@NJCoin said:
Not a "nothing burger." A conspiracy between someone at the Mint and a large buyer or buyers to violate published Mint policy. To the detriment of the public and for the benefit of larger dealers.
Would love to see your proof. In about 10 minutes or less I could setup a bot to monitor the inventory pages for any mint product I want and have it alert me the second inventory becomes available. How do you know they didn't just do that?
And what policy does the mint have against selling large quantities to one person/company if there is no HHL?
I'm afraid you missed the entire point. I am not saying the dealer did anything wrong. Go back and read the thread if you want "proof" of what happened. Go back and read the Mint's press release regarding this very issue. You'll find the policy right there.
For the umpteenth time, the Mint absolutely CAN do anything it wants. Including terminating numismatic sales altogether, going to a wholesale only model like they do with bullion, anything.
The entire point is that you allege (as a fact) that there was a conspiracy between a dealer and the mint. You have no proof of this. I posed a very possible scenario - the use of a bot to be notified when they were available and then purchased coins on the website. Why are you so sure that didn't happen?
What they can't do is say they are going to do one thing, and then do another. If they weren't a government agency, the FTC might very well be investigating them for consumer fraud over what they did here.
I don't see the issue. Large buyers regularly buy large quantities of mint products on the website. This isn't against any policy or published statement.
Why am I so sure?
Because the 4K in question were not made available at release, and the Mint did not accept Back Orders for them.
Because the Mint promptly lifted the HHL after 24 hours, implying there would be no more coins to sell, other than returns.
Because the Mint very clearly stated in a press release "The mintage is set at 12,000 units, with orders limited to one coin per household for the first 24 hours of sales."
Because the Mint did not take orders for up to 12K coins for the first 24 hours of sales.
Because the Mint sales report for the week ending 8/24 showed 7350 coins sold.
Because the Mint made the additional 4K coins available for sale, with no HHL and no notice or warning, on 9/12.
Because those coins disappeared in 15 minutes.
Because @RAWcoin observed 2K of those coins disappear in one fell swoop.
Because the Mint sales report for the week ending 9/21 showed 11,972 coins sold.
Because the 2K coins were promptly offered for sale on a dealer network, as reported here by @wondercoin.
Because no dealers were interested in those coins.
Because the Mint promptly reinstated the HHL, in advance of something being offered to the public.
Because the 2K coins in question were indeed offered to the public this past Friday, with the HHL that was lifted on 8/22 reinstated.
Because the Mint sales report for the week ending 9/28 showed 11,063 coins sold, reflecting the 2K coins returned to inventory, net of those sold between Friday and Sunday.
The rest involves connecting dots, or a confession from the person at the Mint responsible for lifting and reinstating the HHL, and for not taking Back Orders for the coins not ready to be shipped on 8/21, in order to ensure coins were available for bulk purchase after that date. The HHL was lifted to allow the bulk sales, and then reinstated to ensure, once again "fair" distribution to the public after it was clear there was no dealer demand for those coins. I can't help you with either one. Believe what you want. I'll do the same.
I happen to believe there was a conspiracy between one or several people at the Mint, and one or several bulk buyers, to set aside coins that, by policy and public announcement, were supposed to be reserved for sale to the public, one at a time, during the first 24 hours of sales, in order to ensure they would be available for sale to bulk purchasers later. Which they were, on 9/12.
It just so happens, things didn't work out for one of those bulk purchasers, and the scheme was exposed for all to see. Except you, who sees nothing. Which is fine. This does not have to bother you.
In fact, it's perfectly okay for the Mint to operate like this. As long as they either announce it ahead of time, or, as some here would prefer, they just say nothing at all.
Saying something that turns out to be a lie is consumer fraud. They didn't have to say anything at all. But they did. They said, "The mintage is set at 12,000 units, with orders limited to one coin per household for the first 24 hours of sales."
Not the same as what they did, which was "the mintage is set at 12,000 units, with orders for 6K limited to one coin per household for the first 24 hours of sales, 2K reserved for ABPP purchasers, and 4K reserved for future release, with no HHL, at a date and time of our choosing, with no public announcement, and probably a private announcement to the people we are holding the coins back for. If things don't work out for these very special customers, we will reimpose the HHL for an additional 24 hours, and make whatever they don't want available to the public. Again at an indeterminate date and time of our choosing. Thank you for your patronage and unrequited loyalty."
@jmlanzaf said:
Well, we've definitively proven that it is possible to write 2000 words and say absolutely nothing.
Well, we're still waiting for a response to the question as to whether this is not "good fiction" or a "nothing burger." Or whether something can be both at the same time.
Because whatever it is, it turned to be, rather than fiction, exactly what it looked like it might be. You can't bring yourself to ever give anyone credit, can you? Even though you are early and often pointing fingers when people get things wrong.
Once one gets to the point where words and disclosures mean nothing, anyone can do anything they want, and everything is a nothing burger. I'm just not there yet.
@NJCoin said:
Not a "nothing burger." A conspiracy between someone at the Mint and a large buyer or buyers to violate published Mint policy. To the detriment of the public and for the benefit of larger dealers.
Would love to see your proof. In about 10 minutes or less I could setup a bot to monitor the inventory pages for any mint product I want and have it alert me the second inventory becomes available. How do you know they didn't just do that?
And what policy does the mint have against selling large quantities to one person/company if there is no HHL?
I'm afraid you missed the entire point. I am not saying the dealer did anything wrong. Go back and read the thread if you want "proof" of what happened. Go back and read the Mint's press release regarding this very issue. You'll find the policy right there.
