambulance ride that I took yesterday. You see, the ice cream man did not like me being a blood-sucking, chicken-$hit leech on his business by following him around and stealing his captive, loyal clientele that he drew in with the music on his truck.
He took the law into his own hands and now I am retired from the ice cream truck business. The irony is that I just had a cup of ice cream for lunch, even though I had to "eat" it through a straw..........
In my book Guys that try to take the customers in the parking lot are known as bottom feeders.
There are a few key points to remember here,
1. When that customer comes back to the shop (and he will) he will tell the dealer about your offer, and if the dealer remembers who was there that day you will be on his $hit list. The dealer will see to it that the other shops know how you do business and they will be UNFREINDLY when it comes to business WITH YOU.
2. When you come around you will find that the prices seem to have gone up a bit.
3. Remember the shops you used to go to, Remember them well, because they dont want you around any more.
4. Here is an important point for the sellers, if you are at a coin store and you are aproched by somebody about your personal business DONT SET YOUR SELF UP TO GET RIPPED OFF. Dont Give any information.
<< <i>Waiting or following a customer out of anyones store to do business does not make a person unethical, it makes them a scumbag. >>
Succinct and to the point. The clowns that believe that behavior is acceptable are no better than the Alan Hagers and Jimmy Dempseys of the world. Come to think of it, they wouldn't even do something like that!
Nothing will result in more disagreement than this topic. In a previous life, I was Director of Management Development for a fairly large corporation and had the opportunity to teach other executives on the subject. Some observations about ethics followed by my thoughts.
Ethics are not black and white. Ethics need to be evaluated on a continuum.
Ethics are not visible. Ones ethics are a mental covert activity. Ethics are best measured by assessing "one's personal intent in obtaining an end result", not necessarily the result itself. To determine whether someone truly acted in an ethical fashion one would have to read the person's mind. You may be able to define an activity as inappropriate, but it is impossible to assess personal ethics without their voluntary participation. Results in themselves do not determine ethical behavior. The activity may have been the result of an ill-advised or un-informed decision. That’s not ethics, that’s inexperience.
Ethics are situational. One's intended actions must be measured within the current place and time. Questions like "What led up to this action?” and "what did or didn't he know?" need to be answered. These Environmental factors will effect where ethics fall on the continuum.
Without getting into theories and psychobabble, the easiest way to assess your behavior in terms of ethics is to simply put yourself into the other affected party(s)'s shoes. Then figure out how you would feel after the intended result based on a 1 - 10 scale with 1 being "totally screwed", 5 being "no affect", and 10 being "Totally fair and honest".
My thoughts on this situation: Generally speaking without any situational considerations, to approach the customer in the parking lot and offer to buy any other silver at a higher price falls at about 3 on the ethics scale for many of the reasons discussed.
But I don't believe that is what many are arguing in this thread. My gut feeling in reading the posts is that many of the members feel 3x face is a rip. That being the case, then is it ethical to allow someone with no knowledge get screwed right before your eyes (even if they seem happy about it) while you stand by and do nothing. What if the dealer offered him face and he accepted? Should you still do nothing even though what the dealer is doing is perfectly legal? Doing nothing is often more unethical than taking action. At face value (can we agree this is a rip?) I would argue that intervening falls at about 7 on the ethics continuum. So the continuum would move based upon how much of a rip occurred. If you truly believe 3x was a rip, the ethical action would be to intervene. Again, what is your intent?
Now if you believe that 3x face is fair or near fair from a dealer and your intent in approaching the customer is to get some cheap silver that may have additional value for your own benefit, then that falls at 1.
Fun thread. However, until we start talking in terms of situational ethics and measure them on a continuum we not get anywhere.
First, who has the right to determine someones profit margin? If it's ok to dictate a price to a dealer then why not set profit margin guidlines to everything, like perhaps whatever you sell, or maybe your salary is to high because it raises the profit margin too much..and on and on..
In regards to sniping a customer Quick test. Go to any dealer or well known collector that has been in the business for some time, has pretty solid rep and is respected, (basicaly ask anyone that is considered a peer or a leader in the coin industry/collector field.) if this is exceptable behavior, And let that answer be your guide to the unwritten laws of etiquett in the coin business. Write the editor of your favorite coin rag, I beleive you will find the same answer amongst respectable coin folks, unethical.
I think there are a lot of meritorious arguments and points being given to this "ethical" question. Personally, I don't want to be included among those who feel it's a good or responsible, or even "ethical" business practice to follow people around and/or "bottom-feed" off dealers. That's not a good practice.
