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Where is the Wheel Mark? 1956 25C FS-901 Type B
Maxvan1
Posts: 165 ✭✭✭
This got labeled as a wheel mark. This is now my second order where PCGS has labeled what I thought was the best coin as a damaged, wheel mark.
I really don't see a wheel mark on this one. And I mean, honestly, I go look at ValueView and compare the top 1956 TYB to this one... It's quite frustrating.
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Maybe on the upper right wing, under AME?
The linked NGC article in this thread shows some quarters which look very similar to yours.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1085676/wheel-mark-details
Often, wheel marks are difficult to detect unless the coin is held at just the right angle under good light. Consequently, in many cases they’re impossible to see just from an image.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Interesting 🙂
That's got to be very frustrating. I know I wouldn't be to happy myself. From the images as @MFeld said you cannot tell. If you rotate the coin slowly under light do you see any surface disturbance's?
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Its the Triangle mark on GW Head in the obverse.
The place on the reverse referenced above is a die Crack.
In my experience the wheel mark only bags when on the obverse.
That triangle mark could be traced to a reed on the side of another BU quarters.
I have a 1920 Buffalo Nickel that is stunning but bagged for wheel mark. Took me a week to find the doggone mark
I will try this again when I get home, but I didn't see it when I first looked.
I almost wonder if this coin (below) was supposed to be the wheel mark. I can see what appears to be a wheel mark directly through the E, running all the way down Washington's neck. I note that just one certificate away and not labeled as wheel mark...
No, the coin above you just posted does not have a wheel mark.
I highlighted where the wheel mark is on the 1st coin (259)
The coin ending 258 has die polish marks the lead to a pseudo PL appearance and the E does not have the same PL appearance hence a different appearance.
Loupe 259 on the head you will see the wheel mark.
From the article available on the NGC website about wheelmarks, you can find this article at this link. https://ngccoin.com/news/article/4412/Wheel-Marks/
"Wheel marks are a concentrated area of hairlines that are caused by the rubber wheels in coin counting machines."
I have circled two areas I suspect for the wheel marks, as already noted wheelmarks can be anywhere and are very difficult to locate in a static image.
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Interesting, I would think wheel marks would be on the high points of the coin as they are in relief and thus more exposed to a wheel friction.....
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I would like the location description of the damage that warrants details grades.
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Crack it and send it back in. I had a Lincoln cent in a PCGS holder that I sent in for a plus, twice. The second time it came back in a body bag "wheel mark."
The triangle mark is not a wheel mark.
A wheel mark is not from contact with other coins. A wheel mark is from a coin getting stuck in a coin counter and the rubber wheel leaving a shiny “burn mark”.
As @MFeld stated, they are only visible from the correct viewing angles.
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I believe this is what you're referring to? I don't think this is a wheel mark -- I think those are die scratches? They're raised and several other examples have the same...
I may send it to NGC for a second opinion.
UPDATE:
Note: Different coins, same feature.
I think I found them..........
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
That doesn’t look like a wheel mark.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As I said before this is the wheel mark.
I xan assure you... I have 30 wheel marked BU Washington quarters... I have studied them extensively. The mark in the hair is your wheel mark.
Not a wheel mark. I can post photos of that area later tonight. And yes, I know what I wheel mark looks like. I have several as well.
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Right, that looks more like a die crack.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
The FedEx truck tire variety.
Oh I forgot about this one.
THIS is a wheel mark.
THIS... You tell me. Wheel mark?
https://youtu.be/Z--3yrrwuQY
I guess I should post the comparison, too. The PCGS number is shown. MS64.
I am quoting MFeld's helpful comment in case you did not see it:
Be gone.
I just figured out this microscope has a secondary zoom. Here's a good angle on it. This is must be what they were seeing.
In most cases, in order to detect a wheel mark, you must tilt and rotate a coin just so. You didn’t appear to be doing that in your videos.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks Mark. Here's one where I tilt it and rotate it.
From my perspective, the die scratches look pretty darn close to a wheel mark. It would be an easy mistake...
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what I think -- it matters what a TPGS says. I'll have to resubmit it.
