Mr. Swimmer, I don't claim to be an expert on detecting AT coins but i'd like to pass on a little story i saw happen in person at a Minneapolis coin show last year. While i was walking the bourse floor looking for type coins i overheard a dealer and a customer argueing over the originality over a coin and the customer asking how toning like on the coin they were looking at could accure naturally, at this point my curiousity got the best of me and i asked to see the coin they were talking about. The dealer pulled out a morgan dollar with fantastic semiprooflike luster clean surfaces but it had turned completly purple and i'm talking tootsie pop purple on both sides of the coin. Most people would probably guess with that description that the coin was AT however it was in a p.c.g.s. 65 slab. The dealer asked my opionion on the coin and i told him tha i was no expert but my gut instinct was that naturally toned coins don't develope perfectly even single color 2 sided toning but that p.c.g.s. wouldn't have slabbed it if they thought it was AT.
Some members here offered a very reasonable suggestion to you that might help resolve this issue. Send your toned coins in for slabbing from one of the 3 major services [myself i would use p.c.g.s.] for the less expensive pieces you could use economy service. For more expensive pieces the regular 25.00 service might make those coins more sellable to buyers if the origen of the toning is in doubt.
Accusing someone of being a coin doctor with only the belief that he has AT coins for sale is wrong unless you have proof not only that his coins are AT but that the person in question participated in the docktoring and was knowingly and willfully defrauding his customers.
Mr. Swimmer, the idea of sending the coins in for slabbing to end this controversy seems like a real good compromise solution to me, what do you think ? barberlover
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
I have never met the gentlemen, I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about him. My commnets were a personal observation on human behavior, and on the nature and tone of some posts that appeared here.
I apologize for my reference to "men". For a moment I ceased to be politically correct (PC), for which I am sorry. I sincerely hope any bruised egos heal quickly, but I'm sure they will, the men here are strong men, good men. I will strive to be 100% PC in any future posts. Feel free to throw your largest stones should any PC transgression occur again.
I thought I made every effort in my post not to appear to attack any individual personally, and I apologize to anyone who thought otherewise.
However, IMO, the Inquisition is alive and very healthy. The zealots are ranting and raving, guilty and innocent will both be put to the torch in the name of vigilante justice, those with opposing views must be silenced with insults and name calling (personal attacks), and the world will be cleansed and preserved. Praise be to God, for the self-righteous have awaken from their slumber and taken action. If a few, or a few hundred, or a few thousand, or a few million or ... are maimed and killed as collatoral damage (reputations destroyed), well, it must be OK, for RIGHT has been served.
Mr. Swimmer, How about the idea i mentioned ?? barberlover.
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
That sounds like a fine idea so please call off the members here that are bidding on the coins just so they can get what they call the evidence or somehow use the win to give me a negative or possibly pay then reverse the charges. these are all ideas that have been floating around on various threads here. Conspiring to gang up and hurt someones business or reputation is not good. Now, I don't mean allot of people here are part of this, perhaps 10 people or so that had their warpaint on.
<< <i>the Inquisition is alive and very healthy. >>
Week in and week out it never ceases to amaze me that the intellect of this board decides to go "mental" for the sake of arguing, and invariably someone gets hurt. Let's review the facts:
1. The coins in question are not toned correctly. I'll go it further than GSAGUY's magnanimus description, and basically say they are garbage.
2. Whether aswimmer knew or did not know about their origin is immaterial to this argument. He's selling them and he should not be - WHY? Because someone is going to be taken advantage of and that's the source of our collective ire. Just as he mentions that HE was taken advantage of early on his purchases, he's perpetuating this sickening cycle and we wish to put a stop to it, but lord knows we can't - and if you don't believe me, write a letter to HSN or The Shopping Network and buy some coins.
3. We, in this forum, should be savvy enough about the hobby to be able to agree that when coins are fake, AT'd, or whatever, we should be able to point them out, point out the discrepancies and call for their removal from sale. However, to start calling people names and to drag ancestors into arguments just brings us down to these seller's level.
Aswimmer, whatever your excuse for selling these coins is, you're the one that has to live with your concience. Look back at the rotten feeling you had when you found out that your dollar was a fake and how foolish you felt for having spent your hard earned money on a bogus coin and decide what you want to do with the rest of your coins. I'm not going to sit here and praise or tear down your customer service philosophies or your moral integrity. But I am going to tell you that an opinion on your coins has been rendered by very knowledgeable folks in this hobby, and that opinion is that your coins are not what they seem to be. If you want to take advantage of unknowing collectors, we will continue to wave the red flag and warn everyone and anyone who comes near those coins.
If I were you I'd do the honorable thing. Remove your auctions, get these coins certified, and if in fact they are genuine, bring them back for sale and I'm sure we'll all be eating crow in here - but to be honest, I don't think that's going to happen. You mention CAVEAT EMPTOR in your postings, well, here's another CAVEAT - keep putting these coins up, and we'll keep tearing them down.
