The Who IS THE BEST discussion (whether it be sports, music, singing, dancing, acting, etc.) naturally has biases based upon the age of the person/persons who are participating the the discussion.
Ask me (I am a baby boomer born in 1956) and my answer would be different from the answer to the same question given by my son (32), my father (he would be 100 this coming November) and my maternal grandfather (he would be 156).
For example baseball. My son (if he followed the game) would likely say a current player. I would likely say a player from the late 1960s into the 1970's and early 1980's. My father would likely say Babe Ruth. My maternal grandfather would likely say Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson or Honus Wagner. Who is correct? Likely all four of us, as the answer derives from our own experience; and each of these players will never be able to compete against each other.
For soccer, I would say Pele (simply because I became aware of him in the 1970's and saw video of him playing, which convinced me he was so much better than anyone else playing the game with him that he had to be a Superman from planet Krypton (with powers far beyond those of mortal men). For more current players, including Messi, I do not follow the sport and do not have any understanding of how good they are.
Martinez and Alvarez and Fernandez are better than Messi right now on Argentina. If goals is the only stat that matters then Pele and Ronaldo both have more. I really don’t get the argument. Mbappe and Yamal and Bellington are better than Messi. Messi is playing great in the WC but that doesn’t make him the best player in the tournament. If you watch the game for accomplishment tallying you’re missing the sport for what it is and to compare WC goal totals tells me you don’t even realize that Messi is doing this with double the games. Back in the day there were fewer teams. Pele scored 12 goals in 14 games and Messi has 21 now in 31 games.
Messi was never the guy who created on his own. He works beautifully with his first touch.
Messi wore out the Brits by staying in position to eventually make plays that won the game. I don’t understand why they allowed Argentina to force the game into their end after scoring first. No urgency. They were begging for Messi to find a way to beat them.
So let me get this straight, stats dont matter and how long you dominate doesnt matter, Babe Ruth is the best baseball player of all time has nothing to do with a generational thing. Not a single person has put up any hard fact other than someone else said it. Bo Jackson was probably the best foootball and baseball player but he got hurt so hes not. Messi is 39 and the best player in the tournament still
Ronaldo is the only argument and Messi has separated himself and now they play each other in the WC final.
Ronaldo isn't Spanish
Here you go — leaning into the absurdity so nobody could mistake it for real:
🚨🇪🇸 OFFICIAL 🇪🇸🚨
The Royal Spanish Football Federation is delighted to announce the signing of CRISTIANO RONALDO, effective immediately.
In a move described by insiders as "geographically confusing," Ronaldo has agreed to represent La Roja. The 41-year-old has reportedly completed his Spanish citizenship in record time after a rigorous naturalization process consisting of ordering a single paella and correctly pronouncing "Barça."
"I have always felt Spanish in my heart," said Ronaldo, a man who has captained Portugal 200+ times and scored more international goals than any human in history for Portugal. "Also I do not know where Portugal is. Never heard of it."
Federation officials confirmed the number 7 shirt has been retired out of respect for Spain's actual players, and that Ronaldo will instead wear the number ∞.
Portugal, when reached for comment, said: "He's literally our captain. He's playing for us on Thursday. What are you talking about."
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Messi wore out the Brits by staying in position to eventually make plays that won the game. I don’t understand why they allowed Argentina to force the game into their end after scoring first. No urgency. They were begging for Messi to find a way to beat them.
They subbed a bunch of defenders in and Argentina did the opposite. Last 20ish minutes wasa shooting gallery. Argentina probably should have had like 6 goals, hit the post twice barely missed a few times. Im glad they won but the England goalie did make a couple really good saves
@Basebal21 said:
So let me get this straight, stats dont matter and how long you dominate doesnt matter, Babe Ruth is the best baseball player of all time has nothing to do with a generational thing. Not a single person has put up any hard fact other than someone else said it. Bo Jackson was probably the best foootball and baseball player but he got hurt so hes not. Messi is 39 and the best player in the tournament still
Stats do matter. Messi is one of the greatest players of his generation. So was Pele. You’re just not understanding the game they each played. You’re arguing who’s best or better and no one serious about soccer even cares about that question. There was a time when Messi could beat 3 or 4 guys in a space the size of a phone booth, create his own shots, and dominate a game. Those days are over. Now he’s an elite facilitator who still has the ability to finish the ball with a spectacular first touch being his signature. None of this makes him the best player in the World Cup or the best player in MLS or the best player of all time. He’s one of the greatest of his generation and that’s not a meaningless statement but there are other great players. There was much more of a gap between Pele and Garrincha and the rest of the sport than there ever was with Messi when he was at his best with Barcelona. I’m not saying anything negative about Messi here either and I really don’t understand why it’s so meaningful to you to take a strong position in this sport. The concept is ridiculous.
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Messi wore out the Brits by staying in position to eventually make plays that won the game. I don’t understand why they allowed Argentina to force the game into their end after scoring first. No urgency. They were begging for Messi to find a way to beat them.
They subbed a bunch of defenders in and Argentina did the opposite. Last 20ish minutes wasa shooting gallery. Argentina probably should have had like 6 goals, hit the post twice barely missed a few times. Im glad they won but the England goalie did make a couple really good saves
Yes, they hit a crossbar, a sidebar, and added a bunch of scoops of delicious attacks culminating in what resembled a pinball machine gone berserk.
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Messi wore out the Brits by staying in position to eventually make plays that won the game. I don’t understand why they allowed Argentina to force the game into their end after scoring first. No urgency. They were begging for Messi to find a way to beat them.
They subbed a bunch of defenders in and Argentina did the opposite. Last 20ish minutes wasa shooting gallery. Argentina probably should have had like 6 goals, hit the post twice barely missed a few times. Im glad they won but the England goalie did make a couple really good saves
Yes, they hit a crossbar, a sidebar, and added a bunch of scoops of delicious attacks culminating in what resembled a pinball machine gone berserk.
I havent played pinball in a minute but thats a good reference. My frist thought was like prevent defense in football where all it does is prevent you from winning and the other team just has their way with you while you try and run out the clock. The teams left are all too good to just try and run out 20+ minutes of time and not expect bad things to happen. Thats basically Argentinas MO anyways with late come backs.
