You may be correct, but on the other hand, when you are issued a "Cease and Decist(sp?)" decry, I think it is wise to stop what ever you are doing, and clean up whatever you can. If there were to ever be a case, the very fact that you tried to stop when the other party asked you to may win some points in your favor, but I don't know about the legal points.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
Let me retrieve my emails that will show that he has been the attacker. HERE IS THE TRUTH
EMAIL #1 to me
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:04 PM Subject: Question for seller -- Item #3007725054
> Both myself and over 30 other people are reporting you to Ebay as the 2 bit fraud that you are for selling these artificially toned junk coins and cheating otherwise unsuspecting newbies with your crap. If I were you, I would end all of your home cooked artificial toned coin auctions early and stop listing this crap on Ebay. The scam is about to end pal. > -------------------- > > > Question from: hhh007 > Title of item: 1884-o Toned Morgan A Hot looking BU Coin > Seller: aswimmer > Starts: Feb-11-03 19:33:12 PST > Ends: Feb-14-03 19:33:12 PST > Price: Currently $46.00 > To view the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3007725054 >>
MY RESPONSE to Howard
Why are you so rude. I don't like being accused of something that is not true. You certainly must be sitting next to god being that you know all.
Regards,
Alan
MY 2nd REPSONSE
You really have allot of nerve accusing me of something and telling me that a gang of people are conspiring to hurt my business. I don't think it is right of you to say these things and tell me that I am a fraudulent seller. I have been a fine upstanding seller for almost 5 years on Ebay and have sold allot of products and have all happy customers. What is your problem. I am 44 year old ex Computer Exec with a family and an education, work and credit history that are impeccable. Who are you?
Regards,
Alan
HOWARDS RESPONSE
From: <HowardW007@aol.com> To: ""Alan Swimmer"" <aswimmer@speakeasy.net> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #3007725054
> Look Alan, stop pushing your home cooked AT crap on Ebay to unsuspecting newbies. I don't have to be next to G-d to see that you are an obvious cheap fraud, and I and others are going to report you for the con man that you are to Ebay Safe Harbor.
MY RESPONSE #3
Howard,
If there is a specific law or rule I am breaking then I would correct it asap, otherwise please stop falsely accusing me of something that is just not true. I really resent it and its an insult which I would be really mad if it was true, but its not so I must assume you either have a chip on your shoulder, or are short or always wanted to be a police officer and are not. I just don't get it, with all that is going on in the world today you have to call me names and make threats.
Regards,
Alan
HOWARDS RESPONSE
From: <HowardW007@aol.com> To: ""Alan Swimmer"" <aswimmer@speakeasy.net> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #3007725054
> Tell it to Ebay safe harbor. You know EXACTLY what you're selling and are a 2 bit fraud.
MY RESPONSE
You have just made a big mistake. Breaking the law and ebay rules regarding transaction interference and economic terrorism via slander are serious. Whereas I have broken no laws or rules of any kind you now have and if you do not immediately cease and desist this emailing campaign then you will suffer the consequences of your actions in ways that you have never dreamed of.. Think I am bluffing then keep breaking the law and try me. With no cost legal representation at my disposal the process will bury you in legal costs.
Regards,
Alan
HOWARDS RESPONSE Save it Alan, YOU are the one ripping people off on Ebay with your artificial home cooked crap, not me, YOU are the one lying to, misrepresenting, and cheating unsuspecting collectors on Ebay, not me. At least everyone at the PCGS forums now knows you for the fraud that you are
My LAST REPONSE
Don't you get it, you are in serious trouble. I have not broken any laws. Stop it or you will suffer the the result of the most immense campaign you have ever seen. Trust me, please don't bring this on yourself.
Regards,
Alan
THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS IN BLACK AND WHITE, HOWARD AT HIS BEST UNEDITED SELF!
He is one of the main instigators of this Hate Alan campaign and I finally had to come here and defend myself and am glad that there are those who seek truth as the facts speak and not rely on the mob mentality that always is to hasty in its rush to convict the innocent .
<< <i>Pat, You may be correct, but on the other hand, when you are issued a "Cease and Decist(sp?)" decry, I think it is wise to stop what ever you are doing, and clean up whatever you can. If there were to ever be a case, the very fact that you tried to stop when the other party asked you to may win some points in your favor, but I don't know about the legal points. JJacks >>
The "crime" isn't coming here and telling us what he did- it may simply be in the act itself. Editing out the 'telling' doesn't change his accountability in the 'doing'.
Thanks for posting all that information here. I am not trying to make any judgements myself. This will be my last post on this thread, but I will continue to watch and see what comes up here in the future.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
<< <i>He is one of the main instigators of this Hate Alan campaign and I finally had to come here and defend myself and am glad that there are those who seek truth as the facts speak and not rely on the mob mentality that always is to hasty in its rush to convict the innocent . Alan >>
Alan- the heat's really not off of you- only deflected, momentarily while we debated the issue of the warning emails.
Bottom Line: Something isn't right about your coins. You know it. You know that we know it. The methodology of a respected Member here notwithstanding, what you are doing is morally and ethically (if not legally) wrong. Do the right thing. Stop your auctions and stop producing and selling AT coins.
(PS: Yesterday's "follow the yellow brick road" introduction didn't help to bolster your case.)