As for the forum members - PEOPLE!!! QUIT BEING SO DAMNED ARGUMENTATIVE AND JUST GET DOWN TO THE FACTS! Once you're there, there's no arguing about it!
Ahhh! Another great weekend rumble here on the forum, complete with multiple "new" members to defend the accused. I have to tell you all, I am currently reading "The Man from St. Petersburg" by Ken Follet, and these Aswimmer threads are every bit as entertaining as the work of Mr. Follet (a best selling author.)
Anyway, as far as the toning goes, I'm pretty sure that the coin KAZ is showing is AT even with the limited knowledge I have of toned coins. The colors going around the letters and numbers instead of flowing over them are a dead give away for AT from what I have been told. But alas, I will defer to those with more experience than I.
The one thing that I do have experience with that makes no sense to me, is Alan's claim that the oven and hotplate are for his daughter to heat up leftovers in a college dorm. (I know it's petty for me to pick on such things, but when one element appears to be untruthful, it casts doubts on the rest of the story.) Why would someone spent over a hundred dollars plus shipping on two pieces of industrial equipment when microwave ovens can be purchased at any Walmart for less than $50??? Granted, it has been 13 years since I lived in a college dorm, but even then, everyone had microwave ovens. No one had idustrial thermol ovens! Maybe the college chemistry professor in the other thread (I forgot his name) can enlighten us as to what today's college kids are doing to re-heat their Domino's leftovers!
OK, that's it. I'm done. Good luck all with the rest of the debate, and please don't take any of this too seriously!
I have examined, via the internet, the two coins on a related thread. They are ABSOLUTELY NOT the same coin. That being said there is way too much hyperbole and mania going on here. I have been involved in numismatic disputes, as an arbitrator, for over thirty years and as an expert witness around the country for a wide variety of agencies and individuals. There can be an investigation, but it must be done in person. Absent that, the things that have been said here about Mr. Swimmer, are at the minimum, ignorant, and very possible defamatory, and should be stopped immediately. I will be in attendance at Long Beach and would be happy to examine any coins and give my opinion in person. I hope this is of some value.
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Very interesting thread. I wish it was in person so we could have a good panel discussion moderated by an impartial judge.
Mr. Swimmer, I think sending the coins to a leading service (such as PCGS, NGC, and ANACS) is an excellent idea. At least for a few of the coins. We've all had our learning experiences when it comes to toning. Another idea for everyone here is to purchase/view the "How to detect artificial toning" video by Bob Campbell. You can buy it from the ANA (www.money.org, go to the moneymarket catalog) and sometimes catch it in the lineup of www.cointelevision.com.
If everyone views this video and takes a look at some market acceptible toned coins in holders, I think everyone will be better equipped to see what is chemically induced and what is air transferred.
The seller has been requested to post photos here (or on the related thread) showing both coins together side by side obverse and side by side reverses along with today's date paper. This request was made several hours ago and nothing further has been heard from Mr. Swimmer since.
Wow! All this since I went to dinner last night. I love the weekends here.
Well since I'm not a toning expert and can't add anything of value there, I just want to respond to our own little caped crusader and give others that are intent on joining him one last piece of legal advice.
<< <i>I really disagree with people like you who show up on these forums, and basically say that none of us ought to say what is right, even if we can prove it is right, because we might get sued. This is the same wimpy posistion the ANA has taken, and now it is to the point where they refuse to take a stand on any of this business (coin doctoring, ACG, etc.) because they don't want to be involved in a lawsuit. >>
First of all, I just didn't show up. I've made over 600 posts in 6 months, granted that doesn't make me one of the most prolific posters or members of this community, but its not as though I haven't been around for awhile.
As for your statement that I think no one should say "what is right" in this hobby, again, I didn't say that. You may say whatever you want. I was merely pointing out to the Board that sometimes your words will cost you. Some are not as experience as you, being so familiar with litigation and may get the idea that the "1st Amendment" will protect them. So I offered so free legal advice, and I get blasted by you for it.
Go on caped crusading against the "Evil" ACG and its owner, make yourself a lightning rod with no insulation. Or you can be careful, watch what you say, walk a fine line and stay out of litigation and still get your message out. There's more then 2 ways to skin a cat. A lawyer will merely tell you how to do it without getting blood on your hands.
Now back to our previous scheduled program --- "The Lynching of AT Swimmer"
<< <i>Who is howardw007@aol.com? He should be sued......... >>
Cointoast- E-mail address howardw007@aol.com is that of Dragon. If you go to one of Dragon's posts and click on the eyeglass icon, it will open up a window with his contact information, including his e-mail address.
Frattlaw is correct. The practice of contacting an auction's bidders is serious and the interference should not be taken lightly. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ebay help Alan Swimmer, financially, with such a situation. This practice is intolerable to Ebay's business practice. Dragon, and perhaps others, has definitely crapped in his messkit.
<< <i>Wow! All this since I went to dinner last night. I love the weekends here.
Well since I'm not a toning expert and can't add anything of value there, I just want to respond to our own little caped crusader and give others that are intent on joining him one last piece of legal advice.
