It has begun! The luck turned and the fans turned! We don't want "working-class-trust-your-gut-cause-the-numbers-are-for-mcdaniels-go-on-4th" Dan Campbell! Now we need "physics-degree-follow-the-analytics-and-stick-to-the-book" Dan Campbell!
truth of the matter is the guy has been making bone-head decisions from a statistical perspective his entire career as a HC and when the team covers up those mistakes we only see the success of these "trust your team decisions". But when the probabilities catch up we demand they return to the safety of the numbers.
He's always been a cowboy. Hrm. He's always been a Cowboy. That could work.
i think the most disturbing aspect of that game for me was the fact that Jerod Goff looked like he was going to be disemboweled every time he dropped back to pass. i was sitting there thinking to myself, "is Philly's D really this good?" haven't seen a QB look that rattled in a long time. an inordinate number of his passes weren't even sniffing the receiver because i think he was more concerned about actually living.
and i think that ties into Campbell being averse to punts and field goal attempts. i like the aggression, but not when it's crystal clear that your offense has no answers for the Eagles' defense. every time they went for it on 4th down, no part of me thought they'd convert. they had the look of a team that was discombobulated on offense all night long.
@perkdog said:
I was high on Denver and low on KC before the season started, at this point I have no reason to believe that KC won't win their division based on the fact that I do not trust Bo Nix at all, I think he has regressed and he pretty much sucks and I will never trust the Chargers
KC 27
Denver 16
Looks like I was wrong
I owe Bo Nix an apology, he played well
Flags were irrelevant
The Chiefs just flat out sucked.
I get kind of tired of Mahomes saying he has to get better and stop making mistakes and then making a stupid throw when the game is tied that cost them at least a field goal. He’s just not a clutch player like he used to be. Not hungry like when he came up.
Another case of too many commercials and outside interests taking precedence over football. He’s rich and satisfied now, no more greatness in him.
Kind of like when Tiger Woods sold his soul to Nike.
Mahomes 1 rush 3 yrds , I saw that and said something is not right big time. Maybe he has a leg injury.
As for the Vikings - I'm bummed we lost but I'm more annoyed at how doom and gloom everyone is about McCarthy's performance. It's a franchise that has no patience for any form of a rebuild or the learning curve needed to progress a young QB. So many folks wanted a franchise QB (let's face it - they've only had one pan out) but have zero tolerance. I have no doubt that McCarthy will get better. I think he over-hypes himself up. Kill the "nine" persona and the face paint, sooner than later - which I'm sure he will. He also had about 5 key drops that doesn't help... For that matter, I would like to see Jefferson remove all of his diamonds and just go play ball.
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Great points. McCarthy is too "pumped up" and overthrows some passes and is trying to force the ball to Jefferson. McCarthy was pretty terrible for most of the game.
Then, he goes 6 for 8 on his last drive and we take the lead with under a minute remaining.
What does our brilliant head coach do? Kicks the ball to the Bears and they break a big return, giving them a big boost in confidence and they kick the game winning field goal with 4 seconds remaining.
For a first year QB, JJ looks lost, psyched up out of his mind and then occasionally looks like he has the potential to be a very good leader.
The Bears QB was the #1 overall pick and he looked pretty bad yesterday, except for his running.
I'm hoping McCarthy can "settle down" a little bit. I see his potential as well as his flaws. Those flaws can be fixed.......I hope.
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Last, it's nauseating to see all of these had the Vikings just lost one more game in the draft and Passtronaut not won a meaningless game three seasons ago, they would have drafted Drake Maye - enough already. This is one of about seven what-if scenarios at QB. That said, I'm still not over the Lewis Cine - Kyle Hamilton - Jameson Williamson draft/trade with Detroit.
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We're on the same page here too. I remember when several draft publications rated Kyle Hamilton as the best football player in the draft. The Vikes needed a cornerback and were unlikely to get Gardner. They didn't go after "Sauce" in a trade, didn't take Hamilton, yet moved around and took Cine, a Safety!
I'm not as upset about winning some meaningless games the year Cousins got hurt, but that (obviously) cost us a better draft position.
First we need to find people who know how to draft. KOC is a HORRIBLE in game coach. Get rid of him and promote Flores to Head coach before he goes somewhere else, and find an offensive coordinator who can put some plays in that utilize the receivers we have. O'Connell goes too deep all the time. I haven't seen ANY quick slants since he got here.
I'm also a little concerned with Jefferson becoming another in a long line of "hot dog" receivers. He failed to catch a couple of passes he should have caught in the last couple of games and seems to be too upset on the sidelines.
Yesterday's game might have been the poorest example of football I've seen in my almost 60 years of watching the Vikings, but they should have come out with a victory.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I just heard that Mahomes cap hits for the next 2 seasons are $78MM and $74MM. I am too lazy to look it up for myself, but if true, that will make it exceedingly difficult to retool the next few seasons for KC.
you can only kick the can down the road for so long.
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
@craig44 said:
I just heard that Mahomes cap hits for the next 2 seasons are $78MM and $74MM. I am too lazy to look it up for myself, but if true, that will make it exceedingly difficult to retool the next few seasons for KC.
you can only kick the can down the road for so long.
What will save them is Rice and Worthy are really solid and I think they are still going to be on their rookie deals through those hits
Not 100% sure and I don't care enough to look it up either lol
@craig44 said:
I just heard that Mahomes cap hits for the next 2 seasons are $78MM and $74MM. I am too lazy to look it up for myself, but if true, that will make it exceedingly difficult to retool the next few seasons for KC.
you can only kick the can down the road for so long.