@Basebal21 said:
So let me get this straight, stats dont matter and how long you dominate doesnt matter, Babe Ruth is the best baseball player of all time has nothing to do with a generational thing. Not a single person has put up any hard fact other than someone else said it. Bo Jackson was probably the best foootball and baseball player but he got hurt so hes not. Messi is 39 and the best player in the tournament still
Stats do matter. Messi is one of the greatest players of his generation. So was Pele. You’re just not understanding the game they each played. You’re arguing who’s best or better and no one serious about soccer even cares about that question. There was a time when Messi could beat 3 or 4 guys in a space the size of a phone booth, create his own shots, and dominate a game. Those days are over. Now he’s an elite facilitator who still has the ability to finish the ball with a spectacular first touch being his signature. None of this makes him the best player in the World Cup or the best player in MLS or the best player of all time. He’s one of the greatest of his generation and that’s not a meaningless statement but there are other great players. There was much more of a gap between Pele and Garrincha and the rest of the sport than there ever was with Messi when he was at his best with Barcelona. I’m not saying anything negative about Messi here either and I really don’t understand why it’s so meaningful to you to take a strong position in this sport. The concept is ridiculous.
Messi beat 3 England defenders multiple time in the game if you watched it. One of them even just body checked him and got a yellow card to stop him. Its not like baseball where theres been massive rule changes and players do have to be considered by generation.
Ive never said Pele wasnt an all time great but Messi is better
Let’s consider the rules that were changed because of Pele in the sport!
The game when Pele played is unrecognizable today. Tackles from behind where legal. Studs up challenges. English sexy soccer with the backpass and boot. You appear to be speaking without substance or experience.
Pele was mauled. South American soccer style exists today - Paraguay is a no-skill dirty player factory because of Pele. Watch the 1966 WC sometime Brasil vs Paraguay and tell me that’s the game you are watching today.
Total football wasn’t even a concept until the 80s. Teams were playing static shapes and man-marking we don’t see today. Lots of 4-2-4 and 4-5-1 shapes to protect stars like Pele.
None of this is meant to detract from Messi.
We have red and yellow cards today because of what happened to Pele in the 1966 World Cup.
@bgr said:
Let’s consider the rules that were changed because of Pele in the sport!
The game when Pele played is unrecognizable today. Tackles from behind where legal. Studs up challenges. English sexy soccer with the backpass and boot. You appear to be speaking without substance or experience.
Pele was mauled. South American soccer style exists today - Paraguay is a no-skill dirty player factory because of Pele. Watch the 1966 WC sometime Brasil vs Paraguay and tell me that’s the game you are watching today.
Total football wasn’t even a concept until the 80s. Teams were playing static shapes and man-marking we don’t see today. Lots of 4-2-4 and 4-5-1 shapes to protect stars like Pele.
None of this is meant to detract from Messi.
We have red and yellow cards today because of what happened to Pele in the 1966 World Cup.
The game has evolved to protect and reward skill.
Tackles from any angle are legal if its all ball
VAR is the biggest difference which calls back an insane amount of goals for minuscule distastes which it has been doing the WC to everyone, The one good thing it does is it can reverse the cards on who gets it when someone is taking a blatant dive.
@bgr said:
Let’s consider the rules that were changed because of Pele in the sport!
The game when Pele played is unrecognizable today. Tackles from behind where legal. Studs up challenges. English sexy soccer with the backpass and boot. You appear to be speaking without substance or experience.
Pele was mauled. South American soccer style exists today - Paraguay is a no-skill dirty player factory because of Pele. Watch the 1966 WC sometime Brasil vs Paraguay and tell me that’s the game you are watching today.
Total football wasn’t even a concept until the 80s. Teams were playing static shapes and man-marking we don’t see today. Lots of 4-2-4 and 4-5-1 shapes to protect stars like Pele.
None of this is meant to detract from Messi.
We have red and yellow cards today because of what happened to Pele in the 1966 World Cup.
The game has evolved to protect and reward skill.
Tackles from any angle are legal if its all ball
VAR is the biggest difference which calls back an insane amount of goals for minuscule distastes which it has been doing the WC to everyone, The one good thing it does is it can reverse the cards on who gets it when someone is taking a blatant dive.
Tackled from any angle are legal when they are legal. The directives and emphasis on tackles from behind in the 90s have changed the game significantly and that was the contention. The rule is still Rule 12 but it’s how the referee will enforce it and apply penalty.
VAR is a more recent example of changes in how Rule 12 is enforced.
I’m glad you’re taking such an interest in soccer.
Comparing different players from different eras, no matter what the sport, always gets back to the same thing for me: How would those players be affected by the rules in place in the other era?? Logic tells me that Messi would be adversely affected if he had to play with the rules in place from 1958-1970 and later. Conversely, I can't help but think Pele would really enjoy playing under the rules in place from 2006 to date.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I saw a piece on Messi today showing that he spends close to 2/3 of his time on the pitch just walking. They claimed that he’s actually running 4% of the time. Then they claimed his intelligence by managing his physical energy for the most important part of the game. Seems logical.
@bgr said:
Let’s consider the rules that were changed because of Pele in the sport!
The game when Pele played is unrecognizable today. Tackles from behind where legal. Studs up challenges. English sexy soccer with the backpass and boot. You appear to be speaking without substance or experience.
Pele was mauled. South American soccer style exists today - Paraguay is a no-skill dirty player factory because of Pele. Watch the 1966 WC sometime Brasil vs Paraguay and tell me that’s the game you are watching today.
Total football wasn’t even a concept until the 80s. Teams were playing static shapes and man-marking we don’t see today. Lots of 4-2-4 and 4-5-1 shapes to protect stars like Pele.
None of this is meant to detract from Messi.
We have red and yellow cards today because of what happened to Pele in the 1966 World Cup.
The game has evolved to protect and reward skill.
Tackles from any angle are legal if its all ball
VAR is the biggest difference which calls back an insane amount of goals for minuscule distastes which it has been doing the WC to everyone, The one good thing it does is it can reverse the cards on who gets it when someone is taking a blatant dive.
Tackled from any angle are legal when they are legal. The directives and emphasis on tackles from behind in the 90s have changed the game significantly and that was the contention. The rule is still Rule 12 but it’s how the referee will enforce it and apply penalty.
VAR is a more recent example of changes in how Rule 12 is enforced.
I’m glad you’re taking such an interest in soccer.
Ive always liked the WC and Fifa video games. Your just making things up at this point about tackles.
Im glad your being your condescending self as usual where you dig your heels in. Messi can still win a battle in a phone booth, beat three guys at once and would have had like 4 assists if Argentina wasnt hitting the post so much or missing by inches.
@bgr said:
Let’s consider the rules that were changed because of Pele in the sport!
The game when Pele played is unrecognizable today. Tackles from behind where legal. Studs up challenges. English sexy soccer with the backpass and boot. You appear to be speaking without substance or experience.