<< <i>I really disagree with people like you who show up on these forums, and basically say that none of us ought to say what is right, even if we can prove it is right, because we might get sued. This is the same wimpy posistion the ANA has taken, and now it is to the point where they refuse to take a stand on any of this business (coin doctoring, ACG, etc.) because they don't want to be involved in a lawsuit. >>
First of all, I just didn't show up. I've made over 600 posts in 6 months, granted that doesn't make me one of the most prolific posters or members of this community, but its not as though I haven't been around for awhile.
As for your statement that I think no one should say "what is right" in this hobby, again, I didn't say that. You may say whatever you want. I was merely pointing out to the Board that sometimes your words will cost you. Some are not as experience as you, being so familiar with litigation and may get the idea that the "1st Amendment" will protect them. So I offered so free legal advice, and I get blasted by you for it.
Go on caped crusading against the "Evil" ACG and its owner, make yourself a lightning rod with no insulation. Or you can be careful, watch what you say, walk a fine line and stay out of litigation and still get your message out. There's more then 2 ways to skin a cat. A lawyer will merely tell you how to do it without getting blood on your hands.
Now back to our previous scheduled program --- "The Lynching of AT Swimmer" >>
First of all, your two comments- "caped crusader" and "The Lynching of AT Swimmer" speaks volumes about where you are coming from.
Just for clarification, I have not emailed anyone or contacted any of aswimmers bidders. As I stated earlier in this thread, that would be actionable. The most important fact is I rely on eBay for additional income, and I wouldn't do anything as foolish to risk my account.
As far as "lynching" goes, artificially toned coins are much easier to detect than overgraded or cleaned coins in images. There is no doubt in my mind the vast majority of coins he has sold on eBay in the last few months are artificially toned. Over 26 years, I have handled tens of thousands of Morgan Dollars, and I can tell you that just the 87-O I imaged earlier is unquestionably AT. That isn't a lynching, it is stating the truth.
While I can appreciate your point of view, which is extremely conservative and not wanting to get into litigation, the fact remains that some of us are willing to take the flak to expose unscrupulous dealers in the numismatic community. I happen to be one of those people. As I told you earlier, I am no stranger to the law and litigation, and am willing to deal with any that might come along.
I really don't know what all the continued fuss is about, I am not a bad person and have stopped listing what many are calling AT coins. I agreed to this yesterday and stopped listing 2 days ago. The exception were the 7 that I guaranteed since they are mine, not from the Grandfather collection.
I feel like I have been honest and yes I have learned something here and so all your efforts were not fruitless but I will say that a few of you are just way out of line. There are others who were that way and have come to the middle of the road which is refreshing. But to the ones who have called me names and convicted me without looking at the whole picture, they should let reasojn and not emotion guide their comments. I know I have been involved in things like this where it is way to easy to join in on the Hunt for AT Alan. My god, if I was wrong, don't you think that this is a little overboard. I am a tiny little guy who is not a coin doctor and while you spend all this energy to make me the posterboy there are so many others that are really the doctors and what about the people who get the doctored coins slabbed. I have seen many slabbed toned coins that look to ggo d to be true now that I have been able to see what you people think are AT. Its amazing that after all that I have said here that people are still trying to throw more gas on the fire. What do you want, I have ended the auctions and am still getting threats from members here. Now they are using made up emails and are signing them with meaningless initials . How about we have a burn alan at the stake party where each attendee gets a free assumed AT Morgan with my blood on it? Will that do? Will that end the pain and make some of you happy? What do you want maybe just to continue to get satisfaction from finding pre meditated guilt where there was none. There has to be a better way to feel good even in these trying times post 9/11.
Sincerely,
Alan Swimmer
PS. I wil have a poster out soon of me in my LabCoat and Respirator holding some recently toned Morgans surrounded by bottles, beakers and the Hotplate/oven. Its will cost $5 and comes with a Starter Kit and manual of How to Tone Coins in 5 minutes. S& H is $7.95. I also have a video on the subject. Its $17.95 and is also available on DVD which has an interactive section where you can tone your own coins on the PC and see how they will look. The book should be out soon as well. Its title is "15 minutes of fame by forum flame" . The movie rights are available.
Don't you get it. I am a collector not a sleezy seller. I am not going to sue anyone. That is not me, so please remember that I am not in a adversive relationship here. Why must some of you try to make me look like I am on the other side of the fence when I am not. My emails to Howard were threats that could happen but I see no need to even go there. Lets not act like North Korea and the US with thee war of words. .
I will add that this has been the most lively forum and even the negative comments have been at least entertaining. As hard as I try to end it , the more it gains a life of its own. Who is this Alan guy. LOL
<< <i>I wil have a poster out soon of me in my LabCoat and Respirator holding some recently toned Morgans surrounded by bottles, beakers and the Hotplate/oven. >>
LOL. I like your sense of humor Alan. How about posting both coins for us. That would help a lot. And maybe you could also explain why the image in the "Ended" auction was altered after the fact. Thanks.
