Threatening Emails From Ebay Seller
dragon
Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
As many of you know from a recent thread, a certain seller was recently exposed here on the forum for selling obvious doctored up toned coins to unsuspecting buyers on Ebay. I had emailed him through Ebay telling him that he should stop this fraudulent practice or I would report him to Ebay safe harbor.
Among others, here is one email I recently received from this seller on Ebay:
Sent from the Internet (Details)
You have just made a big mistake. Breaking the law and ebay rules regarding
transaction interference and economic terrorism via slander are serious.
Whereas I have broken no laws or rules of any kind you now have and if you
do not immediately cease and desist this emailing campaign then you will
suffer the consequences of your actions in ways that you have never dreamed
of.. Think I am bluffing then keep breaking the law and try me. With no cost
legal representation at my disposal the process will bury you in legal
costs.
Among others, here is one email I recently received from this seller on Ebay:
Sent from the Internet (Details)
You have just made a big mistake. Breaking the law and ebay rules regarding
transaction interference and economic terrorism via slander are serious.
Whereas I have broken no laws or rules of any kind you now have and if you
do not immediately cease and desist this emailing campaign then you will
suffer the consequences of your actions in ways that you have never dreamed
of.. Think I am bluffing then keep breaking the law and try me. With no cost
legal representation at my disposal the process will bury you in legal
costs.
0
Comments
Don't you get it, you are in serious trouble. I have not broken any laws.
Stop it or you will suffer the the result of the most immense campaign you
have ever seen. Trust me, please don't bring this on yourself.
Brian.
Brian.
<< <i>With no cost legal representation at my disposal the process will bury you in legal costs >>
He qualifies for the Free Legal Aid Society?
Seriously. Who is the slimball???
GSAGUY
P.S. Good work. Might I suggest that for his future suckers.....errhh....bidders, that you simply send them a link to the thread that discusses this slimeball.
I was thinking the same way as wingedliberty. With threats like this, maybe you could end up going after him!
Does anyone have a link to the topic that was in this forum earlier?
JJacks
<< <i>you will suffer the consequences of your actions in ways that you have never dreamed
of.. Think I am bluffing then keep breaking the law and try me. >>
You know, I swear there must be some kind of standardized scumbag manual that all these toads use. I can't count how many times I've seen precisely the same hollow blustering from one of these losers when confronted with their actions.
BTW, if the aforementioned dipsh!t is reading this thread: KMA.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>With no cost legal representation at my disposal the process will bury you in legal
costs. >>
Oh brother, another $19.95 a month "Prepaid legal" weenie spouting off about having an attorney
How about having everybody on the forum contact his buyers, that should spread him kinda thin
____________________________
GSAGUY
<< <i>...you will suffer the the result of the most immense campaign you
have ever seen. Trust me, please don't bring this on yourself. >>
I couldn't stop laughing when I read this part.
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
____________________________
However, when someone starts emailing others and tells them of "perceived" and really that's all that it is, fraud, well now that's called slander/libel, depending on the method of delivery of the statement. Furthermore, it may also be considered tortious interference with business relations, another tort and there's no affirmative defense such as truth for.
Whether he is defruading people is relatively immaterial to his action. And on top of that, you're going to have to prove it. Not an easy task in a court. Again, I remind the Board members, what you think is true, what you can prove as true and what a court will take into evidence are 3 very different things. And evidence is all a court considers.
Really, I read all these posts about this AT fraud and that coin doctor, with no real action being taken. This is a serious blight on our hobby, but being a renegade caped crusader is not going to get it done. And really anyone who thinks that will probably end up in a world of legal problems once they tangle with the wrong coin doctor. Maybe not this guy, but someone will step up to the plate and really start shutting people up and will bury them in litigation.
If you've never been sued, I don't suggest it as a sideline hobby. It's expensive, creates headaches and only makes the attorneys money.
