Barbers look like he/she's ? Ugggg. I always thought she looked like the woman in that farm picture standind next to her husband holding the pitchfork.
Great, now I'm always going to wonder if every pretty girl I see has..... Oh, never mind.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
I agree, I just paid well over $1,000 for a coin for my Liberty Nickel set, while at the same time I will be placing one in my Jefferson Nickel set for $10 (+ $0.05 for the coin). I love moderns. The only cost is the grading fee, if you collect them raw (as I do for all the other sets), they are all but free (face value is almost irrelevant).
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Dbldie, I agree with the spirit of your post, but trust you'll acknowledge the impossibility of completing most modern sets near face. The series that always throws a wrinkle in everyone's compartmentalized thinking is the Lincoln cent. That series, although modern is contemporary with the Lib nickel you collect. There are 329 coins required to complete the series in MS/PR with varieties, as opposed to the 64 needed for the Lib nickel set. They are certainly popular, and some are quite valuable raw. I'd say building a nice set for face in any grade would indeed be an accomplishment.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
"There will be some really cool post-1950 MS rarities..."
There's a qualifying term or word missing from that sentence.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Now as far as paying 10X ~ 100X one point grade rarity premiums for these coins is concerned....anyone who does that is NUTS!
"There will be some really cool post-1950 MS rarities..." There's a qualifying term or word missing from that sentence
........and i for one am curious what that qualifying word or term might be. i have an idea what it is, but go ahead and remove the veil of mystery so i can tell you why i pasted the upper term in first. man, i love these threads where the same people make the same blanket statements about the same segment of the hobby when they all actually pertain to the hobby as a whole.
For me, the problem I have with more modern circulation strikes has nothing to do with the designs, I think some of the statehood quarters are very nice looking.
My main reason for not liking the high grade moderns is 2 fold. !. The premium paid for higher grade modern coins can be huge, yet the grading is subjective and the coin may not grade as high if the coin was cracked out and tried again or if the service doing the grading ever goes out of buisness. This complaint is not just about moderns though. I will never buy a classic coin graded higher then 67.
The second reason is I am a little uncomfortable with the term "condition rarity" for coins that aren't even scarce. When I have said this in the past people have taken it the wrong way. My meaning is that I prefer coins for collecting purposes to have at least an eliment [spelling ?] of scarcity to them to be desirable as a coin to collect, in that regaurd, I don't like all older classic coins either. Anyone that read Dragons post on his 65 upgraded to 67 CC dollar should understand what I mean about being skeptical of paying huge multiples of 1 point higher then another what ever the series classic or modern.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
"Anyone that read Dragons post on his 65 upgraded to 67 CC dollar should understand what I mean about being skeptical of paying huge multiples of 1 point higher then another what ever the series classic or modern."
Exactly - there was a "classic" example of a collector leaving 10x on the table on a classic coin. Interestingly, rarely is there a thread in a GIVEN MONTH on this board concerning the "STUPIDITY" of buying high grade classic coins. I suppose the author of this thread is simply tired of the one sided threads concerning moderns.
To be clear, I enjoy buying super high grade classic and modern coins, but (with respect to moderns), primarily enjoy SELECT high grade MINT STATE moderns beginning in the mid-1970's to date and I am less driven to buy the modern proofs of that era (with limited exceptions)
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
"i love these threads where the same people make the same blanket statements about the same segment of the hobby when they all actually pertain to the hobby as a whole."
Save a little of that love for when I make the same statement (as I have numerous times in the past) regarding paying those types of premiums for classic coins .
Wondercoin
"Exactly - there was a "classic" example of a collector leaving 10x on the table on a classic coin."
I'll have to try and find the tread in question and read it to understand the relevance to the discussion of paying 10x one point grade rarity premiums. But if it's related to someone getting a one point upgrade and selling the coin for a 10x+ premium over what they paid for it wouldn't change what I believe is a basic lack of wisdom (IMHO ) involved when paying those types of premiums and it reflects (again IMHO) an undue emphasis on the minute differences between the loft MS grades that are typically involved in these situations.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I guess the question boils down to should a large percentage of the value of a coin be tied up in those things that make for a one point difference in grade, especially when we're talking the high end mint state grades. Ultimately this is a matter of personal opinion and personal sense of value. In MY opinion the answer to that question is no and the answer is no whether we're talking modern or classic coins. No bash intented.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Some collectors who have a deep appreciation for a coin series, whatever that series may be, become transfixed on obtaining that very, very special coin - the near perfect example that is seldom encountered. An example of this might be the PCGS-PR69 Shield nickel (monster toned) I bought for a dedicated Shield nickel collector last year (thanks Bruce S). Of course, the coin will trade at a multiple of a typical PR68 price - but, so does a Picasso sell at a multiple of myriad other artists who paint quite nicely.
A true, high quality MS68 Barber coin or SLQ, or a sensational PR67DCAM Liberty nickel, etc. is so special in that top grade that the issue of "multiple" to the undergrade often flys out the window to that specialized collector. The same is true for a modern coin like a gem 1969(d) or (s) nickel in true "FS" vs. a near miss 4 3/4 step coin, etc.
I agree that to many, a gem 4 3/4 step 1969(s) nickel is great. But, to a certain small % of coin collectors out there, the 4 3/4 step is OK, but, a true 5+ stepper is what it is all about. To this scintella of the collecting public, the issue of 4 3/4 steps for $250 or 5 steps at $10,000 is the same issue as "you are either pregnant or not pregnant" - there is no substitute for the 5 stepper - period, end. Likewise, there is no substitute for a true MS68RD Indian cent at $70,000 vs. an MS67RD at say $10,000. Or, a 1926(s) Lincoln cent in MS64RD at $5000or MS65RD at $100,000+. Or, even a true MS68 silver Wash quarter at $10,000+ vs. an MS67 at $300.
Of course, no one expects the "other 99%" of the collecting public to agree with these types of purchases. Do the 99% of households in the world hang a Picasso in their living room? All that is asked is the simple courtesy of not harshly attacking the collecting habits of others, whether we are talking about moderns or classics. There is simply no need to bash moderns or classics.
And, as for the comment about a one point jump not being worth 10x+ - I simply totally disagree. These are the very special coins I am personally after, (often times) along with the room full of collectors and dealers fighting for these crown jewels. With respect to my personal collections, these are basically the key coins I am interested in (of course, if graded properly). I could care less that to many people these coins are "not worth it". But, I would also never tell other collectors they are wrong for collecting circulated examples or Ch BU or whatever other lower grades someone else may chose to pursue. Have you noticed that the collectors and dealers who pursue the prize finest known coins rarely (adversely) comment about the masses collecting lower grade coins, but, the comments seem to always be leveled at the collectors seeking the top grade specimens, especially the modern top graded coins. Why must that be?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
My main reason for not liking the high grade moderns is 2 fold. !. The premium paid for higher grade modern coins can be huge, yet the grading is subjective and the coin may not grade as high if the coin was cracked out and tried again or if the service doing the grading ever goes out of buisness. This complaint is not just about moderns though. I will never buy a classic coin graded higher then 67. >>
Yes. Grading is subjective and life is ephemeral. There's no way of knowing how coins will be graded tomorrow or who will be grading them. Strike may become the determining factor in grading, or possibly collectors in the future will want only PL regardless of eye appeal or marking. We may have computer grading and real stan- dards. All coins may have been submitted so many times that even pocket change usually grades MS-70.