For the umpteenth time, the Mint absolutely CAN do anything it wants. Including terminating numismatic sales altogether, going to a wholesale only model like they do with bullion, anything.
The entire point is that you allege (as a fact) that there was a conspiracy between a dealer and the mint. You have no proof of this. I posed a very possible scenario - the use of a bot to be notified when they were available and then purchased coins on the website. Why are you so sure that didn't happen?
What they can't do is say they are going to do one thing, and then do another. If they weren't a government agency, the FTC might very well be investigating them for consumer fraud over what they did here.
I don't see the issue. Large buyers regularly buy large quantities of mint products on the website. This isn't against any policy or published statement.
Why am I so sure?
Because the 4K in question were not made available at release, and the Mint did not accept Back Orders for them.
Because the Mint promptly lifted the HHL after 24 hours, implying there would be no more coins to sell, other than returns.
Because the Mint very clearly stated in a press release "The mintage is set at 12,000 units, with orders limited to one coin per household for the first 24 hours of sales."
Because the Mint did not take orders for up to 12K coins for the first 24 hours of sales.
Because the Mint sales report for the week ending 8/24 showed 7350 coins sold.
Because the Mint made the additional 4K coins available for sale, with no HHL and no notice or warning, on 9/12.
Because those coins disappeared in 15 minutes.
Because @RAWcoin observed 2K of those coins disappear in one fell swoop.
Because the Mint sales report for the week ending 9/21 showed 11,972 coins sold.
Because the 2K coins were promptly offered for sale on a dealer network, as reported here by @wondercoin.
Because no dealers were interested in those coins.
Because the Mint promptly reinstated the HHL, in advance of something being offered to the public.
Because the 2K coins in question were indeed offered to the public this past Friday, with the HHL that was lifted on 8/22 reinstated.
Because the Mint sales report for the week ending 9/28 showed 11,063 coins sold, reflecting the 2K coins returned to inventory, net of those sold between Friday and Sunday.
The rest involves connecting dots, or a confession from the person at the Mint responsible for lifting and reinstating the HHL, and for not taking Back Orders for the coins not ready to be shipped on 8/21, in order to ensure coins were available for bulk purchase after that date. The HHL was lifted to allow the bulk sales, and then reinstated to ensure, once again "fair" distribution to the public after it was clear there was no dealer demand for those coins. I can't help you with either one. Believe what you want. I'll do the same.
I happen to believe there was a conspiracy between one or several people at the Mint, and one or several bulk buyers, to set aside coins that, by policy and public announcement, were supposed to be reserved for sale to the public, one at a time, during the first 24 hours of sales, in order to ensure they would be available for sale to bulk purchasers later. Which they were, on 9/12.
It just so happens, things didn't work out for one of those bulk purchasers, and the scheme was exposed for all to see. Except you, who sees nothing. Which is fine. This does not have to bother you.
In fact, it's perfectly okay for the Mint to operate like this. As long as they either announce it ahead of time, or, as some here would prefer, they just say nothing at all.
Saying something that turns out to be a lie is consumer fraud. They didn't have to say anything at all. But they did. They said, "The mintage is set at 12,000 units, with orders limited to one coin per household for the first 24 hours of sales."
Not the same as what they did, which was "the mintage is set at 12,000 units, with orders for 6K limited to one coin per household for the first 24 hours of sales, 2K reserved for ABPP purchasers, and 4K reserved for future release, with no HHL, at a date and time of our choosing, with no public announcement, and probably a private announcement to the people we are holding the coins back for. If things don't work out for these very special customers, we will reimpose the HHL for an additional 24 hours, and make whatever they don't want available to the public. Again at an indeterminate date and time of our choosing. Thank you for your patronage and unrequited loyalty."
I see nothing here that makes the scenario of an aggressive buyer (most likely a dealer) simply using a monitoring bot to alert them to the new inventory and being ready to make a large purchase without requiring any coordination or collusion with the mint. You assign ill motives because you have an axe to grind and that clouds your perspective. I think you forget that the mint could care less if they sell them all in 1 hour or a few months. They are not a retail operation worrying about optimizing cash usage and cash flow. While there is no doubt that they prefer to offer a product and be "done with it" in a reasonable amount of time as anyone would, mint management is perfectly happy if a coin sells out over the period of a few months. Other than illegal kickbacks, there is simply no incentive for them to conspire.
Comments
These words make perfectly sense to me.
Well, we're still waiting for a response to the question as to whether this is not "good fiction" or a "nothing burger." Or whether something can be both at the same time.
Because whatever it is, it turned to be, rather than fiction, exactly what it looked like it might be. You can't bring yourself to ever give anyone credit, can you? Even though you are early and often pointing fingers when people get things wrong.
Once one gets to the point where words and disclosures mean nothing, anyone can do anything they want, and everything is a nothing burger. I'm just not there yet.
346
I see nothing here that makes the scenario of an aggressive buyer (most likely a dealer) simply using a monitoring bot to alert them to the new inventory and being ready to make a large purchase without requiring any coordination or collusion with the mint. You assign ill motives because you have an axe to grind and that clouds your perspective. I think you forget that the mint could care less if they sell them all in 1 hour or a few months. They are not a retail operation worrying about optimizing cash usage and cash flow. While there is no doubt that they prefer to offer a product and be "done with it" in a reasonable amount of time as anyone would, mint management is perfectly happy if a coin sells out over the period of a few months. Other than illegal kickbacks, there is simply no incentive for them to conspire.
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