UNC vs MS Grading
Raptor48
Posts: 49 ✭✭✭
A while ago someone posted something to the effect that if you wanted to collect coins you needed to be able to grade coins. That statement implied that I shouldn’t be a coin collector. So if this post seems unnecessary or a duplicate, I apologize for my naivety up front. I did try to do a bit of searching for answers before posting.
I generally buy a coin because I am interested in its associated history. I buy a specific coin based on its appearance to me and if the cost is appropriate to the grade given by PCGS or NGC.
In general, I can tell what a G vs VF vs. AU vs MS coin looks like. But NO, I really can’t tell an AU50 from an AU58. To me, at this level it is all about the eye appeal. That being said, I do want to understand certain basics better so let me ask a few questions.
If a coin is never released into circulation by the mint, is it by definition an MS coin. Even if it gets damage when the bag is thrown into a mint vault? What about if mint issues it to a bank but the bank never sends it to any customer (e.g. bank hoards). Is it then by definition an UNC vs an MS? Don’t UNC and MS mean the same thing and hence span the same numerical grade range?
I purchased a coin and sent it to PCGS for grading. It came back “scratch, UNC details”. So if the scratch happened before it went into circulation, isn’t the coin by definition an MS and deserves a grade?
And that last cent minted we saw with the finger print on it, is it still MS?
I seem to recall examples of eighteenth and early nineteenth century coins getting a very low grade simply because it was a very poor strike. So does a very poor strike by definition get a low grade even the coin saw little to no circulation?
I realize that grading is subjective but the “rules” sometimes baffle me. I would appreciate anyone having the patients to tutor someone who wants to remain a coin collector but leave the grading to PCGS or NGC.
Comments
@Raptor48—you have been approved,
...and you may go straight to jail. Do not pass Go and do not collect $200.
Newer collectors have to be quite careful on buying uncirculated coins, really any coins, until they have a reasonable grasp of grading for the coin that they are buying. Best to start out with a good dealer to teach you and sell you good quality coins.
Never ever, should new collectors (or probably even those with more experience, buy raw coins off EBay and expect the picture to match the coin unless you deal with one of the less common larger honest dealers. There are just so many scams and counterfeits on EBay.
But learning to grade is a huge part of the beginning (and advanced) collector toolkit. This place is full of a lot of VERY experienced people and when you jump in the deep end as a new collector you may not feel welcome based on some of the posts, but push on and learn from the experience. The good posters will try to help teach you if you do a lot of work on your own and try to ask good questions.
I don't really post much, but I pretty much read all the posts just to see if I can learn something new, which is easy around here. Do carry on!
Oh, and your question: PCGS and all of the other real TPGs will NOT give you a Sheldon number (0-70) grade on a details coin (scratch, environmental damage, questionable color, cleaned, etc) but only an approximate named grade, Unc, XF, and so on. That is just the way that it works.
And one bit of advice, stop sending in coins until you really understand grading and how grading companies work. If you want an MS64 Flying Eagle buy one that has already been graded by a real grading company: CACG, PCGS, NGC, or ANACS (no sneering please).
You have just purchased some coin collecting education by sending in a details coin.
On the flip side, I bought a few higher priced coins (at least to me) at the FUN show in Orlando a few weeks ago. The dealers I bought them from seemed extremely knowledgeable and said they were sending the coins I had purchased in for crossovers/and possible stickering if they weren’t sold t the show as they were new additions. Before I submitted them, a couple of other ‘experienced eyes’ looked at them and agreed they should be sent on. So far, the two on the higher tiers have both been shot down (green bean and a crossover). So it seems that even those who have been in the business for a while and DO know their stuff, are wrong too. I’m out $200 already in exchange for a quick look/see by CAC….. but had they crossed and or stickered, I’d have done even better with my acquisitions. Good luck. Cheers, karl
I sent in a beautiful 1931S “UNC” Lincoln to PCGS for grading several years ago. I had purchased it from a rather respectable coin dealer in Dallas in the early 80’s. It came back as a 91….questionable color. Seems the folks at PCGS didn’t quite agree with the dealer I purchased it from. Things that really make you go….hmmmmmm…..🤨
Just FYI
this post is duplicated below:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1120225/unc-vs-ms#latest
There's a lot to unpack, so I'm going to try to offer a few tidbits. I read about your issues posting at all last night and hope they would be resolved.
Hopefully some of this helps get you started. Grading is a lifetime of learning, but the basics will become less daunting and make more sense the more you look, read, ask and compare.
Good luck!!