However, we were posed a question based on a one-time occurance, and asked if Jim's purpoted behavior was ethical. Let me pose it in another way: What would you do in Jim's shoes? As a collector (I'm assuming Jim is acting as a collector, not a dealer or wholesaler of junk silver coins), Jim is in a shop and hears the deal go down. Should he leave the premises so that he can't be privy to the deal? After all, as a bystander, and client of the dealer, he is able to pick up on some valuable marketing/pricing data. Or maybe Jim should butt in and tell the dealer that his offering price is too low? Or even make the seller a higher offer on the spot? After the deal is consumated, what then? What if Jim is himself looking for some silver coins like those bought by the dealer? Is he obliged to make the dealer an offer on that lot of coins? Why didn't the dealer ask the seller if he had any more coins for sale? Is Jim then prohibited from making any contact with the seller? Why should he be? Why would anyone think it unethical for Jim to try to pursue the seller to see if he has any more silver for sale? After all, the dealer is finished with him, and no longer interested. At this point, how is Jim violating any ethical laws to try to make a deal with the seller?
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
It should NOT matter the dealer's expenses and how MUCH of a profit he makes to determine if the customer is getting screwed with an offer. If a dealer has a shop in Beverly Hills and another in Somelittletown, Idaho and their costs of operation are HUGELY different, and the Beverly Hills shop offers face value for the coins (hey....need to have a lot of profit to stay in business there so people can trade in their old coins, right?) and the one in Idaho (less cost to operate) offers 4x face value......well, let's say they are the EXACT same item.......then, that is ok in your eyes for the Beverly Hills shop to pay so little?
I agree a business needs to try to make a profit. Otherwise, they aren't a business (file IRS tax return as a business with year after year of losses.....I think you will get their unwanted attention).
But, to say that it is ok for a business to rip a customer just so that business can make a larger profit......that is WRONG.
I don't go to stores on a daily basis and say "I think if you make 3% off me for everything I buy, that is enough". I don't dictate the profit a place can make. I also try to learn before I do, so I know what is fair or what is excessive. But, for many people, dealing with metals and coins is not a daily thing. They CAN and WILL be taken advantage of at times. But, since they do it on their own freewill, because they don't know better, that makes it ok? It is ok because the dealer has costs and wants to make as much as they can off people?
No...THAT does NOT make it right. Manomanomanoman. Someone needs to start another thread on normal dealer's ethics then...how much profit is ok? (Capitalism....any profit is fine as it is up to whatever the market bears, right?) When is it ok to take advantage of customers? (Well, dealer didn't make much profit on the last knowledgable customer, so need to make much more of the next uninformed person who comes in).
Reading some of these replies to this thread gives me the willies....makes me think of used car salesmen
I LIKE some of the local dealers I have dealt with at shows. So far, they have liked me (and my cash ). I wouldn't think of screwing them over, but I also don't want to be the customer that puts each of their kids into braces, a BMW, and then college....know what i mean?
I think some of the dealers that have read/responded to this thread may not want some others that have responded as customers.....maybe myself included now, but, I also wonder how many customers have developed a certain "feeling" for some of those same dealers now? I, as a customer, try to be fair, get a great deal, but also understand the other end of my business deal needs to make money to stay around....that is fine with me.....but, all I ask is that dealers understand that many people will find out they got screwed, if they did, and to try to put themselves in the customers shoes and to be fair.
Ron
PS.....anyone want my real name, PM me and I will give it .... if you don't want to do business with me, then let me know.....I won't hide behind an alias. I am honest and say what I feel.
Competition is great for everyone in society (except frauds, cheats, liars, etc). Competition allows the customer (and the customer is always right, right?!) to get the best deal. The customer is the one spending his hard-earned cash.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
1jester.....thank you! A, imho (not to insult anyone else), well thought out post and very succinct (unlike mine ). Just when I was getting ready to not read the thread anymore so I wouldn't get upset you hit most of the nails on the head in a reasonable way, I think.
Hope everyone has a nice day (time to go get a massage...I need one now)
No one condones theivery (ripping off folks) I have paid 2x face on silver when someone brings me 5$f.v. in 90% all stapled in 2x2's .. Am I a rippoff because I paid 2x and am going to make $7.50 and spend 20minutes doing it with a 3-4grand overghead? Sure I will work for pennies, then go out of business so all the locals can deal with the pawn shops, that would be better. Pay 3.2/sell 3.5 Sure maybe if I could do this 20 times a day, but thats not reality. Bring me a bag, Pay $150.00 less than the sell side. Quantity is also an issue on what you get paid.