Pele was mauled. South American soccer style exists today - Paraguay is a no-skill dirty player factory because of Pele. Watch the 1966 WC sometime Brasil vs Paraguay and tell me that’s the game you are watching today.
Total football wasn’t even a concept until the 80s. Teams were playing static shapes and man-marking we don’t see today. Lots of 4-2-4 and 4-5-1 shapes to protect stars like Pele.
None of this is meant to detract from Messi.
We have red and yellow cards today because of what happened to Pele in the 1966 World Cup.
The game has evolved to protect and reward skill.
Tackles from any angle are legal if its all ball
VAR is the biggest difference which calls back an insane amount of goals for minuscule distastes which it has been doing the WC to everyone, The one good thing it does is it can reverse the cards on who gets it when someone is taking a blatant dive.
Tackled from any angle are legal when they are legal. The directives and emphasis on tackles from behind in the 90s have changed the game significantly and that was the contention. The rule is still Rule 12 but it’s how the referee will enforce it and apply penalty.
VAR is a more recent example of changes in how Rule 12 is enforced.
I’m glad you’re taking such an interest in soccer.
Ive always liked the WC and Fifa video games. Your just making things up at this point about tackles.
Im glad your being your condescending self as usual where you dig your heels in. Messi can still win a battle in a phone booth, beat three guys at once and would have had like 4 assists if Argentina wasnt hitting the post so much or missing by inches.
You were the guy who thought Ronaldo played for Spain who is now telling someone who played A League soccer that they are making things up about how the direction on tackles changed? Well you’re right. Messi is the best.
For anyone who might actually be interested in what I mean on tackles from behind - the direction of FIFA in the 90s changed from ball first to what happens immediately following and whether it was reckless or violent. I don’t remember the exact words but the 1998 WC was where this first influenced some games - plays from behind or dangerously from the side being considered as penalties where they previously had not been. The Ramos elbow in 94 caused a shift in enforcement in 98. The retaliations by guys like Zidane and Beckham might have been talking to vs sending off. The sport has changed since the 60s so to say that someone is the grand champion because of goals or whatever doesn’t move the needle for me. The bar was only so high and Pele cleared it with room to spare. Messi is great but they are different players. Is Messi better doesn’t even make sense. Better at what?
@bgr said:
Let’s consider the rules that were changed because of Pele in the sport!
The game when Pele played is unrecognizable today. Tackles from behind where legal. Studs up challenges. English sexy soccer with the backpass and boot. You appear to be speaking without substance or experience.
Pele was mauled. South American soccer style exists today - Paraguay is a no-skill dirty player factory because of Pele. Watch the 1966 WC sometime Brasil vs Paraguay and tell me that’s the game you are watching today.
Total football wasn’t even a concept until the 80s. Teams were playing static shapes and man-marking we don’t see today. Lots of 4-2-4 and 4-5-1 shapes to protect stars like Pele.
None of this is meant to detract from Messi.
We have red and yellow cards today because of what happened to Pele in the 1966 World Cup.
The game has evolved to protect and reward skill.
Tackles from any angle are legal if its all ball
VAR is the biggest difference which calls back an insane amount of goals for minuscule distastes which it has been doing the WC to everyone, The one good thing it does is it can reverse the cards on who gets it when someone is taking a blatant dive.
Tackled from any angle are legal when they are legal. The directives and emphasis on tackles from behind in the 90s have changed the game significantly and that was the contention. The rule is still Rule 12 but it’s how the referee will enforce it and apply penalty.
VAR is a more recent example of changes in how Rule 12 is enforced.
I’m glad you’re taking such an interest in soccer.
Ive always liked the WC and Fifa video games. Your just making things up at this point about tackles.
Im glad your being your condescending self as usual where you dig your heels in. Messi can still win a battle in a phone booth, beat three guys at once and would have had like 4 assists if Argentina wasnt hitting the post so much or missing by inches.
You were the guy who thought Ronaldo played for Spain who is now telling someone who played A League soccer that they are making things up about how the direction on tackles changed? Well you’re right. Messi is the best.
He played for Madrid for a long time. You got me there and had that debacle about taxes from Spain. Its not like Portugal is far away
Bad refs have always been a thing with only one on the field instead of one each side. Diving got so bad its now a card when you get caught
That’s another change in soccer you’re pointing out. When Pele played simulation was a thing - it’s as old as the game but there was less incentive to draw a penalty before there were cards to drag from pockets. In Italian academies they teach diving and train defenders how to avoid being called.
There are multiple referees per game and have been since the 60s. The assistants on the side who are also referred to as linesmen are assistant refs. And there’s a 4th official also to assist the center ref. VAR is the evolution of that.
Ronaldo wasn’t alone in his tax situation. Messi also ended up with a penalty along with many other star players after the loss of the “Beckham exemption” or whatever it was called. But you’re right that Portugal is a neighbor - my point was that I understand the game and I don’t think you have a basis to say otherwise. To a casual fan I can see why it looks like the same game - soccer is so popular because all you need is a ball. Throw down two goals and a little white paint and you have a pitch. Game looks the same. Why do we have VAR? Lots of reasons but simulation, as you say, is a main one. Why do we have simulation? Because drawing penalties gives you an advantage because of cards. Why do we have cards? Because Ken Aston developed his traffic light card system so clarify and record fouls. That came out of the same 1966 WC where Pele was targeted by teams - most notably the skill less nation of trash-ball called Portugal. Pele said he would never play another WC again because of what was allowed.
So what did FIFA do? They changed how the rules are interpreted and opened the door to the age of what we call total soccer. To protect the stars and grow the game and make the stars the brand.
And Pele changed his mind and returned in 1970 with his new Pumas and some protection. Good refs or bad refs the directives on rule 12 have changed and that’s not nothing. Read his book. He discusses it in detail. Tackles from behind against Portugal are what ended his 66 WC and why he vowed to never return… until FIFA changed the rule … and he returned.
Ronaldo definitely wasnt the only one caught up in that, I do remember Spain had a few years where anyone with money they went after. They tried to get Skakira too but she beat it.
Theres definitely no argument that Soccer is the biggest sport world wide and over a billion people will watch the final making the Super Bowl look like a high school game by comparison in ratings. Youre absolutely right about the fact that its the cheapest sport to get into and that countries and teams do teach their players to take dives especially in international games. Im glad to see that there is something being done to try and slow it down.
Yea there side refs but the guy on the field has the final say and a lot of times cant keep up with the play. The Argentina Switzerland game dude was never touched and took a dive. Initially it was a yellow on the Argentina player
Halftime on the pitch and no score. That in itself is why soccer is lost on the majority of Americans, as a whole we just perceive it as boring, too boring to watch. I accept that there’s a lot of action on any particular game but soccer isn’t well suited to how US sports fan want to be entertained.
In the rest of this Championship it’ll be exciting to see if Messi shows up and declares his dominance to take home the trophy. Standing around for 96 minutes won’t do it.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@Maywood said:
Argentina still hasn’t taken a shot, just ridiculous.
I don’t follow this sport at all, but how do you expect to win with zero offense?
Spain just scored. Argentina has shown no life at all aside from their goalie.
Ice hockey is far better than this.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
It’s pretty hard to defend an opinion that Messi is the soccer GOAT after a performance like this, but I’m sure the base bal gu will do exactly that. The talent on the Argentina team would seem to be the defenders and the goalie as they showed no offense whatsoever.
For Messi, the clock is ticking.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Yup, there he was just kinda standing around while waiting for his big moment as his aggressive teammates tried in vain to intimidate the Spaniards, who knew they would eventually break 'em down. NO SHOTS. Geez.
so I watched a soccer game (match) today for the first time in decades. my youngest wanted to watch, so we did. I realize there are nuance to the game i do not understand as well as strategy i do not understand. that said, it was the most boring 3 or so hours i have spent in a very very long time. it felt absolutely tedious to me. i could not wait for it to be over.
for the soccer fans out there, was this final game considered a good match? a great one? a boring one? it would be interesting for me to hear from a fan how well this match represented the game as a whole.
Maywood summed up my soccer viewership with his earlier comment.
that said, i am sure the rest of the world feels the same way about american football as i do about soccer. different strokes...
I thought it was a great game. Spain starved Messi of service all game. Cubarsi had one of the most complete games I’ve seen. They choked midfield with tight marking, quick rotations, and pressing all game. That crisp and tight rotation compresses the field in both directions and they stretched the distance between Messi and his midfield. Normally he can go deep to collect and distribute but as he did that Spain pressed up the field just moving him further from goal because Argentina couldn’t get access on the wings.
Argentina almost looked like the game plan was toi get to penalty kicks from the start. Spain definitely did make sure Messi couldnt do anything and even with that Argentina could have had two goals but once again missed the net both times.
The best player for this game was the Argentina goalie who kept them in it even with the early sub from injury and playing down a man for like 40 minutes from the red card
@Maywood said:
It’s pretty hard to defend an opinion that Messi is the soccer GOAT after a performance like this, but I’m sure the base bal gu will do exactly that. The talent on the Argentina team would seem to be the defenders and the goalie as they showed no offense whatsoever.
For Messi, the clock is ticking.
Messi is like Tom Brady at the end. Still, given the nature of this game, it’s hard for one player to dominate.
Still, if this general layout for a sport is your thing, I’ll take ice hockey.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
JMHO, but I think Messi has been overrated and will probably retire from World Cup play. Perhaps he still has the talent to compete, it just doesn’t seem like he really has an interest in playing.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@bgr said:
first time a pre-tourney favorite has won.
I thought it was a great game. Spain starved Messi of service all game. Cubarsi had one of the most complete games I’ve seen. They choked midfield with tight marking, quick rotations, and pressing all game. That crisp and tight rotation compresses the field in both directions and they stretched the distance between Messi and his midfield. Normally he can go deep to collect and distribute but as he did that Spain pressed up the field just moving him further from goal because Argentina couldn’t get access on the wings.
so this was considered a great game? sincerely asking from a non soccer watcher.
another thing that i noticed was the amount of players hitting the ground and covering their faces/writhing after what appeared to be minor "hits" there was only one pretty good collision that i can remember and even that would be considered very mild compared to an average NFL hit.
are the players that soft or are they flopping like in the nba?
@bgr said:
first time a pre-tourney favorite has won.
I thought it was a great game. Spain starved Messi of service all game. Cubarsi had one of the most complete games I’ve seen. They choked midfield with tight marking, quick rotations, and pressing all game. That crisp and tight rotation compresses the field in both directions and they stretched the distance between Messi and his midfield. Normally he can go deep to collect and distribute but as he did that Spain pressed up the field just moving him further from goal because Argentina couldn’t get access on the wings.
so this was considered a great game? sincerely asking from a non soccer watcher.
Like was it a classic? It was a great game played by Spain to which Argentina had no answer. Casuals want an ebb and flow - a trading of blows. Big goals. There’s a lot going on in the game but most people only notice the goals.
It was a great final which wasn’t a classic match. Great because of occasion, defensive craft, and the storyline of Messi on one side and Yamal on the other. Old and new.
Don’t sleep on the significance of how Spain played their high line on defense so well. That, and the performance of Martinez in goal, will be talked about for years.
@craig44, to your point of player reaction after hits, I think part of it is because there is no protection or equipment used, part of is because the players are nowhere close to be as physically fit as NFL players.
Two things about soccer that has always perplexed me: players who get hit/knocked down and thrash as though an attempt was just made on their life, any time a goal is scored and the reaction is as though fire has just been discovered.
But hey, the World seems to like it.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
It’s called simulation. While VAR is there to catch the no contact dives it doesn’t do anything for the weak foul which is exacerbated to look like a bullet was involved. You see a lot of in the WC because it’s the biggest stage and the incentives are the highest. Drawing cards and game management. You won’t see it as much in league play and that it is in such display in front of the largest audiences doesn’t help.
As far as being as physically fit as NFL players I would take that to the individual level. Most soccer players are going to develop their body for more endurance while football is a game of short bursts of explosive power. NFL isn’t a game of high activity. 5 second plays followed by 45 seconds of wandering. Then repeat. Getting dragged up and down the field for 30 mins in soccer you might run 5 miles.
Little hits at high speed are not incredibly violent but it’s common to lose footing. Then it’s the risk vs. reward - you got clipped so make it look like it was violent because violence on tackles is what draws cards. If you don’t you’re leaving advantage on the field. I’m not a fan of the subterfuge but if I was out there for country at the WC every blow would be the worst I ever felt. Just saying.
I've viewed soccer as a brutally physical game, which belies the notion that a quick shove in the back can render a player to paralysis only to jump up seconds later and feed a teammate for a goal. It's good theater. The reality is these guys are in pretty good shape to take a body blow or a shot to the face and keep going. I've witnessed enough of this sport to know - the one time I attended an Olympic Games match in '84, I witnessed 2 players colliding head-to-head and one of them didn't get up. I found out later he had a fractured skull. Ah, helmets.
@bgr said:
It’s called simulation. While VAR is there to catch the no contact dives it doesn’t do anything for the weak foul which is exacerbated to look like a bullet was involved. You see a lot of in the WC because it’s the biggest stage and the incentives are the highest. Drawing cards and game management. You won’t see it as much in league play and that it is in such display in front of the largest audiences doesn’t help.
As far as being as physically fit as NFL players I would take that to the individual level. Most soccer players are going to develop their body for more endurance while football is a game of short bursts of explosive power. NFL isn’t a game of high activity. 5 second plays followed by 45 seconds of wandering. Then repeat. Getting dragged up and down the field for 30 mins in soccer you might run 5 miles.
Little hits at high speed are not incredibly violent but it’s common to lose footing. Then it’s the risk vs. reward - you got clipped so make it look like it was violent because violence on tackles is what draws cards. If you don’t you’re leaving advantage on the field. I’m not a fan of the subterfuge but if I was out there for country at the WC every blow would be the worst I ever felt. Just saying.
So am i understanding it correctly that "simulation" is synonymous with flopping? Because from what i saw yesterday, either those guys are butter soft practically crying on the field or they are flopping and looking for calls.
I think soccer players are very fit, just trained differently than nfl players. I would say they are certainly not the physical specimens many nfl players are.
The hitting in NFL is not to be compared with what i saw yesterday. It is a different world for sure
@bgr said:
It’s called simulation. While VAR is there to catch the no contact dives it doesn’t do anything for the weak foul which is exacerbated to look like a bullet was involved. You see a lot of in the WC because it’s the biggest stage and the incentives are the highest. Drawing cards and game management. You won’t see it as much in league play and that it is in such display in front of the largest audiences doesn’t help.
As far as being as physically fit as NFL players I would take that to the individual level. Most soccer players are going to develop their body for more endurance while football is a game of short bursts of explosive power. NFL isn’t a game of high activity. 5 second plays followed by 45 seconds of wandering. Then repeat. Getting dragged up and down the field for 30 mins in soccer you might run 5 miles.
Little hits at high speed are not incredibly violent but it’s common to lose footing. Then it’s the risk vs. reward - you got clipped so make it look like it was violent because violence on tackles is what draws cards. If you don’t you’re leaving advantage on the field. I’m not a fan of the subterfuge but if I was out there for country at the WC every blow would be the worst I ever felt. Just saying.
So am i understanding it correctly that "simulation" is synonymous with flopping? Because from what i saw yesterday, either those guys are butter soft practically crying on the field or they are flopping and looking for calls.
I think soccer players are very fit, just trained differently than nfl players. I would say they are certainly not the physical specimens many nfl players are.
The hitting in NFL is not to be compared with what i saw yesterday. It is a different world for sure
Not quite. Simulation can be manipulating the game by diving or it can be the effort in making it look worse than it was. Both are used for the same tactical purpose. Most fouls are fouls though and the writing in pain can be a bit of a reaction to actual pain vs. milking it for effect - the hope of drawing a card or more attention. It would be different from flopping in the aspect that... most of the actual fouls which end up with a player rolling for days... are real fouls where no one is keeping their balance so you're going down and your job is to make it look worse than it was. versus going down with no contact or weak contact which I would call flopping, but these are pretty subjective terms and it is what it is.
what i find interesting is people having a difficult time appreciating soccer due to the lack of scoring, yet when it comes to American sports that same scenario is suddenly disgestible. imagine if the '85 Bears had given up zero points that season -- if you thought that unit was in the pantheon before, just imagine if they had dished out a clean sheet every week. the next time i hear someone say, "i couldn't stomach watching a Chicago Bears game in 85/86 because they prevented the other team from scoring in bunches and therefore made the product unwatchable"........it'll be the very first time. Spain was the '85 Bears the entire World Cup. it was a master class in defense for 7 games. i for one appreciated the pop tarts out of it.
then we go to the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
if goals are what you desire, the 3rd place game was your wettest of dreams. for me, it was like staring at Medusa's head. i wondered not if, but when i was going to turn to stone. two teams that didn't want to be there, putting forth far less than max effort to prevent the opposition from scoring. know what it reminded me of? the NBA all-star game. quick, name one person with a pulse who can't proceed in life without the NBA all-star game. i'll hang up now and listen. 350 combined points. wonderful. it's a 350-point abomination. just like the preposterous 10-goal display that England & France produced a couple of days ago. no thank you very much.
@bgr said:
It’s called simulation. While VAR is there to catch the no contact dives it doesn’t do anything for the weak foul which is exacerbated to look like a bullet was involved. You see a lot of in the WC because it’s the biggest stage and the incentives are the highest. Drawing cards and game management. You won’t see it as much in league play and that it is in such display in front of the largest audiences doesn’t help.
As far as being as physically fit as NFL players I would take that to the individual level. Most soccer players are going to develop their body for more endurance while football is a game of short bursts of explosive power. NFL isn’t a game of high activity. 5 second plays followed by 45 seconds of wandering. Then repeat. Getting dragged up and down the field for 30 mins in soccer you might run 5 miles.
Little hits at high speed are not incredibly violent but it’s common to lose footing. Then it’s the risk vs. reward - you got clipped so make it look like it was violent because violence on tackles is what draws cards. If you don’t you’re leaving advantage on the field. I’m not a fan of the subterfuge but if I was out there for country at the WC every blow would be the worst I ever felt. Just saying.
So am i understanding it correctly that "simulation" is synonymous with flopping? Because from what i saw yesterday, either those guys are butter soft practically crying on the field or they are flopping and looking for calls.
I think soccer players are very fit, just trained differently than nfl players. I would say they are certainly not the physical specimens many nfl players are.
The hitting in NFL is not to be compared with what i saw yesterday. It is a different world for sure
Not quite. Simulation can be manipulating the game by diving or it can be the effort in making it look worse than it was. Both are used for the same tactical purpose. Most fouls are fouls though and the writing in pain can be a bit of a reaction to actual pain vs. milking it for effect - the hope of drawing a card or more attention. It would be different from flopping in the aspect that... most of the actual fouls which end up with a player rolling for days... are real fouls where no one is keeping their balance so you're going down and your job is to make it look worse than it was. versus going down with no contact or weak contact which I would call flopping, but these are pretty subjective terms and it is what it is.
sounds exactly like flopping to me. I would agree with you that it seems they are "milking it for effect" trying to get the officials to call a foul
the contact i saw yesterday, with the exception of one clip, was very very mild compared to what i am used to seeing in american football, and most of the time those players are popping up immediately after the contact. It almost looked like some of the players yesterday were in tears and covering their faces. i am not sure about it because i couldnt see their eyes, but my 10 year old actually asked me if the players were crying at one point
i also find it strange that they do not stop the clock after goals or when the ball goes out of bounds. apparently one official has a stop watch or some such thing and tells the time keeper how much extra time to add at the end of the half.
oh, and they count the clock up to 45 minutes instead of down to 45 minutes.
it was interesting to watch. at least for awhile...