As I've said before, to quote Hill Street Blues -- Let's be careful out there! And let's becareful what you post in these threads. Libel and slander can also occur in this environment.
And Dragon -- I hope he's only bluffing, or you might have some problems, sorry.
Michael
Isn't dragon simply exercising his right to free speech under the first amendment by emailing the guy's
bidders? Ebay is a public forum after all. He has the right to express himself. Its an opinion. Commerce was never impeded in any way.
Brian.
<< <i>I hope he's only bluffing >>
This type invariably is. If this guy actually had the wherewithal to mount a suit, (the "free" legal stuff is BS), would he really be scrounging money by doctoring up coins and selling them on eBay? Logic says otherwise.
Russ, NCNE
Ray
just a bad thought
Not listening to your attorney can be a big mistake.
The vigilantes and wannabe coin cops on this forum should thank Frattlaw for his excellent advice and stop whistling in the dark.
the bottom line is can you run up a 50000
bill defending your self from some rich nut
Contacting the seller's bidders was a BIG, emphasize, BIG mistake. As frattlaw wrote, a private e-mail is okay, and even if the seller is a real sleazeball and selling not only artificially toned coins and counterfeits as well (not the case here, at least with respect to counterfeits), contacting the bidders in an auction is called "auction interference,", a strict violation of eBay rules and also likely torturious intereference with his business practices.
You can say anything you like to his face (without witnesses who might be potential customers, I might add) or even write him an e-mail condemning his practices, but once you start contacting his bidders, you really open yourself up to a world of hurt and perhaps some very serious financial expenditure. Most think their Homeowner's policies will protect them from such legal actions, but many do not.
I am NOT condoning the seller's apparently misleading auction(s), but if I were you, I would send that seller an e-mail telling him you were out of line and apologize. I know, it sounds like a spineless thing to do, and I'm not sure I could eat that slice of humble pie myself, but you seriously erred by contacting his bidders! I would not escalate the situation any.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen old customers of mine bidding on pure garbage, and I've been sorely tempted to contact them, but I know better. I hope you all take this advice as well as frattlaw's advice as well.
Simply feeling you are right does not mean you'll be able to prove it it a court of law, and even if you CAN prove it, figure on spending at least $20-$30,00 for starters IF YOU WIN! The seller could then appeal the decision and then figure on another $30-$40,000. If you LOSE, you could really lose bigtime!
Ira
And to clarify a point made by Brian -- There's no Constitutional right to free speech in regards to private parties. 1st Amendment only applies when the government is trying to impinge your rights. You just can't go around saying whatever you feel like about anyone you feel like saying it about. Of course, there's some variation of this concept when it comes to celebrities, but I'm not posting a course of libel and slander on this forum.
Ebay is not a public forum, it's a private enterprise. Think of it this way, your at your job as a _______ (fill in the blank) when someone you don't know walks in and says " That SOB ________ (fill in the blank with your name) just (pick one)raped/robbed/sodomized/defrauded/F***ed my spouse/F***ed my dog ect ME, he/she is a real scumbag and noone here should employ this SOB. And they gave me gential herpes, by the way!" Well I don't think you would like it, especially if your boss was a religious man/woman and decided to fire you on the spot.
I would think before going home and telling your family they have to move from their 5 bedroom 3 bath media center home into a local trailer park, you'd be stopping by a lawyer's office on the way.
Well that's sorta what happened here. Of course my scenerio is little more sexy, but hey the results are basically the same.
If you're not the type of person to walk into someone's office and say the above line in quotes, well then you really shouldn't do the same thing via an email. But if you are, please PM me and I'll quote you my hourly rate, cause you're probably going to need a good lawyer.
Michael
Be careful or he may get you for "terrorist threats" or some other slimeball phrase.
I also (but am not sure) think that email bidders about particular auctions is against eBay rules (eBay has and always will be out for eBay revenue as it's #1 driving force).
