Will remaining Liberty Bell gold coins be melted?
HalfDime
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Here are the latest sales for the two Liberty bell gold coins:
This is the numbers from one month ago:
Today Last Month Diff.
1017 1026 -9
1051 1074 -23
1804 1977 -173
There are fewer sales than a month ago for all three! I went back and since early August it is down nearly 200 for each of them as well.
Since the initial sellout that happened, and the massive returns for only the gold versions, there has been little movement since, and it is actually declining. The mint can stubbornly repackage and it will not improve sales. This ship has sailed. For those who did purchase the obvious best outcome would be for the mint to admit they botched this roll-out and take them off market and melt the remaining inventory.
This is probably not happening anytime soon, but my guess is they will eventually have to do it. It may be six months from now, or a year or two, but one day the two remaining gold Liberty bell gold coins will simply be removed from sales and that will end this.
Had the mint website been working properly it is likely the sellout would have held. Instead bots were allowed to buy up most of the gold inventory for a flip that never materialized. This resulted in almost half being cancelled or returned.
In the end this may work out to the collectors advantage who did buy and have held on through this. The mint will have to either have these up for sale for many years, or eat the loss and take them down.
Mintages under 2000 are rare in gold proof, and these at current numbers are almost lowest 10 all-time by type gold. Yet it looks like the gold Liberty bells cannot ring up new sales anymore at current prices. Could the mint drop the prices and alienate all past buyers? It is the only other option besides melting, and only the mint can decide which of the two paths to take, assuming buyers remain away from these issues.
Comments
there are items from the 2022 schedule for sale, but eventually remaining can be melted. let's hope gold hits 20,000 so they don't need to do it
They'll keep those up for years unless gold gets crazy expensive. I don't think it’s likely they will drop the prices though. I think one day these could become genuine collectors items but not for decades.
This was an overpriced, silly coin from the beginning. I’d pay melt for it if gold were $500 an ounce. In other words, I’m not a buyer.
Agreed!!!! Overpriced is an understatement. I'm assuming one day there will be a strong market for these many years from now 😎
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Great to hear from one of our old timers! What did you think of the Pan Pac Octagonal when it was issued? Did you buy one?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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The Pan-pac $50 gold pieces sold for $100. From my understanding, that price also got you the half dollar, gold dollar and the quarter eagle. That sounds more reasonable than the $19,000 price the mint wants for this misshaped thing. Aside from an accidental trimming of an Oak or Pine Tree shilling, I can’t think of another coin which shaped like a bell.
The Pan-Pan $50 had its historical roots in the $50 gold slugs several assayers issued during the gold rush. This bell shaped thing has no such roots. Its “legitimacy” is based on the famous five letter word, G-R-E-E-D. So far it has received the numismatic cold shoulder it deserves.
I was yet to be born when the Pan-Pacific $50s were sold. My father would have been a year old. But, yes, I do own both of them. Some day I’d like to have a gold slug to go with them.
I did an hour-long phone survey with someone from the mint about a year ago. My two big complaints were: 1) I really disliked the superhero comic coins that the mint was getting into. I felt it really lowered the image of U.S. coins. I said they should leave that sort of stuff to South Pacific Island countries. 2) Was the super high premiums they were charging. I told that guy I had recently stopped buying directly from the mint. All I had to do was wait a year or two, sometimes less, and I could buy the item from a local coin shop or pawn shop for a little over the current melt value.
The mint's prices are outrageous for just about everything. At one time the mint sold colorful information cards for young collectors which contained the current commemorative half dollar at an affordable price. Now they price that base metal coin at over $50. They obviously don’t care to get the young people involved unless they can soak them at high prices like the rest of us.
I am very glad that my interest in modern coins is limited. It’s gotten more limited since the mint has decided to charge monopoly prices for everything they sell. I’ll buy one silver Proof set per year at their inflated price, and that will be it.
$19,600 for one ounce of gold or $10,500 for half an ounce of gold for a bullion coin with no documented numismatic value is insane to put it politely. I’m shocked there are any buyers for these at all anywhere near those levels.
So, do you guys think these coins will be a good investment? What if they only sell a couple dozen coins because they are grossly overpriced and the rest are melted? I can see this coin becoming a modern rarity and perhaps the rarest coin from the 21st century.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
it can be a rarity, but will anyone want it? it's not part of a series. Maybe in 100 years it will get some love. maybe if the mint is so deluded they can make it part of a series: random shaped junk people didn't want at issue
We will see. When did the Pan-Pacific $50 start getting large mark ups?
I've heard rumors there are people (some call them collectors) who acquire things mainly for the enjoyment that possession affords them, and for whom the item's investment value is not particularly an issue.