I forget why I said the yellow brick road thing, oh it was becasue someone mentioned Wizard. And oyu know that when I logged in I was told to leave and I had no friends here. I have bought and sold from many on this forum and nothing but happy customers as TonerLover testified. These pretty Morgan have been sold on Ebay by me since July of last year without one mention of any of this. I try to wrap it up with a big group in a row and hell comes crashing down on me. As I grew more upset and began to think about moving to a Moslem country and joining the Akaida out of frustration with the system I then saw the light of rational voices and made the reverse decision just as all the legal threads were in full gear.
Yes I am sorry about that, I was not really putting them down as much as trying to account for Howards behavior , in albeit an imature, politically incorrect way, I was searching for answers.
The toned Morgan dollars of yours that I've seen offered on ebay are artificially toned. My opinion is seconded by a number of forum members who have also handled a toned coin or two. And I would suspect that the major grading services, PCGS, NGC, and ANACS would all agree with us.
I have no idea where your coins originated, or where the toning originated. But I do know where they're being offered for sale on ebay.
And if as other forum members have stated (and I have no reason not to believe them) you have defended these coins as 'original' or 'naturally toned' or 'genuine', then I believe that you either have no idea of what you speak, or you're trying to mislead buyers. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you don't know original toning when you see it. And that's okay, it takes time to feel comfortable identifying AT'd coins.
However, in my opinion, if you don't really know the difference between an artificially toned piece and a naturally toned piece, you should say so when asked a question by someone who may just be interested in bidding on your coins. For all you knew, those forum members who wrote and asked about the color qualities of your coins could have been potential bidders. Again, that comment is based on the posts of other forum members who claim they have communicated with you.
Now, let me also say this. When one owns a coin, I believe one is free to do whatever he wishes with it. However, if one knowingly alters the coin, or handles a coin that he knows to be altered, and then offers the coin for sale as something that it's not so that he can profit at another's expense, one has commited fraud in my opinion.
The coin market is currently battling numerous altered coins (not just artifically toned ones) and because the market has been 'hot', many new collectors are entering the market. Unfortunately, there are those out there who through deceipt and greed hope to profit from, and take advantage of these new collectors.
Many forum members (including me) have gotten totally frustrated by what we see going on in the market and the apparent lack of control or will on the part of ebay and some major coin dealers to even attempt to put a stop to what we see as fraud being commited on a daily basis.
In my opinion, if a seller wishes to sell an artificially toned coin, or one where he's doubtful of the origin of the toning, the honest thing to do is to state in his auction that the coin is either artifically toned or that the origin of its color is doubtful. If such a seller did this, he'd probably never hear from this forum.
Mr Swimmer, the reason most of your customers are happy is because only unknowledgable buyers would bid on your AT coins. Let me ask you specifically about one such coin that just closed on eBay, this one:
Please respond and try to explain how this toning occured naturally. I would be most interested in your explanation.
This has been a very enlightening and disturbing discussion. I'm truly amazed at how easy it is for people (mostly men) to jump to judgement and condemn others. This thread would be a good lesson to my children on how easy it was to hold witch trials and burn people alive based on nothing but prejudice, opinion, conceit and, if you will please excuse me, vain self-righteousness.
So quick to pass judgement, so quick to condemn - no wonder there are so many innocent women and childern being put under the gun in this sad world for apparently nothing more than male ego and the desire to play at being junior policemen - acting like the Gestapo!
Where is the solid proof, the convincing evidence? What is the crime? Who has producted creditable scientific evidence that felonies or even misdeameanors have been committed? Yes, the apparent rush to judgement relects greatly on how easy it is to establish dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, cast any accusation and justify any behavior in the name of someone's self-proclaimed righteous behavior. In my humble opinion, many of you are acting like religious fanatics - accusing and condeming without even the facade of a fair hearing.
"Judge not least ye be judged." This thread, and many of the recent AT threads on this forum are so full of condemnation, name-calling, hatred and dogmatic proclamations, they appear to this humble soul as a microcosm of what we see in the world, a world full of totalitarian dictatorships and religious fanaticism, full of name calling, hatred, intolerance, disdain for the legal process.
Gentlemen, please, look into your souls - why are you losing your sense of fairplay and becoming vigilantes, witch hunters, self-righteous accusers, grand inquisitors? "Let he who is without guilt cast the first stone."
Dear gentlemen, please go look into your mirrors - and look very long and very deeply.
I'm a nobody here, but although this person came on here and has a story for everything, I'll take a stance here and say I don't believe a word of it. All this talk of this seller in the last few months on here and links to the auctions knocking them. Then he shows up here ( wonder how that happened huh?) and people are going to buy this? And say nice coins and maybe they are natural. In my opinion the coins I've seen in these auctions the last few months ( I don't check ebay that much) are a joke and not natural, original, not even close.
Want to sue me? Have at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
I just posted all the proof that is necessary. Look at the picture in my last post. That coin has been heat treated to create the toning. Pay careful attention to the pattern around E PLURIBUS UNUM. This coin is without question artificially toned. I would like to see Mr. Swimmers explanation for it.
Kgaz, one doesn't even need to pay close attention on coins like that. Just a quick glance tells the whole story. Better be careful, next you might get in trouble for using his Pic.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
To Mr. Swimmer Feel free to let your son have the ammonium sulfate for his chemistry experiments. It is not known to be a fertilizer and certainly not one of cmmercial importance. Small amounts of ammonium sulfate could be easily disposed of as a fertilizer however. Fertilizers produced on a large commercial scale are DAP aka diammonium phosphate and AN aka ammonium nitrate. AN is the only fertilizer made that has potential as an explosive.