What will save them is Rice and Worthy are really solid and I think they are still going to be on their rookie deals through those hits
Not 100% sure and I don't care enough to look it up either lol
possible. and KC GM is pretty creative, but there comes a limit to restructuring.
I am not sold on Rice. some would have us believe he is an elite #1 WR. I am just not seeing it. averaging about 60 ypg for his career. no elite speed like worthy.
I know he is supposed to be KC's savior but dont know, I just am not seeing it with him.
@craig44 said:
I just heard that Mahomes cap hits for the next 2 seasons are $78MM and $74MM. I am too lazy to look it up for myself, but if true, that will make it exceedingly difficult to retool the next few seasons for KC.
you can only kick the can down the road for so long.
What will save them is Rice and Worthy are really solid and I think they are still going to be on their rookie deals through those hits
Not 100% sure and I don't care enough to look it up either lol
Worthy is a little scary. His strength is his speed and ankle injury might take him the year to get that back taking the top off the defense. Rice you just gotta worry if he can stop getting arrested lol
I dont really like the Chiefs chances this year of making the playoffs with what they have left
@estang said:
I'm taking Campbell over Siriani to out-dumb the other with inexplicable coaching decisions.
That said, Siriani is closing the gap after the last two very late-game decisions the past two weeks.
The thing is that these moronic decisions already cost Dan Campbell a chance to play in the Super Bowl after he refused to take multiple FG attempts on 4th down to stay comfortably ahead of SF, he failed every time and SF win 34-31
The guy is an idiot and is wasting Detroit's best chances,, if I'm the owner I'm firing him
Every Lion fan I've talked to absolutely love Campbell. He was a hard watch on Hard-Knocks in what was his first or second year with every other word being "man" or a cuss-word.
He's actually the right guy for them at the right time. That said, the shine in MI will wear off if he doesn't make better decisions - when they don't work out.
I watched him botch a 10-point lead in MN live a few years ago with my wife and daugther. The Vikes had no business winning but Campbell couldn't help himself with 4th down go for its and fake punts.
I'm not sure him taking on play calling duties is going to help him out if they continue to put up little points. I believe he was only the offensive coordinator in the past because the coaches above/around him got fired in MIA and NO.
@estang said:
I'm taking Campbell over Siriani to out-dumb the other with inexplicable coaching decisions.
That said, Siriani is closing the gap after the last two very late-game decisions the past two weeks.
The thing is that these moronic decisions already cost Dan Campbell a chance to play in the Super Bowl after he refused to take multiple FG attempts on 4th down to stay comfortably ahead of SF, he failed every time and SF win 34-31
The guy is an idiot and is wasting Detroit's best chances,, if I'm the owner I'm firing him
Every Lion fan I've talked to absolutely love Campbell. He was a hard watch on Hard-Knocks in what was his first or second year with every other word being "man" or a cuss-word.
He's actually the right guy for them at the right time. That said, the shine in MI will wear off if he doesn't make better decisions - when they don't work out.
I watched him botch a 10-point lead in MN live a few years ago with my wife and daugther. The Vikes had no business winning but Campbell couldn't help himself with 4th down go for its and fake punts.
I'm not sure him taking on play calling duties is going to help him out if they continue to put up little points. I believe he was only the offensive coordinator in the past because the coaches above/around him got fired in MIA and NO.
I'm sure he is a likable guy with that rough big guy persona but that will wear off once the Lions get sent packing after a bunch of moronic decisions by him which is bound to happen again.
He is consistent, I'll give him that but 0-5 on 4th downs last night? I guess stubborn or pig headed is the word I'd use to describe him.
If I'm a Detroit fan I'm already done with him, they will run him out of town if his moronic decisions keep costing them games, Detroit has a real chance at being a contender but are being held back by some cowboy style decisions
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
I'll take action on that
Caleb Williams is far better than McCarthy right now, he is more durable ( So far ) and is a more polished passer
@perkdog will get his wish this week when Sheduer Sanders gets the start for the Browns due to the Gabriel concussion. We’ll get to see how he performs on a full game.
And in a repeat of the Jalen Carter incident it seems Ja’mar Chase has received a suspension for spitting on another player. What is wrong with these players??
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@Maywood said: @perkdog will get his wish this week when Sheduer Sanders gets the start for the Browns due to the Gabriel concussion. We’ll get to see how he performs on a full game.
And in a repeat of the Jalen Carter incident it seems Ja’mar Chase has received a suspension for spitting on another player. What is wrong with these players??
I saw that about Chase, he denied it fully but forgot that everything is on film?
Spitting on someone is so degrading, borderline just as bad as a racist insult
I like Chase but he deserves a harsh punishment over it, it's absolutely disgusting behavior
I was wrong about Sanders, I fully thought he would be a capable starter come week 5
I am looking forward to seeing him play a full game, hopefully Stefanski gets him plenty of reps with the starters lol
I want Sanders to do well, for some reason I find myself really rooting for the kid, the last several weeks he has kept his mouth shut and done the right thing.
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
I dont like either of them, but to have Jefferson and Addison they have to be getting frustrated at this point. I would bet Williams has the better career but neither with be good
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
I'll take action on that
Caleb Williams is far better than McCarthy right now, he is more durable ( So far ) and is a more polished passer
FAR better? Considering he was supposed to be a HOFer right out of college as a first overall pick? He also has 27 games started in the NFL to McCarthy's 5.
Caleb's really good at escaping the rush and running.
He only completed 50% of his passes Sunday, just like JJ, who had 2 interceptions and a touchdown pass. Caleb had just as many horrible throws and less drops by his receivers than McCarthy Sunday.
Caleb SHOULD be better. Higher draft pick and a year and a half as a starter.
He didn't look much better Sunday. His best games this year were against Dallas and Cincinati. Two bad teams.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@galaxy27 said:
Caleb has engineered 5 game-winning drives this season
does that suck?
asking for a friend
Are you counting Sunday's victory over the Vikings as a game winning drive?
BOTH QB's were bad most of the game, with JJ being worse. Then he led the Vikings right down the field and (finally) threw a TD pass to take the lead with less than a minute left in the game. THAT was a game "winning" drive.
Caleb did nothing to be credited with any late heroics. The kick returner won the game.
Give Vikings coach O'Connell an assist for not kicking off out of the end zone like anyone with a brain would have. He's the worst in game coach I've ever seen in Minnesota and I've seen them all except Van Brocklin.
Caleb has had a couple of good games against 3 win teams this year. Something I noticed last year, he's good against lousy teams.
How'd he do against Detroit? McCarthy beat Detroit. Asking for a friend. 😉
If McCarthy is as crappy halfway through next season as Caleb is right now, I'll be shocked.
Caleb looks to be a great runner as a QB, very few of them last long or win big.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
I dont like either of them, but to have Jefferson and Addison they have to be getting frustrated at this point. I would bet Williams has the better career but neither with be good
Williams is a great athlete and runner. In the (few) games I've seen him, he misses a lot of open receivers.
Running QB's never last.
McCarthy overthrows receivers too, but he's had 5 games in the NFL. I'm hoping he'll relax as he gains experience and the throws will come down. If not, he won't last very long. He has also thrown some GREAT passes, just not often enough......so far.
Vikings receivers didn't help him much Sunday, there were 4 or 5 drops that should have been caught. Maybe the receivers were surprised the ball was catchable? 😀
Even Theilen dropped a pass he should have caught, he usually catches everything. Jefferson also failed to catch at least one he should have pulled in. Ladt week he dropped a pass in the end zone that should have been a TD. Then we have to settle for a field goal and McCarthy gets blamed for not getting us a touchdown 😒
Basically Sunday was one of the worst games I've EVER seen, and even though neither team deserved to win, the Vikings should have been victorious.
Fire KOC and promote Flores to Head Coach. O'connell's stupidity has cost us several games. Everyone here loves him because he's such a nice guy.
I'll take Mike Zimmer in a heartbeat.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
I'll take action on that
Caleb Williams is far better than McCarthy right now, he is more durable ( So far ) and is a more polished passer
FAR better? Considering he was supposed to be a HOFer right out of college as a first overall pick? He also has 27 games started in the NFL to McCarthy's 5.
Caleb's really good at escaping the rush and running.
He only completed 50% of his passes Sunday, just like JJ, who had 2 interceptions and a touchdown pass. Caleb had just as many horrible throws and less drops by his receivers than McCarthy Sunday.
Caleb SHOULD be better. Higher draft pick and a year and a half as a starter.
He didn't look much better Sunday. His best games this year were against Dallas and Cincinati. Two bad teams.
It's unfair to compare them since Caleb has more games under his belt
I stand by saying Williams will be better, reality is Darnold is better than both and Minny should have kept Darnold and we wouldn't be having this conversation
@craig44 said:
can I end this dispute with just one name?
Drake Maye!!!
I told @perkdog to stock up on his rookie cards the minute NE drafted him. I saw a 6’5” 230 lb rookie that was more polished than Josh Allen coming out of college. I also knew Vrabel was going to be their coach. So far my investment has paid handsomely. Next year will be the high water test when they play a first place schedule.
W.C.Fields "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
@estang said:
I'm taking Campbell over Siriani to out-dumb the other with inexplicable coaching decisions.
That said, Siriani is closing the gap after the last two very late-game decisions the past two weeks.
The thing is that these moronic decisions already cost Dan Campbell a chance to play in the Super Bowl after he refused to take multiple FG attempts on 4th down to stay comfortably ahead of SF, he failed every time and SF win 34-31
The guy is an idiot and is wasting Detroit's best chances,, if I'm the owner I'm firing him
Campbell seems to have this macho attitude that field goals are for sissies. Taking a chance on 4th down no and then might make sense, but he has made a habit of it.
In the mean time, other teams have field goal kickers who can hit from 60 yards out, and they are winning games.
It's also interesting to note that the Eagles' "tush push" is turning into “the fall on your butt” play. Not only have they failed to make it work recently, but they are now seem to be prone to illegal motion penalties, which don't get called sometimes.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Field Goals aren’t for sissies in the modern NFL but Dan Campbell is old school. I think he probably regrets not kicking but I have always felt that a FG is a reward for failure.
The object of football is to cross the other team’s goal line so a part of my core salutes Campbell for making the stand and going for it.
In the modern NFL a team no longer has to cross the goal line, they only need to reach the 40 to win.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Field Goals aren’t for sissies in the modern NFL but Dan Campbell is old school. I think he probably regrets not kicking but I have always felt that a FG is a reward for failure.
The object of football is to cross the other team’s goal line so a part of my core salutes Campbell for making the stand and going for it.
In the modern NFL a team no longer has to cross the goal line, they only need to reach the 40 to win.
field goals have gotten to "easy" you are correct, late in games teams only have to get to the 40 (or 45) to win. I think it is time to make them more difficult. Do like baseball did in 69 and lower the mound. except make the uprights more narrow or some such thing. take them from 18'6" down to 14' or something.
@Basebal21 said:
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
I'll take action on that
Caleb Williams is far better than McCarthy right now, he is more durable ( So far ) and is a more polished passer
FAR better? Considering he was supposed to be a HOFer right out of college as a first overall pick? He also has 27 games started in the NFL to McCarthy's 5.
