@DoubleEagle59 said:
"idiots" is very strong, but I agree that I have never understood the high value in low grade coins.
To me, it's like collecting the rustiest classic car or the stamp with the heaviest cancel and with the most torn perforations.
There are just so many aspects and variables to coin collecting. A true straight graded PO-1 is a challenge to find. I think I saw somewhere here once, a guy putting together a complete 7070 with all graded PO-1's.
I would be wary of putting money into items that don’t necessarily have ability to maintain long term value. High grade certified PCGS coins will always be in demand and retain all or much of their value over time
That's just a guess on your part.
Why? I am employing logic. Collecting PO-1 is like investing in Dutch tulips or crypto
No, you are applying selective, faulty logic. Collecting all coins is like investing in Dutch tulips or crypto. Other than the melt value, there is nothing inherently valuable in highly graded coins. Just supply and demand.
There is nothing special about highly graded PCGS certified coins in terms of "always in demand". There is no guarantee of that. The people who thought so have gotten absolutely destroyed during various numismatic bear markets.
@DoubleEagle59 said:
"idiots" is very strong, but I agree that I have never understood the high value in low grade coins.
To me, it's like collecting the rustiest classic car or the stamp with the heaviest cancel and with the most torn perforations.
There are just so many aspects and variables to coin collecting. A true straight graded PO-1 is a challenge to find. I think I saw somewhere here once, a guy putting together a complete 7070 with all graded PO-1's.
I would be wary of putting money into items that don’t necessarily have ability to maintain long term value. High grade certified PCGS coins will always be in demand and retain all or much of their value over time
That's just a guess on your part.
Why? I am employing logic. Collecting PO-1 is like investing in Dutch tulips or crypto
No, you are applying selective, faulty logic. Collecting all coins is like investing in Dutch tulips or crypto. Other than the melt value, there is nothing inherently valuable in highly graded coins. Just supply and demand.
There is nothing special about highly graded PCGS certified coins in terms of "always in demand". There is no guarantee of that. The people who thought so have gotten absolutely destroyed during various numismatic bear markets.
Even the melt value isn’t guaranteed. It’s a hobby for Pete’s sake.
@logger7 said:
I'm still wondering how people "wear down" coins; I asked at a shop whether baking soda or polishing compound would bring a coin that had ugly surfaces to market acceptable at a lower level and he said you'd just get scratched looking surfaces. Maybe I'll try some pocket change.
It’s rather easy. I had a 1941 walking half which I carried around as a pocket piece for years. Within that time it wore down from a VF down to a Fair-AG with just the 1 in the date visible. It’s been long lost, but it may turn up in a 90% junk bin some day.
@MasonG said:
If I'm reading the pop report right, there are 57 FR1 & FR2 1964 Kennedy halfs but zero 1964 Washington quarters.
How does that happen? Neither saw much circulation but the quarters definitely saw more than the halfs, which pretty much got put away as soon as they were received.
Absolutely correct! Quarters and dimes circulated non-stop, but the 64’s were plucked out of circulation right away, but the Kennedy’s which essentially didn’t circulate wore down to Fair??
@skier07 said:
Half dollars were used extensively in Las Vegas at the blackjack and poker tables. Blackjack pays 3:2. If someone bets $5 they would win $7.50. In poker they were either the ante or rake.
Yes, they were. And once clads showed up in the early 70's, the silver ones disappeared.
Do half dollars wear down to Fair in seven or eight years? There would be bucketloads of low-grade clad Kennedys out there if they did.
@MasonG said:
Do half dollars wear down to Fair in seven or eight years? There would be bucketloads of low-grade clad Kennedys out there if they did.
Have you looked at the bags of 40%? Only about one third of them can be considered "G or better". The coins all have at least a little wear and even the BU rolls that were dumped in over the past 50 years have kicked around so much that they tend to be only sliders at best. The bulk of them are VF to AU-50 but are beaten to death and most are stained and corroded. Attrition is very high because these have been assembled into bags and melted since August of '79 and continually since 2008.
I rarely see a 40% with honest wear below F but there are lots of VF's. Nice chBU are much tougher than most realize because BU 40% rolls are gathered up by dealers to ship to the refiners every time silver spikes higher. There weren't so many to start with and a lot of the survivors are poorly made, unattractive, and tarnished.
