The legal boilerplate protects them from unreasonable customers and their demands. With a coin like this that has been responsibly stored under climate controlled conditions (and I'd note that on the submission) I'd think that they'd do all they could to address this issue.
PCGS published this lengthy message in late 2009. Near the end, in bold font, is text about PCGS's guarantee with regard to copper color.
Lance.
December 4, 2009 email from PCGS:
There are 7,320,437 reasons that show,
When it comes to Your Coins...
PCGS puts its money where its mouth is!
Here's what the PCGS Grading Guarantee does (and doesn't) do for you and your coins...and here's also a few changes in the way the PCGS Grading Guarantee works.
For the past 24 years, the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) has offered collectors and dealers the strongest assurance of grading accuracy and independence in the rare coin market. A strong guarantee was one of the tenants upon which PCGS was founded. We were the first third party grading company to actually guarantee the grade and authenticity of the coins we graded.
For 24 years we've stood behind the service we provide to you not with a money back/fee returned policy if we make a mistake...not with a "we're sorry, we'll return your grading fee or give you free grading" policy if we make a mistake...but with an actual cash guarantee for the market value of the coins we grade and authenticate.
They say that talk is cheap and money talks. So when it comes to the validity of the PCGS Grading Guarantee we'll let the money do the talking. Here are the cold facts about what we've done in the past 24 years.
In the past 24 years, PCGS has (as of Dec 1, 2009) graded 18,784,536 coins with a declared value of $19,138,747,536. That's 18 million coins worth over 19 billion dollars!
In the past 24 years, PCGS has paid out $7,320,437 under the terms of the PCGS Grading Guarantee. When we make a mistake that involves your coins, we pay for our mistake. It's that simple.
Here are some detailed figures of the money we've paid out under the terms of our grading guarantee. The following is the total amount paid in each of the last six calendar years;
2003...$365,525
2004...$222,227
2005...$507,692
2006...$382,384
2007...$562,541
2008...$1,945,755
2009 (thru Dec 1)...$498,798
You'll note that the cash figures are increasing, but this may be explained by the fact that coins are worth more today than they were in 2003. The huge amount bought back in 2008 was probably a "perfect storm" aberration (January, 2008 was not a good month for PCGS...see below).
The 12 most expensive mistakes we've paid for are as follows, and we're not doing this to show off (in fact, it's actually admitting our biggest mistakes very publically). We're doing this to let everyone know that we stand behind the work we do for you with cold hard cash. We take our job seriously. We want to do the best job we can for you. And if we make a mistake, we'll pay for it.
Here are the twelve most expensive PCGS Guarantee "buy-backs";
1794 Silver dollar AU55 $575,000, January, 2008. This was a beautiful looking coin, but on close examination, the hair had been reworked and the toning was actually not original. It was obviously a very skillful doctoring job and it fooled a lot of people.
1849 Mass & Cal $5 AU55 $150,000, June, 2006. This is a very rare territorial gold coin that turned out to be counterfeit.
1792 Half Disme XF45 $150,000, January, 2008. This coin had actual been flattened, probably around 1800, and did not look right at all. We shouldn't have missed this one.
1969-S double die Lincoln cent MS65RD $80,000, November, 2003. This coin had been doctored. We missed the doctoring and the coin "turned" in the holder.
1861/57-S Clark Gruber $20 MS63 $75,000, November, 2007. This coin had been known to the coin community for decades. In fact David Hall had it at coin shows for sale in the mid-1970s. But research eventually showed that this coin, and several other Clark Gruber rarities, were actually counterfeits that were probably made in the 1950s or 1960s.
1861 Clark Gruber $20 (three) MS62s $55,000 each, January, 2008. Same type of circa 1950s counterfeits as coin above.
1899 Indian cent PR69 $50,000, February, 1988. This gorgeous proof Indian cent later developed a huge copper spot covering the face of the Indian. We bought the coin back and hung it on the grading room wall with a sign that said "The $50,000 Spot" and we told the graders to be really careful when handling copper coins.