I did not alter anything in any picture at any time. If there was an alteration then it was not done by me or anyone I know. How can I put the two coins side by side if I dont have one as it sold.
At this point, I find Mr. Swimmer quite humorous. I think that white lab coat may be put on a little differently, and drawn a little tighter next time.
These are the coins I'm talking about. You don't have both? Which one did you sell? Or are they the same coin? And I see the photo is now removed from your cancelled auction.
I'm hoping that Legend is reading this thread. I think we've found the "investigative arm" of the proposed "new service".
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
Thanks MrLee.. look at that.. he even edited out the crease in Liberty's neck! If he was honest, why would he manipulate a scan and replace it? Tells you all about the "integrity" of Mr. Swimmer!
<< <i>How about we have a burn alan at the stake party where each attendee gets a free assumed AT Morgan with my blood on it? Will that do? Will that end the pain and make some of you happy? >>
Hey, good idea!!!! I like it when one decides one's own fate. And I'll take my AT Morgan in red please. I'm sure you have one, or could make one. I would love to have one to see how fast the color washes off.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
aswimmer - interesting that you now claim you "sold" one of the "two" coins. Give me an auction number so we can check the ebay search feature and identify just who you "sold" the coin to. And don't tell us you sold the toned one since you just cancelled the auction on that one yesterday and have promised all over these boards that you are going to send it in to PCGS or NGC for grading.
Did any of you actually see the picture that you say wasaltered on ebay? Or are you looking ot pictures someone else downloaded? Now why and the heck would I edit the picture? WHy would I do that, when that would only crucify me even more? In 6500 auctions in 4.5 years not one person has ever accused me of altering a photo, I never have done it . You folks are fanatics and it would seem to me that so much so that someone might be so devious as to alter the picture to frame me. After all you are all competing to see who can get the best information or evidence like little kids. Just look at your posts, stand back and look, its really sad. Your acting like school kids who are competing for who has the best show and tell. All looking for each others pat on the back . Why else would you go on and on and on and make snide little comments and snipes, its really a pathetic scene. A bunch of pompous, snobs who think they know everything and their little club is always in the right and all in the name of protecting the hobby. What a bunch o hog wash. You do it because it makes you feel superior and worthwhile. You do it to impress other members with your mental prowness and wit. You do it maybe becasue you have a life that does not hold other things that are happy and fullfilling. People who are not complete and fulfilled in their life resort to such fanatical behavior. I have been a member of such a group, I was 18 when I joined, it was called a Greek Fraternity and it was just like you folks, elitist, snobish, know it alls, who in a moment could whip up the mob like mentality in order to attack as a group anybody different or just whoever was at the right place at the right time. If this is not a picture of this group I really don't know what is. The difference between me and you is I graduated and left the Fraternity when I was 21, what is your excuse?
Mista Senataw (ASwimmer) can you tell me why that hot plate was purchased? You mentioned it was faw y'aw daw-ter but, please, if you will Mista Senataw, why would you endanger the life of y'aw daw-ter with a hot plate that's tempera-chaw range is Three hundred to seven hundred degrees...again, if you will Mista Sena-taw?
What were you planning with those chemi-cawls? It seems to me that it is an explosive mix, would you agree Mista Sena-taw? It appears as though DNA is being done on Miss Maw-gan's dress. Do you still swear under oath that y'aw innocient? Testing can be done so there is no doubt. DID YOU HAVE SEXU-WALL RELATIONS WITH THAT MAW-GAN?
Y'aw honor, I'm not getting answers from this witness, permission to treat as a hostile witness?
More than one person compared those pictures, Mista Swimma. Are you going to sit there and deny the allegations? Answer me Mista Swimma! More than one person downloaded them onto their comput-ah, and our experts have found out that those pictures have been forged.
How about producing those two Maw-gan's?
If it pleases the court, Mista Swimma is not answering the questions. I say we forgo the trial and right to the prosecution. I think it's a horrible shame how many Maw-Gan's are being ruined.
<<<Did any of you actually see the picture that you say was altered on ebay?>>>
Yes, I did. And I have saved the auction page and both sets of images. You clearly manipulated the second image after your auction was discussed here.
<<<Or are you looking ot pictures someone else downloaded?>>>
You're a slick one Mr. Swimmer, you think you have an answer for everything, don't you?
<<<Now why and the heck would I edit the picture? WHy would I do that, when that would only crucify me even more?>>>
You did it to try to cover your tracks, and claim the "toned" coin wasn't the same as the white coin you bought. When you got caught, you were crucified, and with good reason.
<<<In 6500 auctions in 4.5 years not one person has ever accused me of altering a photo, I never have done it . >>>
You are a liar Mr. Swimmer. You altered an image and switched it in an ongoing auction. Not many buyers on eBay are good at detecting digitally enchanced photos, but there certainly are many here that are capable of doing so.