Another fact, Very seldom do the ripoff artist last long in this business (their are exceptions) here today, gone tommorow. No need to try and hang them, they do it on their own. Also, it pays to shop, dealers that dont remain competitive also dont stay in business long.
Lots of you seem to only think of the dealers side. What about the seller? He doesnt know what a good price is. Is 3 dollar fair. Yup. Is 3.5 fairer? For sure. I care about the dealers in my area but if they didnt buy it all I'm going to pounce on the rest. They never bought it so why shouldnt I. Is there some un-writen rule saying if the dealer doesnt buy it niether can you? So the dealer might miss out on a few bucks. Not my problem, they are in the coin biz they should get used to it. Life isnt fair. He did it outside. Does the dealer own the outside? No one knows if it was a parking lot. It could have been a side walk or a road.
Comments
This is UNETHICAL because you are using the dealers advertising money and overhead which attracts sellers of coins. It's like being a vulture. This is analogous to walking up and down the line of cars in a McDonald's drive-thru to sell cans of coke for $0.75 per can. If you want to buy coins from the public, then place an advertisement in the phone book. Your actions were really chicken-$hit, imo, but I still like you and many of your posts, so keep 'em coming. Hope I helped you understand what you did wrong.........
Likewise, when you sell your coins, you're going to go to the company that gives you the most money, right? I absolutely do not understand this b*tching and complaining over simple competition.
Maybe you shouldn't be a salesman if you can't handle it. Put it in perspective, none of your coins would be worth anything if there wasn't competition and people driving the prices up and willing to offer more. This is what makes you money and now you're complaining about the very thing that does just that...hmmm
You go to Chuck's Jeeps and he says I'll give you a new Wrangler for X amount of money. You say thanks Chuck, I'm shopping around and I'll think about it. You then go to Bob's Jeeps 5 minutes later and down the street and Bob offers you a couple grand off what Chuck had offered and here you are not even negotiating with Bob. He just wants the deal. So you then tell Bob. Hey Bob, you got a deal. Sign me up. No different with coins my friends. It is fair competition. The car salesman from Bob's is not going to go over to Chuck's and steal Chuck's customer, but once the customer is off Chuck's lot, Bob can do whatever the heck he wants. This is called competition.
Let's go even further and say that you saw Chuck's commercial on your local television station last week. It is this commercial that draws you into Chuck's shop, his advertising dollars, but you aren't going to pay more for the Jeep simply because Chuck had to pay for his commercial, you're going to go with Bob because you're a smart consumer.
But there's no need for any analogy, it's common sense and courtesy.
The ONLY reason that NoGvmnt was able to contact the guy with the silver in the first place is because of the expense, time and risk that the DEALER incurred to have that shop open to the public.
And NoGvmnt can't even claim white-knight status, defender of the chiseled public. The dealer offered a FAIR price to the guy for a bunch of circulated silver, and it was happily accepted. To subvert future honest transactions by intercepting that dealer's customer -- whether in the shop or outside it -- is not fair competition, it is unethical.
NoGvmnt, if you don't like your dealer's store hours, that's a separate issue. Maybe you should open your own store, whereupon you can buy silver at 3x face at whichever times you choose. Assuming one of your customers doesn't snipe you, of course.
You're right. My analogy is probably out of context. I'll concede my argument.
My guess is that if you or I had a shop, we could probably only pay 2.5X face for silver, due to the overhead of owning a store.......
Too funny! Good one, Supercoin! I imagine some would think that is ethical too!
Dave
Peak Numismatics
Monument, CO
One of the first lessons we learned was that you can not mask your behavior by excusing it with phrases like "it was ok because he was a crook or scumbag". One's behavior is not excusable because of his. Ethics don't change because someone else is unethical.
Secondly, it is not ethical to benefit financially from some one else's effort and expense and you did this because of the reasons already mentioned. This dealer expended money to pay rent, pay taxes, to advertise etc., that you did not spend. The customer was there at his shop either because of an ad, a sign etc. i.e. some sort of expenditure on his part.
Thirdly, having 20 or 30 or 100 people telling you that something is ethical doesn't make it so. In the final analysis you only made this deal because of someone else's expenditure not your own. Being in the right place at the right time is not an issue of ethics. It's how you got to the right place at the right time that is at issue as did the customer.