Comments
The Who IS THE BEST discussion (whether it be sports, music, singing, dancing, acting, etc.) naturally has biases based upon the age of the person/persons who are participating the the discussion.
Ask me (I am a baby boomer born in 1956) and my answer would be different from the answer to the same question given by my son (32), my father (he would be 100 this coming November) and my maternal grandfather (he would be 156).
For example baseball. My son (if he followed the game) would likely say a current player. I would likely say a player from the late 1960s into the 1970's and early 1980's. My father would likely say Babe Ruth. My maternal grandfather would likely say Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson or Honus Wagner. Who is correct? Likely all four of us, as the answer derives from our own experience; and each of these players will never be able to compete against each other.
For soccer, I would say Pele (simply because I became aware of him in the 1970's and saw video of him playing, which convinced me he was so much better than anyone else playing the game with him that he had to be a Superman from planet Krypton (with powers far beyond those of mortal men). For more current players, including Messi, I do not follow the sport and do not have any understanding of how good they are.
Now he’s an expert in soccer too. Cool.
I bet he drives slow in the fast lane.
Martinez and Alvarez and Fernandez are better than Messi right now on Argentina. If goals is the only stat that matters then Pele and Ronaldo both have more. I really don’t get the argument. Mbappe and Yamal and Bellington are better than Messi. Messi is playing great in the WC but that doesn’t make him the best player in the tournament. If you watch the game for accomplishment tallying you’re missing the sport for what it is and to compare WC goal totals tells me you don’t even realize that Messi is doing this with double the games. Back in the day there were fewer teams. Pele scored 12 goals in 14 games and Messi has 21 now in 31 games.
Messi was never the guy who created on his own. He works beautifully with his first touch.
Messi wore out the Brits by staying in position to eventually make plays that won the game. I don’t understand why they allowed Argentina to force the game into their end after scoring first. No urgency. They were begging for Messi to find a way to beat them.
So let me get this straight, stats dont matter and how long you dominate doesnt matter, Babe Ruth is the best baseball player of all time has nothing to do with a generational thing. Not a single person has put up any hard fact other than someone else said it. Bo Jackson was probably the best foootball and baseball player but he got hurt so hes not. Messi is 39 and the best player in the tournament still
Fire AJ Preller
Here you go — leaning into the absurdity so nobody could mistake it for real:
🚨🇪🇸 OFFICIAL 🇪🇸🚨
The Royal Spanish Football Federation is delighted to announce the signing of CRISTIANO RONALDO, effective immediately.
In a move described by insiders as "geographically confusing," Ronaldo has agreed to represent La Roja. The 41-year-old has reportedly completed his Spanish citizenship in record time after a rigorous naturalization process consisting of ordering a single paella and correctly pronouncing "Barça."
"I have always felt Spanish in my heart," said Ronaldo, a man who has captained Portugal 200+ times and scored more international goals than any human in history for Portugal. "Also I do not know where Portugal is. Never heard of it."
Federation officials confirmed the number 7 shirt has been retired out of respect for Spain's actual players, and that Ronaldo will instead wear the number ∞.
Portugal, when reached for comment, said: "He's literally our captain. He's playing for us on Thursday. What are you talking about."
They subbed a bunch of defenders in and Argentina did the opposite. Last 20ish minutes wasa shooting gallery. Argentina probably should have had like 6 goals, hit the post twice barely missed a few times. Im glad they won but the England goalie did make a couple really good saves
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Stats do matter. Messi is one of the greatest players of his generation. So was Pele. You’re just not understanding the game they each played. You’re arguing who’s best or better and no one serious about soccer even cares about that question. There was a time when Messi could beat 3 or 4 guys in a space the size of a phone booth, create his own shots, and dominate a game. Those days are over. Now he’s an elite facilitator who still has the ability to finish the ball with a spectacular first touch being his signature. None of this makes him the best player in the World Cup or the best player in MLS or the best player of all time. He’s one of the greatest of his generation and that’s not a meaningless statement but there are other great players. There was much more of a gap between Pele and Garrincha and the rest of the sport than there ever was with Messi when he was at his best with Barcelona. I’m not saying anything negative about Messi here either and I really don’t understand why it’s so meaningful to you to take a strong position in this sport. The concept is ridiculous.
Yes, they hit a crossbar, a sidebar, and added a bunch of scoops of delicious attacks culminating in what resembled a pinball machine gone berserk.
I havent played pinball in a minute but thats a good reference. My frist thought was like prevent defense in football where all it does is prevent you from winning and the other team just has their way with you while you try and run out the clock. The teams left are all too good to just try and run out 20+ minutes of time and not expect bad things to happen. Thats basically Argentinas MO anyways with late come backs.
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Messi beat 3 England defenders multiple time in the game if you watched it. One of them even just body checked him and got a yellow card to stop him. Its not like baseball where theres been massive rule changes and players do have to be considered by generation.
Ive never said Pele wasnt an all time great but Messi is better
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Let’s consider the rules that were changed because of Pele in the sport!
The game when Pele played is unrecognizable today. Tackles from behind where legal. Studs up challenges. English sexy soccer with the backpass and boot. You appear to be speaking without substance or experience.
Pele was mauled. South American soccer style exists today - Paraguay is a no-skill dirty player factory because of Pele. Watch the 1966 WC sometime Brasil vs Paraguay and tell me that’s the game you are watching today.
Total football wasn’t even a concept until the 80s. Teams were playing static shapes and man-marking we don’t see today. Lots of 4-2-4 and 4-5-1 shapes to protect stars like Pele.
None of this is meant to detract from Messi.
We have red and yellow cards today because of what happened to Pele in the 1966 World Cup.
The game has evolved to protect and reward skill.
The true Word Cup
Tackles from any angle are legal if its all ball
VAR is the biggest difference which calls back an insane amount of goals for minuscule distastes which it has been doing the WC to everyone, The one good thing it does is it can reverse the cards on who gets it when someone is taking a blatant dive.