I would recommend that you send some of your coins to ANACS for grading and encapsulation or slabbing. If a large percentage are AT then ANACS will surely pick up on it. If most of the coins come back as AT it is not necessarily proof that you toned them, but I think you would want to mention in your auctions that the coins may have been AT'd sometime in their historical past.
Yes, it's quite educational if one goes through the list of auctions run the past 30 days, especially starting at the most recent and working backwards, as I did.
This has been a very enlightening and disturbing discussion. I'm truly amazed at how easy it is for people (mostly men) to jump to judgement and condemn others. This thread would be a good lesson to my children on how easy it was to hold witch trials and burn people alive based on nothing but prejudice, opinion, conceit and, if you will please excuse me, vain self-righteousness. >>
It's funny you mention prejudice and (mostly men) in the same paragraph. Hopefully your not teaching your kids about being prejudice about the opposite sex.
WOW,she would make a fine wife. Certainly supportive. I want to day for the record that I only paid her the minimum wage for her time and not the going rate which is per word. LOL
Just kidding guys
Truthfully, this southern Belle is the concious that was missing the last couple of days here when I was being used as a Bin Laden punching bag.
Tell me about it. Although I collected coins from 1967 to 1976 I did not take it up again until 2001 as I said. What changed after all those years was the slabbing of coins which I was new to and previously unaware of. The fact that I did not practice the buy the book first rule nor did I practice the other rule of buying the coin not the slab. So, you can predict what was about to happen that first 6 months of my re-discovering coin collecting the internet way. First of all, allmy experience ion ebay had been in computers and the coin market was to say the least a lesson in caveat emptor. Shall I go down the list of time I was taken. Give a newbie $125k to spend in 6 months and while I learned quickly, I took all the rides A-Ticket thru E-Ticket. There was the Overgrading Raw Rollercoaster, the blurry photo boat ride, and other common simple rides and then there were the D and E ticket rides that caused some pain. The Giant Counterfeit Coaster posed problems when the 1795 Dollar turned out to be cast in China, moving on then there was the ACG submarine ride that sunk one quickly and left you not knowing which way was up just as in the Poseidon. Several MS-66 Morgans that really were 63's. And finally the anti climatic ride that casused a longer lasting anquish was the Big 3 Mis-Graded Slab Super Missle Ride that looped over and under and every which way and literally sent you away vowing not to take that ride again. Buying a slab only to find it overgraded by NCG is like loosing faith in FedEx or WD-40, two products that we expect to work right everytime. SO what is left of the fragile mental state that I found myself in after 6 months of self abuse, well for months I fell into a mode where I distrusted everything. Even the slightest sense of inpropriety by an ebay seller brought on my qucik to fault finger pointing side. I was paranoid that sellers had pre-meditated the mistakes and that they were not really mistakes to begin with but attempts to defraud me. Then everything changed the day I started to sell coins instead of just buying them. I now saw that what simple little mistake I made in a grade or a description sometimes turned into a federal case depending if the buyer was in that type of shell shocked distrusting mode that I was in before. I now saw both sides of the coin. No pun intended. My response to this was to inact the following things 1) ship fast 2) keep the cusotmer informed as to the progress of his order and 3) to have a very customer oriented return policy. Last fall I even went further and began to send cusomters who thought they were not quite satisfied with the order, extra free items. This was mainly done in reaction to the most difficult grouip of customers I have dealt with which is the Baseball Card buyers. These people are super paranoid and actually believe that sealed foil packs of cards can be gone through and all the key players pulled out. I mean a rumor spreads like wildfire and if a guy only found one Barry Bonds in say 72 packs of cards and he found 3 in 72 packs a month ago then he may complain. Its not all the buyers but more than you would think. Bottom line is that when I look back on it and know that i have over 7000 auctions under my belt with 3 Negatiives which 1 is as a buyer in 1998 and the other two have been recanted by the issurers and Ihave letters and comments in the response fields to prove this. SO, in over 7000 auctions I have NEVER received a NEGATIVE AS A SELLER. DO you even know how hard it is to do that, do you have any idea how much I have bent over backwards to help people. I have so many stories of things I have done to go beyond the limits.
Of the 7000 auctions about half report feedback. Of the 7000 only about 1600 are coin related, the rest are mostly computer related. Only about 750 of the 1500 are coin auctions where I was the seller. So only 10% of my total auctions are where I am selling coins. I have only been doing it about a year now. But computer auctions are even harder to earn good feedback than in the coin market .
That's all folks? Guess now that another member has posted a white coin that you bought, that is now being sold by you as toned, you know you have been caught red handed. You are a disgrace to the numismatic community. I believe in Karma, and believe me Mr. Swimmer, sooner or later Karma is going to catch up with you in a big way.
I will ask this question of you one more time: How do you sleep at night?
Now what is the problem Redhot, have not we been through my buying history. Would you like to see my Purchase Order Journal which has the POs of everything I have bought . I am an ipen book RedHot, what are your suspicions now, that I am shill bidding sheite from Shanghai buying sliders to safely ship to all my super slow satisfied customers. Is that now the theory?
You really are hopeless. I suggest you take a look at the thread entitled "My take on aswimmer".. Proof positive you are a coin doctor and a scoundrel.
