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A client asked me about this PCGS 1796 Bust dollar so I offered to post it here for feedback.

MFeldMFeld Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 9, 2026 4:18PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Does anyone know the proper attribution for this variety?

eBay listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/257327175386

Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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Comments

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 39,878 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you remove everything from the ? to the end, it still works and you remove the trackers.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    If you remove everything from the ? to the end, it still works and you remove the trackers.

    Thanks very much and done.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2026 6:31PM

    @lilolme said:
    Hmmm...
    I see that the cert number states 1796 small date small letters but..........
    I could not match up the obverse to BB-62, 63 or 66 (the small date small letters) but the reverse does match up to the Reverse A used on those.
    Then it hit me. That is an off-center obverse and why nothing was matching up. So I checked the 1795 off center and it has the reverse A and appears to match the obverse.
    So I am thinking it is actually a 1795 off-center.BB-51
    Notice where the first star is relative to the hair curls, the fifth star relative to hair bow and the letter B relative to the top hair curl. The centered (and 1796)are not like that.

    Thank you so much for that! Do you think the date could still be 1795 with the last digit looking the way it does? I’m having a hard time seeing a 5, rather than a 6.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • RedRocketRedRocket Posts: 933 ✭✭✭✭

    Also, definitive, check the location of the B in LIBERTY in relation to the off-centered. The OP's coin is definitely 1795.

  • steve_richardsonsteve_richardson Posts: 241 ✭✭✭✭

    Reverse also seems to match 1795. Look at the first T in states, and its alignment with the leaves.

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @lilolme said:

    Thank you so much for that! Do you think the date could still be 1795 with the last digit looking the way it does? I’m having a hard time seeing a 5, rather than a 6.

    Just looking at the OP date and I would say that last digit looks like a 6. I think that would mean a discovery coin of an off centered 1796. So I put together the 1795, the OP and a 1796 date stack. Looking at the date stack the OP doesn't look like any of them.

    The 6 in the 1796 has a more narrow and slight loop at the top with a bulb end. And then the internal spacing between the top of the 6 and the top of the bottom loop. Also the top of the 6 stop well inside the outer edge of the bottom loop.

    But it doesn't look like the 5 either. However the internal spacing between the 5 and the top of the bottom loop is closer. Also the 5 extends to about the outer edge of the bottom loop.

    Of course wear alone can do a lot to mess things up and especially smaller detail things. Possibly took a hit long ago and then add in the 'worn down'? :)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hYCRaWPlTIE Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover of Panama (Van Halen)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=dOV1VrDuUm4 Ted Nugent, Hibernation, Live 1976

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • steve_richardsonsteve_richardson Posts: 241 ✭✭✭✭

    Nevermind. Reverse also looks like the 96 small date, small letters. So that’s not definitive.

  • steve_richardsonsteve_richardson Posts: 241 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2026 7:53PM

    There are fakes with an offset bust and the year 1796. Could this be an extremely worn counterfeit?

    Example on Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1714970309/1796-draped-bust-dollar-small-eagle

  • Ridley06Ridley06 Posts: 82 ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2026 9:21PM

    What's so difficult is many counterfeits of the off centered 95's have very accurate die diagnostics. Take a look at the die chip Between B and E in "Liberty", as well as the Dot in the 7 in the date. I am not certain but I am leaning towards a naturally worn counterfeit. Does anyone know if these counterfeit are known to be actual silver? like the example provided by @yosclimber

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 5,242 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2026 9:33PM

    @Ridley06 said:
    What's so difficult is many counterfeits of the off centered 95's have very accurate die diagnostics. Take a look at the die chip Between B and E in "Liberty", as well as the Dot in the 7 in the date. I am not certain but I am leaning towards a naturally worn counterfeit. Does anyone know if these counterfeit are known to be actual silver? like the example provided by @yosclimber

    The civitasgalleries page states the composition is "Silver", although it is not much more specific than that.