1908 $20 St. Gaudens PR63 $45,000, July, 2008. This matte proof Saint had been improperly cleaned or conserved or doctored or whatever you want to call it. We missed the subtle surfaces problems which later became not so subtle as the chemicals used by the "doctor" reacted on the coin.
1963 Lincoln cent PR70DCAM $40,768, April, 2004. This perfect Lincoln proof later developed a few minor spots. Not really our fault, but it was covered by our grading guarantee.
1849-D gold dollar MS64 $40,000, July, 2008. This was a beautiful, very high grade Dahlonega Mint that unfortunately had a planchet lamination on the rim the broke loose and negatively effected the coin. This was not really a grading mistake, but an unforeseen problem covered by our grading guarantee nonetheless.
Bottom line...we're the experts, but even experts make mistakes. That's why we have the PCGS Grading Guarantee, so you don't have to pay for our mistakes.
Here's is a link to PCGS Grading Guarantee...
www.pcgs.com/guarantee.html
which gives the details of the guarantee and how it works, plus some very specific details and examples of what the guarantee does and doesn't do.
For example, if we overgrade a coin, it's covered by the PCGS Grading Guarantee. If we miss some doctoring on a coin, it's covered by the PCGS Grading Guarantee. But if there's a mechanical (clerical) error on the holder of the coin...let's say the coin is dated 1936, but the holder says 1937...the PCGS Grading Guarantee doesn't cover an obvious clerical error that shouldn't fool anyone.
If you own PCGS graded coins or are considering purchasing PCGS graded coins, you should go to the link above and review the terms of the PCGS Grading Guarantee.
We are also making two important changes to the PCGS Grading Guarantee effective for PCGS graded world coins and copper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010. For world coins (i.e. non-U.S. coins), we will have a limit on our guarantee of $10,000 per coin. And for Chinese coins, we will have a limit on our guarantee of $1,000 per coin.
We've also made a change in how we handle the guarantee of color for copper coins. The fact is that color for copper can change depending upon where a coin is stored. The villain is humidity, and if you have mint red copper coins stored in Hawaii or Florida, for example, there's a good chance that the environmental factors can alter the color of the coins. This is obviously beyond our control so consequently we will not be guaranteeing the color of cooper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010.
For 24 years we've been standing behind the service we provide you with a cash grading guarantee. We intend to keep providing you with the best possible grading and authentication service and the PCGS Grading Guarantee to stand behind that service for the next 24 years and many years after that!
@PerryHall said:
If it were my coin, I'd sell it as is on eBay with good pics and then move on. My batting average is not good when it comes to "fixing" coins with problems like this.
I believe that this coin's problems go deeper than a few green spots. The piece has not been properly stored in the past which has resulted in mild corrosion. The color is not that of a "healthy" bronze cent. I am a bit surprised that it received a straignt grade.
I agree with @PerryHall. If you can afford to do it, sell this piece, and buy a better one. That is a better strategy than messing around with this one. When you start messing around with spots, you might find something under the spots which is as bad or worse than what you are trying to fix.
Here's an example of the Brown doubled die cent.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The repeated, misguided recommendation of ACETONE is tiresome. Acetone will do NOTHING with green or black corrosion which your cent has from being stored where humidity is present in Florida -
That corrosion will spread. Acetone only removes PVC which is surface contamination and has not yet penetrated metallic surfaces.
To stop the moisture corrosion , crack it out and apply coin oil w a Qtip, removing 95% of the oil with an old much washed t- shirt or absorbant soft cloth. That will stop the corrosion from progressing.. I seriously doubt ANY conservation will remove the corrosion. It has eaten into the metal.
An oldtime very advanced coin collector in Louisiana told me that he kept his early copper coins in NYC w Stacks while the silver & gold type coins he kept in LA as he knew what humidity would do to the copper . This collector had THE finest condition type set of US coins ever formed back in the mid 80s when it sold at auction. Better than Pogue colln which decades later had many of this LA collector’s coins. LA and FL are not areas you can safely store copper long term. Slabs are not airtight! And dessication absorbant material does not work long term. Perhaps even short term when the humidity seeps into a slab and cant escape.