But one thing is a virtual certainty; collectors will still seek quality. Whatever collectors deem high quality in the future is more likely to be in a MS-70 slab than an MS-60 or an MS-69 slab. In any case though people are demanding high grade coins because they are the grade they seek. Some people look for high grade coins raw. What do they care what collectors in twenty years grade them if they don't care what they grade now? One is supposed to be collecting coins rather than slabs anyway.
Not that there's something wrong with MS-64 or MS-65 coins. These are very attractive coins and if one collects Barbers or the like the higher grades are extremely pricey. We all have to pick and choose what we want from the hobby, and we all have limitations of finances, time, and effort that we can commit to it. We choose what we collect and then we go for it. People who choose the highest grade aren't so very much more numerous, but the coins they seek are that much less numerous. It is not surprising that the spreads in the higher grades get pretty wide.
<< <i> The second reason is I am a little uncomfortable with the term "condition rarity" for coins that aren't even scarce. When I have said this in the past people have taken it the wrong way. My meaning is that I prefer coins for collecting purposes to have at least an eliment [spelling ?] of scarcity to them to be desirable as a coin to collect, in that regaurd, I don't like all older classic coins either. Anyone that read Dragons post on his 65 upgraded to 67 CC dollar should understand what I mean about being skeptical of paying huge multiples of 1 point higher then another what ever the series classic or modern. >>
I guess I still don't understand this point. Some classics are common and some are rare. Some moderns are common and some are rare. It's true that many more moderns are common on a percentage basis and it's also true that modern common coins can be far more common than classic common coins. So? Just as classic date/mm collectors collect them all so do the modern date/mm collectors. Why would someone include an MS-67 '82NMM dime in a collection with XF/ AU clad dimes? Won't the collection look more attractive if all are MS-67? Just because there are many millions of 1975 dimes that are in circulation it does not mean the coin is common in unc. Just because unc '75 dimes are not rare doesn't mean that MS-67 '75 dimes are not rare. People should collect what they enjoy. Entertainment and investment considerations will be maximized this way. It is not wise to buy the highest grade if you can't tell independently that it truly is the highest grade. It is not wise to buy moderns or Barbers for investment, because if you do you will make mistakes. If you don't enjoy the coins you will not learn the subtleties which differentiate the rare from the common. You will take the advise of others who will sometimes hold there own interests in exclu- sion of your own. You will also make many of your own mistakes, but the biggest mistake will be getting into the greatest hobby in the world and not having any fun.
Let me start by saying there is no right and wrong here and I'm serious when I say there is no intent to bash. We're just having a discussion.
"become transfixed on obtaining that very, very special coin"..."a Picasso sell at a multiple of myriad other artists who paint quite nicely"..."5+ stepper is what it is all about"..."very special coins"..."crown jewels"
All of these statements place a huge emphasis on the 1% of a coins appearance separates in from the coins 1 point (or in some cases a fraction of a point) below it and allows that 1% difference to account for 99% of the coins value. I really do understand the mentality behind this but it reflects IMHO and based on my sense of value too much emphasis on that 1%.
You are the consummate sales person and like to use terms such as "very special coins"..."crown jewels"..."a Picasso"..."sensational", etc. The use of those terms is a reflection of putting a major focus on the 1% versus the 99% is meant to adjust the focus of collectors to those differences and generate sales and profits (and there is nothing sinister about that). It also may happen to reflect your personal opinion. All fine and dandy.
On the other hand the question about a Picasso hanging in someones living room (do the 99% of households in the world hang a Picasso in their living room?) is a false analogy because the things that account for the 1% difference in that MS-68 State Quarter that differentiates it from the other 500 million that were produced are not a product of some special talent, ability or incite. Whether or not you assign a significant value to those 1% differences (speak of coins) doesn't necessarily mean you don't recognize the differences in the same way that someone not familiar with art might not recognize a Picasso from a fake. Recognizing the differences is one thing, assigning 99% of the coins value to those differences is another.
"All that is asked is the simple courtesy of not harshly attacking the collecting habits of others"
I 100% agree but I hope you don't feel that just having the discussion about the differences among collector in how that assign value to a coin is in itself bashing. We can agree to disagree and do it respectfully.
"Have you noticed that the collectors and dealers who pursue the prize finest known coins rarely (adversely) comment about the masses collecting lower grade coins, but, the comments seem to always be leveled at the collectors seeking the top grade specimens, especially the modern top graded coins. Why must that be?"
Hey, the dealers don't want to alienate their customer base and the guys paying big bucks for those pop 1 coins tend to drive the prices up on the other coins for the little guy .
Then again ususually the questions regarding valuations are an attempt to understand why there can be such a huge difference in pricing between coins that are similiar in 99% of their characteristics. The $100 coins don't attract the same attention as the $50,000 or $500,000 coins.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
The people that really pique me off are the dealers of modern coins who jump down my throat because I say that a coins with very high mintages and survival rates MIGHT be overpraced at numbers of $1,000 or more.
In today's market a Chain Cent in Good-4 @ $10,000 is overpriced. The same thing can be said for modern coins when the premium for a one grading point difference is huge.
NOTHING is "priceless," and ANYTHING can be overpriced.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
"On the other hand the question about a Picasso hanging in someones living room (do the 99% of households in the world hang a Picasso in their living room?) is a false analogy because the things that account for the 1% difference in that MS-68 State Quarter that differentiates it from the other 500 million that were produced are not a product of some special talent, ability or incite. Whether or not you assign a significant value to those 1% differences (speak of coins) doesn't necessarily mean you don't recognize the differences in the same way that someone not familiar with art might not recognize a Picasso from a fake. Recognizing the differences is one thing, assigning 99% of the coins value to those differences is another."
pmh1nic - I never mentioned an MS68 state quarter. If we are having fun here debating my points, let's stick to the text Let's use my very example of the 4 3/4 stepper at $250 vs. 5 stepper at $10,000. Do you still disagree with my premises as they relate to the 1969(d)(s) 5 steppers at (HYPOTHETICALLY) $10,000?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
We've had this discussion on numerous occassions over the years. Whether we're talking about an MS-67 versus MS-68 State Quarter (which we have discussed in the same type of context) or a 4 3/4 step versus a 5 step Jefferson it still comes down to the very minute factors (IMHO) that differentiate the two. In either case your Picasso comment doesn't fly. One has to do with incidental happenstance (first coin struck after an adjustment to the coin press or that one coin that ends up with a couple less dings in processing and transportation) versus a lifetime of practice, acquiring knowledge that is coupled with tremendous natural talent and ability.