    Specs:
    Composition: Silver
    Weight: 26.9g.
    Diameter: Uncertain
    Origin: Likely China or elsewhere in Asia
    Method of Manufacture: Transfer Die(?)

    There are additional details on the page, including discussion of fake NGC slabs and similar, lower grade versions.
    https://www.civitasgalleries.com/counterfeits/1796silverdollar.html

  • lermishlermish Posts: 4,503 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @InGodWeTrustCoins

    chopmarkedtradedollars.com

  • Ridley06Ridley06 Posts: 82 ✭✭✭

    Thank you @yosclimber. I feel like a definitive way to prove thats its counterfeit would be to test its alloy composition, since so many determining factors are on details that are worn. I do have access to a good X ray machine, but doubt it could accurately read through the holder. Would be very risky to crack it out and loose PCGS guarantee.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 38,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ridley06 said:
    Thank you @yosclimber. I feel like a definitive way to prove thats its counterfeit would be to test its alloy composition, since so many determining factors are on details that are worn. I do have access to a good X ray machine, but doubt it could accurately read through the holder. Would be very risky to crack it out and loose PCGS guarantee.

    pcgs has a gun

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    Thanks to everyone for your replies and the information you’ve provided.

    My client and I suspected the coin to be counterfeit, but I didn’t want to risk steering the discussion in that direction, by saying so. If anyone is bothered by that, please accept my apology.

    Actually I think you should have stated something about your counterfeit suspicions. If that was done, then I would have gone to the burfle23 article list directly (as I did later after counterfeit was mentioned) and posted that information and not wasted so much time gathering other miscellaneous information. I learned again, post less. Now back to working on my BH thread.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hYCRaWPlTIE Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover of Panama (Van Halen)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=dOV1VrDuUm4 Ted Nugent, Hibernation, Live 1976

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • rte592rte592 Posts: 2,143 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @steve_richardson said:
    Nevermind. Reverse also looks like the 96 small date, small letters. So that’s not definitive.

    I'd say PMD
    I must Say Very Impressed with the Research :o
    Cool Date, if it was priced right but I'd lean towards something in better shape.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:

    @MFeld said:
    Thanks to everyone for your replies and the information you’ve provided.

    My client and I suspected the coin to be counterfeit, but I didn’t want to risk steering the discussion in that direction, by saying so. If anyone is bothered by that, please accept my apology.

    Actually I think you should have stated something about your counterfeit suspicions. If that was done, then I would have gone to the burfle23 article list directly (as I did later after counterfeit was mentioned) and posted that information and not wasted so much time gathering other miscellaneous information. I learned again, post less. Now back to working on my BH thread.

    Thank you for letting me know and I’m very sorry for that. I’ve learned a lesson and wish it hadn’t been at your expense. I won’t make that mistake again.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Davidk7 said:
    I think that letting people come to their own conclusion was the right idea, as opposed to raising a concern about authenticity. Considering the coin made it into a straight graded holder, having people discuss the die characteristics and attribution was a good call. As evidenced by the thread, the dies do not match up!

    I'm glad you posted this, I saw the coin on ebay prior to the thread and it didn't even strike me that it was counterfeit which is downright terrifying.

    Thank you. If I’d seen the listing without first having been alerted to it, I almost certainly would have remained unaware.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Old_CollectorOld_Collector Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very instructive thread, thanks to all for your knowledge input on how to evaluate this coin.
    But Mark did say it was on EBay, so mentioning potential counterfeit should not be necessary.
    Okay, 3 . 2. 1. go ahead and torch me now. ;)

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Old_Collector said:
    Very instructive thread, thanks to all for your knowledge input on how to evaluate this coin.
    But Mark did say it was on EBay, so mentioning potential counterfeit should not be necessary.
    Okay, 3 . 2. 1. go ahead and torch me now. ;)

    No torch for you.😉 However, even considering that the coin’s listed on eBay, it’s certainly not your everyday counterfeit. And I doubt that that many viewers would catch it.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bottom line, this is a great thread. It's what it's all about...

    mbogoman

    Asesabi Lutho

    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345
  • Davidk7Davidk7 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Davidk7 said:
    I think that letting people come to their own conclusion was the right idea, as opposed to raising a concern about authenticity. Considering the coin made it into a straight graded holder, having people discuss the die characteristics and attribution was a good call. As evidenced by the thread, the dies do not match up!

