1955 Doubled Die cent problem
safari_dude
Posts: 500 ✭✭✭✭✭
Recently I was looking at some of my coins and zoomed in on this one. I was shocked…and upset to see verdigris ‘cancer’ starting to spread around different areas of the obverse. The reverse is still fine. I believe PCGS won’t straight grade a coin with this type of discoloration on it. So my question is this: if I submit it back to PCGS for conservation, would the verdigris come off and the coin returned to its original state with the same grade? Just a cursory look and it isn’t noticeable but under any magnification it is rather concerning. I’d rather get this taken care of ASAP before it gets worse. Thanks! Cheers, karl
I’ve changed the pictures so it’s a bit more clear….
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Comments
Do you have any pics of when you 1st bought it to be sure that it's a real change.
I've seen many straight graded copper coins with verdigris or lack of die lines from its removal.
Crack it and give it a bath in acetone. Should be cracked anyway. Do you live in an area with high humidity? Looks like a liquid seeped into the slab. Acetone may help but it's a mistake to leave the piece in the slab imo.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Unfortunately I don’t. I’ve had it for over 20 years or so. Do you think it will expand or get worse? It’s a beautiful coin but now I’m concerned about it. Would hate to see it lose its value if I can do an ounce of prevention now….. Thanks, karl
Acetone won't touch verdigris
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I live in Hollywood, FL….but keep it in a dry area with desiccant packages around my coins. Would I be better off sending it to PCGS for treatment? It’s too expensive for me to even attempt an acetone bath….ugh. Thanks, karl
If it wasn't there 20 years ago, there's no guarantee the surface is stable so it COULD get worse.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I'm aware of that but if it were mine I'd get it outta that slab pronto. Appears that some kind of liquid has seeped into the slab. Carbonated beverage maybe? Copper carbonate is green.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Verdigris appears on dug Roman coins. I didn't realize Pepsi was the drink of choice at the vomitorium.
Numerous copper compounds are blue, green or blue green. It's the d electrons of the copper not the ligand. Verdigris is typically some combination copper hydroxide and cost acetate and doesn't require carbonate beverages. You can smash get a similar color from oxides. In fact, carbonated beverages are more likely to lead to oxides than carbonates.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Do you think PCGS conservation would help? Would they most likely downgrade the coin?
Yes and probably. That kind of verdigris-like material is hard to remove without leaving a trace.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I get an unexperienced one not wanting to do a DIY acetone treatment. Have you got the piece out of the slab yet?
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Relevant to your coin, especially the last comment by @lkeigwin
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12811481#Comment_12811481
Is color designation the only thing they do not guarantee on copper?
No….I’d rather let experts do it. I just prefer to save the coin rather than see it continue to get eaten up…..
Exactly, people seem to think acetone is some sort of miracle worker -- It is not.
Just remember...the advice you receive on a site is worth every bit of what you paid for it.
unfortunately there is no time machine cleaner, so you demand the green be gone then act now.
neither we nor pcgs can guarantee removal or grade.
the verdigris is a type of corrosion. there may be teeny pits on the heavy spot. unsure about the rest.
but it seems like you want action now. get the cost down on paper and figure if your willing to risk the money.
Also likely to turn that penny a bit pink.
Looks like a bit of corrosion to me...
Pay for conservation. Or do Verdicare and then dab it off and leave it sitting loosely covered to dry for a few months...every penny I've used Verdicare on and graded got a straight grade, true story.
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
I bought it for less than half of what PCGS has its current value listed as…so the risk is more than if I don’t do something now. Just don’t want to see it continue to spread if I can conceivably stop the problem now.
Yah I would send it into pcgs conservation. They know their way around issues like that. You will have to pay full freight for the service as there is no guarantee on coins turning in their holders any longer. That said being a collector and already in a graded holder you stand a decent shot at them returning a ugly albeit treated coin in a graded holder, a fair chance at getting a vastly improved coin back in a graded holder and a slight chance at them declining to conserve it and returning the coin minus shipping. At that point the way forward is clear, blow it out and buy a better one
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Thanks….pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Now to sell an ounce or two of my $17.50 an ounce silver to pay for it all. 😉Cheers, karl
i think you're answering your own question
you're upset. sleep on it and i think you'll know what t do tomorrow
Yes. This coin likely won't come away unscathed. Stains at best, pitting at worst. Hopefully they can treat the surface so it doesn't reoccur. Looks like the coin has some surface issues above and below LIBERTY. Definitely a job for a pro.