I did not tone nor do I know anyone who did. I tell you again that I have no knowelge of the coin being toned by other htan its storage and environment. The only possiblity is that it was toned by my Grandfather which I have nothing to prove one way or the other. I will take a lie detector test to prove my truthfulness. What else do you want. I have offered pictures, documents, inspections as testiment to my side, what else do you want? I am not going to admit to something I did not do. I can't even beleive you know you are right and I am wrong when I have proof to back my side up and you still think I am a coin doctor, bring em on come on over and see what this doctor is not doing.
Mr. Swimmer, one question, doesn't matter where your coins came from or how you got them. Can you honestly say they are original toned coins and you actually think they are real? I think I know the answer but thought I'd ask.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
as far as i knew they were real and would have no reason to think not until all you folks started my 15 minutes of fame, you guys are the experts not me. I have never professed to be an expert having never been much into them before. I thought the 1795 Dolar i had weas real to until I weighed one day 6 months after buying it, it was 5 grams light. How do you know these coins are not real. I am not saying they are for sure but you must be an expert to be so sure. WHich is good.
I drive through Lafayette every day, and if Alan would like me to confirm his collection, I would be more than happy to. I love looking at cool stuff like that.
I'd like to get this straight... Alan says he added "Genuine" to his descriptions after the harrassment from howardw007@aol.com. I studied his auctions (aswimmer's) BEFORE the "Genuine" descriptions were added, and commented that he wasn't selling them as "Genuine" as some had portrayed him to be. I stated that in probablility, the coins were artificially toned, but that I could not say for sure without holding one (which none of you can either, legally). So, assuming the descriptions were in fact added after the harrassment, I'm left with some glaring questions:
1. Is it ILLEGAL to artificially tone a coin, and then attempt to sell it with no specific claim as to it being "Genuine?"
2. Does anyone have a right to interfere in another's commerce based on a PRESUMED presence of fraud? I'm no lawyer, but...shouldn't you have to PROVE the fraud before being allowed to make those claims? And I mean prove it in a legal sense. Delta once sent my luggage to Hawaii, while I was destined for Acapulco. Does that give me a legal, ethical or moral right to now villify Delta Airlines in a public forum as fraudulent and/or criminal? ("They have more planes. They KNOW I wanted my luggage with me, and they scheduled that flight to Hawaii just to "get me?") Incidently, Delta made it right, and for the past 12 years, I have only flown other airlines when Delta was not an option.
3. I own a hot plate AND a bottle of ammonia (used to clean fine optics). Does that make me a "Coin Doctor?"
Before I get profusely trashed, understand that I am NOT condoning selling AT coins as "Genuine," but after my "investigation, it appeared to me that this was NOT the case with aswimmer (not until someone provoked him into adding that description to his auctions). He was selling "Monster toned," "Beautiful," and "Colorful" coins. NOWHERE in the auctions that I perused, did he claim the coins to be genuine. Perhaps there was an insinuation, based on his Grandfather's collection, but it was NOT EXPLICITLY stated.
And yet some felt the right to hang him.
4. Why?
5. What gives YOU the right? Had you bought from him? Did you have irrefutable proof that his coins were "doctored?" Or did the photos simply look "doctored" and that's all you need, (being the ordained Gods of Internet Commerce and Numismatic Science)? Things are RARELY what they appear, and if "truth" were equal to appearance, Alec Baldwin would be President, and George Burns is God.
To Alan Swimmer: I'm a coin collector, not a dealer. I THINK you were probably walking a fine line, but it appears you stayed on your side. In my opinion, a clear statement as to the nature of the toning, and any knowledge you have regarding that, would be above and beyond what is required. Perhaps it would have kept the puritans at bay.
I'm also a Capitalist, a Republican, and a PROUD American who believes in our system of free-enterprise and due process. So I encourage you to pursue any legal remedies which may be afforded you. There is no question that you were damaged here, though it might be difficult to quantify. If you have access to legal services pro bono, this is the time to make a statement. Not all of the people trashing our hobby are coin doctors. Some are merely overzealous, self-righteous, arrogant twits.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
David, it's called mail fraud and all you need to do is check with your local attorney general's office as to what the elements of the crime are. Suffice it to say there in all liklihood exists probable cause and it will be up to a grand jury to decide whether there is a true bill.
North...if he didn't have "Genuine" in the description, is it mail fraud? If he never stated they were "genuine" is it mail fraud? He admitted adding "genuine" AFTER his auctions were interfered with. That was the intent of my post. Did we make him commit fraud because we thought he was commiting fraud?
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
P.S. As for Swimmer, one of his attorney relatives he alluded to ought to remind him that he has the right to remain silent and anything he posts here can and will be used against him in a court of law.
Fair questions and a lot depends on whether an intent to deceive can be proven. As a side note the phony sports collectible scams which the FBI shut down in the past few years included an Ebay Seller who had one of the largest numbers of positive feedback on Ebay.
As pertaining to coins, what is the legal definition of "genuine?" Is this an accepted, quantifiable, legal term with regard to numismatics?
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
That would be true if he had stated that the coins were genuine. But he didn't, not until he reacted to howardw007@aol.com's email attacks. Suppose I have an 1888-S that i offer for sale on eBay. Nowhere do I describe the coin as genuine, but I do have a "full disclosure" statement in my policies. Bidder wins, I ship, he isn't happy, asks about the nature of the tone. I tell him it *could* be AT, but I don't know for sure. That is full discolsure. If I tell him everything I know, I have disclosed fully. Now if I know for a fact it is AT, and lie to him, that's fraud (in my book). In any event, this guy has a fair return policy which if acted upon, would relieve a buyer from any misconception he may have acted upon.