I remember reading an article in one of the coin magazines back in the late 1960's where a retired mint employee was interviewed about his experiences at the mint. He said he was there when they were melting gold coins from the FDR gold confiscation. He said that he saw several Pan Pac Expo $50 gold slugs being dumped into the melting pot. That would have given me nightmares.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Everything old is new again. On the release of Columbian half dollars...
Minneapolis Times: "A dollar will go no further in Chicago than in some other places, but Chicago is the only town that can sell 50¢ for $1."
San Francisco Examiner: "The newest thing out. Buy your half-dollar for a dollar and sell it for two dollars. We don't hear much about the two-dollar victims yet, but suppose they will be forthcoming.
The Lafayette dollar didn't do a lot better...
The April 1902 issue of The Numismatist reported that “Lafayette dollars seem to have taken a tumble” with confirmed selling prices noted at $1.75 for individual coins and $1.50 for groups of 10. The slide continued, and by January 1903, The Numismatist included reports of the coin being sold by dealers for as little as $1.10.
Yes but assuming that supply of money is not infinite, there is an opportunity cost to purchasing directly from the Mint especially if there is a very good chance you can buy it for the same or less in the after market in the near future. There is an economic calculus to everything including collecting even when investment is not the sole or primary goal.
Me too.
Not everybody cares about that. Some will buy from the mint because that's what they always do.
Some collectors have no investment goals.
The mint should announce that these will go off sale on Dec. 31st 2026, and give everyone a last chance to buy. The current sales are close to what these deserve to hold value going forward, the gold product limit at 2026 mintages have proven to be too high.
Surprisingly some must have returned silver bells as that one has dropped well below 2026 even though they are going for $4000 RAW.
Agree to disagree. I don't think any sellout would have held.
If nothing else, this shows there is simply no market for $20k per ounce gold trinkets from the Mint. Limited edition privy versions of beloved classic coins notwithstanding. Which is what caused some here to get all excited over these, and what caused the Mint to think it could get away with this. As though they could sell anything at any price as long as they make few enough of them.
Because, if there was an actual market for 2K of these at $20K per ounce, the returns would have sold, just like the returns from any other hot issue. Buyers club bots, or the people here on this forum. Doesn't matter. The vast majority of people who bought bought to flip. No flip = risk free return.
The organic demand for crap like this turns out to be around 1K. Not 2K. To be honest, even that is around 1K more than I would have thought.
These were just dogs. Period. The bots didn't turn them into dogs. The Mint did, with the quantity and the price. They could have easily sold 5-10K of them at a normal price, but they chose to try this instead. Live and learn.
I just want to know where is @ProofCollection with a mea culpa and an apology. Very quick to point out when I am wrong, but nowhere to be found when I turn out to be right.
He was extrapolating daily sales back in July, before the returns started being processed, and predicting a sellout, of both gold versions by the end of the year. And telling me I had no idea what I was talking about. At least I admit when I am wrong.
The silver medals are going for $4000 RAW, that is nearly the price for an once of gold. That is not what silver dogs sell for.
The 1k mintage for the gold I agree on, and that is why I say put out a press release and only have those up until the end of the year. Let the market decide now instead of dragging these out.
BTW all three were a sell-out in under 30 minutes, and anyone who predicted it was right. Nobody could have guessed the mint's rickety website was so broken they allowed dozens of bots to buy most of the product up and exclude actual collectors. Then when the gold flip failed they cancelled only on those. FOMO was gone so others failed to step in. The question is what happens next.
Correct. For whatever reason, the silver ones ended up not being dogs.
People were willing to pay $750 for a silver bell with $30 worth of silver, and they have taken off from there. That was obvious at launch, and is not what I am talking about. So why are you?
I'm talking about $10K and $20K gold bells, priced at $20K per ounce of gold, that bombed. @ProofCollection predicted a sell out at the time, and said I was clueless for predicting that many would be coming back, given there was no flip. Which is precisely what happened, with absolutely no interest after initial sales. In fact, returns just keep piling up.
Facts. No reason to argue with me, now that results are in.
No, a sell-out in under 30 minutes, with half of them coming back, is not a sell out at all. It's a bomb. Anyone who predicted a bomb, and no flip for a $20K per ounce gold Liberty Bell was right.
The fact that people took advantage of the Mint's willingness to give them a free shot means nothing, because they sales were never real. They were just people taking a risk free shot at a flip.
Given that we know how it turned out, I'm not sure why you'd want to argue the point now. There was never FOMO. There was always only a prospective flip. If FOMO was real, people would have either taken them off flippers hands, OR bought the returns from the Mint.