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Tackled from any angle are legal when they are legal. The directives and emphasis on tackles from behind in the 90s have changed the game significantly and that was the contention. The rule is still Rule 12 but it’s how the referee will enforce it and apply penalty.
VAR is a more recent example of changes in how Rule 12 is enforced.
I’m glad you’re taking such an interest in soccer.
Comparing different players from different eras, no matter what the sport, always gets back to the same thing for me: How would those players be affected by the rules in place in the other era?? Logic tells me that Messi would be adversely affected if he had to play with the rules in place from 1958-1970 and later. Conversely, I can't help but think Pele would really enjoy playing under the rules in place from 2006 to date.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I saw a piece on Messi today showing that he spends close to 2/3 of his time on the pitch just walking. They claimed that he’s actually running 4% of the time. Then they claimed his intelligence by managing his physical energy for the most important part of the game. Seems logical.
Ive always liked the WC and Fifa video games. Your just making things up at this point about tackles.
Im glad your being your condescending self as usual where you dig your heels in. Messi can still win a battle in a phone booth, beat three guys at once and would have had like 4 assists if Argentina wasnt hitting the post so much or missing by inches.
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You were the guy who thought Ronaldo played for Spain who is now telling someone who played A League soccer that they are making things up about how the direction on tackles changed? Well you’re right. Messi is the best.
For anyone who might actually be interested in what I mean on tackles from behind - the direction of FIFA in the 90s changed from ball first to what happens immediately following and whether it was reckless or violent. I don’t remember the exact words but the 1998 WC was where this first influenced some games - plays from behind or dangerously from the side being considered as penalties where they previously had not been. The Ramos elbow in 94 caused a shift in enforcement in 98. The retaliations by guys like Zidane and Beckham might have been talking to vs sending off. The sport has changed since the 60s so to say that someone is the grand champion because of goals or whatever doesn’t move the needle for me. The bar was only so high and Pele cleared it with room to spare. Messi is great but they are different players. Is Messi better doesn’t even make sense. Better at what?
He played for Madrid for a long time. You got me there and had that debacle about taxes from Spain. Its not like Portugal is far away
Bad refs have always been a thing with only one on the field instead of one each side. Diving got so bad its now a card when you get caught
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That’s another change in soccer you’re pointing out. When Pele played simulation was a thing - it’s as old as the game but there was less incentive to draw a penalty before there were cards to drag from pockets. In Italian academies they teach diving and train defenders how to avoid being called.
There are multiple referees per game and have been since the 60s. The assistants on the side who are also referred to as linesmen are assistant refs. And there’s a 4th official also to assist the center ref. VAR is the evolution of that.
Ronaldo wasn’t alone in his tax situation. Messi also ended up with a penalty along with many other star players after the loss of the “Beckham exemption” or whatever it was called. But you’re right that Portugal is a neighbor - my point was that I understand the game and I don’t think you have a basis to say otherwise. To a casual fan I can see why it looks like the same game - soccer is so popular because all you need is a ball. Throw down two goals and a little white paint and you have a pitch. Game looks the same. Why do we have VAR? Lots of reasons but simulation, as you say, is a main one. Why do we have simulation? Because drawing penalties gives you an advantage because of cards. Why do we have cards? Because Ken Aston developed his traffic light card system so clarify and record fouls. That came out of the same 1966 WC where Pele was targeted by teams - most notably the skill less nation of trash-ball called Portugal. Pele said he would never play another WC again because of what was allowed.
So what did FIFA do? They changed how the rules are interpreted and opened the door to the age of what we call total soccer. To protect the stars and grow the game and make the stars the brand.
And Pele changed his mind and returned in 1970 with his new Pumas and some protection. Good refs or bad refs the directives on rule 12 have changed and that’s not nothing. Read his book. He discusses it in detail. Tackles from behind against Portugal are what ended his 66 WC and why he vowed to never return… until FIFA changed the rule … and he returned.
Anybody watch the France v. England slugfest? Glad I did. Most interested I've been in a soccer game since my kids played.
Ronaldo definitely wasnt the only one caught up in that, I do remember Spain had a few years where anyone with money they went after. They tried to get Skakira too but she beat it.
Theres definitely no argument that Soccer is the biggest sport world wide and over a billion people will watch the final making the Super Bowl look like a high school game by comparison in ratings. Youre absolutely right about the fact that its the cheapest sport to get into and that countries and teams do teach their players to take dives especially in international games. Im glad to see that there is something being done to try and slow it down.
Yea there side refs but the guy on the field has the final say and a lot of times cant keep up with the play. The Argentina Switzerland game dude was never touched and took a dive. Initially it was a yellow on the Argentina player
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Halftime on the pitch and no score. That in itself is why soccer is lost on the majority of Americans, as a whole we just perceive it as boring, too boring to watch. I accept that there’s a lot of action on any particular game but soccer isn’t well suited to how US sports fan want to be entertained.
In the rest of this Championship it’ll be exciting to see if Messi shows up and declares his dominance to take home the trophy. Standing around for 96 minutes won’t do it.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Argentina still hasn’t taken a shot, just ridiculous.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I don’t follow this sport at all, but how do you expect to win with zero offense?
Spain just scored. Argentina has shown no life at all aside from their goalie.
Ice hockey is far better than this.
Congrats to 🇪🇸
the score was 1-0, but that was total domination
they were just waiting for the dam to break
suffocating D from Spain today and throughout the World Cup
they gave up one goal in 7 games
It’s pretty hard to defend an opinion that Messi is the soccer GOAT after a performance like this, but I’m sure the base bal gu will do exactly that. The talent on the Argentina team would seem to be the defenders and the goalie as they showed no offense whatsoever.
For Messi, the clock is ticking.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Yup, there he was just kinda standing around while waiting for his big moment as his aggressive teammates tried in vain to intimidate the Spaniards, who knew they would eventually break 'em down. NO SHOTS. Geez.
so I watched a soccer game (match) today for the first time in decades. my youngest wanted to watch, so we did. I realize there are nuance to the game i do not understand as well as strategy i do not understand. that said, it was the most boring 3 or so hours i have spent in a very very long time. it felt absolutely tedious to me. i could not wait for it to be over.
for the soccer fans out there, was this final game considered a good match? a great one? a boring one? it would be interesting for me to hear from a fan how well this match represented the game as a whole.
Maywood summed up my soccer viewership with his earlier comment.
that said, i am sure the rest of the world feels the same way about american football as i do about soccer. different strokes...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have revised my list of Top Three boring events:
1. Watching paint dry.
2. Any soccer game.
3. A 1-0 MLB pitchers duel.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Crummy sporting events are universal. There's plenty of them and still we watch, because we're sportsaholics. Pass the bottle.
first time a pre-tourney favorite has won.