Your stretch in comparing the differences in these coins (67 vs 68 State Quarters or 4 3/4 vs 5 step Jeffersons) to the difference between a Picasso and the best I can do via paint-by-numbers is a major stretch but it's one that goes along with the other superlatives you use when describing these "spectacular" coins.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
pmh1nic: I understand your position. I totally disagree with it, but, I understand it (as you understand mine).
Sticking to the 4 3/4 step vs. 5 step example (and a similar discussion can be had for "95% FB" Mercs, or 95% FBL Frankins, or 95% FH SLQ's), or a coin such as a spectacular (not crappy plastic) MS68 Indian Cent, early Lincoln cent or silver Wash quarter, I am perfectly comfortable paying a sizeable multiple of the undergrade coin price for these type of coins. Of course, on many pattern coins, the "ultimate grade" coins do not require one to pay a 5x or 10x price rise, but, I will pay what it takes to acquire the ultimate grade pattern nickels for my personal collection as well. I suppose those who pursue flawless diamonds, or perhaps even great wines, feel about the same way, be that right or wrong.
Again, I understand your position on keeping to the "side of the fence" where the price jump has not taken place yet. And, no question there is far less "risk" on that side of the fence as well.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
On the other hand the question about a Picasso hanging in someones living room (do the 99% of households in the world hang a Picasso in their living room?) is a false analogy because the things that account for the 1% difference in that MS-68 State Quarter that differentiates it from the other 500 million that were produced are not a product of some special talent, ability or incite. Whether or not you assign a significant value to those 1% differences (speak of coins) doesn't necessarily mean you don't recognize the differences in the same way that someone not familiar with art might not recognize a Picasso from a fake. Recognizing the differences is one thing, assigning 99% of the coins value to those differences is another.
>>
There is hardly a 1% difference between the finest coins and the typical coin even in classics. In the moderns much of the detail is lost as you move down the grading scale, and the amount of marking can become extreme. There is hundreds of times more difference in the different grades of unc than there is in little details like a mintmark or date on a 19th century coin. Even comparing moderns in adjacent grades can be misleading since there may sometimes be no true undergrades.
Individuals do not really assign any price to coins. They could if one constituted 100% of the demand and the supply but this is never the case. It is the market that determines these prices (and the real world that determines how many actually survive rather than Billjones' suppositions.)
Since this is obviously true then it would seem to follow that your difficulty is with the individuals' desire to obtain the best available. While seeking the very finest in most of the classics is far beyond most individual's financial means it is within many's means with the moderns. It only stands to rea- son that the spreads will be higher here when the just missed coins are plentiful. And they are plentiful sometimes.
The people who try and seriously justify paying large amounts of money for common mass-produced coinage that, according to some and before the next crackout, just happens to be slightly more mint than some other coin -- tend to be people who have a financial stake in the matter -- such as, making money off selling them. It always has been, and always will be, disturbing to watch certain things being hyped. There's a reason very minty modern coinage has such a strong connection to resubmission activity -- "condition rarity" is dependent to a large degree on what a company will label it as. Yes yes yes you can look at the coin and judge for yourself, but to sell it, and to have it count as much as you can in a registry set, resubmissions, crackouts, and corporate reports become an important part of many things. Too many things, and that is the window at the heart of the bashing.
Buyer: Your set is solid, right? It won't change because of a grader's whim, chemical effects, fingerprints, whatever that show up in later years, right? This set is ranked #2 because these coins are objectively THAT good, right?
Seller: Yep! Graded by the best! I have an extra minty #2 ranked registry set here for you, want to buy? It only costs 2 bazillion dollars.
Buyer: OK but since you stand behind the quality and rating of these coins -- how about we resubmit them all for a blind regrading, and see what they come back as. If this set is still #2, I will buy it.
Seller: I'll pass.
Buyer: OK, how about if I buy them, and try to sell them raw without the plastic, you guarantee I will recover, let's say, 65% of my buying cost?
Seller: No thanks.
Buyer: I mean, certainly you agree what you are basically selling isn't a coin that is hard to find or has something else deeply special about it other than being slightly more minty than one of its other mass-produced brothers, right? If that's the case, then why wouldn't you guarantee their condition even upon resubmission? You won't guarantee that the plastic & labels are worthy?
Seller: Um, no. That's silly to expect a seller to guarantee that.
Buyer: What if I pay for the resubmission and sign a contract. If the main value behind these coins is how they are slightly more perfect than some other recently minted coin -- why won't you resubmit them for me? I will sign a contract saying if they come back with the same grades, I must buy. I'm assuming that you stand behind what makes these coins so special -- and since they are ranked as the #2 registry set of their kind, you understand that proving their grading holds up is key, right?
Seller left, mumbling something about crown jewels, good investments, and special coins.
Most of the arguments I see posted by sellers, hypsters, promoters, etc. are very close in nature to those that sold, hyped, promoted, and supported buying fundamentally weak tech stocks at the height of the boom. Over the long-run, it's a very bad idea to pour a lot of money into things that are so heavily dependent upon, or especially vulnerable to, slight differences, changes, or whims of corporate paper and labels.
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Foundingfather; Your post is blatant modern bashing. It is not quite the first in this thread but it is the more blatant. All these arguments have been answered and shot down numerous times. The only point that hasn't is the insinuation that the only motivation for collectors, dealers, hypsters and promoters is the profit potential for these coins. It has been addressed in bits and pieces and certainly for the main part everyone's interest here is at least partially known. My own interests run the gamut of the reasons people collect moderns. I find these long ignored and hated coins to be fascinating. I initially got into them largely to make some fast money perhaps, but over the years I have totally succumbed to their charms. Eventually I do anticipate dealing in these coins and am merely waiting for their true value to be appreciated. It should be obvious when this occurs because the just missed and the mid grades will rise substantially to reflect their true scarcity. This will also narrow the spreads that modern bashers find so horrifying. There are only a handfull of deal- ers to service this rapidly growing market. Are we to question their motives simply because they have a financial stake in these coins? Why not question the honesty and integrity of those who service the classic markets? Their financial interests are surely just as intertwined with what they sell. Why aren't modern collectorsa questioning the wisdom of dealing with the "crooks" selling classics?
There are those, like me, who believe that the value of these coins has yet to soar. What sort of coin collector would love the coins, believe they are grossly undervalued and not seek them out?