Alan- I want to believe you. I hate to think someone would lie....but you are in too deep now. You sure are a good story teller. Unfortunately....there are some people on this forum who know the difference between fiction and non-fiction. You know which one you are spewing forth! This whole thing makes me want to throw up!!
And swimmer........you aren't swimming so good right now! (you need flipper...you know...the dolphin)
Russ- I think his "shoes" are made of lead. He seems to be sinking........only....the more he posts on this thread......the heavier those shoes are getting.
<< <i>Alan- I want to believe you. I hate to think someone would lie....but you are in too deep now. You sure are a good story teller. Unfortunately....there are some people on this forum who know the difference between fiction and non-fiction. You know which one you are spewing forth! This whole thing makes me want to throw up!!
And swimmer........you aren't swimming so good right now! (you need flipper...you know...the dolphin)
Russ- I think his "shoes" are made of lead. He seems to be sinking........only....the more he posts on this thread......the heavier those shoes are getting.[/q heh...reminds me of DCHUMPUNTMEO burying himself in guise easily made out...
I've been burned a few times by sleazy eBay sellers and unscrupulous coin dealers selling overgraded, whizzed and cleaned junk, but Alan isn't one of them. The three Barber halves I bought from him were completely as described, original, properly graded and uncleaned (but not colorfully toned). Having said that -- for what it's worth -- I would admit being unwilling to buy raw coins with unusual toning from anyone without a lot more study of what's AT and what's not.
Comments
Some members here offered a very reasonable suggestion to you that might help resolve this issue. Send your toned coins in for slabbing from one of the 3 major services [myself i would use p.c.g.s.] for the less expensive pieces you could use economy service. For more expensive pieces the regular 25.00 service might make those coins more sellable to buyers if the origen of the toning is in doubt.
Accusing someone of being a coin doctor with only the belief that he has AT coins for sale is wrong unless you have proof not only that his coins are AT but that the person in question participated in the docktoring and was knowingly and willfully defrauding his customers.
Mr. Swimmer, the idea of sending the coins in for slabbing to end this controversy seems like a real good compromise solution to me, what do you think ? barberlover
<< <i>Thanks for that lovely post Ms. Swimmer. >>
I have never met the gentlemen, I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about him. My commnets were a personal observation on human behavior, and on the nature and tone of some posts that appeared here.
I apologize for my reference to "men". For a moment I ceased to be politically correct (PC), for which I am sorry. I sincerely hope any bruised egos heal quickly, but I'm sure they will, the men here are strong men, good men. I will strive to be 100% PC in any future posts. Feel free to throw your largest stones should any PC transgression occur again.
I thought I made every effort in my post not to appear to attack any individual personally, and I apologize to anyone who thought otherewise.
However, IMO, the Inquisition is alive and very healthy. The zealots are ranting and raving, guilty and innocent will both be put to the torch in the name of vigilante justice, those with opposing views must be silenced with insults and name calling (personal attacks), and the world will be cleansed and preserved. Praise be to God, for the self-righteous have awaken from their slumber and taken action. If a few, or a few hundred, or a few thousand, or a few million or ... are maimed and killed as collatoral damage (reputations destroyed), well, it must be OK, for RIGHT has been served.
<< <i>Signed, Alan Swimmer Lafayette, CA 22 miles west of San Francisco
I don't know sqwat about toned/untoned coins and don't really want to get into this argument.
I did want to way that ASwimmer must really be swimming if he is 22 miles WEST of San Francisco. That sounds like the Faralon Islands to me.
Back to your regular programming.
BarberLover,
That sounds like a fine idea so please call off the members here that are bidding on the coins just so they can get what they call the evidence or somehow use the win to give me a negative or possibly pay then reverse the charges. these are all ideas that have been floating around on various threads here. Conspiring to gang up and hurt someones business or reputation is not good. Now, I don't mean allot of people here are part of this, perhaps 10 people or so that had their warpaint on.
Alan Swimmer
<< <i>the Inquisition is alive and very healthy. >>
Week in and week out it never ceases to amaze me that the intellect of this board decides to go "mental" for the sake of arguing, and invariably someone gets hurt. Let's review the facts:
1. The coins in question are not toned correctly. I'll go it further than GSAGUY's magnanimus description, and basically say they are garbage.
2. Whether aswimmer knew or did not know about their origin is immaterial to this argument. He's selling them and he should not be - WHY? Because someone is going to be taken advantage of and that's the source of our collective ire. Just as he mentions that HE was taken advantage of early on his purchases, he's perpetuating this sickening cycle and we wish to put a stop to it, but lord knows we can't - and if you don't believe me, write a letter to HSN or The Shopping Network and buy some coins.
3. We, in this forum, should be savvy enough about the hobby to be able to agree that when coins are fake, AT'd, or whatever, we should be able to point them out, point out the discrepancies and call for their removal from sale. However, to start calling people names and to drag ancestors into arguments just brings us down to these seller's level.