'65 half dollars often circulated until about 1972 or so when usage began ratcheting lower. Circulation of all halfs was quite low during the bicentennial and then virtually ceased about 1981. There are wholesale buyers for nice looking 40% and for all the clads in AU. Prices are subdued and AU's in rolls tend to be unusual.
80% silver is soft so the old silver clad wore quickly.
Regarding Kennedy half dollars, once again, these are probably pocket pieces. I would guess several decades of constant wear to create a modern slick. I have heard that some foreign countries use US coins extensively, dollars anyway, perhaps half’s as well.
@oldabeintx said:
Regarding Kennedy half dollars, once again, these are probably pocket pieces. I would guess several decades of constant wear to create a modern slick. I have heard that some foreign counties use US coins extensively, dollars anyway, perhaps half’s as well.
I'm glad you mentioned that creating a modern slick would require decades and not just years. Shared this before but this Peace dollar car chain was used by my dad from the 60's and I'm been using for over 30 years. It was either BU or high end AU when my dad got it drilled and started using. I will be long gone for it to get to P01/F02 shape.
I agree folks should collect what they want and supply/demand will set the price. But I'm not a fan of modern slicks, even if not artificially worn with a tumbler, as they look too white. Unmessed with classic coin that were used extensively usually all have that nice dark patina from use in commerce that moderns can not replicate.
Pogue likely thought the two above were simply interesting. I don’t recall other than those two in the sale of his collection. I don’t collect Lowballs, but I find them interesting as well. So odd to see a commem circulate that extensively. Had to have been someone’s pocket piece. The Fugio is just cool, great piece of history.
@oldabeintx said:
Pogue likely thought the two above were simply interesting. I don’t recall other than those two in the sale of his collection. I don’t collect Lowballs, but I find them interesting as well. So odd to see a commem circulate that extensively. Had to have been someone’s pocket piece. The Fugio is just cool, great piece of history.
He actually collected lowballs and had a lowball type set that was sold by Stack's along with his high grade type set. These two are part of that larger set.
@DoubleEagle59 said:
"idiots" is very strong, but I agree that I have never understood the high value in low grade coins.
To me, it's like collecting the rustiest classic car or the stamp with the heaviest cancel and with the most torn perforations.
There are just so many aspects and variables to coin collecting. A true straight graded PO-1 is a challenge to find. I think I saw somewhere here once, a guy putting together a complete 7070 with all graded PO-1's.
I would be wary of putting money into items that don’t necessarily have ability to maintain long term value. High grade certified PCGS coins will always be in demand and retain all or much of their value over time
That's just a guess on your part.
Why? I am employing logic. Collecting PO-1 is like investing in Dutch tulips or crypto
That is not logic. That's an assumption, but that's not the guess i was referring to. It is the assumption that "high grade certified PCGS coins will always be in demand and retain all or much of their value..." Collecting interests change. There are numerous assumptions behind that: PCGSc remains respected, high grade coins maintain their premiums, etc. You need look no farther than the absolute collapse of prices for gem Walkers, Morgans, and Classic Commems in 1990.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Zoins - Yes, the difference really jumps out at you. Although they are two different TPG'ers, I guess standards change over the years. I also have no idea when mine was graded in that small ANACS soap bar slab.
To be honest, I think mine looks corroded or damaged compared to yours. Yours is a beautiful example! 👍
@oldabeintx said:
Pogue likely thought the two above were simply interesting. I don’t recall other than those two in the sale of his collection. I don’t collect Lowballs, but I find them interesting as well. So odd to see a commem circulate that extensively. Had to have been someone’s pocket piece. The Fugio is just cool, great piece of history.
He actually collected lowballs and had a type set set that was sold by Stack's along with a high grade type set. These two are part of that larger set.
Collecting low balls is one thing, but it makes zero sense to me to spend $4K on a coin that has next to no details versus buying a nice Gem Unc of the same coin for under $500.
Collecting low balls is one thing, but it makes zero sense to me to spend $4K on a coin that has next to no details versus buying a nice Gem Unc of the same coin for under $500.
Agree. However, the examples selected by Pogue as shown herein are interesting, but don’t ask me to elaborate cuz I’m not sure why. Finding a coin with so little detail, yet identifiable, would be a challenge. I’m warming to the idea of a lowball type set for fun. But for big bucks? No way.
Collecting low balls is one thing, but it makes zero sense to me to spend $4K on a coin that has next to no details versus buying a nice Gem Unc of the same coin for under $500.