<< <i>Using the dealer's advertising money? lol..if you're at a coin show and see Grandpa selling his coin. Dealer A offers him $400 and you offer him $450. In my opinion you're doing that person a favor by giving them $50 more than he was originally offered. How is that unethical? >>
If you did this on a regular basis at shows and did NOT pay for a table,you will soon have plenty of time to figure out whether or not it`s ethical,when you`re out in the parking lot...of course I guess you can start sniping out there...until the police show up!
became a customer of the dealer. By making another deal outside of the coin store
you not only made the dealer look bad, but also deprived the dealer of possible future
transactions with the customer. This issue is a judgement call, and taking all things into
consideration, it was probably a bad call. All of us make bad calls in the course of our daily lives,
we hopefully learn from them, and achieve a higher level of integrity and honor by that learning
experience. Go forth my friend and sin no more. The lure of silver can not always compensate
for a heavy heart. By the way, the dealers offer of 3X face was a fair offer. Had the client
negotiated a bit, he might have gotten more, but it was a fair offer. Most coin dealers work
hard to make a living. Such small deals require some measure of profit for the dealer to cover
overhead and living expenses for what is usually a long work week.
Camelot
Irish Mike, the seller brought in 1 bag of silver quarters to sell and the dealer got that bag at his price, what now, the seller is REQUIRED to sell the rest of his coins that he didn't bring to the dealer because he made 1 transaction with the dealer? Please, when you sell your collection in piecemeal fashion, you are required to sell everything to the same person at whatever price the dealer quotes even though you know that you can get a better price elsewhere. How utterly rediculous. So, if I put an ad in the yellow pages everyone in MY neighborhood MUST sell their coins to me regardless of whether or not I offer the best price? HA!!!
Jim
You can accept or not accept those opinions. You have no need to be defensive
as the opinions are mixed. In the final analysis, each of us must do or not do, what we feel is right
and proper. The question was on a very fine point, and ultimate guidence will have to come from
a higher source then the inmates of this asylum.
Camelot
zenny, where did I ever state that the dealer Pissed me off? I never said that! Chyt happens, so he wasn't there, big deal. My point in posting the fact that he wasn't at the shop on saturday, even when his hours listed on the door indicated that the shop was normally open on Saturday, was in response to whoever it was that made the statement that the dealer could possibly close and he worked so hard. The fact is if the dealer was in such financial straights as some here would have people believe, he would not have taken Saturday off. Geeeezzz, you people twist this around so much just to justify your position.
Jim
illusion. How about deception by deceitful articulation.
Camelot
Lastly if you don't want honest discourse on this forum then don't solicit it. You twisted what I said or failed to comprehend it. Once again let me repeat myself I NEVER said that the seller was obligated to sell his coins to any one individual. Please resist from posting what you think I said rather then what I said. Thank you.
But, your gain may have caused that dealer to lose business and you reached that customer by virtue of being in his shop. Does it matter that it was in the parking lot? Well, you can also go through the dumpster behind the dealer's shop and try to get the names and addresses of his other customers.....is that so terribly different?
You asked for an opinion...otherwise I wouldn't express an opinion. I think most (or many) of us on this forum have been in your shoes in a coin shop and had to face the same temptation. I think you had momentary lapse of bad judgement.
But....that's only my opinion. What you think of what you did is much more important.
Bear, listen weasel, the dealer doesn't own the seller, he is free to sell to whomever he pleases.
The conversation between the seller and myself was off the dealers property, the dealers transaction was over and I advised the seller if he had any more silver coins to sell that I was willing to pay more for them.
This garbage about me lurking around the dealers store is just that, garbage. I was in the right place at the right time and you know what they say, when oppertunity knocks....
Answer me this, if I placed an advertisement on the free bulletin board offering 3.5x face for silver coins at the supermarket where there is a coinstar machine, would THAT be unethical?
Jim
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
He pays for it as well as the building. Parking lots are not public property.
It's just not right. You took advantage of the dealers business.
But, some of the "analogies" that are being used...and things being said, I have to comment on....
First, dealers do NOT OWN customers. As a customer, please do NOT claim me...ok?!?!! I can go to ANY dealer I want and I don't want a dealer saying I am theirs. FREE country. To put it in a little "red light", I used to go to strip clubs (the horrors
I appreciated that coming from very attractive women, but, I still let it be known that I was a free person.
I haven't seen a coin dealer yet that could match up physically to those dancers, so I am darn well not going to be "owned" by one of them!
Second, there is a lot of talk of the "ethics" of benefitting from someone else's business' efforts and advertising. I will agree that it may not be ethical, but, please leave it to the coin shop analogy....don't take it to other businesses. If you do, then, you may be right about the ethics, but it shows you don't pay much attention to common business practices.
I took courses in college (I have a simple degree in business...no masters so I am not trying to pull a "holier than thou...just relating where this came from) that pertained to business and ethics. It was also pointed out that rarely do you see a gas station without another one across the street. Or, a fast food without another one across the street/corner. By the reasoning that some have used in this thread, if McDonald's had a store and advertised with a billboard, and Wendy's was across the street and didn't advertise, then they shouldn't get any of the people that saw the McDonald's advertising.