I realize this board has many lawyers, and please take no offense to what I have said that may have offended you.
What I can never believe is how do these guys keep on continually selling grandpa's estate, and how they got into slabs 30 years ago - heck was their grandpa like Redfield and did he have 484,000 mint state silver dollars that he left his poor grandkid to sell on eBay?
even if you win and are right you'll still spend years and a bunch of cash
if he is the wrong type or push this with free help their alot of lawyers
looking for a free ride and in some cases relatives looking to help out
With that being said, it is an entirely different matter to state your opinion in a public forum or your own website. I have yet to be referred to a case where anyone has successfully sued participants in a public forum where they were stating their opinions on the quality of a seller's merchandise. I personally have been threatened legally many times for my comments in public forums, and the content of my ACG website. I have yet to be sued.
I strongly disagree with the notion that we should be quiet about blatant fraud in numismatics simply because we "couldn't afford to defend" ourselves. Sorry Mike, that is a chance I will take.
Could be wrong...Frattlaw? Is that somewhat correct?
i didn't back off my deal but i knew it before i went their
more power to you if you stick to your guns
but be fore warned
By the way K6AZ, just because you haven't been sued doesn't mean you won't be. Be careful, I've seen your site.
Michael
<< <i>As many of you know from a recent thread, a certain seller was recently exposed here on the forum for selling obvious doctored up toned coins to unsuspecting buyers on Ebay. I had emailed him through Ebay telling him that he should stop this fraudulent practice or I would report him to Ebay safe harbor.
Among others, here is one email I recently received from this seller on Ebay:
Sent from the Internet (Details)
You have just made a big mistake. Breaking the law and ebay rules regarding
transaction interference and economic terrorism via slander are serious.
Whereas I have broken no laws or rules of any kind you now have and if you
do not immediately cease and desist this emailing campaign then you will
suffer the consequences of your actions in ways that you have never dreamed
of.. Think I am bluffing then keep breaking the law and try me. With no cost
legal representation at my disposal the process will bury you in legal
costs. >>
Maybe I missed something, but I don't see the wrong here. No where does dragon say that he contacted bidders, did he do so and say in another thread that I missed?
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
Also I think the "free" legal services to which he was referring was eBay's legal staff or dept. that is if he reported harrassment to eBay that their legal dept would take care of it for him.
<< <i>Isn't dragon simply exercising his right to free speech under the first amendment by emailing the guy's bidders? Ebay is a public forum after all. He has the right to express himself. Its an opinion. Commerce was never impeded in any way. Brian. >>
Frattlaw's point is one I've made before. Take it from a guy with 40 years of practicing law in hand: successfully defending a frivolous lawsuit can be excruciatingly expensive in time and money, plus there are lots of ways to lose litigation over language. Remember, the OJ jurors are still out there getting seated!
It is time I come in and speak up for there are just 2 or 3 people who for some reason have chosen to single out and make their ANTI AT Poster Boy and I am being portrayed as some kind of low life scum. Dragon who has decided that he needed to email bidders on my auctions and say things that he has no proof of or facts to back up his claim. The 7 or so auctions that say guranteed on them were posted after I began to get attacked. These coins are not from my grandafathers collection and are mine. I personally opened rolls where I found one on each end that were toned. I will put up $1000 that says these that I stated guaranteed on are naturally toned 100%.