Longtime advanced numismatist
The only thing you can-do with your double die cent is prevent further damage by removing it from the slab and applying coin oil.
@Tranquility said:
Would a rock tumbler for just a few minutes remove the spots and corrosion?
THAT suggestion was the dumbest comment Ive ever read in decades. Or was it said in jest ?
I wonder.
Obviously, he was joking.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
If it were my coin, I'd sell it as is on eBay with good pics and then move on. My batting average is not good when it comes to "fixing" coins with problems like this.
I believe that this coin's problems go deeper than a few green spots. The piece has not been properly stored in the past which has resulted in mild corrosion. The color is not that of a "healthy" bronze cent. ……..
……..
It has been stored in a safety deposit box and then a safe since I have owned it. It is the only copper coin I have with this problem….so I’m not so sure it’s a storage problem…… 🤔
@PerryHall said:
If it were my coin, I'd sell it as is on eBay with good pics and then move on. My batting average is not good when it comes to "fixing" coins with problems like this.
I believe that this coin's problems go deeper than a few green spots. The piece has not been properly stored in the past which has resulted in mild corrosion. The color is not that of a "healthy" bronze cent. ……..
……..
It has been stored in a safety deposit box and then a safe since I have owned it. It is the only copper coin I have with this problem….so I’m not so sure it’s a storage problem…… 🤔
I am not a “coin detective,” but the odd, dark brown color and spots suggest something happened to it. It may have been something that was applied to it before it was struck.
I bought the 1955 doubled die I posted over 40 years ago with ANACS papers with no grade on it. It was voluntary “no grade” from a dealer who, for whatever reason, wanted no grade on it. I sent it to NGC where it got a questionable MS-62, Brown grade. It graded AU-58 + if you want to get really technical. It has not changed over the 40+ years I’ve owned it.
With proper storage and the absence of messing with it, a brown copper coin should not change in your lifetime. Red - Brown and especially Red can be a problem. That’s why I don’t buy Red unless it’s a fairly new (under 50) coin.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Improperly mixed planchet or low quality copper? Maybe this came from one of the cigarette packs.
The obverse coloration does seem a bit questionable.
===========================================================================================
"Instead of mocking the question (not a statement, not a "suggestion", mind you, a question) why not answer it?"
Because people thought it was a joke, obviously.
===================================================================================
Picked up this 1917 DDO several years ago already with the reverse verdigris issue present and hoping that I could correct it. Using the Verdi-Care, I was able to remove the surface verdigris. I did seal it with a coin conditioner and it does not appear to be getting worse, but as you can see the damage is done.
@logger7 said:
Guarantees on that coin have long since sunsetted.
I've heard major dealers try to throw anxiety into me about a coin with "terminal" issues, also using terms like "it could spread", to sell to them. I'd take the advice about dedicated copper specialists and their recommendations seriously. If the coin is valued at $2K then "restoration" would probably be over a hundred especially with shipping and re-grading, but at least you'd have PCGS's best treatment.
I just read the guarantee, and you are correct. PCGS used to guarantee coins that "turned in the holder", but no longer. If I were the OP I still would have it conserved - even if it were downgraded to AU53 I think it would be more saleable. As it is now, I would think any buyer would want a hefty discount to market value, like at least 1/3.
As an aside, I would think PCGS would still guarantee doctored coins that slipped by them (such as puttied gold coins), but it is not clear to me if that is the case under the new policy.
I had thought that, originally when the guarantee for copper changed, it was only for the color designation.
So, either it changed again, and I admittedly haven't paid attention in close to a decade, or I understood incorrectly originally.
Since most of my slabbed copper is toned (RB/BN) anyway, it didn't matter that much to me about the color designation guarantee changing.
it is more than just color changing - any environmental damage that emerges over time is not covered, including milk spots on modern coins. I guess over the years too may people improperly stored PCGS coins in environments that their holders could not protect the coin from fully. So it seems the guarantee only applies if the coin is overgraded, the way I read it. Perhaps a putty on gold situation might be considered an "overgraded" coin.