Agree. However, the examples selected by Pogue as shown herein are interesting, but don’t ask me to elaborate cuz I’m not sure why. Finding a coin with so little detail, yet identifiable, would be a challenge. I’m warming to the idea of a lowball type set for fun. But for big bucks? No way.
Agreed. We’ve all heard buy the best you can afford. Not sure buy the worst that you can afford is what our predecessors meant.
@Colonialcoin
Agreed. We’ve all heard buy the best you can afford. Not sure buy the worst that you can afford is what our predecessors meant.
I guess “the best” in the context of lowballs, and what CAC may use, means coins that haven’t been messed with and have eye appeal of sorts. There are certainly worse examples of lowballs out there, probably in details holders. One day we may see a registry set for the worst of the worst, including details coins. More $ for opportunists. (Kidding, I think.)
@DoubleEagle59 said:
"idiots" is very strong, but I agree that I have never understood the high value in low grade coins.
To me, it's like collecting the rustiest classic car or the stamp with the heaviest cancel and with the most torn perforations.
There are just so many aspects and variables to coin collecting. A true straight graded PO-1 is a challenge to find. I think I saw somewhere here once, a guy putting together a complete 7070 with all graded PO-1's.
I would be wary of putting money into items that don’t necessarily have ability to maintain long term value. High grade certified PCGS coins will always be in demand and retain all or much of their value over time
That's just a guess on your part.
Why? I am employing logic. Collecting PO-1 is like investing in Dutch tulips or crypto
That is not logic. That's an assumption, but that's not the guess i was referring to. It is the assumption that "high grade certified PCGS coins will always be in demand and retain all or much of their value..." Collecting interests change. There are numerous assumptions behind that: PCGSc remains respected, high grade coins maintain their premiums, etc. You need look no farther than the absolute collapse of prices for gem Walkers, Morgans, and Classic Commems in 1990.
You are correct. I will restate to say that it is much safer to assume that high grade PCGS/CAC coins will retain more value than these lowball coins over time.
Not everything in the coin collecting world is about profits and the bottom line.
For a very few, it is about pure enjoyment and the thrill of the chase.
It's tough to put a price-tag on that.
Comments
Glad he's not around to hear this!
CAC wasn't certifying Fugios at the time, but they did sticker the commem below!
No, you are applying selective, faulty logic. Collecting all coins is like investing in Dutch tulips or crypto. Other than the melt value, there is nothing inherently valuable in highly graded coins. Just supply and demand.
There is nothing special about highly graded PCGS certified coins in terms of "always in demand". There is no guarantee of that. The people who thought so have gotten absolutely destroyed during various numismatic bear markets.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Even the melt value isn’t guaranteed. It’s a hobby for Pete’s sake.
It’s rather easy. I had a 1941 walking half which I carried around as a pocket piece for years. Within that time it wore down from a VF down to a Fair-AG with just the 1 in the date visible. It’s been long lost, but it may turn up in a 90% junk bin some day.
Absolutely correct! Quarters and dimes circulated non-stop, but the 64’s were plucked out of circulation right away, but the Kennedy’s which essentially didn’t circulate wore down to Fair??
This 1822 cent lowball surprises me.
It appears PO1 yet PCGS graded it FA2:
Dang!
I found a P-1 and a P-2 war nickel recently as well as a G- 68-D kennedy.
I was sure I could finally retire.
I'm just glad I never horded dateless buffalos. I couldda had a million of 'em.
Yes, they were. And once clads showed up in the early 70's, the silver ones disappeared.
Do half dollars wear down to Fair in seven or eight years? There would be bucketloads of low-grade clad Kennedys out there if they did.
Have you looked at the bags of 40%? Only about one third of them can be considered "G or better". The coins all have at least a little wear and even the BU rolls that were dumped in over the past 50 years have kicked around so much that they tend to be only sliders at best. The bulk of them are VF to AU-50 but are beaten to death and most are stained and corroded. Attrition is very high because these have been assembled into bags and melted since August of '79 and continually since 2008.
I rarely see a 40% with honest wear below F but there are lots of VF's. Nice chBU are much tougher than most realize because BU 40% rolls are gathered up by dealers to ship to the refiners every time silver spikes higher. There weren't so many to start with and a lot of the survivors are poorly made, unattractive, and tarnished.