In hindsight, only around 1K people wanted them. I don't even understand that, but there is nothing to argue. People want $20K per ounce privy AGEs and FH gold coins, not gold Liberty Bells. Period.
There is no "question" regarding what happens next. Over 1K half ounce and full ounce gold Liberty Bells are available for sale directly from the Mint. With no takers. Period. Because 2K never wanted them.
This has nothing to do with bots slamming the website. Because many came back, and people don't want them. They only ever wanted them to flip. Not because there is no FOMO.
Other hot releases become available through returns. They immediately sell out.
Not FOMO. Just actual demand. Which is lacking with these. It always was.
Even though people were, and are, willing to pay for the silver ones. Because $750, or even $4K, is not $10K or $20K. I don't understand why anyone would pay $4K for $30 worth of silver, but won't pay $10K for $2K worth of gold, but they are.
It's all hot garbage to me. So, I was right about the gold and wrong about the silver.
Why was no one else wrong about anything, when something that sold out for 5 minutes before there was no flip turned out not to be sold out at all? And when extrapolated sales through the end of the year failed to manifest, while I was spot on about the level of returns once it was clear there would not be a flip, because very few actually wanted them, even with their insanely low mintages?
Your rants have become increasingly tiresome. Even when you’re right, and making some good observations, you appear to go out of your way to offend readers.
So move on. They offer an Ignore function for this very reason.
I'm just a little tired of the chorus of "you're a blowhard who knows nothing" when I turn out to be wrong, accompanied by crickets when I turn out to be right, and am just pointing that out. "Your rants are tiresome, and you're offensive even when you're right" just proves my point.
What did I say that was objectively offensive, other than pointing out that I got lots of criticism over, among other things, silver bells, with not a peep about the gold ones where I was 1,000,000% spot on? As we now move on to a melting discussion, combined with some nonsense about there technically being a sell out until there wasn't, and isn't.
Making people right even when they were wrong. While I'm somehow offensive.
Back when these were first offered I was on the mint website hoping to buy a 1/2 ounce gold and silver set, and I got skunked like many others. There was FOMO that morning as all of us had the website waiting room going for well past the complete sell-out. That does not happen without FOMO.
What changed things was the initial buyers who received orders posted pictures of the scratched coins, and the badly designed packaging. Many of those posting said they were returning their gold coin. That pretty much killed off any remaining FOMO on this product.
Even after all the bot purchases were cancelled, many stayed away. Later on we heard the mint was going to put these on backorder while they update the packaging. If anyone tries to buy a gold coin today, it shows backorder due to this.
My guess is the mint initially struck these at full mintage, which means 2026 for each of all three. They did not treat these as a normal commemmorative, where they do a lower strike amount and once sales prove themselves, they strike the remaining amount to finish off demand.
This has lead to the dilemma the mint now has. I believe than many buyers will not take the risk of getting a scratched up gold coin on an order due to this (or a perceived reject). I also am not agreeing that these are dogs, as according to the numbers many of the gold coins have already likely been melted.
If sales were stopped today, this is where final mintages would be:
$250 gold 1017
$125 gold 1051
silver bell 1804
However if the mint dragged this out to selling remaining inventory, this is total amount left assuming no more are made:
$250 gold 1708
$125 gold 1622
silver bell 1804
This means, assuming the above, that 944 have already been melted out of the original amount.
If the mint strikes no more then at worst these would be final amounts, although it is likely that even more gold will be destroyed as they will get further returns over the next few years.
One other point on these being dogs, the silver medal version is selling as though it is a key date silver eagle, that is not what silver dogs do. The gold RAW cannot go higher as they are still available to purchased at issue price, so those will not reflect true value until after a sell-out. Many listings on Ebay for the gold I don't believe actually have the coins, as they are standard mint pictures. They are going to mint order to fill.
The mint should sell off the remaining inventory during calendar year 2026 only as a true commemmorative and call it a day. otherwise they will be selling these for years as many here have already stated.
Sorry but more than 2k wanted them, the mint ruined the release. The rest of the details aren't needed.
If you say so. I say the results speak for themselves, and that there have been plenty of so-called "ruined" releases of popular, highly desirable product that were instantly gobbled up when later offered for sale at 7:30 a.m.
Not these. Why? I say because no one, other than the very few who already have them, actually want to own them at the price offered, and there is no flip.
Potential scratched coins are a red herring, because that never stopped anyone from buying anything that was hot, given the Mint's liberal return policy, including covering return shipping. It's just nonsense.