Caleb's really good at escaping the rush and running.
He only completed 50% of his passes Sunday, just like JJ, who had 2 interceptions and a touchdown pass. Caleb had just as many horrible throws and less drops by his receivers than McCarthy Sunday.
Caleb SHOULD be better. Higher draft pick and a year and a half as a starter.
He didn't look much better Sunday. His best games this year were against Dallas and Cincinati. Two bad teams.
It's unfair to compare them since Caleb has more games under his belt
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I agree completely.
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I stand by saying Williams will be better, reality is Darnold is better than both and Minny should have kept Darnold and we wouldn't be having this conversation
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I'll disagree here because I don't like running QB's and because I WANT McCarthy to be better. 😂
Minnesota should have absolutely kept Darnold or at the very least signed Jones and let McCarthy develop. But they seem to be in a hurry with JJ.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Field Goals aren’t for sissies in the modern NFL but Dan Campbell is old school. I think he probably regrets not kicking but I have always felt that a FG is a reward for failure.
The object of football is to cross the other team’s goal line so a part of my core salutes Campbell for making the stand and going for it.
In the modern NFL a team no longer has to cross the goal line, they only need to reach the 40 to win.
field goals have gotten to "easy" you are correct, late in games teams only have to get to the 40 (or 45) to win. I think it is time to make them more difficult. Do like baseball did in 69 and lower the mound. except make the uprights more narrow or some such thing. take them from 18'6" down to 14' or something.
I was thinking at least put a bar across the top, making it a rectangle the kicker has to put the ball through.
If that's not enough, lower the top "bar" or narrow the goalposts.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
How'd he do against Detroit? McCarthy beat Detroit. Asking for a friend. 😉
If McCarthy is as crappy halfway through next season as Caleb is right now, I'll be shocked.
so then it stands to reason that if McCarthy took out Goff & the Lions, he should have had no problemos whatsoever this past weekend at home with a bottom-of-the-barrel guy like Williams and an inferior team like the Bears, no?
if you want to formulate an opinion based on two games against your team, that's your prerogative. but i watch every snap of every Bears game every year. in fact, i had a buddy send me a text me yesterday asking what i thought about them. i told him i'm ecstatic with the progress, but i'm not delusional. we're not one of the better teams in the NFL, even at 7-3. i haven't had a single wet dream about the Super Bowl. but we're trending in the right direction, and it's because of Johnson. not only has he completely altered the culture, but he's been pivotal in the maturation process of Caleb. if we still had Matt Eberf*ck as HC, we'd still be languishing in obscurity and CW's growth would have been retarded in his 2nd year. instead of running the clock out with a TO in our hip pockets on the final drive of games (as we did last Thanksgiving), we're instead blowing down the field and winning close games with regularity this season. that does not make us legit. but it's a vast improvement. that's what winning vs. losing tells me.
as for McCarthy being as crappy as Caleb halfway through next season, you should be so fortunate. as it stands, Caleb is sitting at 33 & 10 a year and a half into his career. McCarthy, on the other hand, has completed more passes to the other team than he has to his own teammates in the end zone. i'm not going to sit here and label him a guaranteed bust when he's only played a handful of games (like basebal has), but what i will say is that when you have weapons like Jefferson, Addison & Hockenson at your disposal, you should never play like Shedeur Sanders out there. and prior to Minny's final drive, that's exactly who he looked like.
edit: we have a rough schedule from here on out. i do not expect us to make the playoffs. but if we do, it'll be because of our crappy quarterback. in two weeks we play Philly. that will be the perfect litmus test for Caleb. the Eagles' D rendered Jared Goff all but useless last Sunday night.
How'd he do against Detroit? McCarthy beat Detroit. Asking for a friend. 😉
If McCarthy is as crappy halfway through next season as Caleb is right now, I'll be shocked.
so then it stands to reason that if McCarthy took out Goff & the Lions, he should have had no problemos whatsoever this past weekend at home with a bottom-of-the-barrel guy like Williams and an inferior team like the Bears, no?
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He didn't. Left the game he won with a great drive. Only to see it lost by the stupid coach.
Caleb didn't win the game with a 4th quarter comeback. He played better than JJ (as he should have) but not very well.
As frustrated as I was with McCarthy's play for most of the game AND several drops by Minnesota's receivers, he took the team down the field and threw a touchdown pass in the final minutes of the game. That was really the only time in the entire (pathetic) game either QB looked good. McCarthy seems to go from terrible to terrific. I see great potential IF he can correct his tendency to "overthrow" receivers. My main point is, and always has been, that it's too early to tell.
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if you want to formulate an opinion based on two games against your team, that's your prerogative. but i watch every snap of every Bears game every year.
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My response was more of a comment rebutting your "5 game winning drives" evidence that "proves" Williams is good.
I have watched (almost) every single snap of every single Vikings game since 1967 or so. Not sure what that proves.
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as for McCarthy being as crappy as Caleb halfway through next season, you should be so fortunate. as it stands, Caleb is sitting at 33 & 10 a year and a half into his career.
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Looks like he is 12-15 as a starter.
I was interested and worried when the Bears got Williams as the top pick in the draft. He was said to be a combination of Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes. Ready to step in an win the next 15 or 20 Super Bowls. I watched his games against the Vikings and checked out a few more to keep an eye on him. I didn't say too much negative about him, because he was a rookie. Other than his great ability as a runner to avoid sacks, I saw an inaccurate passer who only played well against bad teams. That seems to be how he's still playing. He's young, so I'm not predicting he's going to be a "bust". I will say I haven't seen a running QB have long term success in the NFL.