The other thing that really bothers me is that my Grandfather has been mentioned so many times mostly where it is insinuated that he is a lie to promote some unethical practice of selling coins that I doctored. Everything is true that I have told people and I am proud of the man. He was a great man. I have the postcard trail that he left from every hotel he stayed at for at least a 20 year period. This paper trail consists of postcards and letters to his mother and wife and kids and number over 500 documents. By plotting them on a US map I was able to see where he went each year. This should lay rest to any question of the story's validity. I have pictures of the old Library of Coins album that contained some of the many toned Morgans. My father has slides and color 8mm of his father with coins, in front of all kinds of stores, I remember ones in Arizona and Nevada in particular. I have many other of his toned coins. I have a complete Merc Dime collection in a Library of Coins album all toned if you want pictures of that. I have many Washington Quarters, and Roosevelt dimes toned as well. I have pictures of parts of the collection when I received the first part fom my Dad about 5 months or so ago. I invite any one of you to come here and inspect this house and look for weapons of mass,.....I mean chemicals or equipment of doctoring. Its time to see the truth as I know it and make statements that are false and then add to them other facts that are taken the wrong way to form a conclusion that is just not right. I think the most outrageous example of this is the whole thing about the chemicals. First of all I have not even received the products won yet so all the talk and finger pointing has been quite humorous. You ask why would I order such things, and why would I do it in the open so all could see. The reason is I have nothing to hide as I am not a coin doctor nor a fraud. The chemicals as people have pointed out are not ideal for toning coins I understand but do have a purpose and reason why my wife bid and won the auctions. Some are for her dark room and film development, others are for her aquarium and others yet for my son and his chemistry projects. And there was one that he is not getting as there is no reason why he needs a fertilzer and it can be used to make things go BAM. The hot plate and oven, are the smoking gun wheras the chemicals were the bullets, well sorry to say that its a cheap college stove and oven people for my daughter and her roomate to heat up smacks and warm leftober pizza or whatever. That did arrivce already and she has been using it. There have been a couple of people here that would want to hang me it seems and I have done nothing to them. Another lie written here is that somehow my 3100 feedbacks must be doctored by me having other user names. Wrong, I have only has one user name to buy and sell since I joined Ebay in November, 1998. Another thing is that these people who have made it their job to hurt me are not reporting the fact right. They take emails and actions out of sequence or forget that they insighted the reaction by their action to begin with. I am a small guy, a collector first and only fell into selling last year after the economy hit my Computer company hard. I had luckily divested out of the stock market the year before and put the whole wad into coins and I was lucky. So I ahve been living off that by selling thigs from my wild ride on the buying side the year before plus I sell things for others like these coins which are the center of all the talk and finger pointing. I am not a fraud and if yu met me you would know that the pictures being painted of me are so far from the truth. Let's examine some other things. 1. my return policy is so geered to the customer, I do not have unhappy customer . And as someone said here, well his customers must be new and not smart so he has happy customers. That is a flat out useless statement. I stand behind everything I sell and am proud of it. There is nobofy who takes care of his customers than me. Am I open and above board. My adds all have my address and phone numbers right there. I use my name as the company name as I want complete openess. This is contrary to some people here that email me asking simple questions then run back here with my answers using them as some sort of evidence against me. When this concerns my family and/or my name I get updet asany of you would as well. If these same people had been nice and open rather than sneaky and harrassing then I would respect them . I am also surprised at the level of genuine mob like hate. The number of names I have been called is rivaling Sadam and I again see this as the result of not getting the facts right and stirring up the emotions of the members . I swear if this were an old western then I would be on a horse facing backwards with a noose around my neck and Dragon or the other guy about to say giddy up so that I am left dangling and soon dead. In summation I can say that on my part there is no conspiracy, no master plan, no laboratory, no chemical knowledge or coin toning going on here. I have come here to deal with this as I see many voices of reason and logic appearing in the last few hours. The radical element who were spurring others on to conspire to put me away should calm down and quit fanning the hate (reminds me of an old Star Trek episode where the alien grows off the emotion hate, remember that one?) flame and see that 1) I am not en evid doer and 2) conspiring to hurt my name or business from everything to emailing my bidders to using paypal, VISA, etc to reverse charges and cause a paperwork meltdown are scary on multiple levels. As you have noticed I have not posted any more coins from my grandfathers collection on ebay, the last ones that are guaranteed are as I said ones I found in rolls. So, that is clearly a statement by me that I do not want to get into a messy fight over this with anyone. Life is too short. I am not a coin doctor nor do I agree that these ones in question are AT as I know their pedigree, although only since they have been in my fathers possession since the late 70s when they came out of the storage when my grandmother moved to a retirement community.