There are those who make money selling folders and albums and grading the coins that modern col- lectors desire. Would you have them simply cease and desist so as to avoid an appearance of impropriety? Modern collectors don't need supplies for this junk anyway, right?
The vast bulk of the few people involved in the modern market are collectors. They look at coins and say "I want to collect these" and this is the real root of the modern bashing in nearly every case. Some people just can't understand how anyone would prefer to collect modern junk to whatever their specialty is.
Say what you will. Slam the collectors and those into moderns, but the fact remains that some people do find the coins interesting and collecting them to be fun. They find that at any grade the moderns are far cheaper than the classics, they find that for any degree of rarity the moderns are cheaper, they find a wealth of coins in circulation available for "free", they find that collecting off the beaten path has its own rewards, and they find a steady barage of bashing.
"There is hardly a 1% difference between the finest coins and the typical coin even in classics."
I wasn't comparing the finest to the typical. What was mentioned were the things that differentiate a MS-67 from a MS-68 or a 4 3/4 step versus a 5 step Jefferson. In those cases it is the miniscule differences that are suppose to account for the 10X ~ 100X premiums.
"Individuals do not really assign any price to coins."
On the contrary they do. I may not assign a market value/price to the coin but I access and determine what I believe the value/price of the coin may be. If my valuation matches the market valuation I buy, if it doesn't I don't. The market may say that an MS-68 State Quarter is worth $5,000 and for those buying and selling State Quarters at that price (I'm not one of them) my opinion doesn't matter. I can live with that .
"Since this is obviously true then it would seem to follow that your difficulty is with the individuals' desire to obtain the best available."
Not so obviously true and I don't have any "difficulty" with those individuals that want to obtain the best available. I think the main point of disagreement is whether a huge part of a coin's value should be tied to what I believe are very minor differences (MS-67 to 68, 68 to 69, 4 3/4 step to 5 step, etc.). My answer to that is no but it's a matter of opinion and perspective. On the other hand describing the differences as spectacular, incredible or liking them to the differences between a Picasso and my finger painting is a major stretch IMHO.
Wondercoin
"I will pay what it takes to acquire the ultimate grade pattern nickels for my personal collection as well."
Whatever makes you happy.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
"There are those, like me, who believe that the value of these coins has yet to soar."
I've intentionally not gotten into the argument about future valuations for this coins. I may agree with the reasoning or logic behind one speculative view but it's still one persons speculation versus anothers.
Again, I think the main question each person has to answer for themself is whether the things that differentiate the MS-68 pop 1 selling for $5,000 from the pop 10 or 20 or 50 MS-67's selling for $100 is worth the premium? Put another way should 90 ~ 99% of a coins value be tied to those differences?
I don't think the differences are that great (and I can identify the differences unlike my ability to identify an original Picasso ) that they justify those premiums. You do. I can live with that.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Cladking, I'm sorry that my post was too "blatant" for you, but I am merely stating what I believe to be the truth. You mention whether we should question the integrity of someone just because they deal in moderns -- I didn't mean to imply that we should. I was generalizing because I think there are general trends and some general forces behind much of the activity I was discussing. I wasn't talking about the integrity of modern sellers or buyers, I was more focusing on the natural motives, human nature & the nature of collectors, and most importantly, the played down risks and realities.
You wrote: "I initially got into them largely to make some fast money perhaps ... Eventually I do anticipate dealing in these coins ... There are those, like me, who believe that the value of these coins has yet to soar."
I don't see how you are not part of my generalization, or how you don't sound like those in my analogies. I stand behind what I said, and I believe there is some generalized truths to it. I believe the truth behind the crackouts, the corporate pop reports and labels, the wave of hype, and the inherent extra risks and vulnerabilities of "condition rarity" is what I was focusing on. Not someone's integrity or right to sell or buy or whatever.
There is a corporate factor behind some of the problem, and a hypester factor as well -- combine that with the inherent extra risk of so much money being exchanged for subtle differences in mass-produced coinage, and you can see who is avoiding some of the real truth and risks, and who seems motivated to glide over it. If I'm blatant, it's because I don't feel a need to cover up how I see things in this instance.
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The original reason i posted this thread was because every other thread i have read here refers to modern coins being Junk and PCGS should stop wasteing everyones time grading these coins and start grading all of their classics they are sending in so they can get them back faster!!! I have read some very interesting responses and have been very intrigued by most.. So i would like to make one thing clear... I collect Morgan Dollars, Buff nickels, rosie and Barber coins, and YES State Quarter...... If you have a problem with me paying $12 to send in a modern for grading and getting back in 30 days, and you sending $30 and getting them in 75 days,, all i can say is........ PAY FOR THE FASTEST MOST EXPENSIVE WAY TO HAVE YOUR COIN GRADED AND LIVE WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My collection includes gold, silver, copper, clad, with dates from 1795 to 2003. I'm not for bashing anyones collecting taste. But when the sales pitch or hyperbole starts regarding how this MS-68 State Quarter or 5 step Jefferson is spectacular, a precious jewel, like a Picasso, etc. and is miles apart from the MS-67 State Quarter or 4 3/4 Jefferson what can I say....it's like waving a red flag in front of a bull .
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I totally agree PMH, i will not pay the current prices for these coins, i buy a bag and pick 10 out to be graded shooting for a ms-67 set for my grandson.. so far 16 the rest just stay in the pcgs box for my GREATGRAND kids, i will not pay 135 dollars for a pcgs or anyother graded 67 of a state quarter, but these people who say the moderns are clogging the system can bite me...
me having my state quarter graded for my collection is just as important as anyone having their 1804 dollar graded, at least mine is to keep and not try to get one over on the next fool i can rip off.....
"My collection includes gold, silver, copper, clad, with dates from 1795 to 2003. I'm not for bashing anyones collecting taste. But when the sales pitch or hyperbole starts regarding how this MS-68 State Quarter or 5 step Jefferson is spectacular, a precious jewel, like a Picasso, etc. and is miles apart from the MS-67 State Quarter or 4 3/4 Jefferson what can I say....it's like waving a red flag in front of a bull ."
pmh1nic - Do you know the thrill of waiving a red flag in front of a big bull, center stage in Rio? Probably as much as a "rush" as finding a true gem 1969(s) Jefferson with 5 strong steps and part of the 6th step showing. ONE BIG DIFFERENCE THOUGH - TO MY KNOWLEDGE NO ONE HAS EVER FOUND THAT 1969(s) NICKEL YET, DESPITE 30+ YEARS OF SEARCHING!! When one is found next year or ten years from now , you can rest assured it will bring a HUGE MULTIPLE of the "near miss FS" price, without the need for sales pitch, hyperole, etc. That coin will be a "picasso" of the modern Jeff nickel series. You heard it here first
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
"Do you know the thrill of waiving a red flag in front of a big bull, center stage in Rio? Probably as much as a "rush" as finding a true gem 1969(s) Jefferson with 5 strong steps and part of the 6th step showing."
