What is holding this 1922 Peace Dollar back from MS66+ or MS67?
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Rather than play GTG, I thought I would just ask directly why PCGS just crossed this Peace at MS66.
I bought this peace in an NGC Fatty MS66 CAC stickered holder. To me it looked premium, and I paid one too. But it only came back an MS66. I went through the Coinfacts of all the MS67s and from what I can tell this one compares quite nicely. So what am I missing? I thought this was a lock for at least a +. I know MS67s require a full strike and I believe this coin has it. The luster is all there in my opinion. I must be missing something.
Here are the links:
https://www.pcgs.com/trueview/59343136
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/59343136
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Would the OBV rim nick cause it to not upgrade?
Just enough slide marks on the eagle's wing along with a couple of scratches in that area too.
The coin looks clean enough to me to merit an MS66+. How do the reverse stains/splotches look in hand, compared to in the images?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In hand those stains are not a big distraction. I find that photos seem to accentuate stains like this and that is the case here. I wonder if they would come off in a restoration. I wouldn't think they would hold back the grade but if a resto would help it would certainly be worth doing.
An opinion is what is holding it back.
My guess is that a restoration wouldn’t do the job.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A bath. You should have given it 5 seconds in Ezest.
Besides the bath you took with old fatty, CAC sticker..
I see some wispy scattered marks on the cheek and the left facing field. They are minor, but they are there.
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Cracked a fatty CAC. Oofta.
Keep trying until you get the result you want…
Gorgeous coin. I’d characterize the strike around Liberty’s hair near her eye as only “normal” - perhaps that?
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I think there’s about a zero chance of the strike having impacted the grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Imo it is the cumulative minor grazes, nicks, and spotting (most notably on the rev) that keep it at the current grade. While I would not agree with it I would not be surprised if after enough attempts it garnered a + for the nice luster.
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Its a beautiful coin. I don't think there are enough nicks rubs or minor staining to prevent this coin from being a 66+.
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I don't know. Here are a few 67s from Coinfacts that have more obvious (or severe) damage than mine, in my opinion.
It probably is a plus - I like the coin. Perhaps the multitude of high point discoloration on the eagle held it back
66+ is not 66 1/2 it is 66 with eye appeal
And there’s nothing appealing about stains. Besides doesn’t a green bean mean the grade is already correct?
Plus rub on her nose.
I would have cracked her out and sent in raw because you have two things working against you first an inferior Grading company that is known to grade higher and then a solidified green bean just doesn’t make sense to me.
Many coins graded 66 have eye appeal, without automatically or magically grading 66+, instead. And a green sticker indicates that CAC believes the coin to be solid or high-end for the assigned grade. Additionally, CAC ignores plus grades, when deciding whether to sticker coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
i agree that a a + includes eye appeal and the staining hurts
it's not a 67 because of the reverse. it's not a few medium marks it doesn't have it's the collection of small marks it does have on the eagle and rays. excellent looking obverse.i mourn the fatty, tho.
Look through Coinfacts photos. Plenty of + graded coins have stains or unattractive toning. Green bean means that CAC believes the grade is correct or better. JA has stated that he does not gold CAC every undergraded coin so green beans could be given to undergraded coins as well. The criteria for a gold bean is theoretically at least 1.5 grades better, so a green bean on a 66 means JA believes the grade is at least 66 and he might not disagree if it were 67. The photography makes the stains look worse than the coin does in hand. I agree it doesn't help but I don't think you look at the coin in person and are taken aback by the stains. But maybe it should be restored, not a bad idea.
I agree with all of that but maybe that eye appealing 66 was a 65. I’ve seen plenty of instances where the grade pops with color and it doesn’t seem fair when you have a coin with better surfaces but graded lower.
I didn’t mean to sound too critical and I’m sure the coin looks amazing in hand.
I’m just trying to understand as well and there just isn’t any iron clad line to draw which is why I would’ve cracked it.
Now looking at Price Guides and the average auction price of NGC is 50%.
Plus the ask is large 600 to 10,000 so I assume they get very critical at this jump.
you've got a lot of staining
but it did cac
It did CAC, and if you look at MS66 Peace Dollars, the bulk majority of them do not come this nice. I may be biased but I bought it because it was nicer than any similar Peace I've seen and I felt it's better than my other MS66 CAC (sorry for the crappy photo):
I do not mind at all. This is what I want to hear to see the opinions and information that I am not seeing even if I don't like it. I want information, not compliments.
I know people here think the graders look at the price guides for every coin they pick up and grade (or know them by heart), and maybe I am naive, but I think and would like to hope they grade the coin without thinking about what the price guides say. Theoretically it is irrelevant.