SO, what have we got here. One, I have opened this house up a, myself up, explained the true facts about the false smoking gun, have stopped listing the last of the grandfather Swimmer's collection, have come forth here in good faith and with 100% honesty, have told my feelings about this and have pictures to support much of the facts that I presented presented here. Do you need a second Security Council proclaming that Alan is not this bad guy who several of you guys have portrayed me as. I could talk about others who as one guy said are a much bigger problem, especially since I was unaware I would ever be seen as a problem since I am a collector first and only sell because half the fun is building a collection and selling it only to build another. That was kind of the theory behind my Dad selling it, why not share his fathers work with the world rather than having it split up between the 3 kids and not see the enjoyment people would derive from their owning a piece of his fathers life history so to speak. I just wish the coins could talk and tell us where they came to be his.
Signed,
Alan Swimmer
Lafayette, CA
22 miles west of San Francisco
Alan
Probably a PM to Dragon for clarification would be in order.
peacockcoins
And this means what? That my site is slanderous and libelous to ACG? I am no stranger to the law and litigation. Everything on my site was done with possible litigation in mind.
I really disagree with people like you who show up on these forums, and basically say that none of us ought to say what is right, even if we can prove it is right, because we might get sued. This is the same wimpy posistion the ANA has taken, and now it is to the point where they refuse to take a stand on any of this business (coin doctoring, ACG, etc.) because they don't want to be involved in a lawsuit.
People have to have the courage to stand up for what is right. If enough people do, these slimeballs could not possibly sue everyone. Can you imagine what it would be like today if our founding fathers had this chicken mentality? Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and the rest knew they would be strung up if they lost. But they stood up for what they believed in.
Alan
The funny thing about AT or doctored coins is it has been going on for a long time - if a certain type of coin was what your grandfather liked, he probably ended up with lots of them.
There was quite awhile when I was buying blast white coins until I found out they usually were dipped lusterless of scrubbed mercifully, now I like cool color.
Pat, I would assume that Dragon may have removed that information based on the threats he got in the email.
Mr. Swimmer, I don't know anything about you and haven't even looked at the auctions in question, but was it necessary send an email with all those threats right away (or maybe there were other emails back and forth first)? Did you even send him an email explaining you don't believe they were AT and that you knew where the coins were from etc. first?
JJacks
I just received an email from a howardw007@aol.com, and his message was as follows: FYI....That "toned coin" from aswimmer on Ebay is a 100% artificially toned coin and a piece of crap, this seller is a total fraud.
I AM interested in you response.
Thank You
Here is the full email tah another guy sent me:
FYI.....That "toned coin" from aswimmer on Ebay is a 100% artificially toned
coin and a piece of crap, this seller is a total fraud. Look at the stuff he
BUYS on Ebay, chemicals and a hotplate for cooking coins. Cancel your bid or
end up with a crap, near worthless, chemically altered coin. They all look
the same, any clue??
Who is not telling the truth?
Alan
I admire your convictions!
Question, what would they have to prove in order to collect damages according to what was done, assuming a court case and judgment were won. Would the damages be based on the amount of revenue lost based on his auctions, plus court cost.
____________________________
Mr. Swimmer..Thanks for the reply but I'm afraid the people that made personal attacks on you wont stop here.....That would mean they did something bad.......So the only option open to them will be to attack more.
Where's Russ?
<< <i>Pat, I would assume that Dragon may have removed that information based on the threats he got in the email. JJacks >>
Okay, but I would think that is one bell that cannot be unrung. Once posted and then commented on, going back and editing out the offending admission doesn't change the fact the event of sending out emails to these potential auction buyers took place.
peacockcoins