    I'm glad you posted this, I saw the coin on ebay prior to the thread and it didn't even strike me that it was counterfeit which is downright terrifying.

    Thank you. If I’d seen the listing without first having been alerted to it, I almost certainly would have remained unaware.

    Yeah, I think most people would have just written the coin off as a low grade genuine example without even paying much attention. I definitely did, as would have most dealers. I had started to attribute the coin but had to leave, I briefly saw the reverse matched so I just assumed it was real, plus the fact it was in the slab. Scary stuff.

    Props to your client!

    Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram

  • numis1652numis1652 Posts: 99 ✭✭✭

    I understand the die matching details. But what I dont understand is : 1. the many years’ natural gray patina - not artificially applied. and 2. the numerous digs and scratches and rim dents on both sides that have age-old dark patina deep into the crevices. No, I am not at all convinced this is a tampered with modern copy …and that is a 6. The ornamented rim should tell us something if it was removed from the slab. And the precise silver alloy.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @numis1652 said:
    I understand the die matching details. But what I dont understand is : 1. the many years’ natural gray patina - not artificially applied. and 2. the numerous digs and scratches and rim dents on both sides that have age-old dark patina deep into the crevices. No, I am not at all convinced this is a tampered with modern copy …and that is a 6. The ornamented rim should tell us something if it was removed from the slab. And the precise silver alloy.

    Based on the coin’s images, I can certainly understand your skepticism.

    I sent the eBay seller a polite message and tried to direct him to this thread. I haven’t received a reply but hopefully, he’ll contact PCGS.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 5,242 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The seller is also a forum member, was tagged in this thread last night, and logged in to the forum today. So they may already have looked at this thread. Hopefully they will share their thoughts.

  • Morgan WhiteMorgan White Posts: 13,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting thread. One point I'll add is that it isn't a typical wear pattern for a draped bust dollar.

  • RedRocketRedRocket Posts: 933 ✭✭✭✭

    As a counterfeit in a PCGS slab I'd think it still has value close to the asking price?

  • InGodWeTrustCoinsInGodWeTrustCoins Posts: 184 ✭✭✭

    We purchased this coin raw from a private collector. We submitted the coin to PCGS for verification. In hand, the coin does not appear suspicious in anyway.

    The coin is too worn to accurately attribute its’ exact BB variety, and the experts at PCGS have examined it and deemed the coin genuine and encapsulated it.

    InGodWeTrustCoinsandCurrency.com

  • humanssuckhumanssuck Posts: 637 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    PCGS made an error in authenticating it. What would their guarantee imply in this situation?

    The PCGS guarantee would not able to be used in this case, since the current owner of the coin is the submitter.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 38,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    yeah, but this is a counterfeit. i think pcgs should do the right thing and de-holder it with paid shipping both ways

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • humanssuckhumanssuck Posts: 637 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    yeah, but this is a counterfeit. i think pcgs should do the right thing and de-holder it with paid shipping both ways

    And refund the original grading fees.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 38,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @humanssuck said:

    @MsMorrisine said:
    yeah, but this is a counterfeit. i think pcgs should do the right thing and de-holder it with paid shipping both ways

    And refund the original grading fees.

    had pcgs got it right the first time, the fees would still need to be paid

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • humanssuckhumanssuck Posts: 637 ✭✭✭✭✭

    But they didn't. Refunding the grading fees would seem to me to at least be a nice start to an apology for the mess up and hassle.

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