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McCarthy, on the other hand, has completed more passes to the other team than he has to his own teammates in the end zone. i'm not going to sit here and label him a guaranteed bust when he's only played a handful of games in his career (like basebal has), but what i will say is that when you have weapons like Jefferson, Addison & Hockenson at your disposal, you should never play like Shedeur Sanders out there. and prior to Minny's final drive, that's exactly who he looked like.
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I don't know anything about Shedeur Sanders, so I can't respond to that part.
I will say that the Vikings are rushing him in as a starter for some stupid reason. We had 2 options of veteran starting quarterbacks in Darnold and Jones on the roster.
Keeping one of them and letting McCarthy develop would have been my choice.
No doubt McCarthy has looked overwhelmed out there at times. He also has shown flashes of being a QB who can lead his team very well.
The Vikings have had some O line issues early, then JJ was hurt and now his receivers have been dropping catchable balls.
Our head coach is also a complete moron. He's absolutely clueless on coaching during the games. He also has to take some blame for not calling plays that utilize his great receivers. I haven't seen a single quick slant pass since KOC got here. Everything is medium to deep throws and he doesn't run the ball enough. We have 2 pretty darn good running backs this year. Give JJ a little help!
I don't know how McCarthy is going to develop, just too early to tell.
The damn Packers do one thing right, they wait for a guy to be ready before they make him the starter!
I hate the Packers.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
My response was more of a comment rebutting your "5 game winning drives" evidence that "proves" Williams is good.
I have watched (almost) every single snap of every single Vikings game since 1967 or so. Not sure what that proves.
it proves that unless you've watched every Bears game this season, you're unaware of late-game heroics that have us sitting at 7-3 as opposed to 3-7. doesn't mean we're great and doesn't mean Caleb is upper echelon, but what it does mean is that his play was the difference between us winning & losing multiple games. that's indisputable, no matter what you think of him. that's progress and a huge step in the right direction. trust me, as a long-suffering Bears fan, that's progress.
as for McCarthy, he's an enigma. i've watched him play twice now against my team. first game he was horrific for 3 quarters, then someone flipped a switch. last Sunday had a similar feel. he played poorly the majority of the game, then out of nowhere he spearheads an impressive drive that resulted in a house call at the tail end of the game. i attribute that to him still being sopping wet behind the ears. if he can take his 4th Q play against the Bears and extend it over four quarters, he'll be fine
@JoeBanzai said: Minnesota should have absolutely kept Darnold or at the very least signed Jones and let McCarthy develop. But they seem to be in a hurry with JJ.
There's no reason to believe that Darnold or Jones would have played well if they had been the starters for the Vikings all season. I really think the Vikings management made the same mistake, in almost identical fashion, that the Browns made. Both assessed unproven players(McCarthy, Gabriel, Sanders) as being better than their proven albeit flawed veterans(Darnold, Jones, Flacco). Whether any of the three younger players ever prove themselves is anyone's guess. But you're correct in stating that more time to develop is really needed.
NFL QB's mature at different paces. When the Patriots drafted Jones they thought he was ready when in truth he still needed 3-4 years to mature. Same with Darnold. It could be the same with McCarthy. NFL QB is maybe the hardest of all positions in pro sports to assess. Guys like Patrick Mahomes are the exception to the rule. I always think of 2 guys, Jim Kelly and Frank Reich as examples of what it takes to be an NFL QB. Kelly spent a few years in the "minor leagues" with the USFL before joining Buffalo, Reich held a clipboard for 3 years before getting a chance.
That's old school how it used to be done. If either of those guys had stepped right in as a starter after being drafted there's every reason to believe they would have flopped.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@VikingDude said:
I'd pay money to see Ja'Marr Chase's appeal paperwork for spitting on Jalen Ramsey. What reason would there be for not suspending him???
Comments
Dan Campbell on the Price is Right be like
It has begun! The luck turned and the fans turned! We don't want "working-class-trust-your-gut-cause-the-numbers-are-for-mcdaniels-go-on-4th" Dan Campbell! Now we need "physics-degree-follow-the-analytics-and-stick-to-the-book" Dan Campbell!
truth of the matter is the guy has been making bone-head decisions from a statistical perspective his entire career as a HC and when the team covers up those mistakes we only see the success of these "trust your team decisions". But when the probabilities catch up we demand they return to the safety of the numbers.
He's always been a cowboy. Hrm. He's always been a Cowboy. That could work.
I can't stand him as a HC, the guy is a buffoon, that Lions team doesn't deserve him
i think the most disturbing aspect of that game for me was the fact that Jerod Goff looked like he was going to be disemboweled every time he dropped back to pass. i was sitting there thinking to myself, "is Philly's D really this good?" haven't seen a QB look that rattled in a long time. an inordinate number of his passes weren't even sniffing the receiver because i think he was more concerned about actually living.
and i think that ties into Campbell being averse to punts and field goal attempts. i like the aggression, but not when it's crystal clear that your offense has no answers for the Eagles' defense. every time they went for it on 4th down, no part of me thought they'd convert. they had the look of a team that was discombobulated on offense all night long.
Mahomes 1 rush 3 yrds , I saw that and said something is not right big time. Maybe he has a leg injury.
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Great points. McCarthy is too "pumped up" and overthrows some passes and is trying to force the ball to Jefferson. McCarthy was pretty terrible for most of the game.
Then, he goes 6 for 8 on his last drive and we take the lead with under a minute remaining.