Everything from AU58 down is said to have been circulated, and while we can (and do!) debate the slightest traces of wear and handling at AU58, once a coin is at 55 and below, trace elements of wear and handling become visible, with wear typically starting at the very highest points of the design. Handling is considered usually when there is permanent evidence that disrupts the surfaces of a coin.
The dividing line is trace wear and handling and no trace wear or handling. This is somewhat subjective, but only very slightly.
From AG3 to AU55, grading is typically very "technical", and probably the easiest to document, teach and understand on a series by series basis. I'm not sure were the best resources are today, but the PCGS CoinFacts has excellent grading example images for almost every series in almost every grade.
Without going to far into the realm of what constitutes a condition of MS (Mint State) or UNC (Uncirculated), yes, they are technically the same description.
A coin can be released for circulation and still be uncirculated, as there are a lot of steps and situations that can and do happen between "exactly as minted" off the die press and actually given out in change at the local grocery store ... and even then some of those coins will still qualify as Mint State grades.
Only wear and handling will preclude this. A grader does not know the history of a coin, only it's technical condition.
That said, eye appeal is part of grading. The AN Grading Guide was (is) a great tool to get started with.
That is saying, no wear or handling noticeable, except for the scratch, but the scratch is focal and noticeable enough to preclude us not identifying it as such on the holder and providing a "straight" numerical grade.
This is subjective.
To a purist, maybe not. But yes, it practice it is. No wear or obvious signs of handling other than being touched by a human hand, once.
Technically, this should not happen, as the coin should be measured against how it was produced and how it is now.
That said, even graders often miss striking characteristics, seeing them as wear. As you have noted, for US Coins it is more prevalent with early Federal issues.
Hopefully you stick around, this has helped a little ... and others will also chime in.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
As @Old_Collector noted, you should be really careful about buying coins before you can tell the difference. Otherwise, you are gonna get stuck with mostly low-end, just made the grade coins and not realize it. You should be able to tell a 58 coin from a 50. While eye-appeal is a large part of the difference, there will be less ear on a 58 coin, so you need to learn to see that.
Why not post the city and state you're in and ask experienced collectors near you to PM you for a possible meet-up? Also note which shows you're attending in the near future. I'm sure you'll find some experienced collectors willing to help.
As far as your questions, it does not matter if a coin got scratched at the mint or afterwards. A damaged coin is a damaged coin. Besides, how is a grading company to know if a coin got damaged at the mint or by a collector who mishandled it?
And, no MS or UNC does not mean the coin was never in circulation. It means the coin got saved before there was enough handling for there to be visible wear.
Sorry for your experience. Two points. First, if the dealer really believed they would upgrade, they would not have been in the case. Good sales pitch, but disingenuous.
Second, before you accept advice from "experienced eyes," find out how experienced they actually are. How many of the type of coin under consideration have they submitted to CAC or for upgrade and how successful have they been? That's a tough game and most people I've met are not all that good at it. If someone is only successful 50% of the time, the person has decent eyes, but they're only successful half of the time. That is generally not good for the wallet. Now, if you meet those who are successful 70% and up, then you have a real "grading mentor."
Good luck to both of you and take the time to learn BEFORE you spend serious money. Also, @Raptor48. I'd suggest you find one or two series that "really trip your trigger." The most successful collectors are those who specialize. Or it if you find many series interesting, then consider a type collection. But do what the experienced type collectors do, study the series and become proficient BEFORE you buy the coin. From my experience, collecting a few of this and a few of that is not a terribly successful way to build a collection.
One small quibble: ANACS does assign numerical grades to details coins.
Smitten with DBLCs.
@Raptor48
There is a Resources thread pinned to the top of this US Forum and link below. It has information on various topics.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1006619/resources-books-links-to-read-on-numismatic-series-errors-and-varieties/p01
Information is is the first post (page 1). Go down to Grading and there are some links.
The two pcgs are, the photograde and the pcgs YouTube channel with various grading videos. Links below.
https://www.youtube.com/c/PCGScoin
https://www.pcgs.com/photograde/
https://youtube.com/watch?v=hYCRaWPlTIE Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover of Panama (Van Halen)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dOV1VrDuUm4 Ted Nugent, Hibernation, Live 1976
RLJ 1958 - 2023
There's actually 3 of them
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
One fact you should know. If you are going to get anywhere you have to never stop learning. Example? I recently started collecting Barber dimes. I have a dozen reference books and not a single one shows the difference between XF-40 & EF-45. Thanks to a post by @pursuitofliberty , I just discoverd the PCGS coin facts photograde online. @pursuitofliberty , thanks for your post by the way. good luck. james
Closing this thread to help with the confusion of the duplicate post. But keeping it up because there are some helpful tidbits.
Abby Zechman
PCGS Program Manager, Numismatic Education and Development