Aswimmer, whatever your excuse for selling these coins is, you're the one that has to live with your concience. Look back at the rotten feeling you had when you found out that your dollar was a fake and how foolish you felt for having spent your hard earned money on a bogus coin and decide what you want to do with the rest of your coins. I'm not going to sit here and praise or tear down your customer service philosophies or your moral integrity. But I am going to tell you that an opinion on your coins has been rendered by very knowledgeable folks in this hobby, and that opinion is that your coins are not what they seem to be. If you want to take advantage of unknowing collectors, we will continue to wave the red flag and warn everyone and anyone who comes near those coins.
If I were you I'd do the honorable thing. Remove your auctions, get these coins certified, and if in fact they are genuine, bring them back for sale and I'm sure we'll all be eating crow in here - but to be honest, I don't think that's going to happen. You mention CAVEAT EMPTOR in your postings, well, here's another CAVEAT - keep putting these coins up, and we'll keep tearing them down.
As for the forum members - PEOPLE!!! QUIT BEING SO DAMNED ARGUMENTATIVE AND JUST GET DOWN TO THE FACTS! Once you're there, there's no arguing about it!
Frank
<< <i>PEOPLE!!! QUIT BEING SO DAMNED ARGUMENTATIVE AND JUST GET DOWN TO THE FACTS! >>
Oh Yeah? My dad can beat up your dad!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Anyway, as far as the toning goes, I'm pretty sure that the coin KAZ is showing is AT even with the limited knowledge I have of toned coins. The colors going around the letters and numbers instead of flowing over them are a dead give away for AT from what I have been told. But alas, I will defer to those with more experience than I.
The one thing that I do have experience with that makes no sense to me, is Alan's claim that the oven and hotplate are for his daughter to heat up leftovers in a college dorm. (I know it's petty for me to pick on such things, but when one element appears to be untruthful, it casts doubts on the rest of the story.) Why would someone spent over a hundred dollars plus shipping on two pieces of industrial equipment when microwave ovens can be purchased at any Walmart for less than $50??? Granted, it has been 13 years since I lived in a college dorm, but even then, everyone had microwave ovens. No one had idustrial thermol ovens! Maybe the college chemistry professor in the other thread (I forgot his name) can enlighten us as to what today's college kids are doing to re-heat their Domino's leftovers!
OK, that's it. I'm done. Good luck all with the rest of the debate, and please don't take any of this too seriously!
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
Mr. Swimmer, I think sending the coins to a leading service (such as PCGS, NGC, and ANACS) is an excellent idea. At least for a few of the coins. We've all had our learning experiences when it comes to toning. Another idea for everyone here is to purchase/view the "How to detect artificial toning" video by Bob Campbell. You can buy it from the ANA (www.money.org, go to the moneymarket catalog) and sometimes catch it in the lineup of www.cointelevision.com.
If everyone views this video and takes a look at some market acceptible toned coins in holders, I think everyone will be better equipped to see what is chemically induced and what is air transferred.
Neil
Well since I'm not a toning expert and can't add anything of value there, I just want to respond to our own little caped crusader and give others that are intent on joining him one last piece of legal advice.
<< <i>I really disagree with people like you who show up on these forums, and basically say that none of us ought to say what is right, even if we can prove it is right, because we might get sued. This is the same wimpy posistion the ANA has taken, and now it is to the point where they refuse to take a stand on any of this business (coin doctoring, ACG, etc.) because they don't want to be involved in a lawsuit. >>
First of all, I just didn't show up. I've made over 600 posts in 6 months, granted that doesn't make me one of the most prolific posters or members of this community, but its not as though I haven't been around for awhile.
As for your statement that I think no one should say "what is right" in this hobby, again, I didn't say that. You may say whatever you want. I was merely pointing out to the Board that sometimes your words will cost you. Some are not as experience as you, being so familiar with litigation and may get the idea that the "1st Amendment" will protect them. So I offered so free legal advice, and I get blasted by you for it.
Go on caped crusading against the "Evil" ACG and its owner, make yourself a lightning rod with no insulation. Or you can be careful, watch what you say, walk a fine line and stay out of litigation and still get your message out. There's more then 2 ways to skin a cat. A lawyer will merely tell you how to do it without getting blood on your hands.
Now back to our previous scheduled program --- "The Lynching of AT Swimmer"
Thanks
Michael
<< <i>Who is howardw007@aol.com? He should be sued......... >>
Cointoast- E-mail address howardw007@aol.com is that of Dragon. If you go to one of Dragon's posts and click on the eyeglass icon, it will open up a window with his contact information, including his e-mail address.
Frattlaw is correct. The practice of contacting an auction's bidders is serious and the interference should not be taken lightly. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ebay help Alan Swimmer, financially, with such a situation. This practice is intolerable to Ebay's business practice. Dragon, and perhaps others, has definitely crapped in his messkit.
Nobody expects the PCGS Inquisition
<< <i>Wow! All this since I went to dinner last night. I love the weekends here.
Well since I'm not a toning expert and can't add anything of value there, I just want to respond to our own little caped crusader and give others that are intent on joining him one last piece of legal advice.