Businesses use other businesses' funds/advertising on a daily basis. That is real world.
Now, the side argument that others will use in this scenario is that it is ok because Wendy's has to pay for the store and land too, so there is investment. While that is true, don't forget they didn't advertise and some/many of their customers are ONLY there because they saw the McDonald's signs.
So, PLEASE just leave the analogy to the coin store because when you take it out of context, there is so much else that can come into play and really corrupt the nature of it or what really is happening.
Third, I can understand how some of your dealers feel....I really can. You get defensive when thinking of people being a predator to your life. I can appreciate that. I hope you are all as good to your customers as you seem to be on the forum (I am sure you are
Ever been to a bestbuy, circuit city, etc and seen something and either tell someone else, or have them tell you, if the thing you are looking at is cheaper somewhere else? According to ethics as stated here (to take the analogy away from the coin store) you shouldn't do that. So, no one should tell you how to save/make more money if you are in some business area or have boughten there before! (that's why I ask to not leave the coin store analogy).
Fourth, I repeat #1 above....DO NOT LAY CLAIM TO ME as a customer. He is not MY dealer...he can be a dealer to anyone. I won't stop him. The moment I find out a dealer tells another dealer I am HIS, is the moment I stop buying/selling from him. I have started going to coin shows....if I take my bag of silver quarters to dealer #1, and the area he has paid for, and get a quote from him, does that mean when I am across the bourse and just standing there, another dealer can't say something like "hey....I see you running that silver through your hands....it's kind of slow right now and I have time....want me to take a look and make you an offer if you are willing to sell?"?
Then what? I sell and the first dealer gets mad because I was "his"? NO. Plain and simple, NO.
So, it wouldn't be ethical to poach in someone else's business (and I didn't....see my other thread if you are interested....or not). But, it is a business practice to solicit customers at the cheapest method available. While another dealer can't do it in a dealer's storefront, once they leave premises, they are fair game (I am not saying I agree/disagree with this....just saying what can be done).
And, in case people want to question me/my ethics, I think my personal ethics are very high and I have had no problems with people I have boughten coins/items from. I just can see beyond my own ethics to get an understanding of how things work, and how others are....not everyone acts as good/bad as I do and so it is better for me to understand them. If I condemn others because they don't act like I do, or how I want....well, I think that is wrong. That is IMHO..
Thanks...sorry for the somewhat rant...but, I just can't stand to see a possessive nature on a customer. In the business world I was in before it was called "scooping" and "eating someone else's lunch".
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
Ethical?
I dunno.......
do any hot babes work there?
Good post, but you've confused me (which is easy to do).
Your comment of
"While another dealer can't do it in a dealer's storefront, once they leave premises, they are fair game (I am not saying I agree/disagree with this....just saying what can be done)."
seems irrelevant to the question posed.
The question is "Is it ethical", not whether or not it "Can be done.".
Dave
Having been a dealer in sports cards and related items, what all must understand is this. EVERY DAY someone comes in to your shop to sell something....EVERY DAY. Overhead is expensive and bills must get paid. My first question was always "how much do you want?" I once bought a 1951 Bowman Mickey Mantle rookie for $1000. That card was worth $9000 at the time. 86/87 Fleer Basketball sets (the holy grail of basketball card sets) I bought 9 sets for $300 (and sold the Jordan rookies for $500 each). As a dealer you have 2 choices, ask how much they want and make a offer. It is up to the individual to make the decision whether to take the money or decline the offer. They walked in the door, the dealer did not drag them in.
As for the ethics concerning the original question...no problem.....outside is free space, a smart dealer would ask if there was anymore. If the person said yes and then you confronted him outside that would be wrong.
but that is just my opinion
iF YOU DONT WANT SOMEONES OPINION, THEN DONT ASK FOR IT. Most if not all of
the responses were not hostil to you, only opinions on a specific set of circumstances.
Your own defensive responses are the cause for responses in kind. The term grasshopper
is not intended as an insult, it refers to someone not fully understanding of the results of
their actions. No one here said you are mean or evil or even necessarily wrong. We just gave
our honest opinions and many of them differed. If you are guilty of anything, its of having a
rather thin skin. On this Forum one must be able to accept opinions that do not agree
without being disagreeable.
Camelot
sorry if I misinterpreted your comment about the seller not being there when he was supposed to, but the fact that you added in just how long it took you to get there led me to believe you were at least a little annoyed at going out of your way, (in addition to your obvious intent of showing how well off this guy is that he can take a whole day off on a saturday).