Be glad we're not talking about carbon spots.
Just remember...the advice you receive on a site is worth every bit of what you paid for it.
I just read an article that says acetone works to remove green discoloration on copper which, of course, a 1955 penny is 95% made of. Not a miracle worker but I saved a key date buffalo nickel from PCV damage by getting to it early with acetone after contamination.Every coin collector should have some acetone on hand and know how to use it safely to treat their coins with "the greenies." I would use acetone, cross my fingers that it might help get some, maybe most, of the green off. Acetone, used properly, absolutely will do no harm to a coin no matter how long the coin has been immersed in it. No rubbing on the coin though. That's a big no no. Normally, acetone does not leave a residue. It vaporizes rapidly and is totally soluble in water. I always rinse the coin off in distilled water after acetone treatment. Put coin on soft surface and pat or lightly blow dry on low heat to thoroughly dry the piece. I would put it in an inert holder like a Saflip® and heat seal it closed.I have an impulse sealer that works fantastic on Saflip®. Saflips have no oil or PVC. I get the best seal with Saflip® made of Polyethylene Terephthalate. Moisture will be a problem no longer and you have stabilized the piece from further deterioration.I want time on my side when dealing with what I recognize as a piece with a problem. And that means dealing with it sooner than later. Collectors are urged to give conservation a try. Maybe it's not for you but you'll never know if you don't try. A good thing to do is experiment with not expensive coins or even coins found in circulation to get some confidence going so you won't be afraid to work on more expensive pieces down the line. The OP's coin is expensive so, if on the fence about what to do to it to improve or further improve it's appearance while stopping further surface deterioration...OP, do no more than what you already may have done. You choose to do nothing yourself like cracking the piece out and immersing it in acetone.That's fine. I love chemistry, have loved chemistry since I was a kid so yes, i have gotten a good head start in the business of trying to save a coin worthy of being saved for the next generations of collector enjoyment. btw, in my opinion the highest compliment a coin collector can give to another coin collector is to tell them, "You know. You got a pretty good eye for coins." Collector with a youngster in whom you are trying to encourage an interest in numismatics try saying that to him or her at what you decide is the most appropriate time. Then be ready to see your kid beam.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
If it were my coin, I'd sell it as is on eBay with good pics and then move on. My batting average is not good when it comes to "fixing" coins with problems like this.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
PVC is different. Acetone will remove PVC residue, it will not touch verdigris. It is 2 chemically distinct compounds.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I agree with @PerryHall stating to sell it on eBay and move on. I have done similar things in the past and have been able to replace my treasures with little effort.
Just did a quick look on eBay and see mine is in pretty good shape compared to a few that are currently for sale. Hmmmmmmm……🤔😬
Make that three votes for selling and finding one without the issues.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
After reading through the recommendations, I think the best bet would be to just "cut your losses" and sell it on ebay. I do earlier copper coins but my track record on using either Acetone or Coin Care (supposed replacement for Blue Ribbon... it's not) is hit-or-miss at best. True... acetone is good for PVC. The original Blue Ribbon was good for removing verdigris and some green corrosion, but will reveal what's underneath. ..could be benign, but could also reveal pitting, etc...
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Send it in for conservation and then don't think about it for a couple of months.
Collector, occasional seller
Find a EAC guy. They have been dealing with this type of thing much longer than anyone I know.
https://eacs.org/
I would send it to Great Collections and have them sell it for you. They have great photography and a sterling reputation and the eyes of the serious collectors who would shop for a coin like this. They auctioned off quite a bit of my collection and I've been very happy with the results.
Actually I like this suggestion a lot. 🤔
If the coin were mine, I’d sell it, as is and try not to give it another thought.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Me too... maybe more eyes on ebay, but more serious collectors on GC...