<< <i>I really disagree with people like you who show up on these forums, and basically say that none of us ought to say what is right, even if we can prove it is right, because we might get sued. This is the same wimpy posistion the ANA has taken, and now it is to the point where they refuse to take a stand on any of this business (coin doctoring, ACG, etc.) because they don't want to be involved in a lawsuit. >>
First of all, I just didn't show up. I've made over 600 posts in 6 months, granted that doesn't make me one of the most prolific posters or members of this community, but its not as though I haven't been around for awhile.
As for your statement that I think no one should say "what is right" in this hobby, again, I didn't say that. You may say whatever you want. I was merely pointing out to the Board that sometimes your words will cost you. Some are not as experience as you, being so familiar with litigation and may get the idea that the "1st Amendment" will protect them. So I offered so free legal advice, and I get blasted by you for it.
Go on caped crusading against the "Evil" ACG and its owner, make yourself a lightning rod with no insulation. Or you can be careful, watch what you say, walk a fine line and stay out of litigation and still get your message out. There's more then 2 ways to skin a cat. A lawyer will merely tell you how to do it without getting blood on your hands.
Now back to our previous scheduled program --- "The Lynching of AT Swimmer" >>
First of all, your two comments- "caped crusader" and "The Lynching of AT Swimmer" speaks volumes about where you are coming from.
Just for clarification, I have not emailed anyone or contacted any of aswimmers bidders. As I stated earlier in this thread, that would be actionable. The most important fact is I rely on eBay for additional income, and I wouldn't do anything as foolish to risk my account.
As far as "lynching" goes, artificially toned coins are much easier to detect than overgraded or cleaned coins in images. There is no doubt in my mind the vast majority of coins he has sold on eBay in the last few months are artificially toned. Over 26 years, I have handled tens of thousands of Morgan Dollars, and I can tell you that just the 87-O I imaged earlier is unquestionably AT. That isn't a lynching, it is stating the truth.
While I can appreciate your point of view, which is extremely conservative and not wanting to get into litigation, the fact remains that some of us are willing to take the flak to expose unscrupulous dealers in the numismatic community. I happen to be one of those people. As I told you earlier, I am no stranger to the law and litigation, and am willing to deal with any that might come along.
I really don't know what all the continued fuss is about, I am not a bad person and have stopped listing what many are calling AT coins. I agreed to this yesterday and stopped listing 2 days ago. The exception were the 7 that I guaranteed since they are mine, not from the Grandfather collection.
I feel like I have been honest and yes I have learned something here and so all your efforts were not fruitless but I will say that a few of you are just way out of line. There are others who were that way and have come to the middle of the road which is refreshing. But to the ones who have called me names and convicted me without looking at the whole picture, they should let reasojn and not emotion guide their comments. I know I have been involved in things like this where it is way to easy to join in on the Hunt for AT Alan. My god, if I was wrong, don't you think that this is a little overboard. I am a tiny little guy who is not a coin doctor and while you spend all this energy to make me the posterboy there are so many others that are really the doctors and what about the people who get the doctored coins slabbed. I have seen many slabbed toned coins that look to ggo d to be true now that I have been able to see what you people think are AT. Its amazing that after all that I have said here that people are still trying to throw more gas on the fire. What do you want, I have ended the auctions and am still getting threats from members here. Now they are using made up emails and are signing them with meaningless initials . How about we have a burn alan at the stake party where each attendee gets a free assumed AT Morgan with my blood on it? Will that do? Will that end the pain and make some of you happy? What do you want maybe just to continue to get satisfaction from finding pre meditated guilt where there was none. There has to be a better way to feel good even in these trying times post 9/11.
Sincerely,
Alan Swimmer
PS. I wil have a poster out soon of me in my LabCoat and Respirator holding some recently toned Morgans surrounded by bottles, beakers and the Hotplate/oven. Its will cost $5 and comes with a Starter Kit and manual of How to Tone Coins in 5 minutes. S& H is $7.95. I also have a video on the subject. Its $17.95 and is also available on DVD which has an interactive section where you can tone your own coins on the PC and see how they will look. The book should be out soon as well. Its title is "15 minutes of fame by forum flame" . The movie rights are available.
-------------------------
Alan Swimmer
Don't you get it. I am a collector not a sleezy seller. I am not going to sue anyone. That is not me, so please remember that I am not in a adversive relationship here. Why must some of you try to make me look like I am on the other side of the fence when I am not. My emails to Howard were threats that could happen but I see no need to even go there. Lets not act like North Korea and the US with thee war of words. .
Alan
I will add that this has been the most lively forum and even the negative comments have been at least entertaining. As hard as I try to end it , the more it gains a life of its own. Who is this Alan guy. LOL
GSAGUY
<< <i>I wil have a poster out soon of me in my LabCoat and Respirator holding some recently toned Morgans surrounded by bottles, beakers and the Hotplate/oven. >>
LOL. I like your sense of humor Alan. How about posting both coins for us. That would help a lot. And maybe you could also explain why the image in the "Ended" auction was altered after the fact. Thanks.