'65 half dollars often circulated until about 1972 or so when usage began ratcheting lower. Circulation of all halfs was quite low during the bicentennial and then virtually ceased about 1981. There are wholesale buyers for nice looking 40% and for all the clads in AU. Prices are subdued and AU's in rolls tend to be unusual.
80% silver is soft so the old silver clad wore quickly.
I don't care to collect them but I care to make money so...
Seems like you could easily replicate typical commerce wear.
Put a bunch in the dryer and run it for a month the wife may leave you too, double bonus.
Finding truly problem-free Lowball coins can be a bit of a challenge.
Many are excessively "damaged" with issues I find unattractive.
I know out of dozens I'll land on a couple that I enjoy adding to my collection.
Here is my latest set of Morgan Peace and Ike dollars:
Regarding Kennedy half dollars, once again, these are probably pocket pieces. I would guess several decades of constant wear to create a modern slick. I have heard that some foreign countries use US coins extensively, dollars anyway, perhaps half’s as well.
If people want to put together lowball sets, I don't see anything wrong with it. Collect what you like.
However you slice it, though... "Fair" graded Kennedy half dollars didn't get that way by circulating as the word is commonly used and understood.
I'm glad you mentioned that creating a modern slick would require decades and not just years. Shared this before but this Peace dollar car chain was used by my dad from the 60's and I'm been using for over 30 years. It was either BU or high end AU when my dad got it drilled and started using. I will be long gone for it to get to P01/F02 shape.
I agree folks should collect what they want and supply/demand will set the price. But I'm not a fan of modern slicks, even if not artificially worn with a tumbler, as they look too white. Unmessed with classic coin that were used extensively usually all have that nice dark patina from use in commerce that moderns can not replicate.
If mine is a PO-1, yours has gotta be a PO minus 1! 🤣 👍 Yours seems to have much less meat then mine. 👍
Pogue likely thought the two above were simply interesting. I don’t recall other than those two in the sale of his collection. I don’t collect Lowballs, but I find them interesting as well. So odd to see a commem circulate that extensively. Had to have been someone’s pocket piece. The Fugio is just cool, great piece of history.
He actually collected lowballs and had a lowball type set that was sold by Stack's along with his high grade type set. These two are part of that larger set.
Check out this one:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-LY84C/1938-new-rochelle-new-york-250th-anniversary-poor-1-pcgs-cac
That is not logic. That's an assumption, but that's not the guess i was referring to. It is the assumption that "high grade certified PCGS coins will always be in demand and retain all or much of their value..." Collecting interests change. There are numerous assumptions behind that: PCGSc remains respected, high grade coins maintain their premiums, etc. You need look no farther than the absolute collapse of prices for gem Walkers, Morgans, and Classic Commems in 1990.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Wow! Your Fugio is nice! You're right in that it has a lot of meat left on it compared to mine!
Great contrast in grading standards for PO-01s!
@Zoins - Yes, the difference really jumps out at you. Although they are two different TPG'ers, I guess standards change over the years. I also have no idea when mine was graded in that small ANACS soap bar slab.
To be honest, I think mine looks corroded or damaged compared to yours. Yours is a beautiful example! 👍
Collecting low balls is one thing, but it makes zero sense to me to spend $4K on a coin that has next to no details versus buying a nice Gem Unc of the same coin for under $500.
Agree. However, the examples selected by Pogue as shown herein are interesting, but don’t ask me to elaborate cuz I’m not sure why. Finding a coin with so little detail, yet identifiable, would be a challenge. I’m warming to the idea of a lowball type set for fun. But for big bucks? No way.
Agreed. We’ve all heard buy the best you can afford. Not sure buy the worst that you can afford is what our predecessors meant.
I guess “the best” in the context of lowballs, and what CAC may use, means coins that haven’t been messed with and have eye appeal of sorts. There are certainly worse examples of lowballs out there, probably in details holders. One day we may see a registry set for the worst of the worst, including details coins. More $ for opportunists. (Kidding, I think.)
I must have a real problem Not only PO01 but holed and some counter stamped.
Lafayette Grading Set
You are correct. I will restate to say that it is much safer to assume that high grade PCGS/CAC coins will retain more value than these lowball coins over time.
Not everything in the coin collecting world is about profits and the bottom line.
For a very few, it is about pure enjoyment and the thrill of the chase.
It's tough to put a price-tag on that.