I still think supercoin has the best possible way to deal with the situation, although you refuse to acknowledge his suggestion.
z
You are right that the quote of mine you used was not pertinent to the initial post....but, i said it because I believe(d) it is/was pertinent to things that others have said during the thread....I have read each and every post for the thread as I found it interesting.
I put it there kind of to see if any of the dealers that have posted how rotten the OP was to do what he did had approached customers that have worked with other dealers.
Coinshows seem to be an easy place for that to happen...each dealer pays for a spot but once someone (customer) goes to a dealer, is he considered "no longer available" by other dealers? I don't think so. It was just to point out that people are treating things black/white with very little info supplied and there is always so much more to things.
Ron
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
No dealer can "own" a customer; that's silly, and un-American. It's supposed to be a free market, right? Or are we in a command economy, like the USSR, where all deals were to be planned by the central committee?? In what way was the customer obliged to always and exclusively do business with that dealer?! I agree it wouldn't be right to interrupt the ongoing deal, and Jim could have offered the dealer 3.5X for the coins just bought by the dealer. However, that has nothing at all to do with the situation at hand, which involves other coins. And the dealer was not interested in any further business with the seller, or he would have asked the seller if he had any more, as Jim did later, in a public space.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Ethics are for lawyers and politicians! (with the exception of Bill Clinton, of course!)
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
What if the store (let's say a clothes store) adjacent to the coin shop was owned by a man who dabbled in coins. Say he put a large advertising billboard on the walk in front of his store that read "sell your coins to me - I'll pay you 10% more than the coin shop". Ethical?
Say I'm walking downtown for lunch and heading to Burger King. I'm two doors away and someone advertising for Mr. Sub hands me a sale flyer and draws me into their shop instead. Ethical?
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Bear, a grasshopper is an insignificant little bug, please do not attempt to blow smoke up my arse by claiming that your referring to me as “grasshopper” was anything other than a condescending attempt to either brown-nose fellow coin dealers and/or belittle me.
Yes, I posted a thread where opinions were solicited, but, people are capable of expressing their opinions and including their thoughts in support of those opinions without resorting to personal attacks. As a matter of fact it is those opinions that do not resort to personal attacks which are more credible. If you need to resort to personal attacks in order to justify your opinion, don’t expect me to just lay down and take it. I do respect and appreciate everyone’s opinion, along with their right to express their opinion, but, when anyone resorts to including personal attacks in their opinion they confer upon me the right respond in kind.
Thought provoking issues are what I like to post. It’s not my style to just continuously post threads of submission results day after day that contain the same blue, or yellow, or red, or pink toned proof Jefferson nickels so that the same members can post the same, gratuitous “nice coin” responses day, after day, after day. I mean no offense to Jefferson collectors, but, come on, a blue nickel is a blue nickel is a blue nickel already.
Jim
ask anyone for an opinion on this Forum. You are
sorely in need of an increase in maturity and class.
Camelot
<< <i>After the guy came outside I asked him if he had any more silver coins and offered him 3.5x face, he said he had a lot more at home and I gave him my phone number.
Was this "ethical"?
Jim >>
As I stated before, as a one time enterprise the ethics of this behavior is marginal at best, anything more than a one shot deal, i.e. attempting to turn it into some sort of cottage coin poaching industry is clearly improper. If you want to run a business, do it the big boy way.
Why is there such resistance to supercoin's concept that everybody can be happy? Customer gets his premium, dealer gets his premium, end buyer gets the product for the exact same price - it's not rocket science, simply living on a higher plane....
Waiting or following a customer out of anyones store to do business does not make a person unethical, it makes them a scumbag. I cannot beleive people that call themselves honest collectors and ambassadors to the Hobbie would condone this behavior, hell, even the scummiest dealers know better than to do that to a business. The original poster simply unaware and had a gut feeling it was wrong,henceforth his question, but some of you guys should know better.
Even at coin show which is public forum,Tell me this, would it be ethical to follow you around a show, listen to what your trying to do and make counteroffers on everything you are trying to buy?
For those that think it's ok, Post your real name if you dare, Im sure some of would like to know who you are before you walk in their place to steal business.
If you think a guy is too cheap on his buy prices etc..Then do the ethical thing, open a store across the street and buy bags of silver for $3400 and try and make a hundred to keep your doors open.
Regards to those that get it.