I did not alter anything in any picture at any time. If there was an alteration then it was not done by me or anyone I know. How can I put the two coins side by side if I dont have one as it sold.
Alan
What do you mean acting big. Who the heck is acting big? I am just a guy. What are you referring to.
Alan
GSAGUY
This is the coin you recently purchased on eBay.
These are the coins I'm talking about. You don't have both? Which one did you sell? Or are they the same coin? And I see the photo is now removed from your cancelled auction.
Here's the doctored scan.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>How about we have a burn alan at the stake party where each attendee gets a free assumed AT Morgan with my blood on it? Will that do? Will that end the pain and make some of you happy? >>
Hey, good idea!!!! I like it when one decides one's own fate. And I'll take my AT Morgan in red please. I'm sure you have one, or could make one. I would love to have one to see how fast the color washes off.
jom
Did any of you actually see the picture that you say wasaltered on ebay? Or are you looking ot pictures someone else downloaded? Now why and the heck would I edit the picture? WHy would I do that, when that would only crucify me even more? In 6500 auctions in 4.5 years not one person has ever accused me of altering a photo, I never have done it . You folks are fanatics and it would seem to me that so much so that someone might be so devious as to alter the picture to frame me. After all you are all competing to see who can get the best information or evidence like little kids. Just look at your posts, stand back and look, its really sad. Your acting like school kids who are competing for who has the best show and tell. All looking for each others pat on the back . Why else would you go on and on and on and make snide little comments and snipes, its really a pathetic scene. A bunch of pompous, snobs who think they know everything and their little club is always in the right and all in the name of protecting the hobby. What a bunch o hog wash. You do it because it makes you feel superior and worthwhile. You do it to impress other members with your mental prowness and wit. You do it maybe becasue you have a life that does not hold other things that are happy and fullfilling. People who are not complete and fulfilled in their life resort to such fanatical behavior. I have been a member of such a group, I was 18 when I joined, it was called a Greek Fraternity and it was just like you folks, elitist, snobish, know it alls, who in a moment could whip up the mob like mentality in order to attack as a group anybody different or just whoever was at the right place at the right time. If this is not a picture of this group I really don't know what is. The difference between me and you is I graduated and left the Fraternity when I was 21, what is your excuse?
GSAGUY
<< <i>it would seem to me that so much so that someone might be so devious as to alter the picture to frame me. >>
Aswimmer,
What kind of shoes do you wear?
Russ, NCNE
Brian.
What were you planning with those chemi-cawls? It seems to me that it is an explosive mix, would you agree Mista Sena-taw? It appears as though DNA is being done on Miss Maw-gan's dress. Do you still swear under oath that y'aw innocient? Testing can be done so there is no doubt. DID YOU HAVE SEXU-WALL RELATIONS WITH THAT MAW-GAN?
Y'aw honor, I'm not getting answers from this witness, permission to treat as a hostile witness?
More than one person compared those pictures, Mista Swimma. Are you going to sit there and deny the allegations? Answer me Mista Swimma! More than one person downloaded them onto their comput-ah, and our experts have found out that those pictures have been forged.
How about producing those two Maw-gan's?
If it pleases the court, Mista Swimma is not answering the questions. I say we forgo the trial and right to the prosecution. I think it's a horrible shame how many Maw-Gan's are being ruined.
...errr Just for fun guys.
-Dave
Yes, I did. And I have saved the auction page and both sets of images. You clearly manipulated the second image after your auction was discussed here.
<<<Or are you looking ot pictures someone else downloaded?>>>
You're a slick one Mr. Swimmer, you think you have an answer for everything, don't you?
<<<Now why and the heck would I edit the picture? WHy would I do that, when that would only crucify me even more?>>>
You did it to try to cover your tracks, and claim the "toned" coin wasn't the same as the white coin you bought. When you got caught, you were crucified, and with good reason.
<<<In 6500 auctions in 4.5 years not one person has ever accused me of altering a photo, I never have done it . >>>
You are a liar Mr. Swimmer. You altered an image and switched it in an ongoing auction. Not many buyers on eBay are good at detecting digitally enchanced photos, but there certainly are many here that are capable of doing so.
How much further are you going to dig that hole?
And swimmer........you aren't swimming so good right now! (you need flipper...you know...the dolphin)
Russ- I think his "shoes" are made of lead. He seems to be sinking........only....the more he posts on this thread......the heavier those shoes are getting.
<< <i>Alan- I want to believe you. I hate to think someone would lie....but you are in too deep now. You sure are a good story teller. Unfortunately....there are some people on this forum who know the difference between fiction and non-fiction. You know which one you are spewing forth! This whole thing makes me want to throw up!!
And swimmer........you aren't swimming so good right now! (you need flipper...you know...the dolphin)
Russ- I think his "shoes" are made of lead. He seems to be sinking........only....the more he posts on this thread......the heavier those shoes are getting.[/q
heh...reminds me of DCHUMPUNTMEO burying himself in guise easily made out...
Chuck