artificial toning

laurentyvan · June 25, 2003 6:21AM

Hi folks-new to your group and I hope to contribute over time, but right now
a little advice-what is the best way (or ways) to recognize artificial toning?
I recently purchased a nice trade dollar with blue and rose toning but after
reading some threads on AT, I'm becoming curious. Thanks in advance

cherrypickincoin · June 25, 2003 6:24AM

Natural toning on a coin should be uniform in some nature. If you see sudden breaks in the toning and then it picks up again, it could be artificial. If you see very unnatural, crayon like colors, it could be artificial. It's rather difficult to describe without seeing enough coins to know what to look for. Natural toning should be deep, almost as if it's embedded in the coin. AT will lie on the surface, it just has a different appearance.

braddick · June 25, 2003 6:29AM

I would add too your first concern would be authenticity as many counterfeit Trade dollars are making the rounds. If it is holdered by ANACS or PCGS or NGC you are safe on this account and probably ahead of the game regarding the toning too.

Trade dollars generally don't come with abundant toning and I would be a tad suspicious if yours does. Generally AT on Trades is done not to enhance the beauty but to hide flaws. Either way, welcome to the Forums!
Would you add detail to your post? What is the year/MM (as some are more readily faked then others) and if the coin is raw.

nwcs · June 25, 2003 6:34AM

Welcome Lauren. The first thing I'd recommend is buying the AT video from the ANA. It's at the bottom of this page.

Some things that are not absolutes but are hints

1. Color crawls up over devices and back down
2. Circus colors (super bright and vibrant)
3. Abrupt color changes
4. Signs of water tension on the surface
5. Color sequences wrong

Clankeye · June 25, 2003 6:36AM

Welcome to the forum, Laurentyvan.

Clankeye

gsaguy · June 25, 2003 6:49AM

<<what is the best way (or ways) to recognize artificial toning?>>

Welcome to the boards Lauren!

As for your question, the answer often defies words or pictures.

I guess the short answer it is: experience.

We'll all do what we can to help.

Can you post some decent pics of your coin?

GSAGUY

laurentyvan · June 25, 2003 6:55AM

Merci! The trade dollar is an 1877 with fairly deep blue toning around the edge of the obverse, perhaps a quarter inch in
overall from the rim with hints of rose around the right hand and other devices.

Geoman · June 25, 2003 6:56AM

A big WELCOME to 'ya!

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 7:01AM

Welcome, laurentyvan! Can you tell us where you bought the coin?

Peaceman · June 25, 2003 7:06AM

I would suggest some publications with pictures. PCGS has one that's out of print called "Coin grading and Conterfeit detection". Generally, AT looks like it's on top of the coin rather than coming from inside it....

laurentyvan · June 25, 2003 7:07AM

thanks zman- I purchased the coin from a local coin dealer in Rochester NY. It was purchased raw
and at the time I felt it might have been cleaned but the toning was pretty, the price was right ($95 in VF),
and I needed it for my US type collection. I will be able to post scans in the near future but can't now.

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 7:17AM

The reason I asked is that a great many Trade Dollars were counterfeited in the Far East during their circulation. It's one of the reasons the coin was discontinued (and demonetized). You'll find a host of sellers on eBay from Singapore, Malaysia, etc. selling Trade Dollars. VERY SUSPICIOUS. A horde of about 200 of them surfaced as recently as last year at the Hong Kong International Coin Show. I happen to have a counterfeit Trade Dollar that I paid $180 for!

laurentyvan · June 25, 2003 7:23AM

ouch! I am trying to assemble 4 US type coin sets (Dansco US type coin album) for my four children. The assumption is by the time I'm done the final one I asemble for myself will be the result of education, wisdom, and experience and presumably the best of the bunch.
Don't mean to sound selfish, but...

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 7:39AM

laurentyvan: what a great idea! I'm also working on the Dansco type set. What I like about it is that it doesn't require you get "impossible" issues like the 1793 half cent, or every little variation in the Liberty Seated series. It's a very "do-able" collection. Mine is taking a while, though, because I'm looking for high grade coins.

Russ · June 25, 2003 7:50AM

Pop quiz.

Which coin is artificially toned and which is naturally toned.

(Gsaguy is not allowed to participate.

)

Russ, NCNE

laurentyvan · June 25, 2003 7:54AM

Zman-when I first started collecting I learned about graded coins. I thought, well, a method of scientifically and neutrally grading coins- no more doubts! But, it seems to me that raw coins sell for what they should (assuming they are legitimate and un-doctored) but graded coins in someones holder sell for much more. Is the assumption then that a legitimate coin-i.e. a graded one is worth more because of the guarantee (the holder) and an ungraded one worth less automatically? And if so, what does that say about published values that don't differentiate?

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 7:54AM

Trick question, I think. They both look OT to me.

laurentyvan · June 25, 2003 7:56AM

coin on the bottom is AT?

ER · June 25, 2003 8:02AM

Russ,
The one on the RIGHT is NT, one on the LEFT is AT.

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 8:02AM

laurentyvan: Ah, now you've opened a pandora's box. There are official grading standards set forth by the American Numismatic Association to which third party graders like PCGS, NGC, and ANACS adhere to. Those three are, in my opinion, the most reputable. The others run the gamut from OK to downright shifty. So value would also depend on the grading service itself. There is a host of complicated issues associated with grading. I'm not sure you want me to go into it all. However, I will say that buying certain raw coins has become a risky venture, especially over the internet. You've got to know your coins extremely well!

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 8:04AM

A POX ON YOU RUSS! I knew it was a trick question!

curiousgeorge · June 25, 2003 8:05AM

I'm just a newbie, but here is my guess (disclaimer I know not what I am talking about). Bottom toned from an album? Top is AT due to the inconsistent pattern across the coin and the sharp difference btw colors? Please tell me I am wrong and why and which is AT.

Bear · June 25, 2003 8:41AM

Top coin looks OK and natural.

Bottom coin is AT, but that call is only 50/50. It does share certain similarities

to coins stored in a Wayte Raymond holder .

curiousgeorge · June 25, 2003 11:29PM

So, what is the answer? How long until you provide the answer to the question posed? Inquiring minds want to know.

baccaruda · June 25, 2003 11:41PM

Top one is good, bottom is obviously AT - those purple and blue colors don't look natural at all.

baccaruda · June 25, 2003 11:42PM

now that I look at it, I'm not sure the top one is natural either.

Chrysta · June 26, 2003 12:14AM

I would recommend, laurentyvan, that if there are any largish coin shows around your area that you bring your trade dollar to ANACS for a free opinion on it. I bought a Trade Dollar raw a few years ago for about what you paid for yours, in about the same grade (sans toning), but as I read and learned more, I started to hear the horror stories about counterfeits abounding in the series. I should have read about it before I bought it, but we live and learn! Anyway, next big show I went to, I got ANACS to look at the coin, and they told me it was real. A happy ending, but I should have read first...and so should you!

Tassa · June 26, 2003 12:34AM

laurentyvan-Welcome! Some great advice has been given here. You might also want to consider using the search feature to look up past discussions on artificial toning if you haven't already. There has been a plethora of threads produced concerning this subject.

Russ · June 26, 2003 12:57AM

Top one is classic bag toning, the real deal. It's the Flea Market Morgan that graded MS65 at PCGS.

Bottom one is phony as hell.

Russ, NCNE

artificial toning

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