It's really quite simple. It's not competitive at the issue price because it's just not interesting enough for what it actually is as a collectible, and only collectors ultimately derive any utility from coins as collectibles.
It's not actually scarce. Anyone with the money will be able to buy it any day of the week. There also isn't anything US collecting needs to "discover" about this coin it doesn't already know.
This particular coin is about as a far removed from resembling a circulating coin as you can get. "Real coins" aren't shaped like neckless pendants. The comparison to the Pan Pac $50 isn't valid either, as at least this coin's specifications reflected FV if the US Mint had ever struck this denomination for circulation. That's what applies to silver and gold proofs of circulating coinage and pattern coinage too. Circulating coins also don't have the weight inscribed in the legend. From US coinage to my recollection only the trade dollar has the metal purity in the legend but there was a commercial purpose for it.
All of these attribute differences explain US collecting's perception difference between practically all NCLT and all other US coinage.
I'm aware of one or maybe two coins with 1000+ where each one sells for the same or higher price, the 1907 HR Saint and V75 AGE. That's one or two out of how many US coins? 5000+? 00's of 000s if counting all others for US collectors who also collect non-US coinage.
Not very many, is it?
No First Strike Silver Liberty Bell medals graded 70. That speaks volumes for who got the early orders in and the condition of the medals after shipping.
Does it? Where are you seeing that?
Because this is what I am seeing:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2026-p-250-freedom-ringing-liberty-bell-au-dcam/1017326
Indicating nothing, given how few sold and how few were graded. Basically, no one got early orders in, and the split between 69 and 70 is nothing special. What is the 70 premium for something no one cares about in any grade?
"First Strike" is nothing but a marketing gimmick, and you should know that, given all 2026 were stuck on exactly the same day, and sold on exactly the same day. Who bought after release day, given the sales report only went down from there?
thank you for posting this
one of the bickering people was put in timeout and i had hope this would settle down. it appears the rants that are bringing the forum down will continue. i have hope other will be placed in timeout to recover what was once a great place to exchange information rather that bicker
No 70's. 17 69's.
That means so far no 3 coin First Strike sets in 70. A couple of dealers had listed sets in 70 but they must have never got the grades.
For what it's worth, there are a total of 15 silver Liberty Bell medals graded 70. (2) with the basic everyday PCGS label, (5) with a "Global Coin Trump" label, and (8) First Day of Issue labels [1 with non-special FDOI, 2 Damstra, 3 Trump, and 2 Mercanti].
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
Did you click on the link I posted? I wonder what accounts for the divergence?
It's possible that the labels are just noise, and what you are posting is not capturing the entire population, since it is segregating by label, while the Coin Facts captures everything, given its higher numbers for both grades.
You can already Ignore anyone you want to, without publicly "hoping" or actively lobbying for anyone to be disciplined for your amusement.
Your link is gold, not silver.
You are seen, @jmlanzaf .
May you return soon to engage @NJCoin in verbal combat!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Excellent point! My bad -- I thought we were talking about gold, since that's what the thread is about. I missed "silver," even that is exactly what he said!
Or, to support me, since I have never asked to have anyone banned, put in time out, or anything else, given that anyone can Ignore anyone who posts content they don't like.
Why don't you ask him? We've figured out a way to communicate with him in his cell!
@jmlanzaf , do you intend to support @NJCoin upon your return? Post once for yes and twice for no. 😆
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
combat
how pleasant
??
combat? I think you were looking for the Disagree button
@MsMorrisine
No need to be a conscientious objector tonight. I said VERBAL combat. Im not suggesting they fight. It was a joke, because they argue incessantly. You had to post twice about it? Sheesh
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
"You had to post twice about it? Sheesh"
such a pleasant thread
(Answer to OP) Doubt they will melt them. The mint has a tenacious habit of hanging onto unpopular products for...ever. If they're smart they can halve the price and sell out. Still well over melt.
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Wow, he was finally banned?!
If you're going to talk about what I said, at least get it right. I said "eventual sellout" accompanied with an estimation around the end of the year. We are still 3 months out so I am yet to be proven wrong. However, I will admit that sales have slowed more than I expected and we are not on any pace achieve my predictions. The once ounce coin has sold only 42 in the past month and the half ounce sold 27. Still at that pace these will eventually sell out. Just not as I thought.
Why? They were selling 2018 Platinum Eagles earlier this year. The mint can stand to leave the inventory on their shelves, especially at those markups.
No. His avatar shows him being put in PCGS jail which is usually a two week sentence. He should be out on 23 October. Forum members in PCGS jail used to be able to still post but apparently they changed the software so they are now being silenced. They can still be communicated with via PM though.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire