1899 P Morgan Dollar - genuine or fake?
Göttinger
Posts: 189 ✭✭✭
Dear US coin collectors and experts,
recently a friend of mine here in Germany bought some silver coins and found this 1899-P Morgan Dollar amongst them.
Unfortunately the pictures he sent me are not great. According to him, the weight and diametre seem to be ok.
Based on the pictures, do you think this might be a genuine coin or is it more likely to be a fake?
Thank you in advance and best regards,
Göttinger
2
Comments
Looks good but it's impaired.
Look genuine to me
Genuine, and possibly a proof, IMO.
Looks like a proof. Tell your friend to not mess with it.
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Looks ok to me as well
Thanks!
I'll ask him to be very careful with this coin.
Next time we meet I'll take some better pictures. May I ask you about the realistic market value of such a coin (raw / ungraded and with all the damage it suffered).
Best regards,
Göttinger
Has the coin been weighed?
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According to him the coin weighs 26.76 grams. But I'm not sure how accurate his scale is.
There’s no way to provide a meaningful “realistic market value” without knowing whether the coin is a circulation strike or a Proof. The latter would be much more valuable, but it’s difficult to tell from the images if that’s what it is.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
send it in to get graded
It looks like a proof to me as well, based on the images provided, but without seeing it in hand, tough to tell.
Before spending the money to do that, if possible, it would be better to get a couple of in-hand opinions from knowledgeable numismatists. As if the coin’s not a Proof, it doesn’t appear to merit the cost of grading.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agreed with several commenters above, it appears genuine and either proof or proof-like, but with the following caveats:
1) It's impossible to tell from photos
2) There appears to be some damage (perhaps from an attempt at cleaning?)
3) 1899P is a low mintage for the Morgan dollar, and thus higher value. That should make people suspicious. 1898P or 1900P both have much higher mintages and lower values. That said, the 'cleaning' marks (if that's what they are) would be weakly circumstantial evidence to suggest it may actually be genuine.
@dan91659 or @MFeld 's advice is best - get it evaluated by experts, and/or send it to get graded. Professionals have the tools and experience to make a better determination than people on a coin board looking at mediocre quality photos. Also, Morgans are everywhere, so you can bet that any grading service is filled with people who have seen thousands - maybe tens of thousands - of Morgans.
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I'd get it into a holder asap. Even an express submission would be justified by upside potential.
there are counterfeits with damage
put absolutely no evidentiary value in "damaged = helpful to be real"
Looks like an impaired proof. There was only one pair of dies used for proof 1899 Morgans and it's documented quite well on VAMWorld (1899 VAM 1A). Look through the pictures and you'll see lots of tiny die scratches and polishing lines that are present on genuine coins. These are the diagnostics that, at the end of the day, will be useful for authentication.
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Although I highly respect your opinion I must disagree in as the 1899 is a much better date and this one would do well authenticated with PCGS.
On a side note, I think it may also be a "California Special."
It’s unlikely that the upside potential of an express submission would be justified if the coin is a circulation strike.> @Tranquility said:
I understand that it’s a better date and also wouldn’t be shocked if it were an altered “California Special”.
I still think it would be better to have it checked out before hurrying to submit it for authentication and grading. As there’s no downside in trying to get a better understanding of the coin, if for no other reason, than to help decide what potential submission tier and insurance value to use.
That said, I stand corrected - I shouldn’t have said “It’s unlikely that the upside potential of an express submission would be justified if the coin is a circulation strike.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The problem with getting the coin "checked out" is that depending on where the op lives, that may be hard. Most all the shops locally where I live would not render a decision on whether the coin was a proof or not. The cheapest grading decision would be one of the lower tier companies, Anacs or Icg where all in the cost would be less than $50.
Thank you for all your kind replies.
Both the owner of the coin and me are Germans, living in northern Germany. So finding a expert on US coins is not that easy around here.
Also we have never submitted coins to a grading company, so this whole process is pretty unfamiliar. Grading coins is not very popular in major parts of Europe.
Since I don't know that much about US coins, could you please explain to to me what you mean with "California Special"?
As soon as I get to see the coin in person, I will provide you with better pictures and the accurate weight.
Best regards,
Göttinger
Understood, which is why I prefaced my suggestion about first getting in-hand opinions from knowledgeable numismatists with “if possible”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Interesting coin.
I can't comment any better than the guys above.
I hope its a proof.
I like the wire rim!
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Maybe he can share a video to get a better perspective.
Get some extra eyes on it to help
Curious as to how this coin was acquired.
My friend is hunting second-hand-shops, charity shops and estate sales in the Düsseldorf area (Germany) for overlooked pieces of silver and antique books / art. Since he is not really interested in coins, he often asks me for some help.
In this case he found two silver coins, the depicted Morgan Dollar and a 1921 Peace Dollar (wich seems to be cleaned and scratched).
As per an article in COINWEEK, a “California Proof” (otherwise known as a “California Special”) dollar is “a doctored Morgan silver dollar that has had its field polished and its devices treated with acid so as to impart a frosted cameo appearance. The term originated in the 1970s when this phenomenon was first noticed.
Cataloger John Murbach once noted that marks on true Deep Mirror Prooflike (DMPL) or Prooflike (PL) examples would appear brilliant (as the frost would have been removed by contact).”
I tried multiple times to include a link to the article but for some reason, my post wouldn’t appear when I did so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I believe NGC grades coins in Munich while PCGS does in Paris.
It looks like a proof based on the images, but it might "details" grade.
I'm going to pre-emptively GTG at PR62
Collector, occasional seller
Yeah, I was on the fence about whether to even say that. A contemporary counterfeit may have been cleaned a long time ago by an unsuspecting owner, or a more modern counterfeit may have been deliberately cleaned or damaged to make it appear more authentic.
Heck, even a really clever counterfeiter at the turn of the 20th century may have deliberately cleaned it to assuage suspicion. It's been argued that whoever made the "worn" Class III 1804 dollars at the Mint wore them down deliberately, to assuage suspicion when selling them to collectors. See John Kraljevich's catalog commentary on the James A. Stack dollar that just sold at Stack's Bowers in December 2025.
In any case, this is an excellent thread.
Serving the greater Mechanicsburg and Camp Hill, PA area
https://zenithbullionconsulting.wordpress.com/
If the OP @Göttinger lives in Texas and can bring it to the ANACS table at the Houston Money Show in Conroe on Friday or on Saturday morning, I would be happy to examine it.
Earlier today, he posted “Both the owner of the coin and me are Germans, living in northern Germany.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ah I missed that. Bummer.
NGC in Europe
Locations: NGC has offices in Munich, Germany, and London, UK, providing strong local support.
Services: Offers regular on-site grading events, acceptance of various coins (modern, vintage, tokens, medals), and specific submission forms.
Website: ngccoin.uk.
PCGS in Europe
Location: Operates from Paris, France, with a strong presence in the European market.
Services: Provides European-specific submission services, including online portals like PCGSEurope.com, and partners with dealers for submissions.
Website: pcgseurope.com.
Just…. Make absolutely certain no one messes with the surfaces of that coin, and keep us updated.
I'll keep you updated. I just hope my friend did not mess with the coin and accidentally scratched it....
Well, today he told me that he sent it to my adress, the package should arrive over the next two days.
Thanks, that's some good advise! I'll probably send it to NGC in Munich since parcels to France usually take a lot of time (up to 20 days) and parcels to the UK are pretty much a nightmare since they left the EU (a lot of new fees, bureaucracy and artificial delays - my aunt lives in the UK and over the past few years there were countless problems with the parcels we occasionally send each other).
Here's a link to the PCGS page on the 1899 proofs which you can compare pictures and pricing: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1889-1/7324
Today the coin arrived via mail.
According to my (pretty accurate) scale, it weighs 26.67 grams.
Taking reasonably good pictures is pretty hard, here are my attempts:
Looks nice.
Can we have this picture:
But with the lighting of this picture?
Collector, occasional seller
Looks good to me. Not sure whether MS-DMPL or Proof
I'll try to take some better pictures tomorrow. For today all the natural light is gone and I only have my Samsung phone as a camera - not optimal for taking good pictures.
Looks like the proof from photos but must have these die markers. If yes, better photos not needed.
It looks like both markers are there from what I can see on my iPad….
Why not take it to a well-known dealer like Kunker?
I see some notable obverse hairlines that the grading companies may not like. A details graded proof 1899 Morgan is worth around US$1,500-2,000.
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My God that’s a Stunning Coin and worth a Forttune!
It’s not worth a fortune with the hairlines and facial marks seen in the images provided in the initial post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Oh Yes….
A very nice find, and I'm quite confident it is a genuine Proof.
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