And you've got to be a little nuts to find your excitement in either .
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
"Do you know the thrill of waiving a red flag in front of a big bull, center stage in Rio? Probably as much as a "rush" as finding a true gem 1969(s) Jefferson with 5 strong steps and part of the 6th step showing."
And you've got to be a little nuts to find your excitement in either ."
True - but, you must admit, there is far less fun waiving the red flag in front of a cow or a pig.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
NO but i know the thrill of your DAD putting you on a 2300 pound Bremure (SORRY bout the spelling) bull, full blood Mexican hell raiser, and walking you around the cattle pen with the leash and nose ring in its nose,,,,,,, scared Poopless!!!!!!!!!!!!
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
As for bashing moderns, anyone who has a complete set of ms67 Kennedy halves can send them to me for immediate discard if they want to. Or maybe I would put them on the market for about twenty grand and see what happens next. Believe it or not moderns in high quality grades are hard to come by. Same of Ikes, try getting a complete set of ms 67s.Rarity, condition, availability, and marketability, put them all together and it doesn't matter if the coin was made 100 years ago or last week. Collectables are being made every day. What you choose to spend your bubble gum money on is up to you. I like Ikes and Kennedys
Founding Father makes a good point. Would most buyers be comfortable in buying the coin out of the plastic? From what I read here, coins can easily grade a point differently on resubmission. If people didn't believe that, there would be no crackouts.
It seems illogical to crackout/resubmit coins and at the same time believe a 10x premium for one grade point is justified.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
That's right, Kranky -- I would feel VERY differently about some general things IF the people who bought and sold these coins, the ones where you pay huge $ for small differences in grade for otherwise common coins, would feel comfortable with blind resubmissions and had to live with the results, forever.
If one is intellectually HONEST, they would admit that the uncomfortability with resubmitting modern registry sets or "condition rare" modern coins, whether as an exercise or part of a purchase agreement -- stems from the changing, unpredictable, and vulnerable state those coins have to corporate plastic with labels.
TOO BIG a part of many condition rare modern coins/sets is "getting a little lucky" or "some crackouts." This is why it is safer to put a lot of money (just talking investment talk here, since so many hypsters talk about the value of these coins increasing) into true rarity -- a fingerprint or pop report change showing up later on won't have the same chance of wiping out so much of the coin's value like it would with a condition rare modern that is mass produced and common. I understand people don't collect what is safer for their money necessarily, or even care about these issues. These issue come up when sellers are pitching how their value is going to soar, while denying the extra vulnerability these modern coins have, as they collect your dollars (same tactic for pitching those high-tech stocks a few years ago).
Yes yes yes, collect what you like -- but let's not make believe we all don't know that the reason people would dred resubmitting all their coins or sets, even if they were paid for their time and costs -- or be made to crackout and submit before the sale -- is because the coin's value is so strongly bound to the plastic with label, it's just too chancy that the coin's/set's status would dramatically change due changes in label(s).
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
Most modern bashers bash moderns because of their inability to grade within the 67-70 spectrum. Its understandable. Certain folks are more resistant to change than others. I respect their choices and will gladly purchase their Jackie Robinson gold coins at mint issue price in PCGS/NGC MS70! , Oh, Foundingfather: I will also purchase them at mint issue price raw, as well as Buffalo dollars also
Comments
Great, now I'm always going to wonder if every pretty girl I see has..... Oh, never mind.
Les
Cheers,
Bob
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
to walk them in a rain storm. Or pick up poop
or take them to the Vet for 200 dollars.
Camelot
<< <i>At least with a pet rock, you dont have to pick up poop >>
My pet rock kept leaving little pebbles all over the place
"There will be some really cool post-1950 MS rarities..."
There's a qualifying term or word missing from that sentence.
"There will be some really cool post-1950 MS rarities..."
There's a qualifying term or word missing from that sentence
........and i for one am curious what that qualifying word or term might be. i have an idea what it is, but go ahead and remove the veil of mystery so i can tell you why i pasted the upper term in first. man, i love these threads where the same people make the same blanket statements about the same segment of the hobby when they all actually pertain to the hobby as a whole.
al h.
There's a qualifying term or word missing from that sentence.
-------------------------
IMHO
Wondercoin
My main reason for not liking the high grade moderns is 2 fold. !. The premium paid for higher grade modern coins can be huge, yet the grading is subjective and the coin may not grade as high if the coin was cracked out and tried again or if the service doing the grading ever goes out of buisness. This complaint is not just about moderns though. I will never buy a classic coin graded higher then 67.
The second reason is I am a little uncomfortable with the term "condition rarity" for coins that aren't even scarce. When I have said this in the past people have taken it the wrong way. My meaning is that I prefer coins for collecting purposes to have at least an eliment [spelling ?] of scarcity to them to be desirable as a coin to collect, in that regaurd, I don't like all older classic coins either. Anyone that read Dragons post on his 65 upgraded to 67 CC dollar should understand what I mean about being skeptical of paying huge multiples of 1 point higher then another what ever the series classic or modern.
Les
Exactly - there was a "classic" example of a collector leaving 10x on the table on a classic coin. Interestingly, rarely is there a thread in a GIVEN MONTH on this board concerning the "STUPIDITY" of buying high grade classic coins. I suppose the author of this thread is simply tired of the one sided threads concerning moderns.
To be clear, I enjoy buying super high grade classic and modern coins, but (with respect to moderns), primarily enjoy SELECT high grade MINT STATE moderns beginning in the mid-1970's to date and I am less driven to buy the modern proofs of that era (with limited exceptions)
Wondercoin
"i love these threads where the same people make the same blanket statements about the same segment of the hobby when they all actually pertain to the hobby as a whole."
Save a little of that love for when I make the same statement (as I have numerous times in the past) regarding paying those types of premiums for classic coins
Wondercoin
"Exactly - there was a "classic" example of a collector leaving 10x on the table on a classic coin."
I'll have to try and find the tread in question and read it to understand the relevance to the discussion of paying 10x one point grade rarity premiums. But if it's related to someone getting a one point upgrade and selling the coin for a 10x+ premium over what they paid for it wouldn't change what I believe is a basic lack of wisdom (IMHO
A true, high quality MS68 Barber coin or SLQ, or a sensational PR67DCAM Liberty nickel, etc. is so special in that top grade that the issue of "multiple" to the undergrade often flys out the window to that specialized collector. The same is true for a modern coin like a gem 1969(d) or (s) nickel in true "FS" vs. a near miss 4 3/4 step coin, etc.