This thread inspired me to start a new business, and yesterday was my first day on the job. I live in a neighborhood that is visited by "the icecream man" everyday between Noon and 3 pm. He drives a somewhat dilapitated old truck that has a crackling speaker that plays kid music. I decided that it would be a great idea to buy some ice cream from the grocery store and then follow him around the neighborhood in my 1998 Jeep. As kids ran out to buy ice cream from the ice cream man, I would get out of my car with a cooler full of ice cream that is half the price of the ice cream man's treats.
I sold about $50 worth of ice cream and made about $25 profit on the deal. Unfortunately, the $25 profit does not cover the deductible on my medical insurance, especially the $100 deductible on the ambulance ride that I took yesterday. You see, the ice cream man did not like me being a blood-sucking, chicken-$hit leech on his business by following him around and stealing his captive, loyal clientele that he drew in with the music on his truck.
He took the law into his own hands and now I am retired from the ice cream truck business. The irony is that I just had a cup of ice cream for lunch, even though I had to "eat" it through a straw..........
Camelot
There are a few key points to remember here,
1. When that customer comes back to the shop (and he will) he will tell the dealer about your offer, and if the dealer remembers who was there that day you will be on his $hit list. The dealer will see to it that the other shops know how you do business and they will be UNFREINDLY when it comes to business WITH YOU.
2. When you come around you will find that the prices seem to have gone up a bit.
3. Remember the shops you used to go to, Remember them well, because they dont want you around any more.
4. Here is an important point for the sellers, if you are at a coin store and you are aproched by somebody about your personal business DONT SET YOUR SELF UP TO GET RIPPED OFF. Dont Give any information.
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
<< <i>Waiting or following a customer out of anyones store to do business does not make a person unethical, it makes them a scumbag. >>
Succinct and to the point. The clowns that believe that behavior is acceptable are no better than the Alan Hagers and Jimmy Dempseys of the world. Come to think of it, they wouldn't even do something like that!
Nothing will result in more disagreement than this topic. In a previous life, I was Director of Management Development for a fairly large corporation and had the opportunity to teach other executives on the subject. Some observations about ethics followed by my thoughts.
Ethics are not black and white. Ethics need to be evaluated on a continuum.
Ethics are not visible. Ones ethics are a mental covert activity. Ethics are best measured by assessing "one's personal intent in obtaining an end result", not necessarily the result itself. To determine whether someone truly acted in an ethical fashion one would have to read the person's mind. You may be able to define an activity as inappropriate, but it is impossible to assess personal ethics without their voluntary participation. Results in themselves do not determine ethical behavior. The activity may have been the result of an ill-advised or un-informed decision. That’s not ethics, that’s inexperience.
Ethics are situational. One's intended actions must be measured within the current place and time. Questions like "What led up to this action?” and "what did or didn't he know?" need to be answered. These Environmental factors will effect where ethics fall on the continuum.
Without getting into theories and psychobabble, the easiest way to assess your behavior in terms of ethics is to simply put yourself into the other affected party(s)'s shoes. Then figure out how you would feel after the intended result based on a 1 - 10 scale with 1 being "totally screwed", 5 being "no affect", and 10 being "Totally fair and honest".
My thoughts on this situation:
Generally speaking without any situational considerations, to approach the customer in the parking lot and offer to buy any other silver at a higher price falls at about 3 on the ethics scale for many of the reasons discussed.
But I don't believe that is what many are arguing in this thread. My gut feeling in reading the posts is that many of the members feel 3x face is a rip. That being the case, then is it ethical to allow someone with no knowledge get screwed right before your eyes (even if they seem happy about it) while you stand by and do nothing. What if the dealer offered him face and he accepted? Should you still do nothing even though what the dealer is doing is perfectly legal? Doing nothing is often more unethical than taking action. At face value (can we agree this is a rip?) I would argue that intervening falls at about 7 on the ethics continuum. So the continuum would move based upon how much of a rip occurred. If you truly believe 3x was a rip, the ethical action would be to intervene. Again, what is your intent?
Now if you believe that 3x face is fair or near fair from a dealer and your intent in approaching the customer is to get some cheap silver that may have additional value for your own benefit, then that falls at 1.
Fun thread. However, until we start talking in terms of situational ethics and measure them on a continuum we not get anywhere.
In regards to sniping a customer
Quick test. Go to any dealer or well known collector that has been in the business for some time, has pretty solid rep and is respected, (basicaly ask anyone that is considered a peer or a leader in the coin industry/collector field.) if this is exceptable behavior, And let that answer be your guide to the unwritten laws of etiquett in the coin business. Write the editor of your favorite coin rag, I beleive you will find the same answer amongst respectable coin folks, unethical.
I hope someone learns something from this thread.