I think a puttied coin would be considered an “altered” one. And the good news is that on many occasions, the removal of the putty reveals a coin that’s acceptable at the assigned grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@logger7 said:
Guarantees on that coin have long since sunsetted.
I've heard major dealers try to throw anxiety into me about a coin with "terminal" issues, also using terms like "it could spread", to sell to them. I'd take the advice about dedicated copper specialists and their recommendations seriously. If the coin is valued at $2K then "restoration" would probably be over a hundred especially with shipping and re-grading, but at least you'd have PCGS's best treatment.
I just read the guarantee, and you are correct. PCGS used to guarantee coins that "turned in the holder", but no longer. If I were the OP I still would have it conserved - even if it were downgraded to AU53 I think it would be more saleable. As it is now, I would think any buyer would want a hefty discount to market value, like at least 1/3.
As an aside, I would think PCGS would still guarantee doctored coins that slipped by them (such as puttied gold coins), but it is not clear to me if that is the case under the new policy.
I had thought that, originally when the guarantee for copper changed, it was only for the color designation.
So, either it changed again, and I admittedly haven't paid attention in close to a decade, or I understood incorrectly originally.
Since most of my slabbed copper is toned (RB/BN) anyway, it didn't matter that much to me about the color designation guarantee changing.
it is more than just color changing - any environmental damage that emerges over time is not covered, including milk spots on modern coins. I guess over the years too may people improperly stored PCGS coins in environments that their holders could not protect the coin from fully. So it seems the guarantee only applies if the coin is overgraded, the way I read it. Perhaps a putty on gold situation might be considered an "overgraded" coin.
I think a puttied coin would be considered an “altered” one. And the good news is that on many occasions, the removal of the putty reveals a coin that’s acceptable at the assigned grade.
Every PCGS certified puttied gold coin I've either had conserved by PCGS or done so myself have either graded at the same level or in a couple cases upgraded.
Comments
The legal boilerplate protects them from unreasonable customers and their demands. With a coin like this that has been responsibly stored under climate controlled conditions (and I'd note that on the submission) I'd think that they'd do all they could to address this issue.
PCGS published this lengthy message in late 2009. Near the end, in bold font, is text about PCGS's guarantee with regard to copper color.
Lance.
December 4, 2009 email from PCGS:
There are 7,320,437 reasons that show,
When it comes to Your Coins...
PCGS puts its money where its mouth is!
Here's what the PCGS Grading Guarantee does (and doesn't) do for you and your coins...and here's also a few changes in the way the PCGS Grading Guarantee works.
For the past 24 years, the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) has offered collectors and dealers the strongest assurance of grading accuracy and independence in the rare coin market. A strong guarantee was one of the tenants upon which PCGS was founded. We were the first third party grading company to actually guarantee the grade and authenticity of the coins we graded.
For 24 years we've stood behind the service we provide to you not with a money back/fee returned policy if we make a mistake...not with a "we're sorry, we'll return your grading fee or give you free grading" policy if we make a mistake...but with an actual cash guarantee for the market value of the coins we grade and authenticate.
They say that talk is cheap and money talks. So when it comes to the validity of the PCGS Grading Guarantee we'll let the money do the talking. Here are the cold facts about what we've done in the past 24 years.
In the past 24 years, PCGS has (as of Dec 1, 2009) graded 18,784,536 coins with a declared value of $19,138,747,536. That's 18 million coins worth over 19 billion dollars!
In the past 24 years, PCGS has paid out $7,320,437 under the terms of the PCGS Grading Guarantee. When we make a mistake that involves your coins, we pay for our mistake. It's that simple.
Here are some detailed figures of the money we've paid out under the terms of our grading guarantee. The following is the total amount paid in each of the last six calendar years;
2003...$365,525
2004...$222,227
2005...$507,692
2006...$382,384
2007...$562,541
2008...$1,945,755
2009 (thru Dec 1)...$498,798
You'll note that the cash figures are increasing, but this may be explained by the fact that coins are worth more today than they were in 2003. The huge amount bought back in 2008 was probably a "perfect storm" aberration (January, 2008 was not a good month for PCGS...see below).