I thought it was a great game. Spain starved Messi of service all game. Cubarsi had one of the most complete games I’ve seen. They choked midfield with tight marking, quick rotations, and pressing all game. That crisp and tight rotation compresses the field in both directions and they stretched the distance between Messi and his midfield. Normally he can go deep to collect and distribute but as he did that Spain pressed up the field just moving him further from goal because Argentina couldn’t get access on the wings.
Argentina almost looked like the game plan was toi get to penalty kicks from the start. Spain definitely did make sure Messi couldnt do anything and even with that Argentina could have had two goals but once again missed the net both times.
The best player for this game was the Argentina goalie who kept them in it even with the early sub from injury and playing down a man for like 40 minutes from the red card
Fire AJ Preller
Messi is like Tom Brady at the end. Still, given the nature of this game, it’s hard for one player to dominate.
Still, if this general layout for a sport is your thing, I’ll take ice hockey.
JMHO, but I think Messi has been overrated and will probably retire from World Cup play. Perhaps he still has the talent to compete, it just doesn’t seem like he really has an interest in playing.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
so this was considered a great game? sincerely asking from a non soccer watcher.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
another thing that i noticed was the amount of players hitting the ground and covering their faces/writhing after what appeared to be minor "hits" there was only one pretty good collision that i can remember and even that would be considered very mild compared to an average NFL hit.
are the players that soft or are they flopping like in the nba?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Like was it a classic? It was a great game played by Spain to which Argentina had no answer. Casuals want an ebb and flow - a trading of blows. Big goals. There’s a lot going on in the game but most people only notice the goals.
It was a great final which wasn’t a classic match. Great because of occasion, defensive craft, and the storyline of Messi on one side and Yamal on the other. Old and new.
Don’t sleep on the significance of how Spain played their high line on defense so well. That, and the performance of Martinez in goal, will be talked about for years.
@craig44, to your point of player reaction after hits, I think part of it is because there is no protection or equipment used, part of is because the players are nowhere close to be as physically fit as NFL players.
Two things about soccer that has always perplexed me: players who get hit/knocked down and thrash as though an attempt was just made on their life, any time a goal is scored and the reaction is as though fire has just been discovered.
But hey, the World seems to like it.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
It’s called simulation. While VAR is there to catch the no contact dives it doesn’t do anything for the weak foul which is exacerbated to look like a bullet was involved. You see a lot of in the WC because it’s the biggest stage and the incentives are the highest. Drawing cards and game management. You won’t see it as much in league play and that it is in such display in front of the largest audiences doesn’t help.
As far as being as physically fit as NFL players I would take that to the individual level. Most soccer players are going to develop their body for more endurance while football is a game of short bursts of explosive power. NFL isn’t a game of high activity. 5 second plays followed by 45 seconds of wandering. Then repeat. Getting dragged up and down the field for 30 mins in soccer you might run 5 miles.
Little hits at high speed are not incredibly violent but it’s common to lose footing. Then it’s the risk vs. reward - you got clipped so make it look like it was violent because violence on tackles is what draws cards. If you don’t you’re leaving advantage on the field. I’m not a fan of the subterfuge but if I was out there for country at the WC every blow would be the worst I ever felt. Just saying.
I've viewed soccer as a brutally physical game, which belies the notion that a quick shove in the back can render a player to paralysis only to jump up seconds later and feed a teammate for a goal. It's good theater. The reality is these guys are in pretty good shape to take a body blow or a shot to the face and keep going. I've witnessed enough of this sport to know - the one time I attended an Olympic Games match in '84, I witnessed 2 players colliding head-to-head and one of them didn't get up. I found out later he had a fractured skull. Ah, helmets.
So am i understanding it correctly that "simulation" is synonymous with flopping? Because from what i saw yesterday, either those guys are butter soft practically crying on the field or they are flopping and looking for calls.
I think soccer players are very fit, just trained differently than nfl players. I would say they are certainly not the physical specimens many nfl players are.
The hitting in NFL is not to be compared with what i saw yesterday. It is a different world for sure
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Not quite. Simulation can be manipulating the game by diving or it can be the effort in making it look worse than it was. Both are used for the same tactical purpose. Most fouls are fouls though and the writing in pain can be a bit of a reaction to actual pain vs. milking it for effect - the hope of drawing a card or more attention. It would be different from flopping in the aspect that... most of the actual fouls which end up with a player rolling for days... are real fouls where no one is keeping their balance so you're going down and your job is to make it look worse than it was. versus going down with no contact or weak contact which I would call flopping, but these are pretty subjective terms and it is what it is.
what i find interesting is people having a difficult time appreciating soccer due to the lack of scoring, yet when it comes to American sports that same scenario is suddenly disgestible. imagine if the '85 Bears had given up zero points that season -- if you thought that unit was in the pantheon before, just imagine if they had dished out a clean sheet every week. the next time i hear someone say, "i couldn't stomach watching a Chicago Bears game in 85/86 because they prevented the other team from scoring in bunches and therefore made the product unwatchable"........it'll be the very first time. Spain was the '85 Bears the entire World Cup. it was a master class in defense for 7 games. i for one appreciated the pop tarts out of it.
then we go to the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
if goals are what you desire, the 3rd place game was your wettest of dreams. for me, it was like staring at Medusa's head. i wondered not if, but when i was going to turn to stone. two teams that didn't want to be there, putting forth far less than max effort to prevent the opposition from scoring. know what it reminded me of? the NBA all-star game. quick, name one person with a pulse who can't proceed in life without the NBA all-star game. i'll hang up now and listen. 350 combined points. wonderful. it's a 350-point abomination. just like the preposterous 10-goal display that England & France produced a couple of days ago. no thank you very much.
sounds exactly like flopping to me. I would agree with you that it seems they are "milking it for effect" trying to get the officials to call a foul
the contact i saw yesterday, with the exception of one clip, was very very mild compared to what i am used to seeing in american football, and most of the time those players are popping up immediately after the contact. It almost looked like some of the players yesterday were in tears and covering their faces. i am not sure about it because i couldnt see their eyes, but my 10 year old actually asked me if the players were crying at one point
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
i also find it strange that they do not stop the clock after goals or when the ball goes out of bounds. apparently one official has a stop watch or some such thing and tells the time keeper how much extra time to add at the end of the half.
oh, and they count the clock up to 45 minutes instead of down to 45 minutes.
it was interesting to watch. at least for awhile...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.