So my point remains that this guy did nothing illegal, and we can't prove he did anything unethical. Whether we like it or not, there is a legitimate market for AT coins. When and what lead us to believe this guy was attempting to defraud? Once he added "genuine" to his descriptions, there might be an argument. Prior to that, I saw nothing. And he has admitted that he did this as a reaction to the criticism e was receiving.
I think what happened here is that several purists saw someone doing something they personally don't condone. They made countless assumptions and accusations, fanned the flames, then carried the torch and lead the masses to go and burn the witch. Only problem is, we don't know for sure if this is the witch or not. But that's ok. Better safe than sorry, I suppose? In the name of "defending our hobby," all is fair, as evidenced by this thread, and the countless others where a dealer is trashed becuase he doesn't do things the way one (usually, sometimes more) individual would like them done.
I see this in Astronomy too. The folks with the $50,000 computer driven scopes look down upon the folks with the old Jason. Its funny to me when you take their computers away, they can't find the moon, much less an invisible nebula. I quickly remind them that the guy who discovered Pluto used a home-made reflector up until his death (it was the only scope he ever personally owned).
Alan has some beautiful coins, whether they're AT or not. If we don't like them, we won't bid on them. But trying to tell him what he is allowed to sell, and simultaneously the rest of us what we're allowed to buy, is presumptious, arrogant, and quite simply, wrong. He has a right to sell them, described appropriately, and we have no right to stop him. As far as I can see, he hasn't broken any laws, and if we're going to start dictating ethics, I don't see how emailing his bidders and trashing his reputation, all based on assumption, is going to help our cause.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Comments
Pat,
You may be correct, but on the other hand, when you are issued a "Cease and Decist(sp?)" decry, I think it is wise to stop what ever you are doing, and clean up whatever you can. If there were to ever be a case, the very fact that you tried to stop when the other party asked you to may win some points in your favor, but I don't know about the legal points.
JJacks
Let me retrieve my emails that will show that he has been the attacker.
HERE IS THE TRUTH
EMAIL #1 to me
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:04 PM
Subject: Question for seller -- Item #3007725054
> Both myself and over 30 other people are reporting you to Ebay as the 2
bit fraud that you are for selling these artificially toned junk coins and
cheating otherwise unsuspecting newbies with your crap. If I were you, I
would end all of your home cooked artificial toned coin auctions early and
stop listing this crap on Ebay. The scam is about to end pal.
> --------------------
>
>
> Question from: hhh007
> Title of item: 1884-o Toned Morgan A Hot looking BU Coin
> Seller: aswimmer
> Starts: Feb-11-03 19:33:12 PST
> Ends: Feb-14-03 19:33:12 PST
> Price: Currently $46.00
> To view the item, go to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3007725054
>>
MY RESPONSE to Howard
Why are you so rude. I don't like being accused of something that is not
true. You certainly must be sitting next to god being that you know all.
Regards,
Alan
MY 2nd REPSONSE
You really have allot of nerve accusing me of something and telling me that
a gang of people are conspiring to hurt my business. I don't think it is
right of you to say these things and tell me that I am a fraudulent seller.
I have been a fine upstanding seller for almost 5 years on Ebay and have
sold allot of products and have all happy customers. What is your problem. I
am 44 year old ex Computer Exec with a family and an education, work and
credit history that are impeccable. Who are you?
Regards,
Alan
HOWARDS RESPONSE
From: <HowardW007@aol.com>
To: ""Alan Swimmer"" <aswimmer@speakeasy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #3007725054
> Look Alan, stop pushing your home cooked AT crap on Ebay to unsuspecting
newbies. I don't have to be next to G-d to see that you are an obvious cheap
fraud, and I and others are going to report you for the con man that you are
to Ebay Safe Harbor.
MY RESPONSE #3
Howard,
If there is a specific law or rule I am breaking then I would correct it
asap, otherwise please stop falsely accusing me of something that is just
not true. I really resent it and its an insult which I would be really mad
if it was true, but its not so I must assume you either have a chip on your
shoulder, or are short or always wanted to be a police officer and are not.
I just don't get it, with all that is going on in the world today you have
to call me names and make threats.
Regards,
Alan
HOWARDS RESPONSE
From: <HowardW007@aol.com>
To: ""Alan Swimmer"" <aswimmer@speakeasy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #3007725054
> Tell it to Ebay safe harbor. You know EXACTLY what you're selling and are
a 2 bit fraud.
MY RESPONSE
You have just made a big mistake. Breaking the law and ebay rules regarding
transaction interference and economic terrorism via slander are serious.
Whereas I have broken no laws or rules of any kind you now have and if you
do not immediately cease and desist this emailing campaign then you will
suffer the consequences of your actions in ways that you have never dreamed
of.. Think I am bluffing then keep breaking the law and try me. With no cost
legal representation at my disposal the process will bury you in legal
costs.
Regards,
Alan
HOWARDS RESPONSE
Save it Alan, YOU are the one ripping people off on Ebay with your artificial home cooked crap, not me, YOU are the one lying to, misrepresenting, and cheating unsuspecting collectors on Ebay, not me. At least everyone at the PCGS forums now knows you for the fraud that you are
My LAST REPONSE
Don't you get it, you are in serious trouble. I have not broken any laws.
Stop it or you will suffer the the result of the most immense campaign you
have ever seen. Trust me, please don't bring this on yourself.