The 12 most expensive mistakes we've paid for are as follows, and we're not doing this to show off (in fact, it's actually admitting our biggest mistakes very publically). We're doing this to let everyone know that we stand behind the work we do for you with cold hard cash. We take our job seriously. We want to do the best job we can for you. And if we make a mistake, we'll pay for it.
Here are the twelve most expensive PCGS Guarantee "buy-backs";
1794 Silver dollar AU55 $575,000, January, 2008. This was a beautiful looking coin, but on close examination, the hair had been reworked and the toning was actually not original. It was obviously a very skillful doctoring job and it fooled a lot of people.
1849 Mass & Cal $5 AU55 $150,000, June, 2006. This is a very rare territorial gold coin that turned out to be counterfeit.
1792 Half Disme XF45 $150,000, January, 2008. This coin had actual been flattened, probably around 1800, and did not look right at all. We shouldn't have missed this one.
1969-S double die Lincoln cent MS65RD $80,000, November, 2003. This coin had been doctored. We missed the doctoring and the coin "turned" in the holder.
1861/57-S Clark Gruber $20 MS63 $75,000, November, 2007. This coin had been known to the coin community for decades. In fact David Hall had it at coin shows for sale in the mid-1970s. But research eventually showed that this coin, and several other Clark Gruber rarities, were actually counterfeits that were probably made in the 1950s or 1960s.
1861 Clark Gruber $20 (three) MS62s $55,000 each, January, 2008. Same type of circa 1950s counterfeits as coin above.
1899 Indian cent PR69 $50,000, February, 1988. This gorgeous proof Indian cent later developed a huge copper spot covering the face of the Indian. We bought the coin back and hung it on the grading room wall with a sign that said "The $50,000 Spot" and we told the graders to be really careful when handling copper coins.
1908 $20 St. Gaudens PR63 $45,000, July, 2008. This matte proof Saint had been improperly cleaned or conserved or doctored or whatever you want to call it. We missed the subtle surfaces problems which later became not so subtle as the chemicals used by the "doctor" reacted on the coin.
1963 Lincoln cent PR70DCAM $40,768, April, 2004. This perfect Lincoln proof later developed a few minor spots. Not really our fault, but it was covered by our grading guarantee.
1849-D gold dollar MS64 $40,000, July, 2008. This was a beautiful, very high grade Dahlonega Mint that unfortunately had a planchet lamination on the rim the broke loose and negatively effected the coin. This was not really a grading mistake, but an unforeseen problem covered by our grading guarantee nonetheless.
Bottom line...we're the experts, but even experts make mistakes. That's why we have the PCGS Grading Guarantee, so you don't have to pay for our mistakes.
Here's is a link to PCGS Grading Guarantee...
www.pcgs.com/guarantee.html
which gives the details of the guarantee and how it works, plus some very specific details and examples of what the guarantee does and doesn't do.
For example, if we overgrade a coin, it's covered by the PCGS Grading Guarantee. If we miss some doctoring on a coin, it's covered by the PCGS Grading Guarantee. But if there's a mechanical (clerical) error on the holder of the coin...let's say the coin is dated 1936, but the holder says 1937...the PCGS Grading Guarantee doesn't cover an obvious clerical error that shouldn't fool anyone.
If you own PCGS graded coins or are considering purchasing PCGS graded coins, you should go to the link above and review the terms of the PCGS Grading Guarantee.
We are also making two important changes to the PCGS Grading Guarantee effective for PCGS graded world coins and copper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010. For world coins (i.e. non-U.S. coins), we will have a limit on our guarantee of $10,000 per coin. And for Chinese coins, we will have a limit on our guarantee of $1,000 per coin.
We've also made a change in how we handle the guarantee of color for copper coins. The fact is that color for copper can change depending upon where a coin is stored. The villain is humidity, and if you have mint red copper coins stored in Hawaii or Florida, for example, there's a good chance that the environmental factors can alter the color of the coins. This is obviously beyond our control so consequently we will not be guaranteeing the color of cooper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010.