I agree that to many, a gem 4 3/4 step 1969(s) nickel is great. But, to a certain small % of coin collectors out there, the 4 3/4 step is OK, but, a true 5+ stepper is what it is all about. To this scintella of the collecting public, the issue of 4 3/4 steps for $250 or 5 steps at $10,000 is the same issue as "you are either pregnant or not pregnant" - there is no substitute for the 5 stepper - period, end. Likewise, there is no substitute for a true MS68RD Indian cent at $70,000 vs. an MS67RD at say $10,000. Or, a 1926(s) Lincoln cent in MS64RD at $5000or MS65RD at $100,000+. Or, even a true MS68 silver Wash quarter at $10,000+ vs. an MS67 at $300.
Of course, no one expects the "other 99%" of the collecting public to agree with these types of purchases. Do the 99% of households in the world hang a Picasso in their living room? All that is asked is the simple courtesy of not harshly attacking the collecting habits of others, whether we are talking about moderns or classics. There is simply no need to bash moderns or classics.
And, as for the comment about a one point jump not being worth 10x+ - I simply totally disagree. These are the very special coins I am personally after, (often times) along with the room full of collectors and dealers fighting for these crown jewels. With respect to my personal collections, these are basically the key coins I am interested in (of course, if graded properly). I could care less that to many people these coins are "not worth it". But, I would also never tell other collectors they are wrong for collecting circulated examples or Ch BU or whatever other lower grades someone else may chose to pursue. Have you noticed that the collectors and dealers who pursue the prize finest known coins rarely (adversely) comment about the masses collecting lower grade coins, but, the comments seem to always be leveled at the collectors seeking the top grade specimens, especially the modern top graded coins. Why must that be?
Wondercoin
<< <i>
My main reason for not liking the high grade moderns is 2 fold. !. The premium paid for higher grade modern coins can be huge, yet the grading is subjective and the coin may not grade as high if the coin was cracked out and tried again or if the service doing the grading ever goes out of buisness. This complaint is not just about moderns though. I will never buy a classic coin graded higher then 67. >>
Yes. Grading is subjective and life is ephemeral. There's no way of knowing how
coins will be graded tomorrow or who will be grading them. Strike may become the
determining factor in grading, or possibly collectors in the future will want only PL
regardless of eye appeal or marking. We may have computer grading and real stan-
dards. All coins may have been submitted so many times that even pocket change
usually grades MS-70.
But one thing is a virtual certainty; collectors will still seek quality. Whatever collectors
deem high quality in the future is more likely to be in a MS-70 slab than an MS-60 or an
MS-69 slab. In any case though people are demanding high grade coins because they
are the grade they seek. Some people look for high grade coins raw. What do they care
what collectors in twenty years grade them if they don't care what they grade now? One
is supposed to be collecting coins rather than slabs anyway.
Not that there's something wrong with MS-64 or MS-65 coins. These are very attractive
coins and if one collects Barbers or the like the higher grades are extremely pricey. We all
have to pick and choose what we want from the hobby, and we all have limitations of
finances, time, and effort that we can commit to it. We choose what we collect and then
we go for it. People who choose the highest grade aren't so very much more numerous,
but the coins they seek are that much less numerous. It is not surprising that the spreads
in the higher grades get pretty wide.
<< <i>
The second reason is I am a little uncomfortable with the term "condition rarity" for coins that aren't even scarce. When I have said this in the past people have taken it the wrong way. My meaning is that I prefer coins for collecting purposes to have at least an eliment [spelling ?] of scarcity to them to be desirable as a coin to collect, in that regaurd, I don't like all older classic coins either. Anyone that read Dragons post on his 65 upgraded to 67 CC dollar should understand what I mean about being skeptical of paying huge multiples of 1 point higher then another what ever the series classic or modern.
>>
I guess I still don't understand this point. Some classics are common and some are rare. Some
moderns are common and some are rare. It's true that many more moderns are common on a
percentage basis and it's also true that modern common coins can be far more common than
classic common coins. So? Just as classic date/mm collectors collect them all so do the modern
date/mm collectors. Why would someone include an MS-67 '82NMM dime in a collection with XF/
AU clad dimes? Won't the collection look more attractive if all are MS-67? Just because there are
many millions of 1975 dimes that are in circulation it does not mean the coin is common in unc. Just
because unc '75 dimes are not rare doesn't mean that MS-67 '75 dimes are not rare. People should
collect what they enjoy. Entertainment and investment considerations will be maximized this way.
It is not wise to buy the highest grade if you can't tell independently that it truly is the highest grade.
It is not wise to buy moderns or Barbers for investment, because if you do you will make mistakes.
If you don't enjoy the coins you will not learn the subtleties which differentiate the rare from the
common. You will take the advise of others who will sometimes hold there own interests in exclu-
sion of your own. You will also make many of your own mistakes, but the biggest mistake will be
getting into the greatest hobby in the world and not having any fun.
Let me start by saying there is no right and wrong here and I'm serious when I say there is no intent to bash. We're just having a discussion.
"become transfixed on obtaining that very, very special coin"..."a Picasso sell at a multiple of myriad other artists who paint quite nicely"..."5+ stepper is what it is all about"..."very special coins"..."crown jewels"
All of these statements place a huge emphasis on the 1% of a coins appearance separates in from the coins 1 point (or in some cases a fraction of a point) below it and allows that 1% difference to account for 99% of the coins value. I really do understand the mentality behind this but it reflects IMHO and based on my sense of value too much emphasis on that 1%.
You are the consummate sales person and like to use terms such as "very special coins"..."crown jewels"..."a Picasso"..."sensational", etc. The use of those terms is a reflection of putting a major focus on the 1% versus the 99% is meant to adjust the focus of collectors to those differences and generate sales and profits (and there is nothing sinister about that). It also may happen to reflect your personal opinion. All fine and dandy.
On the other hand the question about a Picasso hanging in someones living room (do the 99% of households in the world hang a Picasso in their living room?) is a false analogy because the things that account for the 1% difference in that MS-68 State Quarter that differentiates it from the other 500 million that were produced are not a product of some special talent, ability or incite. Whether or not you assign a significant value to those 1% differences (speak of coins) doesn't necessarily mean you don't recognize the differences in the same way that someone not familiar with art might not recognize a Picasso from a fake. Recognizing the differences is one thing, assigning 99% of the coins value to those differences is another.
"All that is asked is the simple courtesy of not harshly attacking the collecting habits of others"
I 100% agree but I hope you don't feel that just having the discussion about the differences among collector in how that assign value to a coin is in itself bashing. We can agree to disagree and do it respectfully.
"Have you noticed that the collectors and dealers who pursue the prize finest known coins rarely (adversely) comment about the masses collecting lower grade coins, but, the comments seem to always be leveled at the collectors seeking the top grade specimens, especially the modern top graded coins. Why must that be?"