What does our brilliant head coach do? Kicks the ball to the Bears and they break a big return, giving them a big boost in confidence and they kick the game winning field goal with 4 seconds remaining.
For a first year QB, JJ looks lost, psyched up out of his mind and then occasionally looks like he has the potential to be a very good leader.
The Bears QB was the #1 overall pick and he looked pretty bad yesterday, except for his running.
I'm hoping McCarthy can "settle down" a little bit. I see his potential as well as his flaws. Those flaws can be fixed.......I hope.
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We're on the same page here too. I remember when several draft publications rated Kyle Hamilton as the best football player in the draft. The Vikes needed a cornerback and were unlikely to get Gardner. They didn't go after "Sauce" in a trade, didn't take Hamilton, yet moved around and took Cine, a Safety!
I'm not as upset about winning some meaningless games the year Cousins got hurt, but that (obviously) cost us a better draft position.
First we need to find people who know how to draft. KOC is a HORRIBLE in game coach. Get rid of him and promote Flores to Head coach before he goes somewhere else, and find an offensive coordinator who can put some plays in that utilize the receivers we have. O'Connell goes too deep all the time. I haven't seen ANY quick slants since he got here.
I'm also a little concerned with Jefferson becoming another in a long line of "hot dog" receivers. He failed to catch a couple of passes he should have caught in the last couple of games and seems to be too upset on the sidelines.
Yesterday's game might have been the poorest example of football I've seen in my almost 60 years of watching the Vikings, but they should have come out with a victory.
I just heard that Mahomes cap hits for the next 2 seasons are $78MM and $74MM. I am too lazy to look it up for myself, but if true, that will make it exceedingly difficult to retool the next few seasons for KC.
you can only kick the can down the road for so long.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The doom and gloom with McCarthy is just that NFL fans are now seeing what college fans saw for years from him. If he can figure it out good for him, but the Vikings weapons are way too good for performances like that all the time and hes already cost them two games if not three. Bears should have been an easy win
Fire AJ Preller
What will save them is Rice and Worthy are really solid and I think they are still going to be on their rookie deals through those hits
Not 100% sure and I don't care enough to look it up either lol
possible. and KC GM is pretty creative, but there comes a limit to restructuring.
I am not sold on Rice. some would have us believe he is an elite #1 WR. I am just not seeing it. averaging about 60 ypg for his career. no elite speed like worthy.
I know he is supposed to be KC's savior but dont know, I just am not seeing it with him.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Worthy is a little scary. His strength is his speed and ankle injury might take him the year to get that back taking the top off the defense. Rice you just gotta worry if he can stop getting arrested lol
I dont really like the Chiefs chances this year of making the playoffs with what they have left
Fire AJ Preller
Every Lion fan I've talked to absolutely love Campbell. He was a hard watch on Hard-Knocks in what was his first or second year with every other word being "man" or a cuss-word.
He's actually the right guy for them at the right time. That said, the shine in MI will wear off if he doesn't make better decisions - when they don't work out.
I watched him botch a 10-point lead in MN live a few years ago with my wife and daugther. The Vikes had no business winning but Campbell couldn't help himself with 4th down go for its and fake punts.
I'm not sure him taking on play calling duties is going to help him out if they continue to put up little points. I believe he was only the offensive coordinator in the past because the coaches above/around him got fired in MIA and NO.
Erik
I'm sure he is a likable guy with that rough big guy persona but that will wear off once the Lions get sent packing after a bunch of moronic decisions by him which is bound to happen again.
He is consistent, I'll give him that but 0-5 on 4th downs last night? I guess stubborn or pig headed is the word I'd use to describe him.
If I'm a Detroit fan I'm already done with him, they will run him out of town if his moronic decisions keep costing them games, Detroit has a real chance at being a contender but are being held back by some cowboy style decisions
damn skippy
But they should have lost. Their quarterback was horrible as well and he was a #1 overall pick and had 26
NFL starts before the game.
I'll bet McCarthy has a better career than Williams.
I like to think I’m a little bit “John Daly”.
I'll take action on that
Caleb Williams is far better than McCarthy right now, he is more durable ( So far ) and is a more polished passer
Caleb has engineered 5 game-winning drives this season
does that suck?
asking for a friend
@perkdog will get his wish this week when Sheduer Sanders gets the start for the Browns due to the Gabriel concussion. We’ll get to see how he performs on a full game.
And in a repeat of the Jalen Carter incident it seems Ja’mar Chase has received a suspension for spitting on another player. What is wrong with these players??
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I saw that about Chase, he denied it fully but forgot that everything is on film?
Spitting on someone is so degrading, borderline just as bad as a racist insult
I like Chase but he deserves a harsh punishment over it, it's absolutely disgusting behavior
I was wrong about Sanders, I fully thought he would be a capable starter come week 5
I am looking forward to seeing him play a full game, hopefully Stefanski gets him plenty of reps with the starters lol
I want Sanders to do well, for some reason I find myself really rooting for the kid, the last several weeks he has kept his mouth shut and done the right thing.
We shall see how he does
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I dont like either of them, but to have Jefferson and Addison they have to be getting frustrated at this point. I would bet Williams has the better career but neither with be good
Fire AJ Preller
Bengals should resist urge to bring Joe Burrow back, plus game balls from Week 11 - CBS Sports https://share.google/66oh0xM38U9YuCkKj
This article makes some sense, if I'm Cincy I'm putting Burrow on the shelf and trading him for draft picks
Even if they dont trade him at this point Im saying get healthy for next year our year is over
Fire AJ Preller
FAR better? Considering he was supposed to be a HOFer right out of college as a first overall pick? He also has 27 games started in the NFL to McCarthy's 5.