Regards,
Alan
THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS IN BLACK AND WHITE, HOWARD AT HIS BEST UNEDITED SELF!
Alan
<< <i>Pat, You may be correct, but on the other hand, when you are issued a "Cease and Decist(sp?)" decry, I think it is wise to stop what ever you are doing, and clean up whatever you can. If there were to ever be a case, the very fact that you tried to stop when the other party asked you to may win some points in your favor, but I don't know about the legal points. JJacks >>
The "crime" isn't coming here and telling us what he did- it may simply be in the act itself.
Editing out the 'telling' doesn't change his accountability in the 'doing'.
peacockcoins
Alan,
Thanks for posting all that information here. I am not trying to make any judgements myself. This will be my last post on this thread, but I will continue to watch and see what comes up here in the future.
JJacks
<< <i>He is one of the main instigators of this Hate Alan campaign and I finally had to come here and defend myself and am glad that there are those who seek truth as the facts speak and not rely on the mob mentality that always is to hasty in its rush to convict the innocent . Alan >>
Alan- the heat's really not off of you- only deflected, momentarily while we debated the issue of the warning emails.
Bottom Line: Something isn't right about your coins. You know it. You know that we know it.
The methodology of a respected Member here notwithstanding, what you are doing is morally and ethically (if not legally) wrong.
Do the right thing. Stop your auctions and stop producing and selling AT coins.
(PS: Yesterday's "follow the yellow brick road" introduction didn't help to bolster your case.)
peacockcoins
We only saw a select piece of it earlier.
People who put down short people are mean
Dr. Steve
Looking for uncirculated Indian Heads and PRS electric guitars
Did you read my lengthy post.
But you have to admit that I have
I forget why I said the yellow brick road thing, oh it was becasue someone mentioned Wizard. And oyu know that when I logged in I was told to leave and I had no friends here. I have bought and sold from many on this forum and nothing but happy customers as TonerLover testified. These pretty Morgan have been sold on Ebay by me since July of last year without one mention of any of this. I try to wrap it up with a big group in a row and hell comes crashing down on me. As I grew more upset and began to think about moving to a Moslem country and joining the Akaida out of frustration with the system I then saw the light of rational voices and made the reverse decision just as all the legal threads were in full gear.
off the hook, not the issue, I am here arn't I.
Here's my OPINION for what it's worth.
The toned Morgan dollars of yours that I've seen offered on ebay are artificially toned. My opinion is seconded by a number of forum members who have also handled a toned coin or two. And I would suspect that the major grading services, PCGS, NGC, and ANACS would all agree with us.
I have no idea where your coins originated, or where the toning originated. But I do know where they're being offered for sale on ebay.
And if as other forum members have stated (and I have no reason not to believe them) you have defended these coins as 'original' or 'naturally toned' or 'genuine', then I believe that you either have no idea of what you speak, or you're trying to mislead buyers. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you don't know original toning when you see it. And that's okay, it takes time to feel comfortable identifying AT'd coins.
However, in my opinion, if you don't really know the difference between an artificially toned piece and a naturally toned piece, you should say so when asked a question by someone who may just be interested in bidding on your coins. For all you knew, those forum members who wrote and asked about the color qualities of your coins could have been potential bidders. Again, that comment is based on the posts of other forum members who claim they have communicated with you.
Now, let me also say this. When one owns a coin, I believe one is free to do whatever he wishes with it. However, if one knowingly alters the coin, or handles a coin that he knows to be altered, and then offers the coin for sale as something that it's not so that he can profit at another's expense, one has commited fraud in my opinion.
The coin market is currently battling numerous altered coins (not just artifically toned ones) and because the market has been 'hot', many new collectors are entering the market. Unfortunately, there are those out there who through deceipt and greed hope to profit from, and take advantage of these new collectors.
Many forum members (including me) have gotten totally frustrated by what we see going on in the market and the apparent lack of control or will on the part of ebay and some major coin dealers to even attempt to put a stop to what we see as fraud being commited on a daily basis.
In my opinion, if a seller wishes to sell an artificially toned coin, or one where he's doubtful of the origin of the toning, the honest thing to do is to state in his auction that the coin is either artifically toned or that the origin of its color is doubtful. If such a seller did this, he'd probably never hear from this forum.
GSAGUY
Please respond and try to explain how this toning occured naturally. I would be most interested in your explanation.
PLEASEREAD AND REREAD THE ABOVE TWO POSTS GSAGUY AND K6AZ DIRECTLY ABOVE THIS POST!!!!!!!!!!!!
OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sincerely michael
This has been a very enlightening and disturbing discussion. I'm truly amazed at how easy it is for people (mostly men) to jump to judgement and condemn others. This thread would be a good lesson to my children on how easy it was to hold witch trials and burn people alive based on nothing but prejudice, opinion, conceit and, if you will please excuse me, vain self-righteousness.
So quick to pass judgement, so quick to condemn - no wonder there are so many innocent women and childern being put under the gun in this sad world for apparently nothing more than male ego and the desire to play at being junior policemen - acting like the Gestapo!
Where is the solid proof, the convincing evidence? What is the crime? Who has producted creditable scientific evidence that felonies or even misdeameanors have been committed? Yes, the apparent rush to judgement relects greatly on how easy it is to establish dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, cast any accusation and justify any behavior in the name of someone's self-proclaimed righteous behavior. In my humble opinion, many of you are acting like religious fanatics - accusing and condeming without even the facade of a fair hearing.