But yes, because of the financial upside I do want to maximize the holder. I do not feel I lost any or much value by losing the NGC fatty and I have no worries about re-stickering. I also have a theory that others have agreed with that PCGS mostly only hands out +'s on reconsiderations, as unfortunate as that is. I will have to figure out whether to restore it and resubmit it or just go for reconsideration. I will update the thread with any developments.
This is definitely not true, I've gotten several plus grades on regular submissions. The plus may seem more likely on reconsiderations because there was a significant part of PCGS's history where the plus did not exist.
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Agree, and I have received numerous plus grades on raw modern submissions but more often than not the plus was still short of the price jump for example a '77 Ike in 66+ is no bueno.
I think the shiny spots on the Eagle’s wing are a problem if you want it to an MS-67.
If there's a population of 61 in 67 I wonder why they bring so much.....
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I said 'mostly' as I have received +'s also, but I've also had multiple submissions of 20 or so coin in grades with +'s (ie, not XF and below, not MS69, MS61, etc) and not a single plus grade is given, which given the criteria, is statistically unlikely.
Because it's basically top pop in a very popular collecting series. Lots of Peace dollar collectors out there.
My 2 cents:
Slightly weak in strike on LIBERTY for a semi well struck 1922 common date
Stains on reverse
Tiny marks on both sides ( neck and eagle) Just to many for a 67
Combine all three of these to nix a 67
I can see a 66 plus easily, I would not dip it!
Maybe it would CAC again if you submitted it?
Why wouldn't it? Same coin at the same grade.
First thing that caught my eye was the stains on reverse and agree with @MFeld will not dip/conserve away. Don't doubt it was already tried. Very nice coin BTW. Also notice some small black carbon spots on reverse top near rim. 66 yep, but the top of the heap, not on first try.
My opinion is that only the third coin you posted is a true 67, the top two I would not call 67 and certainly would not pay 67 money for. It is also my opinion that that third coin is nicer than yours, it appears to have nice thick frost and a better strike (especially the rev letters) than your coin. I agree that your coin is as nice as the top two, but since I think those are overgraded well...
A rebean is never a slam dunk, I have seen instances where CAC declined to reapply the sticker after a plastic change.
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It looks like someone sneezed on the reverse.
A little curating would have helped immensely.
Yes, a nice little Q-tip with some MS 70 on it would work really well.
The black upper obverse area makes it look crummy. Reverse stuff not good. It looks crummy to me lol. Most likely a borderline detail coin.
Once again, you have displayed infinite numismatic wisdom - NOT.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The logic in grading seems to have always been that "the reverse won't bring the grade up but it can certainly bring it down" and I believe it might apply here. While the obverse is lovely and clean, when I look at the reverse my eyes go directly to all the stains. That might be the problem holding it back. There's always the re-submission route if you're convinced it should grade higher.
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While I agree with all that mentioned the reverse stains, many are not pointing out scratches on the eagle's wing. I think both of these issues likely impacted the grade decision.
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A Reverse can hold the grade of a coin back along with the subjectivity of the graders in terms of whether the issue creates either negative eye appeal or diminishes expectations for what coin should look like at the 67 grade level. In this instance, I suspect either scenario is what we have and why it is at 66
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If it was my coin I would wait at least 3-4 months and resubmit the coin to PCGS. It’s very difficult for most of us (myself included) to differentiate between a 66, 66+, and 67 especially only with images. There’s too big a difference in prices not to try at least once.
ok - So I think its a 66+. Why take a chance and crack out the coin and submit it to our hosts and let us know how it comes back. I can't see it coming back any lower than a 66, Go for it.
That’s an absolute stunner! Maybe the splotches kept it back slightly? The little scuffing at the bottom of the neck too perhaps.
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I would definetly have it conserved. If those stains are removed it will be a different coin.
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I know a couple of places that would give it a 67 and then you could sell at half price and still be in the black.
Please clean your coin first
This is my 1922 in MS66+ CAC
Yours has a few more friction marks on the highest reverse devices, and probably more luster. How they weigh those factors in deciding on a grade is beyond me.
I will say that trying to grade Peace dollars is much more challenging than Morgan dollars.
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My 65 I'm not cracking but if I did I would treat it like going to court.. You don't go without cleaning up and presenting..
I definitely understand, but getting a bean to begin with means the coin is almost reliably problem free and all you really have to worry about is whether the grade gets assessed the same by JA which is a risk for liner coins. IMO, this coin an A-B (or possibly 67 C), rather than a 66C would if it somehow stickered, may risk not re-stickering. But maybe I'm just biased on this one.
I think you're right, and I think that's what I'll do. I don't think there is any risk and I will give it a bath and see if that helps. Stay tuned...