Caleb's really good at escaping the rush and running.
He only completed 50% of his passes Sunday, just like JJ, who had 2 interceptions and a touchdown pass. Caleb had just as many horrible throws and less drops by his receivers than McCarthy Sunday.
Caleb SHOULD be better. Higher draft pick and a year and a half as a starter.
He didn't look much better Sunday. His best games this year were against Dallas and Cincinati. Two bad teams.
Are you counting Sunday's victory over the Vikings as a game winning drive?
BOTH QB's were bad most of the game, with JJ being worse. Then he led the Vikings right down the field and (finally) threw a TD pass to take the lead with less than a minute left in the game. THAT was a game "winning" drive.
Caleb did nothing to be credited with any late heroics. The kick returner won the game.
Give Vikings coach O'Connell an assist for not kicking off out of the end zone like anyone with a brain would have. He's the worst in game coach I've ever seen in Minnesota and I've seen them all except Van Brocklin.
Caleb has had a couple of good games against 3 win teams this year. Something I noticed last year, he's good against lousy teams.
How'd he do against Detroit? McCarthy beat Detroit. Asking for a friend. 😉
If McCarthy is as crappy halfway through next season as Caleb is right now, I'll be shocked.
Caleb looks to be a great runner as a QB, very few of them last long or win big.
Williams is a great athlete and runner. In the (few) games I've seen him, he misses a lot of open receivers.
Running QB's never last.
McCarthy overthrows receivers too, but he's had 5 games in the NFL. I'm hoping he'll relax as he gains experience and the throws will come down. If not, he won't last very long. He has also thrown some GREAT passes, just not often enough......so far.
Vikings receivers didn't help him much Sunday, there were 4 or 5 drops that should have been caught. Maybe the receivers were surprised the ball was catchable? 😀
Even Theilen dropped a pass he should have caught, he usually catches everything. Jefferson also failed to catch at least one he should have pulled in. Ladt week he dropped a pass in the end zone that should have been a TD. Then we have to settle for a field goal and McCarthy gets blamed for not getting us a touchdown 😒
Basically Sunday was one of the worst games I've EVER seen, and even though neither team deserved to win, the Vikings should have been victorious.
Fire KOC and promote Flores to Head Coach. O'connell's stupidity has cost us several games. Everyone here loves him because he's such a nice guy.
I'll take Mike Zimmer in a heartbeat.
It's unfair to compare them since Caleb has more games under his belt
I stand by saying Williams will be better, reality is Darnold is better than both and Minny should have kept Darnold and we wouldn't be having this conversation
can I end this dispute with just one name?
Drake Maye!!!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I told @perkdog to stock up on his rookie cards the minute NE drafted him. I saw a 6’5” 230 lb rookie that was more polished than Josh Allen coming out of college. I also knew Vrabel was going to be their coach. So far my investment has paid handsomely. Next year will be the high water test when they play a first place schedule.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Campbell seems to have this macho attitude that field goals are for sissies. Taking a chance on 4th down no and then might make sense, but he has made a habit of it.
In the mean time, other teams have field goal kickers who can hit from 60 yards out, and they are winning games.
It's also interesting to note that the Eagles' "tush push" is turning into “the fall on your butt” play. Not only have they failed to make it work recently, but they are now seem to be prone to illegal motion penalties, which don't get called sometimes.
that field goals are for sissies
Field Goals aren’t for sissies in the modern NFL but Dan Campbell is old school. I think he probably regrets not kicking but I have always felt that a FG is a reward for failure.
The object of football is to cross the other team’s goal line so a part of my core salutes Campbell for making the stand and going for it.
In the modern NFL a team no longer has to cross the goal line, they only need to reach the 40 to win.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
field goals have gotten to "easy" you are correct, late in games teams only have to get to the 40 (or 45) to win. I think it is time to make them more difficult. Do like baseball did in 69 and lower the mound. except make the uprights more narrow or some such thing. take them from 18'6" down to 14' or something.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'm waiting for the first time a team takes the ball after touchback on their 35 and kicks a field goal. That's football.
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I agree completely.
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I'll disagree here because I don't like running QB's and because I WANT McCarthy to be better. 😂
Minnesota should have absolutely kept Darnold or at the very least signed Jones and let McCarthy develop. But they seem to be in a hurry with JJ.
No.
I was thinking at least put a bar across the top, making it a rectangle the kicker has to put the ball through.
If that's not enough, lower the top "bar" or narrow the goalposts.
so then it stands to reason that if McCarthy took out Goff & the Lions, he should have had no problemos whatsoever this past weekend at home with a bottom-of-the-barrel guy like Williams and an inferior team like the Bears, no?
if you want to formulate an opinion based on two games against your team, that's your prerogative. but i watch every snap of every Bears game every year. in fact, i had a buddy send me a text me yesterday asking what i thought about them. i told him i'm ecstatic with the progress, but i'm not delusional. we're not one of the better teams in the NFL, even at 7-3. i haven't had a single wet dream about the Super Bowl. but we're trending in the right direction, and it's because of Johnson. not only has he completely altered the culture, but he's been pivotal in the maturation process of Caleb. if we still had Matt Eberf*ck as HC, we'd still be languishing in obscurity and CW's growth would have been retarded in his 2nd year. instead of running the clock out with a TO in our hip pockets on the final drive of games (as we did last Thanksgiving), we're instead blowing down the field and winning close games with regularity this season. that does not make us legit. but it's a vast improvement. that's what winning vs. losing tells me.
as for McCarthy being as crappy as Caleb halfway through next season, you should be so fortunate. as it stands, Caleb is sitting at 33 & 10 a year and a half into his career. McCarthy, on the other hand, has completed more passes to the other team than he has to his own teammates in the end zone. i'm not going to sit here and label him a guaranteed bust when he's only played a handful of games (like basebal has), but what i will say is that when you have weapons like Jefferson, Addison & Hockenson at your disposal, you should never play like Shedeur Sanders out there. and prior to Minny's final drive, that's exactly who he looked like.
edit: we have a rough schedule from here on out. i do not expect us to make the playoffs. but if we do, it'll be because of our crappy quarterback. in two weeks we play Philly. that will be the perfect litmus test for Caleb. the Eagles' D rendered Jared Goff all but useless last Sunday night.