Regards to all
However, we were posed a question based on a one-time occurance, and asked if Jim's purpoted behavior was ethical. Let me pose it in another way: What would you do in Jim's shoes? As a collector (I'm assuming Jim is acting as a collector, not a dealer or wholesaler of junk silver coins), Jim is in a shop and hears the deal go down. Should he leave the premises so that he can't be privy to the deal? After all, as a bystander, and client of the dealer, he is able to pick up on some valuable marketing/pricing data. Or maybe Jim should butt in and tell the dealer that his offering price is too low? Or even make the seller a higher offer on the spot? After the deal is consumated, what then? What if Jim is himself looking for some silver coins like those bought by the dealer? Is he obliged to make the dealer an offer on that lot of coins? Why didn't the dealer ask the seller if he had any more coins for sale? Is Jim then prohibited from making any contact with the seller? Why should he be? Why would anyone think it unethical for Jim to try to pursue the seller to see if he has any more silver for sale? After all, the dealer is finished with him, and no longer interested. At this point, how is Jim violating any ethical laws to try to make a deal with the seller?
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
It should NOT matter the dealer's expenses and how MUCH of a profit he makes to determine if the customer is getting screwed with an offer.
If a dealer has a shop in Beverly Hills and another in Somelittletown, Idaho and their costs of operation are HUGELY different, and the Beverly Hills shop offers face value for the coins (hey....need to have a lot of profit to stay in business there so people can trade in their old coins, right?) and the one in Idaho (less cost to operate) offers 4x face value......well, let's say they are the EXACT same item.......then, that is ok in your eyes for the Beverly Hills shop to pay so little?
I agree a business needs to try to make a profit. Otherwise, they aren't a business (file IRS tax return as a business with year after year of losses.....I think you will get their unwanted attention).
But, to say that it is ok for a business to rip a customer just so that business can make a larger profit......that is WRONG.
I don't go to stores on a daily basis and say "I think if you make 3% off me for everything I buy, that is enough". I don't dictate the profit a place can make.
I also try to learn before I do, so I know what is fair or what is excessive. But, for many people, dealing with metals and coins is not a daily thing. They CAN and WILL be taken advantage of at times.
But, since they do it on their own freewill, because they don't know better, that makes it ok? It is ok because the dealer has costs and wants to make as much as they can off people?
No...THAT does NOT make it right. Manomanomanoman. Someone needs to start another thread on normal dealer's ethics then...how much profit is ok? (Capitalism....any profit is fine as it is up to whatever the market bears, right?) When is it ok to take advantage of customers? (Well, dealer didn't make much profit on the last knowledgable customer, so need to make much more of the next uninformed person who comes in).
Reading some of these replies to this thread gives me the willies....makes me think of used car salesmen
I LIKE some of the local dealers I have dealt with at shows. So far, they have liked me (and my cash
I think some of the dealers that have read/responded to this thread may not want some others that have responded as customers.....maybe myself included now, but, I also wonder how many customers have developed a certain "feeling" for some of those same dealers now?
I, as a customer, try to be fair, get a great deal, but also understand the other end of my business deal needs to make money to stay around....that is fine with me.....but, all I ask is that dealers understand that many people will find out they got screwed, if they did, and to try to put themselves in the customers shoes and to be fair.
Ron
PS.....anyone want my real name, PM me and I will give it .... if you don't want to do business with me, then let me know.....I won't hide behind an alias. I am honest and say what I feel.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
A, imho (not to insult anyone else), well thought out post and very succinct (unlike mine
Just when I was getting ready to not read the thread anymore so I wouldn't get upset
Hope everyone has a nice day (time to go get a massage...I need one now)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I have paid 2x face on silver when someone brings me 5$f.v. in 90% all stapled in 2x2's
.. Am I a rippoff because I paid 2x and am going to make $7.50 and spend 20minutes doing it with a 3-4grand overghead? Sure I will work for pennies, then go out of business so all the locals can deal with the pawn shops, that would be better. Pay 3.2/sell 3.5 Sure maybe if I could do this 20 times a day, but thats not reality. Bring me a bag, Pay $150.00 less than the sell side. Quantity is also an issue on what you get paid.
Another fact, Very seldom do the ripoff artist last long in this business (their are exceptions) here today, gone tommorow. No need to try and hang them, they do it on their own. Also, it pays to shop, dealers that dont remain competitive also dont stay in business long.
Regards
Ps. Even in competition, ethics and rules apply.
IrishMike... I agree with you...
Lincolnman1 ... Wow ! open a can of worms
Bushmaster8.... thats a little Nasty dont you think?
NewmisEd ... Good Point
Keep in mind I'm not saying I would do this!!!