Hey, the dealers don't want to alienate their customer base and the guys paying big bucks for those pop 1 coins tend to drive the prices up on the other coins for the little guy
Then again ususually the questions regarding valuations are an attempt to understand why there can be such a huge difference in pricing between coins that are similiar in 99% of their characteristics. The $100 coins don't attract the same attention as the $50,000 or $500,000 coins.
In today's market a Chain Cent in Good-4 @ $10,000 is overpriced. The same thing can be said for modern coins when the premium for a one grading point difference is huge.
NOTHING is "priceless," and ANYTHING can be overpriced.
pmh1nic - I never mentioned an MS68 state quarter. If we are having fun here debating my points, let's stick to the text
Wondercoin
Camelot
We've had this discussion on numerous occassions over the years. Whether we're talking about an MS-67 versus MS-68 State Quarter (which we have discussed in the same type of context) or a 4 3/4 step versus a 5 step Jefferson it still comes down to the very minute factors (IMHO) that differentiate the two. In either case your Picasso comment doesn't fly. One has to do with incidental happenstance (first coin struck after an adjustment to the coin press or that one coin that ends up with a couple less dings in processing and transportation) versus a lifetime of practice, acquiring knowledge that is coupled with tremendous natural talent and ability.
Your stretch in comparing the differences in these coins (67 vs 68 State Quarters or 4 3/4 vs 5 step Jeffersons) to the difference between a Picasso and the best I can do via paint-by-numbers
Sticking to the 4 3/4 step vs. 5 step example (and a similar discussion can be had for "95% FB" Mercs, or 95% FBL Frankins, or 95% FH SLQ's), or a coin such as a spectacular (not crappy plastic) MS68 Indian Cent, early Lincoln cent or silver Wash quarter, I am perfectly comfortable paying a sizeable multiple of the undergrade coin price for these type of coins. Of course, on many pattern coins, the "ultimate grade" coins do not require one to pay a 5x or 10x price rise, but, I will pay what it takes to acquire the ultimate grade pattern nickels for my personal collection as well. I suppose those who pursue flawless diamonds, or perhaps even great wines, feel about the same way, be that right or wrong.
Again, I understand your position on keeping to the "side of the fence" where the price jump has not taken place yet. And, no question there is far less "risk" on that side of the fence as well.
Wondercoin
<< <i>.
On the other hand the question about a Picasso hanging in someones living room (do the 99% of households in the world hang a Picasso in their living room?) is a false analogy because the things that account for the 1% difference in that MS-68 State Quarter that differentiates it from the other 500 million that were produced are not a product of some special talent, ability or incite. Whether or not you assign a significant value to those 1% differences (speak of coins) doesn't necessarily mean you don't recognize the differences in the same way that someone not familiar with art might not recognize a Picasso from a fake. Recognizing the differences is one thing, assigning 99% of the coins value to those differences is another.
>>
There is hardly a 1% difference between the finest coins and the typical coin even in classics.
In the moderns much of the detail is lost as you move down the grading scale, and the amount
of marking can become extreme. There is hundreds of times more difference in the different
grades of unc than there is in little details like a mintmark or date on a 19th century coin. Even
comparing moderns in adjacent grades can be misleading since there may sometimes be no true
undergrades.
Individuals do not really assign any price to coins. They could if one constituted 100% of the demand
and the supply but this is never the case. It is the market that determines these prices (and the real
world that determines how many actually survive rather than Billjones' suppositions.)
Since this is obviously true then it would seem to follow that your difficulty is with the individuals'
desire to obtain the best available. While seeking the very finest in most of the classics is far beyond
most individual's financial means it is within many's means with the moderns. It only stands to rea-
son that the spreads will be higher here when the just missed coins are plentiful. And they are
plentiful sometimes.
Buyer: Your set is solid, right? It won't change because of a grader's whim, chemical effects, fingerprints, whatever that show up in later years, right? This set is ranked #2 because these coins are objectively THAT good, right?
Seller: Yep! Graded by the best! I have an extra minty #2 ranked registry set here for you, want to buy? It only costs 2 bazillion dollars.
Buyer: OK but since you stand behind the quality and rating of these coins -- how about we resubmit them all for a blind regrading, and see what they come back as. If this set is still #2, I will buy it.
Seller: I'll pass.
Buyer: OK, how about if I buy them, and try to sell them raw without the plastic, you guarantee I will recover, let's say, 65% of my buying cost?
Seller: No thanks.
Buyer: I mean, certainly you agree what you are basically selling isn't a coin that is hard to find or has something else deeply special about it other than being slightly more minty than one of its other mass-produced brothers, right? If that's the case, then why wouldn't you guarantee their condition even upon resubmission? You won't guarantee that the plastic & labels are worthy?
Seller: Um, no. That's silly to expect a seller to guarantee that.
Buyer: What if I pay for the resubmission and sign a contract. If the main value behind these coins is how they are slightly more perfect than some other recently minted coin -- why won't you resubmit them for me? I will sign a contract saying if they come back with the same grades, I must buy. I'm assuming that you stand behind what makes these coins so special -- and since they are ranked as the #2 registry set of their kind, you understand that proving their grading holds up is key, right?
Seller left, mumbling something about crown jewels, good investments, and special coins.
Most of the arguments I see posted by sellers, hypsters, promoters, etc. are very close in nature to those that sold, hyped, promoted, and supported buying fundamentally weak tech stocks at the height of the boom. Over the long-run, it's a very bad idea to pour a lot of money into things that are so heavily dependent upon, or especially vulnerable to, slight differences, changes, or whims of corporate paper and labels.
but it is the more blatant. All these arguments have been answered and shot down numerous
times. The only point that hasn't is the insinuation that the only motivation for collectors, dealers,
hypsters and promoters is the profit potential for these coins. It has been addressed in bits and
pieces and certainly for the main part everyone's interest here is at least partially known. My own
interests run the gamut of the reasons people collect moderns. I find these long ignored and hated
coins to be fascinating. I initially got into them largely to make some fast money perhaps, but over
the years I have totally succumbed to their charms. Eventually I do anticipate dealing in these coins
and am merely waiting for their true value to be appreciated. It should be obvious when this occurs
because the just missed and the mid grades will rise substantially to reflect their true scarcity. This
will also narrow the spreads that modern bashers find so horrifying. There are only a handfull of deal-
ers to service this rapidly growing market. Are we to question their motives simply because they have
a financial stake in these coins? Why not question the honesty and integrity of those who service the
classic markets? Their financial interests are surely just as intertwined with what they sell. Why aren't
modern collectorsa questioning the wisdom of dealing with the "crooks" selling classics?
There are those, like me, who believe that the value of these coins has yet to soar. What sort of coin
collector would love the coins, believe they are grossly undervalued and not seek them out?
