Does there need to be another sticker company?
chesterb
Posts: 984 ✭✭✭✭✭
I’ve seen some coins lately in CACG holders that I question if they would have stickered if they were presented to the graders in Bedminster. So I wonder if the “sticker business people developing a grading company” concept works if the sticker people don’t have the final say. I mean I might as well send in my nice coins that failed CAC stickers into the grading company as I think they are nice problem-free coins.
So I wonder if the sticker business is best done as an independent 3rd party? Or maybe I just need to rethink CACG holdered coins as equivalent to those with a CAC sticker.
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PCGS CAC is the gold standard.
No, there doesn’t need to be another sticker company. And the current sticker business is already being done “as an independent 3rd party”.
There will never be perfectly consistent grading opinions between different companies or within each individual company.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I consider the actual sticker business as 4 (or 4th) party grading.
The concept of 3rd party grading was always thought of as the opinions of the buyer (1), the seller (2) and the grading company (3). Enter in a "Quality Assurance" for the 3rd party (the grading company), and you have 4th party.
I think the CACG is still just 3rd party, as there is no 4th party involved.
my 2c ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Since you disagree with the grades or evaluations, perhaps there should be a "chesterb" sticker company just for you. Similarly, since I do not always agree with every TPG or sticker decision, perhaps there should be a "TomB" company just for me. In the end, maybe what we really need to do is for each of us to individually arm ourselves with numismatic knowledge and avoid coins we don't want, like and understand while incorporating those we do want, like and understand.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@TomB
I'm buying your coins if your aviator is the sticker you are going to use
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$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I think it’s fair to say I’m Tom’s aviator, and no, you can’t use me as a sticker.
No - woukd be overkill.
What about QA LOL!
There is a place for some others. I personally like EE for Indians.
There you go, injecting logic and reasoning, we need more stickers!
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Personally I like the PCGS with CAC. This is because we are human and even really really knowledgeable graders sometimes make mistakes or have biases. Having it graded independently by a knowledgeable third party (that doesn’t have a vested interest In what the grade is) and verified by another independent party has value. CACG just doesn’t have the same setup, it’s stepping back to the same potential for mistakes in grading, because it’s not independently verified twice, just once.
It’s not like you can send CACG coin through CAC, they’re not going to argue with their own grades.
CACG has a great grading service, I’m not saying otherwise, it’s just missing something that CAC provides.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
"Coin Grading
CAC was founded to combat the inconsistencies in coin grading and to put a stop to over-grading coins. The CAC Stickering service made an impact on the hobby, but John Albanese and Ron Drzewucki wanted to do more (learn more about Our Team to understand why these names matter). So in 2022, they assembled over 150 leading members of the numismatic community with a purpose to reclaim accuracy and consistency in grading. After all, why merely appraise and evaluate a previously certified coin (our Stickering service) when the same stringent standards can be applied within the context of a grading service?
Boasting the highest quality grading team in the industry—including John Albanese, Ron Drzewucki and John Butler—CAC is committed to applying an unparalleled level of expertise to every submitted coin so that hobbyists, collectors, dealers, and investors can have total confidence in a CAC-graded coin."
CACG
Well that sticker company already exists, you can try CMQ which doesn't evaluate coins quite the same as CAC stickering, it will probably suffice.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Hi folks;
The OP asks, should the sticker business be done by an independent 3rd party? I have wondered this question myself (though perhaps for reasons different from the OP's) because it seems that an inconsistency arises from the relationship between CACG and CAC.
Suppose that a PCGS-65 Morgan dollar gets sent in for a CAC sticker, whereupon it fails. My understanding of CAC is that this coin may be a legitimate 65 to CAC, but not nice enough among all 65s to warrant a sticker. Now suppose the coin is cracked out and sent in raw to CACG. It can’t come back in a CACG-65 holder since CACG holdering is tantamount to stickering at the grade determined by CACG. So it comes back less than 65. But this implies that every PCGS-65 Morgan that fails to sticker must be 64+ or less to CACG, contravening my understanding that under CAC, MS-65 Morgans exist that won’t sticker.
Please help me out here. In the meantime, I'll continue to have great respect for all 3 entities, while ultimately buying the coin, not the holder.
Whit
I don’t think so. CAC is established. It’s not like when PCGS and NGC came out in a brand new business model together almost together. I know anacs was first and there were others before them but anyway I don’t think we need more sticker companies if CAC wants to grow they should offer to sticker ANacs slabs and PCI labs and ICG slabs. I wonder what that would do to the coin market.
I think they should start a new sticker company that only stickers the best of the stickered coins. Something new we could all hate and criticize for awhile then everybody wants them.
No... I don't think we need another stickering company. Gosh, we already have enough TPGs... we have CAC and for certain issues there are niche graders too... I'm thinking Eagle Eye for Indian Head Cents. At one point, tongue in cheek, we were contemplating sending coins to RickO (RIP) for the Blast White seal of approval... enough!
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My daughter is a head librarian. She buys packages of stickers and gives them out as prizes for various contests. Anyone who feels a need for more stickers need only buy some for themselves and go nuts. James
Have you cracked out any PCGS coins that didn't sticker and sent them in and have or have not had them CACG at the same or different grade.
I think there needs to be a turd sticker for poorly graded TPGS coins.
At my local coin shop.
Guy is buying a proof bison nickel. Dealer has 3 , 1 has a gold bean and the dealer is selling for mucho bucks.
