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2 improperly annealed nickels from one box?
Kurisu
Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭✭✭
Not sure what my fascination with improperly annealed coins is...
But each time @FredWeinberg or someone else confirms them for me, my satisfaction and enjoyment with finding another one grows 
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
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Never collected these, but have seen several posted here over the years. Cheers, RickO
Boy, if these nickels are something special I would not be able to distinguish them from regular old circulated ones. What are the distinguishing features? The brownish tinge?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
How can you tell these were improperly annealed? The nickels I've seen with true improper annealing are much darker or show the clad layer peeled (or burnt) off.
The coins you've posted just look like a couple of dirty nickels to me...
I vote "dirty" also.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That's why I post stuff here...because I want to learn more
The reasons I think they're improperly annealed...
Very nice luster under the speckled surface on both sides of both nickles.
That speckling is also equal density on both sides of both nickles.
The edges are shiny with some tiny areas of smoothed pitting that have some of that greyness in the pitting.
My understanding is that the edges should be shiny from having most of that carbon scraped off by the collar during minting.
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
Those nickels are not examples of mis-annealed planchets
Jefferson nickels have no clad layer.
Thanks for checking Fred!
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
Not familiar with the term anealed could someone please explain and thanks for educating me
Oxidative State I
Why are you bringing up these old threads, to make nonsensical remarks?
Just curious 🤔
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Just answering any IA question correctly now before I publish my paper next year on Improperly Annealed Errors. The first oxidative state I is the golden hue step. Here is the current model based on my current working hypothesis:
Stage I: Golden Hue Improper Annealing
Under the improper annealing model, the golden-hue stage represents the earliest visible expression of oxidation on an otherwise Mint State coin. At this point, the coin has been exposed to elevated temperatures during annealing, allowing a very thin oxide film to develop on the surface. The oxide layer remains relatively transparent and thin, permitting a substantial amount of the original mint luster to remain visible. As light interacts with this developing surface film, the coin can take on attractive golden, champagne, or pale amber coloration while still displaying strong cartwheel luster.
Metallurgically, Stage I is interpreted as the beginning of surface oxidation rather than a fundamental change in the underlying alloy. The copper-rich areas nearest the surface begin reacting with oxygen, producing an extremely thin oxide film. Because the film is still limited in thickness, reflectivity remains high and the coin often appears fully original to collectors who are unfamiliar with improperly annealed errors. In many cases, the visual appearance can be mistaken for natural toning, particularly when the coin retains choice-to-gem quality surfaces.
The strong luster present on high-grade examples can actually hinder recognition of the annealing effect. Bright reflected light tends to dominate the coin's appearance, masking the subtle color shift produced by early oxidation. A collector viewing a single specimen may simply see an attractive golden coin with original surfaces rather than recognizing it as the first stage of an oxidation sequence. This optical effect becomes even more pronounced when photographs are taken under direct lighting, where luster can overwhelm more subtle color differences.
For this reason, side-by-side comparison with a normal example of the same issue is one of the most effective diagnostic tools. When examined next to a standard coin, the improperly annealed specimen frequently appears warmer, more golden, and slightly darker despite retaining equivalent luster. The comparison allows the observer to separate color effects from luster effects, making the oxidation stage easier to recognize. Without such a reference coin, the golden-hue stage can be surprisingly deceptive.
In our working model, Stage I golden specimens represent the starting point of a progressive oxidation pathway that may eventually advance through amber and brown coloration before reaching the dark brown, gray, or black appearances observed in more heavily oxidized improperly annealed coins. Although the color is visually appealing and often accompanied by outstanding luster, the golden hue may be the first visible indication that oxidation has begun and that the coin occupies an early position within the improperly annealed spectrum rather than being simply a naturally toned example.
John Lorenzo
Numismatist USA
You're off to a very bad start.
Fred Weinberg had already stated that the two nickels shown "are not examples of mis-annealed planchets".
Fred Weinberg is WRONG. 100% certainty.
Well 99% probability. The SEM/EDS data is still being generated.
I do mention Fred Weinberg in the draft paper. I call it the Fred Weinberg principle. In some past PCGS post he indicates for a legitimate IA error make sure the outer clad layer EDGE or red stripe is red for it to be a legitimate IA error to confirm it has not been tampered with or is PMD. There are some exceptions to this principle. This is just for dimes to dollars and the outer clad layer has the same basic alloy composition as the Jefferson Nickel of 75% Cu/25%Ni.
sem?
eds?
Fred Weinberg does not give a reason they are not IA. Again - I could be wrong but generating these posts so the study is on solid ground. Hard to imagine the golden hues are not the first oxidation state of IA errors. Do they just go from original surfaces to black instaneously in the annealing furnaces?
if you don't know, why are you writing a paper?
i'd imagine this is a black and white. it's not terminal toning. the metal turned black
MsMorrisine - SEM/EDS can be used to investigate the different oxidative states associated with improperly annealed (IA) coin errors by comparing the chemistry and surface morphology of normal, gold, red, brown, and black regions. Although EDS cannot directly identify specific oxide compounds, it can measure oxygen enrichment and changes in elemental ratios, particularly the Cu/O ratio, which are expected to vary as oxidation progresses. Areas representing more advanced oxidation should generally exhibit higher oxygen levels, lower Cu/O ratios, rougher surface textures, stronger grain-boundary expression, and more developed oxide structures under SEM imaging. By documenting these chemical and morphological trends across color transitions, SEM/EDS can help determine whether IA coloration reflects a progressive oxidation sequence produced during annealing rather than differences in the underlying alloy composition.
Any other concerns or questions???
sem?
eds?
Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM) coupled with Energy-Dispersive X-ray Spectroscopy (EDS) is an analytical technique that combines high-magnification imaging with elemental analysis. SEM uses a focused electron beam to produce detailed images of a specimen's surface, revealing features such as grain structure, surface roughness, oxide growth, cracks, and other microscopic characteristics. EDS, attached to the SEM, detects characteristic X-rays emitted from the sample and identifies the elements present, providing qualitative and quantitative chemical data. Together, SEM/EDS allows researchers to examine both the morphology and elemental composition of a coin's surface, making it particularly useful for investigating alloy segregation, oxidation patterns, corrosion, improper annealing effects, and other metallurgical phenomena in numismatic studies.
Next question.
In the interim go to Eric P. Newman portal and see my past studies with this technique. Put SEM/EDS in the SEARCH BOX. Will check back tomorrow and answer all your inquires. Again just looking for new ideas, correct current information, etc.
I believe Fred.
Thanks for your time moving forward here.
so, you have multiple coins in varying states of annealing and have performed examinations of the surfaces to show the properties of the differing states?
Before everyone runs off the rails, please post a clear definition of "improperly annealed" as it relates to U.S. copper-nickel alloy coinage.
Thanks!
Correct. Research still progressing. In metallurgy its called the "Color Oxidation Pathway: "The gradual change in a coin's color as the metal surface reacts with oxygen over time or during heating. As oxidation increases, the color typically progresses from the original metal color to gold, red, brown, and eventually dark brown or black. Different colors represent different stages of surface oxidation, meaning two areas of the same coin can appear different simply because one area has oxidized further than the other.
Paper to be completed in April/May 2027. Making inquires within the numismatic fraternity as errors are not mine main expertise. So far no real discrepancies in the model.
and, while the whole coin is being annealed inside the same place for th same amount of time, how does one area oxidize further than another?