There are those who make money selling folders and albums and grading the coins that modern col-
lectors desire. Would you have them simply cease and desist so as to avoid an appearance of impropriety?
Modern collectors don't need supplies for this junk anyway, right?
The vast bulk of the few people involved in the modern market are collectors. They look at coins and
say "I want to collect these" and this is the real root of the modern bashing in nearly every case. Some
people just can't understand how anyone would prefer to collect modern junk to whatever their specialty
is.
Say what you will. Slam the collectors and those into moderns, but the fact remains that some people
do find the coins interesting and collecting them to be fun. They find that at any grade the moderns are
far cheaper than the classics, they find that for any degree of rarity the moderns are cheaper, they find
a wealth of coins in circulation available for "free", they find that collecting off the beaten path has its
own rewards, and they find a steady barage of bashing.
"There is hardly a 1% difference between the finest coins and the typical coin even in classics."
I wasn't comparing the finest to the typical. What was mentioned were the things that differentiate a MS-67 from a MS-68 or a 4 3/4 step versus a 5 step Jefferson. In those cases it is the miniscule differences that are suppose to account for the 10X ~ 100X premiums.
"Individuals do not really assign any price to coins."
On the contrary they do. I may not assign a market value/price to the coin but I access and determine what I believe the value/price of the coin may be. If my valuation matches the market valuation I buy, if it doesn't I don't. The market may say that an MS-68 State Quarter is worth $5,000 and for those buying and selling State Quarters at that price (I'm not one of them) my opinion doesn't matter. I can live with that
"Since this is obviously true then it would seem to follow that your difficulty is with the individuals'
desire to obtain the best available."
Not so obviously true and I don't have any "difficulty" with those individuals that want to obtain the best available. I think the main point of disagreement is whether a huge part of a coin's value should be tied to what I believe are very minor differences (MS-67 to 68, 68 to 69, 4 3/4 step to 5 step, etc.). My answer to that is no but it's a matter of opinion and perspective. On the other hand describing the differences as spectacular, incredible or liking them to the differences between a Picasso and my finger painting is a major stretch IMHO.
Wondercoin
"I will pay what it takes to acquire the ultimate grade pattern nickels for my personal collection as well."
Whatever makes you happy.
"There are those, like me, who believe that the value of these coins has yet to soar."
I've intentionally not gotten into the argument about future valuations for this coins. I may agree with the reasoning or logic behind one speculative view but it's still one persons speculation versus anothers.
Again, I think the main question each person has to answer for themself is whether the things that differentiate the MS-68 pop 1 selling for $5,000 from the pop 10 or 20 or 50 MS-67's selling for $100 is worth the premium? Put another way should 90 ~ 99% of a coins value be tied to those differences?
I don't think the differences are that great (and I can identify the differences unlike my ability to identify an original Picasso
You wrote: "I initially got into them largely to make some fast money perhaps ... Eventually I do anticipate dealing in these coins ... There are those, like me, who believe that the value of these coins has yet to soar."
I don't see how you are not part of my generalization, or how you don't sound like those in my analogies. I stand behind what I said, and I believe there is some generalized truths to it. I believe the truth behind the crackouts, the corporate pop reports and labels, the wave of hype, and the inherent extra risks and vulnerabilities of "condition rarity" is what I was focusing on. Not someone's integrity or right to sell or buy or whatever.
There is a corporate factor behind some of the problem, and a hypester factor as well -- combine that with the inherent extra risk of so much money being exchanged for subtle differences in mass-produced coinage, and you can see who is avoiding some of the real truth and risks, and who seems motivated to glide over it. If I'm blatant, it's because I don't feel a need to cover up how I see things in this instance.
If you have a problem with me paying $12 to send in a modern for grading and getting back in 30 days, and you sending $30 and getting them in 75 days,, all i can say is........ PAY FOR THE FASTEST MOST EXPENSIVE WAY TO HAVE YOUR COIN GRADED AND LIVE WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My collection includes gold, silver, copper, clad, with dates from 1795 to 2003. I'm not for bashing anyones collecting taste. But when the sales pitch or hyperbole starts regarding how this MS-68 State Quarter or 5 step Jefferson is spectacular, a precious jewel, like a Picasso, etc. and is miles apart from the MS-67 State Quarter or 4 3/4 Jefferson what can I say....it's like waving a red flag in front of a bull
pmh1nic - Do you know the thrill of waiving a red flag in front of a big bull, center stage in Rio? Probably as much as a "rush" as finding a true gem 1969(s) Jefferson with 5 strong steps and part of the 6th step showing. ONE BIG DIFFERENCE THOUGH - TO MY KNOWLEDGE NO ONE HAS EVER FOUND THAT 1969(s) NICKEL YET, DESPITE 30+ YEARS OF SEARCHING!!
Wondercoin
And you've got to be a little nuts to find your excitement in either
And you've got to be a little nuts to find your excitement in either ."
True - but, you must admit, there is far less fun waiving the red flag in front of a cow or a pig.
Wondercoin
"True - but, you must admit, there is far less fun waiving the red flag in front of a cow or a pig."
Try telling that to this guy
It seems illogical to crackout/resubmit coins and at the same time believe a 10x premium for one grade point is justified.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
If one is intellectually HONEST, they would admit that the uncomfortability with resubmitting modern registry sets or "condition rare" modern coins, whether as an exercise or part of a purchase agreement -- stems from the changing, unpredictable, and vulnerable state those coins have to corporate plastic with labels.
TOO BIG a part of many condition rare modern coins/sets is "getting a little lucky" or "some crackouts." This is why it is safer to put a lot of money (just talking investment talk here, since so many hypsters talk about the value of these coins increasing) into true rarity -- a fingerprint or pop report change showing up later on won't have the same chance of wiping out so much of the coin's value like it would with a condition rare modern that is mass produced and common. I understand people don't collect what is safer for their money necessarily, or even care about these issues. These issue come up when sellers are pitching how their value is going to soar, while denying the extra vulnerability these modern coins have, as they collect your dollars (same tactic for pitching those high-tech stocks a few years ago).
Yes yes yes, collect what you like -- but let's not make believe we all don't know that the reason people would dred resubmitting all their coins or sets, even if they were paid for their time and costs -- or be made to crackout and submit before the sale -- is because the coin's value is so strongly bound to the plastic with label, it's just too chancy that the coin's/set's status would dramatically change due changes in label(s).
Its understandable. Certain folks are more resistant to change than others. I respect their choices and will gladly purchase their Jackie Robinson gold coins at mint issue price in PCGS/NGC MS70!
, Oh, Foundingfather:
I will also purchase them at mint issue price raw, as well as Buffalo dollars also
Brian
Do you have any early printings of The Federalist Papers?
I collect those as well. No sarcasm!, I am for real!
Brian.