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He didn't. Left the game he won with a great drive. Only to see it lost by the stupid coach.
Caleb didn't win the game with a 4th quarter comeback. He played better than JJ (as he should have) but not very well.
As frustrated as I was with McCarthy's play for most of the game AND several drops by Minnesota's receivers, he took the team down the field and threw a touchdown pass in the final minutes of the game. That was really the only time in the entire (pathetic) game either QB looked good. McCarthy seems to go from terrible to terrific. I see great potential IF he can correct his tendency to "overthrow" receivers. My main point is, and always has been, that it's too early to tell.
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My response was more of a comment rebutting your "5 game winning drives" evidence that "proves" Williams is good.
I have watched (almost) every single snap of every single Vikings game since 1967 or so. Not sure what that proves.
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Looks like he is 12-15 as a starter.
I was interested and worried when the Bears got Williams as the top pick in the draft. He was said to be a combination of Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes. Ready to step in an win the next 15 or 20 Super Bowls. I watched his games against the Vikings and checked out a few more to keep an eye on him. I didn't say too much negative about him, because he was a rookie. Other than his great ability as a runner to avoid sacks, I saw an inaccurate passer who only played well against bad teams. That seems to be how he's still playing. He's young, so I'm not predicting he's going to be a "bust". I will say I haven't seen a running QB have long term success in the NFL.
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McCarthy, on the other hand, has completed more passes to the other team than he has to his own teammates in the end zone. i'm not going to sit here and label him a guaranteed bust when he's only played a handful of games in his career (like basebal has), but what i will say is that when you have weapons like Jefferson, Addison & Hockenson at your disposal, you should never play like Shedeur Sanders out there. and prior to Minny's final drive, that's exactly who he looked like.
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I don't know anything about Shedeur Sanders, so I can't respond to that part.
I will say that the Vikings are rushing him in as a starter for some stupid reason. We had 2 options of veteran starting quarterbacks in Darnold and Jones on the roster.
Keeping one of them and letting McCarthy develop would have been my choice.
No doubt McCarthy has looked overwhelmed out there at times. He also has shown flashes of being a QB who can lead his team very well.
The Vikings have had some O line issues early, then JJ was hurt and now his receivers have been dropping catchable balls.
Our head coach is also a complete moron. He's absolutely clueless on coaching during the games. He also has to take some blame for not calling plays that utilize his great receivers. I haven't seen a single quick slant pass since KOC got here. Everything is medium to deep throws and he doesn't run the ball enough. We have 2 pretty darn good running backs this year. Give JJ a little help!
I don't know how McCarthy is going to develop, just too early to tell.
The damn Packers do one thing right, they wait for a guy to be ready before they make him the starter!
I hate the Packers.
it proves that unless you've watched every Bears game this season, you're unaware of late-game heroics that have us sitting at 7-3 as opposed to 3-7. doesn't mean we're great and doesn't mean Caleb is upper echelon, but what it does mean is that his play was the difference between us winning & losing multiple games. that's indisputable, no matter what you think of him. that's progress and a huge step in the right direction. trust me, as a long-suffering Bears fan, that's progress.
as for McCarthy, he's an enigma. i've watched him play twice now against my team. first game he was horrific for 3 quarters, then someone flipped a switch. last Sunday had a similar feel. he played poorly the majority of the game, then out of nowhere he spearheads an impressive drive that resulted in a house call at the tail end of the game. i attribute that to him still being sopping wet behind the ears. if he can take his 4th Q play against the Bears and extend it over four quarters, he'll be fine
@JoeBanzai said: Minnesota should have absolutely kept Darnold or at the very least signed Jones and let McCarthy develop. But they seem to be in a hurry with JJ.
There's no reason to believe that Darnold or Jones would have played well if they had been the starters for the Vikings all season. I really think the Vikings management made the same mistake, in almost identical fashion, that the Browns made. Both assessed unproven players(McCarthy, Gabriel, Sanders) as being better than their proven albeit flawed veterans(Darnold, Jones, Flacco). Whether any of the three younger players ever prove themselves is anyone's guess. But you're correct in stating that more time to develop is really needed.
NFL QB's mature at different paces. When the Patriots drafted Jones they thought he was ready when in truth he still needed 3-4 years to mature. Same with Darnold. It could be the same with McCarthy. NFL QB is maybe the hardest of all positions in pro sports to assess. Guys like Patrick Mahomes are the exception to the rule. I always think of 2 guys, Jim Kelly and Frank Reich as examples of what it takes to be an NFL QB. Kelly spent a few years in the "minor leagues" with the USFL before joining Buffalo, Reich held a clipboard for 3 years before getting a chance.
That's old school how it used to be done. If either of those guys had stepped right in as a starter after being drafted there's every reason to believe they would have flopped.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I'd pay money to see Ja'Marr Chase's appeal paperwork for spitting on Jalen Ramsey. What reason would there be for not suspending him???
There isn't one