"Judge not least ye be judged." This thread, and many of the recent AT threads on this forum are so full of condemnation, name-calling, hatred and dogmatic proclamations, they appear to this humble soul as a microcosm of what we see in the world, a world full of totalitarian dictatorships and religious fanaticism, full of name calling, hatred, intolerance, disdain for the legal process.
Gentlemen, please, look into your souls - why are you losing your sense of fairplay and becoming vigilantes, witch hunters, self-righteous accusers, grand inquisitors? "Let he who is without guilt cast the first stone."
Dear gentlemen, please go look into your mirrors - and look very long and very deeply.
GSAGUY
Want to sue me? Have at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>This coin is without question artificially toned. I would like to see Mr. Swimmers explanation for it. >>
Probably needs to check the postcards, to prove it's real
Feel free to let your son have the ammonium sulfate for his chemistry experiments. It is not known to be a fertilizer and certainly not one of cmmercial importance. Small amounts of ammonium sulfate could be easily disposed of as a fertilizer however. Fertilizers produced on a large commercial scale are DAP aka diammonium phosphate and AN aka ammonium nitrate. AN is the only fertilizer made that has potential as an explosive.
I would recommend that you send some of your coins to ANACS for grading and encapsulation or slabbing. If a large percentage are AT then ANACS will surely pick up on it. If most of the coins come back as AT it is not necessarily proof that you toned them, but I think you would want to mention in your auctions that the coins may have been AT'd sometime in their historical past.
<< <i>Dear Gentlemen,
This has been a very enlightening and disturbing discussion. I'm truly amazed at how easy it is for people (mostly men) to jump to judgement and condemn others. This thread would be a good lesson to my children on how easy it was to hold witch trials and burn people alive based on nothing but prejudice, opinion, conceit and, if you will please excuse me, vain self-righteousness.
>>
It's funny you mention prejudice and (mostly men) in the same paragraph. Hopefully your not teaching your kids about being prejudice about the opposite sex.
-Dave
Just kidding guys
Truthfully, this southern Belle is the concious that was missing the last couple of days here when I was being used as a Bin Laden punching bag.
Alan
Tell me about it. Although I collected coins from 1967 to 1976 I did not take it up again until 2001 as I said. What changed after all those years was the slabbing of coins which I was new to and previously unaware of. The fact that I did not practice the buy the book first rule nor did I practice the other rule of buying the coin not the slab. So, you can predict what was about to happen that first 6 months of my re-discovering coin collecting the internet way. First of all, allmy experience ion ebay had been in computers and the coin market was to say the least a lesson in caveat emptor. Shall I go down the list of time I was taken. Give a newbie $125k to spend in 6 months and while I learned quickly, I took all the rides A-Ticket thru E-Ticket. There was the Overgrading Raw Rollercoaster, the blurry photo boat ride, and other common simple rides and then there were the D and E ticket rides that caused some pain. The Giant Counterfeit Coaster posed problems when the 1795 Dollar turned out to be cast in China, moving on then there was the ACG submarine ride that sunk one quickly and left you not knowing which way was up just as in the Poseidon. Several MS-66 Morgans that really were 63's. And finally the anti climatic ride that casused a longer lasting anquish was the Big 3 Mis-Graded Slab Super Missle Ride that looped over and under and every which way and literally sent you away vowing not to take that ride again. Buying a slab only to find it overgraded by NCG is like loosing faith in FedEx or WD-40, two products that we expect to work right everytime. SO what is left of the fragile mental state that I found myself in after 6 months of self abuse, well for months I fell into a mode where I distrusted everything. Even the slightest sense of inpropriety by an ebay seller brought on my qucik to fault finger pointing side. I was paranoid that sellers had pre-meditated the mistakes and that they were not really mistakes to begin with but attempts to defraud me. Then everything changed the day I started to sell coins instead of just buying them. I now saw that what simple little mistake I made in a grade or a description sometimes turned into a federal case depending if the buyer was in that type of shell shocked distrusting mode that I was in before. I now saw both sides of the coin. No pun intended. My response to this was to inact the following things 1) ship fast 2) keep the cusotmer informed as to the progress of his order and 3) to have a very customer oriented return policy. Last fall I even went further and began to send cusomters who thought they were not quite satisfied with the order, extra free items. This was mainly done in reaction to the most difficult grouip of customers I have dealt with which is the Baseball Card buyers. These people are super paranoid and actually believe that sealed foil packs of cards can be gone through and all the key players pulled out. I mean a rumor spreads like wildfire and if a guy only found one Barry Bonds in say 72 packs of cards and he found 3 in 72 packs a month ago then he may complain. Its not all the buyers but more than you would think. Bottom line is that when I look back on it and know that i have over 7000 auctions under my belt with 3 Negatiives which 1 is as a buyer in 1998 and the other two have been recanted by the issurers and Ihave letters and comments in the response fields to prove this. SO, in over 7000 auctions I have NEVER received a NEGATIVE AS A SELLER. DO you even know how hard it is to do that, do you have any idea how much I have bent over backwards to help people. I have so many stories of things I have done to go beyond the limits.
Of the 7000 auctions about half report feedback. Of the 7000 only about 1600 are coin related, the rest are mostly computer related. Only about 750 of the 1500 are coin auctions where I was the seller. So only 10% of my total auctions are where I am selling coins. I have only been doing it about a year now. But computer auctions are even harder to earn good feedback than in the coin market .
That's allll folks,
Alan
I will ask this question of you one more time: How do you sleep at night?