For 24 years we've been standing behind the service we provide you with a cash grading guarantee. We intend to keep providing you with the best possible grading and authentication service and the PCGS Grading Guarantee to stand behind that service for the next 24 years and many years after that!
When it comes to your coins...
PCGS puts its money where its mouth is!
I remember the PR69 Indian back in the day. Interesting they call it a “spot”. They put a fingerprint on it.
I believe that this coin's problems go deeper than a few green spots. The piece has not been properly stored in the past which has resulted in mild corrosion. The color is not that of a "healthy" bronze cent. I am a bit surprised that it received a straignt grade.
I agree with @PerryHall. If you can afford to do it, sell this piece, and buy a better one. That is a better strategy than messing around with this one. When you start messing around with spots, you might find something under the spots which is as bad or worse than what you are trying to fix.
Here's an example of the Brown doubled die cent.
Would a rock tumbler for just a few minutes remove the spots and corrosion?
The repeated, misguided recommendation of ACETONE is tiresome. Acetone will do NOTHING with green or black corrosion which your cent has from being stored where humidity is present in Florida -
That corrosion will spread. Acetone only removes PVC which is surface contamination and has not yet penetrated metallic surfaces.
To stop the moisture corrosion , crack it out and apply coin oil w a Qtip, removing 95% of the oil with an old much washed t- shirt or absorbant soft cloth. That will stop the corrosion from progressing.. I seriously doubt ANY conservation will remove the corrosion. It has eaten into the metal.
An oldtime very advanced coin collector in Louisiana told me that he kept his early copper coins in NYC w Stacks while the silver & gold type coins he kept in LA as he knew what humidity would do to the copper . This collector had THE finest condition type set of US coins ever formed back in the mid 80s when it sold at auction. Better than Pogue colln which decades later had many of this LA collector’s coins. LA and FL are not areas you can safely store copper long term. Slabs are not airtight! And dessication absorbant material does not work long term. Perhaps even short term when the humidity seeps into a slab and cant escape.
Longtime advanced numismatist
The only thing you can-do with your double die cent is prevent further damage by removing it from the slab and applying coin oil.
THAT suggestion was the dumbest comment Ive ever read in decades. Or was it said in jest ?
I wonder.
Instead of mocking the question (not a statement, not a "suggestion", mind you, a question) why not answer it?
rock tumbling a coin will abuse tthe whole coin and won't necessarily take care of specific spots
Obviously, he was joking.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
……..
It has been stored in a safety deposit box and then a safe since I have owned it. It is the only copper coin I have with this problem….so I’m not so sure it’s a storage problem…… 🤔
I am not a “coin detective,” but the odd, dark brown color and spots suggest something happened to it. It may have been something that was applied to it before it was struck.
I bought the 1955 doubled die I posted over 40 years ago with ANACS papers with no grade on it. It was voluntary “no grade” from a dealer who, for whatever reason, wanted no grade on it. I sent it to NGC where it got a questionable MS-62, Brown grade. It graded AU-58 + if you want to get really technical. It has not changed over the 40+ years I’ve owned it.
With proper storage and the absence of messing with it, a brown copper coin should not change in your lifetime. Red - Brown and especially Red can be a problem. That’s why I don’t buy Red unless it’s a fairly new (under 50) coin.
Like others have said and I agree
Sell it and move on
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
Improperly mixed planchet or low quality copper? Maybe this came from one of the cigarette packs.
The obverse coloration does seem a bit questionable.
===========================================================================================
"Instead of mocking the question (not a statement, not a "suggestion", mind you, a question) why not answer it?"
Because people thought it was a joke, obviously.
===================================================================================
Picked up this 1917 DDO several years ago already with the reverse verdigris issue present and hoping that I could correct it. Using the Verdi-Care, I was able to remove the surface verdigris. I did seal it with a coin conditioner and it does not appear to be getting worse, but as you can see the damage is done.
I think a puttied coin would be considered an “altered” one. And the good news is that on many occasions, the removal of the putty reveals a coin that’s acceptable at the assigned grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Every PCGS certified puttied gold coin I've either had conserved by PCGS or done so myself have either graded at the same level or in a couple cases upgraded.