Collector goes “I’ll take the non stickered one, as its much cheaper and I don’t collect stickers”
Dealer goes “gold bean means that the coin is undergraded”
Collector goes “If I want stickers I’ll go buy some bananas”
🍌
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Turd Party Grading….it all makes sense now…🤔😂
NO
Proud follower of Christ!
Show me the coin and I’ll give you a free opinion. No sticker necessary.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I would be interested in seeing the following experiment:
Collect twenty of the same denomination (Morgans or something, a coin that the grading companies should be the most consistent with) in PCGS (or NGC, but make sure they’re all one or the other) that have all been sent to CAC and rejected for stickering. Record the grades and take pics in the holders. Crack them out and submit them raw to CACG for grading, see what they come back at.
I’m genuinely curious.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Interesting indeed. See my post above.
Whit
Question, esp. if you are or have been a grader. How easy is it for you to remember coins that you've seen before either in a submission or in a dealer's case?
This thread is useless without pictures.
Proud follower of Christ!
Not him stealing the LOLS!
Proud follower of Christ!
I don't think pictures will change that.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
For far more coins than not, I wouldn’t remember. Others, depending upon factors such as their rarity and/or distinguishing features, I’ve recognized immediately, decades later. Of course, ideally, even if a grader doesn’t recognize a coin, he’ll still be consistent in his grading.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One thing that has occurred to me and this is not to keep any controversy going is, how do we know if a coin is an A,B or C coin if its in a CAC holder.
Am I wrong?
This is really tongue in cheek.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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Tongue in cheek, but people have already talked about sending coins back in to CAC for reconsideration, and getting the sticker. So I’m guessing those won’t be A coins.
@Walker21D
They may not be A coins.
I am suggesting that coins that get slabbed by CAC and are obviously not stickered, how would we know if the coin is an AB or C?
I highly doubt that CAC will sticker there own coins.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
The sticker is and would be redundant as CAC is adamant that stickering and grading use the same standards. All CACG coins are A & B coins or C coins from the next higher grade.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Shocked that no one has mentioned the Stacks Griffin.
1/3 down the page, I mentioned CMQ.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I've seen some really ugly, over-graded coins with CAC stickers, just as I've seen some well-deserved coins with CAC stickers. So while CAC stickers help, they are not a guarantee of a superior coin. Although, if looking to sell, CAC-stickered coins are undisputably a guarantee of a super price -- whether deserved or not.
While CAC-stickered coins increase the likelihood of obtaining a strong sale price, they are indisputably not “a guarantee of a super price”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think we have one too many "sticker companies" already.
But I know that I'm an outlier.
Heck, I don't think we should have things like "full bands" on Mercury dimes, or ""full head" on SLQs, or "full bell lines" on Franklin half dollars. Or any other such things that a buyer can see just fine, and make up his or her own mind.
I don't think that a coin that requires an expert with a microscope to see that it was "cleaned" 100 years ago should be consigned to the trash bin, while truly ugly coins get straight grades. Again, the buyer can see just fine, and make up his or her own mind just fine.
I am glad there are grading companies; they perform a very valuable service. But I don't like them becoming nannies. And I think that CAC is just a super nanny.
I completely agree with you @124Spider. I do not like the Full Bands and Full Head designations, and I will not pay the premium those designations bring. I have seen far too many encapsulated Mercury dimes designated as Full Bands and Standing Liberty quarters designated as Full Head, that can only be said to have been generously graded -- and some even have CAC stickers.
Many times the overall strikes on Full Bands and Full Head coins are not that good. In fact, some are very weakly struck in other areas. But shouldn't the overall strike be more important than one tiny spot on the coin?
I've always questioned why there is a Full Head designation on Standing Liberty quarters but not on Walking Liberty halves -- but also very happy that there is not.
Agree; at FUN, a dealer had two AU55 large cents, same date, both PCGS graded. The CAC coin had hazy, dull surfaces and a weak strike. The non-CAC coin had glossy, lustrous surfaces and was well struck. It was also priced $100 higher than its stickered counterpart. The dealer’s assistant I was talking to didn’t know if both had been submitted or not, but agreed with me which one had superior eye appeal and commanded the premium price.
But, head to head in an online auction, who knows how they might play out.
I believe there is a common misconception that coins that do not receive a sticker are most likely C coins deserving a grade one below with a plus.
I recently sent in a box of 20 for a long time collector friend. Here are his results.
Green Sticker 3
Questionable Toning 1
Cleaned 3
Abrasions 6
PVC 7
Most likely the six abrasions could come back with a lower grade at CACG. The other eleven, not likely
Yes, based on my experience, most coins that don't sticker probably suffer from one of the issues you listed. I'm not sure if the abrasions would render a coin Details or lead to a lower grade.
http://ProofCollection.Net
@DisneyFan I’m curious, were all 20 coins already in straight grade (PCGS?) holders? did you or your friend spot the potentially PVC-damaged coins before sending them in to CAC? Were the results way off from what you both had expected?
Yes, they were all straight graded older PCGS coins. Three green stickers out 20 was a disaster! We've done better in the past.
I suspected the questionable toning; otherwise, we were looking for 19 stickers. In this case, the abrasions would result in a lower grade, They were not readily apparent; but, were enough to downgrade a coin. We had checked for PVC beforehand; however, it was not as obvious; except for one coin which looked to be toning instead of PVC.
No, they will not sticker their own graded coins, it is listed in their policies for coin stickering. They only accept PCGS and NGC, although they state that they will consider ANACS "in rare circumstances" but has anyone ever seen one of those?
When I was a little kid, my favorite stickers were Smurf stickers. Just sayin'.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.