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I've used Verdicare with success and subsequently the coin straight graded. Just happened to be a 1955 DDO as well.
Would soaking this coin in Olive Oil be a possible fix? Along with a Rose Thorn gently picking at the green verdigris parts?
It's all about what the people want...
I looked at a few other 55 DDO’s for sale and previously sold at GC. Seems this verdigris problem seems kind of common for this coin.
That is pretty solid advice! I got similar advice here last year about an MS64RB 1909-SVDB in an OGH that was losing its color in large patches that happened over many years. I sold it, and bought a new one that I love, so yeah -- it really worked out for me.
I finally got to a Kennedy half that had the same type problem.
I soaked in an acetone mineral spirit mix then Ezest rinsed in distilled water and then used the tip of a bamboo skewer. I even dipped the tip of the bamboo skewer into the ezest and did some work with that. Do I suggest anyone do this, Heck no, this was just A cheap, albeit silver coin to learn and try things on.
There is black staining where the green crystallization was but other than that no issues.
Put me in the camp of "sell it and move on".
Take the proceeds and buy one without problems, if you still want one.
I still miss mine (no problems, toned, PCGS M63 55DDO) but selling it started my moving on from active collecting, and, that's been ok with me.
So, sell it and figure out what you want to do from then on.
I'm also looking at a 1968-S proof DCAM that PCGS had to pay me the guarantee on, due to a spot...was PR69DCAM.
I will likely just sell it as 40% silver value (with some loss on the silver side). I have kept it for almost 20 years trying to figure it out and that just seems the best course.
I put your DDO into this camp as well, if it were me, today.
they already paid the grade guarantee ?
What's the depreciation on this coin?
How much would he lose?
I would try to have PCGS conserve it. If it grades lower, you will get compensated under the grade guarantee (I think), and it should result in a more saleable coin, or more "keepable" coin.
Guarantees on that coin have long since sunsetted.
I've heard major dealers try to throw anxiety into me about a coin with "terminal" issues, also using terms like "it could spread", to sell to them. I'd take the advice about dedicated copper specialists and their recommendations seriously. If the coin is valued at $2K then "restoration" would probably be over a hundred especially with shipping and re-grading, but at least you'd have PCGS's best treatment.
I am tending to think like you on this. I’ve looked at several for sale and in GC’s archive….and they just don’t come up very often….with several having the same verdigris (or worse) than mine. I think if I go the PCGS conservation route and it survives, it might be easier in the long run. If not, it can always be sold. Seems coins are like houses…..as bad as they seem to us, there is always someone who wants them! 😉cheers, karl
I just read the guarantee, and you are correct. PCGS used to guarantee coins that "turned in the holder", but no longer. If I were the OP I still would have it conserved - even if it were downgraded to AU53 I think it would be more saleable. As it is now, I would think any buyer would want a hefty discount to market value, like at least 1/3.
As an aside, I would think PCGS would still guarantee doctored coins that slipped by them (such as puttied gold coins), but it is not clear to me if that is the case under the new policy.
Total costs:
Cost Summary Table (Estimated for one coin)
Expense Category Estimated Cost
Conservation Evaluation $10
Base Grading Fee $23 – $70+ (varies by tier/value)
Guarantee Premium 3% of final value (min $10)
Handling Fee $10
Return Shipping/Insurance ~$27+
Total Estimated (Excluding Inbound) $70 – $120+
If they value it at $2K then the "restoration" cost would be around $60; NGC let the submitter put a value on it; I'd do it low because it could be a "details" coin under the circumstances worth a lot less.
I had thought that, originally when the guarantee for copper changed, it was only for the color designation.
So, either it changed again, and I admittedly haven't paid attention in close to a decade, or I understood incorrectly originally.
Since most of my slabbed copper is toned (RB/BN) anyway, it didn't matter that much to me about the color designation guarantee changing.
it is more than just color changing - any environmental damage that emerges over time is not covered, including milk spots on modern coins. I guess over the years too may people improperly stored PCGS coins in environments that their holders could not protect the coin from fully. So it seems the guarantee only applies if the coin is overgraded, the way I read it. Perhaps a putty on gold situation might be considered an "overgraded" coin.