I watched a couple of minutes and didn't see a wheel mark. I doubt that the graders confused die scratches for a wheel mark.
Rather than resubmit the coin, do you have a local shop you can take it to? Or do you ever go to coin shows where you can show it and get a couple of opinions?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Who, me?
Thanks for the input. Appreciate the constructive responses. To be honest, I've only been into one coin shop and I've never been to a show. That's a good idea. I will do that.
Thank you!
Definitely a good idea.
tilt the coin 30-40% and then rotate it - don't focus so close to the coin with camera, it will probably be a large region a quarter inch wide
Oh, I think see it now. On the reverse. I've got three with the same wheel mark. :'( Damn counting machine...
Visible in the first seconds of the video. Wheel mark across the head. I would not recommend a resub.
That is not a wipe, it is indeed a wheel mark. You will not get those perfect deep directional hairlines like that any other way.
FYI Here's a 1968-D Kennedy with wheel mark damage...
ANACS had it at MS64. Crossed it to PCGS = Genuine UNC Details, 98 - Damage.
The right lighting revealed it...
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If that’s a wheel mark it’s not obvious to me. On the other hand, in the post above this one, the pictures of the 1968-D half dollar clearly show a wheel mark.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm telllllling ya! hahah
interesting that both slabs have a black dot to the right of the affected area
Oh wow you're right. I didn't even notice that! Good eye.
I wonder if that's for quality control or something?
Jmo, “Wheel mark” as a designation is a bit silly, and because it exists many coins get a details grade that shouldn’t.
A wheel mark is just a scuff that causes a luster break on an MS coin. Same with other scuffs and dings, they should collectively lower (net”) the MS grade. If it has to be lowered past MS60 it should be “details-damage”
Given the state of many straight-graded MS60 coins I’ve seen, almost no wheelmark scuffing actually rates a details designation.
Thoughts?
Typically, wheel marks don’t merely cause a luster break. They produce a patch of lines that look like intense wiping or cleaning.
@ Rc5280 posted some excellent pictures of a wheel mark in this thread - see below.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm not saying it's anything beyond normal die polishing or die deterioration, but just an interesting observation...
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This 1962 has very similar marks and is also slabbed as BU Details (Wheel Mark). The obverse fields have raised lines running S/SW to N/NE in field near Washington's forehead with particularly noticeable lines running to the bottom left of the L and to the bottom left of the B in LIBERTY. The reverses also have a very similar wheel mark-like patterns running N/NW to S/SE from the top left of the Eagle's left wing over the breast. The forehead of Washington also appears to have similar wheel mark-like lines. Could this possibly be from feeder fingers, or something like that?
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My 1962 order shipped yesterday. I'll be interested to compare with the 1956 wheel marks under a microscope...
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From what I understand, wheel mark damage happens when a coin gets stuck in a coin counting machine, in which the wheel (presumably a rubber product) rubs/spins against the highest points of the coin's devices?
I would think that even stuck for a second or two could cause some abrasive damage?
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I can see the wheel mark on the reverse here:
I see that too @Matt04. I can't help but notice those lines appear to run directly parallel with the lines over the wing and chest, both on that '62 and on the '56's.
Again, not saying it's anything other than as marked, but it's definitely something I'm going to look at and compare...
I am glad you finally know what to look for. It is frustrating spending $50 plus acquisition cost hoping for a 66 or higher and getting details
For many wheel marks it almost looks like someone took a swipe with the eraser end of a yellow pencil for a portion of the coin.
Yeah. The thing that has me puzzled is how can two wheel marks be identical? Wouldn't that mean they were fed into the counting machine the same way?
I'm also a little uncertain what it actually is. The the one I posted above (in the video with the Curb Your Enthusiasm music) PCGS called it wheel mark but CACG called it wiped. But then for these two, CACG called it wheel marked but PCGS called it cleaned! I suppose the cleaned/wiped ones could be both cleaned and wheel marked?
Not conclusions, just thoughts. Still a work in progress. Open for comments and questions.
The 1962 included in the photos is graded UNC details wheel marked. The API source is wrong.
Also, I will buy any Wheel Marked Type B Rev. Washington Quarters. The marked ones tend to be fresh off the polish.