Now what is the problem Redhot, have not we been through my buying history. Would you like to see my Purchase Order Journal which has the POs of everything I have bought . I am an ipen book RedHot, what are your suspicions now, that I am shill bidding sheite from Shanghai buying sliders to safely ship to all my super slow satisfied customers. Is that now the theory?
Alan
____________________________
____________________________
Alan
Why are you scamming people?
-Dave
I drive through Lafayette every day, and if Alan would like me to confirm his collection, I would be more than happy to. I love looking at cool stuff like that.
Tom
Alan says he added "Genuine" to his descriptions after the harrassment from howardw007@aol.com. I studied his auctions (aswimmer's) BEFORE the "Genuine" descriptions were added, and commented that he wasn't selling them as "Genuine" as some had portrayed him to be. I stated that in probablility, the coins were artificially toned, but that I could not say for sure without holding one (which none of you can either, legally). So, assuming the descriptions were in fact added after the harrassment, I'm left with some glaring questions:
1. Is it ILLEGAL to artificially tone a coin, and then attempt to sell it with no specific claim as to it being "Genuine?"
2. Does anyone have a right to interfere in another's commerce based on a PRESUMED presence of fraud? I'm no lawyer, but...shouldn't you have to PROVE the fraud before being allowed to make those claims? And I mean prove it in a legal sense. Delta once sent my luggage to Hawaii, while I was destined for Acapulco. Does that give me a legal, ethical or moral right to now villify Delta Airlines in a public forum as fraudulent and/or criminal? ("They have more planes. They KNOW I wanted my luggage with me, and they scheduled that flight to Hawaii just to "get me?") Incidently, Delta made it right, and for the past 12 years, I have only flown other airlines when Delta was not an option.
3. I own a hot plate AND a bottle of ammonia (used to clean fine optics). Does that make me a "Coin Doctor?"
Before I get profusely trashed, understand that I am NOT condoning selling AT coins as "Genuine," but after my "investigation, it appeared to me that this was NOT the case with aswimmer (not until someone provoked him into adding that description to his auctions). He was selling "Monster toned," "Beautiful," and "Colorful" coins. NOWHERE in the auctions that I perused, did he claim the coins to be genuine. Perhaps there was an insinuation, based on his Grandfather's collection, but it was NOT EXPLICITLY stated.
And yet some felt the right to hang him.
4. Why?
5. What gives YOU the right? Had you bought from him? Did you have irrefutable proof that his coins were "doctored?" Or did the photos simply look "doctored" and that's all you need, (being the ordained Gods of Internet Commerce and Numismatic Science)? Things are RARELY what they appear, and if "truth" were equal to appearance, Alec Baldwin would be President, and George Burns is God.
To Alan Swimmer:
I'm a coin collector, not a dealer. I THINK you were probably walking a fine line, but it appears you stayed on your side. In my opinion, a clear statement as to the nature of the toning, and any knowledge you have regarding that, would be above and beyond what is required. Perhaps it would have kept the puritans at bay.
I'm also a Capitalist, a Republican, and a PROUD American who believes in our system of free-enterprise and due process. So I encourage you to pursue any legal remedies which may be afforded you. There is no question that you were damaged here, though it might be difficult to quantify. If you have access to legal services pro bono, this is the time to make a statement. Not all of the people trashing our hobby are coin doctors. Some are merely overzealous, self-righteous, arrogant twits.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
And some of us have handled enough toned Morgan Dollars to know doctored, artificially toned examples when we see them.
North...if he didn't have "Genuine" in the description, is it mail fraud? If he never stated they were "genuine" is it mail fraud? He admitted adding "genuine" AFTER his auctions were interfered with. That was the intent of my post. Did we make him commit fraud because we thought he was commiting fraud?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
As pertaining to coins, what is the legal definition of "genuine?" Is this an accepted, quantifiable, legal term with regard to numismatics?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
So my point remains that this guy did nothing illegal, and we can't prove he did anything unethical. Whether we like it or not, there is a legitimate market for AT coins. When and what lead us to believe this guy was attempting to defraud? Once he added "genuine" to his descriptions, there might be an argument. Prior to that, I saw nothing. And he has admitted that he did this as a reaction to the criticism e was receiving.
I think what happened here is that several purists saw someone doing something they personally don't condone. They made countless assumptions and accusations, fanned the flames, then carried the torch and lead the masses to go and burn the witch. Only problem is, we don't know for sure if this is the witch or not. But that's ok. Better safe than sorry, I suppose? In the name of "defending our hobby," all is fair, as evidenced by this thread, and the countless others where a dealer is trashed becuase he doesn't do things the way one (usually, sometimes more) individual would like them done.
I see this in Astronomy too. The folks with the $50,000 computer driven scopes look down upon the folks with the old Jason. Its funny to me when you take their computers away, they can't find the moon, much less an invisible nebula. I quickly remind them that the guy who discovered Pluto used a home-made reflector up until his death (it was the only scope he ever personally owned).
Alan has some beautiful coins, whether they're AT or not. If we don't like them, we won't bid on them. But trying to tell him what he is allowed to sell, and simultaneously the rest of us what we're allowed to buy, is presumptious, arrogant, and quite simply, wrong. He has a right to sell them, described appropriately, and we have no right to stop him. As far as I can see, he hasn't broken any laws, and if we're going to start dictating ethics, I don't see how emailing his bidders and trashing his reputation, all based on assumption, is going to help our cause.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman