You have to hand it to the mint, they are the only organization that could screw this up. This is why the early graders got the worms, and the ones left now are the rejects.
The numbers don't add up for this being a second run, they sold all possible inventory already. This has to be secondary returns that the mint allowed.
I have no problem with a Big Boy taking a shot, and having a return privilege if the Mint wants to allow that. My issue was with the Mint cutting off orders on release day prematurely when they looked like big winners, lifting the HHL the next day with pretty much nothing to sell, not taking Back Orders, with or without a HHL, and then making the remainder of the maximum mintage letting someone grab 17% of the total mintage with no notice or warning to the public.
Letting that person have a free shot at a lucrative flip, have the flip not pan out, and then, but only then, letting the masses have another crack, with a HHL no less, at sloppy seconds dealers no longer want.
Apologists here can say and think whatever they want. This stinks.
It stinks for everyone who paid an inflated price in the secondary market. For everyone who bought thinking it would be a short strike, because it sure looked like one for a few weeks there, after the head fakes the Mint pulled last year when they actually short struck the FH coin and medal.
And for everyone who naively thought the Mint actually had any interest in acting ethically in distributing these products. They can absolutely do whatever they want. They are a government agency dealing with the public.
Contrary to what some here might think, though, they do owe us honestly and transparency. Not using us to direct excess profits to select big customers. And then later dumping unwanted inventory on us, after it turns out not to be so hot after all.
These might or might not sell out from here. Either way, this is going to leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, which might serve to depress demand for future limited mintage expensive releases.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
It appears you can only buy 1 in a single purchase. Not HHL of one.
Not even sure why they are going through the charade any longer. Other than maybe to create the appearance that they are difficult to obtain in order to stoke demand.
Because they will clearly sell 2K at once if you are the right buyer. And take them all back if things don't work out for you.
@HalfDime said:
So are we to presume that these 2100 coins are returns and not fresh coins?
No. They are "fresh" because they were apparently sold to a single large buyer who found no takers when they tried to wholesale them, and they had no plan to even try to sell them to the public. So they are not 2100 coins that were picked over by someone and returned because they won't grade 70.
Even so, I'd boycott them on principle at this point. You are only getting an opportunity to buy them because neither @wondercoin, nor anyone on the dealer network he reported about, wanted them.
Not because they Mint gave you the crack at them during the first 24 hours after release that is their policy, and that was promised in their press release. Everyone involved in this should choke on them now. But yeah, if you are still interested, they are as "fresh" as anything else you buy from the Mint.
Maybe those 2K coins will be coming back after all. If they do, it should be clear to everyone how the deck is stacked in favor of the Big Boys. And against the rest of us.
Well that didn't age well.
@HalfDime said:
So are we to presume that these 2100 coins are returns and not fresh coins?
There's no way they had this volume of returns. Clearly there was a second run.
What didn't age well? It's exactly what I speculated it might be.
You said "it was stacked in favor of the Big Boys." Don't you think releasing 2k coins at HHL=1 is the opposite of that? How many "Big Boys" are looking to buy 1 more?
No second run. The second run was the additional 4K a few weeks ago, 2800 of which were available on the web and sold out in 15 minutes.
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
Oh, do you have a press release to reference? I don't recall seeing any. Speculation, not facts.
@NJCoin said:
It stinks for everyone who paid an inflated price in the secondary market. For everyone who bought thinking it would be a short strike, because it sure looked like one for a few weeks there, after the head fakes the Mint pulled last year when they actually short struck the FH coin and medal.
It's called making an assumption and losing, like you often do.
All mint products should be purchased with the assumption that the full limit will be produced but knowing there's a possibility that they might not make them all. A person with that mindset will never be wrong or disappointed.
And for everyone who naively thought the Mint actually had any interest in acting ethically in distributing these products. They can absolutely do whatever they want. They are a government agency dealing with the public.
And anyone in the public had a chance to buy one on the first day and again today. That is a win for the public.
Contrary to what some here might think, though, they do owe us honestly and transparency. Not using us to direct excess profits to select big customers. And then later dumping unwanted inventory on us, after it turns out not to be so hot after all.
It was transparent. They said they'd make 12k and they did.
These might or might not sell out from here. Either way, this is going to leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, which might serve to depress demand for future limited mintage expensive releases.
They will sell out. Many mint products take months or years to sell but they pretty much all eventually do. The mint is in no hurry, I'm not sure why you or anyone else is so caught up in how long it takes them.
Maybe those 2K coins will be coming back after all. If they do, it should be clear to everyone how the deck is stacked in favor of the Big Boys. And against the rest of us.
Well that didn't age well.
@HalfDime said:
So are we to presume that these 2100 coins are returns and not fresh coins?
There's no way they had this volume of returns. Clearly there was a second run.
What didn't age well? It's exactly what I speculated it might be.
You said "it was stacked in favor of the Big Boys." Don't you think releasing 2k coins at HHL=1 is the opposite of that? How many "Big Boys" are looking to buy 1 more?
No second run. The second run was the additional 4K a few weeks ago, 2800 of which were available on the web and sold out in 15 minutes.
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
Oh, do you have a press release to reference? I don't recall seeing any. Speculation, not facts.
Interesting. This might be available for awhile with an HHL and price point at $4,665.
If these are up for a few hours, I wonder if the email and text alert notifications will kick in.
This would be the perfect time for them to notify the waitlist folks. I have not received anything in my emails from the mint yet even though it's still available right now
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@HalfDime said:
So are we to presume that these 2100 coins are returns and not fresh coins?
No. They are "fresh" because they were apparently sold to a single large buyer who found no takers when they tried to wholesale them, and they had no plan to even try to sell them to the public. So they are not 2100 coins that were picked over by someone and returned because they won't grade 70.
The US Mint should not be selling returns as new, when these are obviously returns. People that had flawed coins held them earlier because they feared not getting a replacement. Now we have a flood of "new" coins that are essentially rejects, coming in to be sold at a HHL of 1, which they never should have lifted earlier.
Anyway, the mint is a casino and the casino lost on this roll of the roulette wheel. Then they remove the roulette wheel for everyone else to spin.
The whole release was stacked in favor of the dealers. They only re-added HHL after this bulk sale fell through. I wouldn’t say that’s a win for the public as the public was an afterthought.
I don’t know about the rest of you but I am really starting to look forward to the mint’s 2026 shenanigans with the 5 “Best of the Mint” semiquincentennial gold coins and silver medals. Can they top this?
@zeesh said:
The whole release was stacked in favor of the dealers. They only re-added HHL after this bulk sale fell through. I wouldn’t say that’s a win for the public as the public was an afterthought.
Not merely an afterthought. A dumping ground for unwanted dealer inventory. Because the bulk sale never should have happened in the first place, since the coins were not made available to the public during the promised initial 24 hour ordering window.
In hindsight, the Mint intentionally cutoff sales early on Day One after 3.5 hours and only 2/3 of the maximum mintage spoken for. And that's after previously distributing 17% of the mintage, and 25% of the mintage initially made available, to ABPP. In order to make sure there would be coins left to sell to a large buyer later with no HHL.
They then lifted the HHL, again in hindsight, specifically to be able to direct these 2100 coins to a single buyer. Theoretically made available to the public, but only during a random, unadvertised, 15 minute selling window. And only to the extent there was anything left after the 2100, plus the 1200 that never made it to ATS, were spoken for.
Then, when things didn't work out for the mystery buyer, and the mystery buyer wasn't able to salvage their deal by securing other mystery buyers to take the coins off their hands, they were returned to Mint inventory, with a restored HHL of 1. And the public has now once again been given the honor of being allowed to take them off the Mint's hands.
Great way to run an enterprise supposedly serving the public, not special dealer interests. This stuff probably goes on all the time behind the scenes. This time, due to a comedy of errors, our deciphering of the ATS code that is surely not meant for our eyes, people noticing that the coins were available for a brief period of time with no HHL, and then @wondercoin's generous sharing of information, it was exposed to us here.
A TERRIBLE look for the Mint. I am seriously reconsidering doing business with them in the future, given how clear it is now that my role in this drama is just to create value for others. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. Other than, maybe, by accident.
And make the household limit two, I think everyone who wanted one was able to get it. Some people want two or have multiple people in household who would like one.
Maybe those 2K coins will be coming back after all. If they do, it should be clear to everyone how the deck is stacked in favor of the Big Boys. And against the rest of us.
Well that didn't age well.
@HalfDime said:
So are we to presume that these 2100 coins are returns and not fresh coins?
There's no way they had this volume of returns. Clearly there was a second run.
What didn't age well? It's exactly what I speculated it might be.
You said "it was stacked in favor of the Big Boys." Don't you think releasing 2k coins at HHL=1 is the opposite of that? How many "Big Boys" are looking to buy 1 more?
No second run. The second run was the additional 4K a few weeks ago, 2800 of which were available on the web and sold out in 15 minutes.
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
Oh, do you have a press release to reference? I don't recall seeing any. Speculation, not facts.
There's nothing in this PR that backs up your quote:
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
Maybe those 2K coins will be coming back after all. If they do, it should be clear to everyone how the deck is stacked in favor of the Big Boys. And against the rest of us.
Well that didn't age well.
@HalfDime said:
So are we to presume that these 2100 coins are returns and not fresh coins?
There's no way they had this volume of returns. Clearly there was a second run.
What didn't age well? It's exactly what I speculated it might be.
You said "it was stacked in favor of the Big Boys." Don't you think releasing 2k coins at HHL=1 is the opposite of that? How many "Big Boys" are looking to buy 1 more?
No second run. The second run was the additional 4K a few weeks ago, 2800 of which were available on the web and sold out in 15 minutes.
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
Oh, do you have a press release to reference? I don't recall seeing any. Speculation, not facts.
There's nothing in this PR that backs up your quote:
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
@ProofCollection — where are you saying the 2,000 today came from?
But- NJCoin still has not properly theorized/ figured out why I said PCGS would not likely be able to grade the 10-20 coin lot that the board member thought about buying last week from the 2,000 coin lot. Colombo might have already figured that one out! lol. One day, I may tell NJCoin the answer to that one if I still pass on the request to write the “tell all” book on US Modern coins! 😉
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Maybe those 2K coins will be coming back after all. If they do, it should be clear to everyone how the deck is stacked in favor of the Big Boys. And against the rest of us.
Well that didn't age well.
@HalfDime said:
So are we to presume that these 2100 coins are returns and not fresh coins?
There's no way they had this volume of returns. Clearly there was a second run.
What didn't age well? It's exactly what I speculated it might be.
You said "it was stacked in favor of the Big Boys." Don't you think releasing 2k coins at HHL=1 is the opposite of that? How many "Big Boys" are looking to buy 1 more?
No second run. The second run was the additional 4K a few weeks ago, 2800 of which were available on the web and sold out in 15 minutes.
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
Oh, do you have a press release to reference? I don't recall seeing any. Speculation, not facts.
There's nothing in this PR that backs up your quote:
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
No, the PR only talks about the 12K mintage being made available for the first 24 hours with a HHL of 1. That didn't happen.
The rest was fully disclosed right here. Sorry you weren't paying attention. Go back and read the entire thread.
Maybe those 2K coins will be coming back after all. If they do, it should be clear to everyone how the deck is stacked in favor of the Big Boys. And against the rest of us.
Well that didn't age well.
@HalfDime said:
So are we to presume that these 2100 coins are returns and not fresh coins?
There's no way they had this volume of returns. Clearly there was a second run.
What didn't age well? It's exactly what I speculated it might be.
You said "it was stacked in favor of the Big Boys." Don't you think releasing 2k coins at HHL=1 is the opposite of that? How many "Big Boys" are looking to buy 1 more?
No second run. The second run was the additional 4K a few weeks ago, 2800 of which were available on the web and sold out in 15 minutes.
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
Oh, do you have a press release to reference? I don't recall seeing any. Speculation, not facts.
There's nothing in this PR that backs up your quote:
2K of them went to one buyer who couldn't unload them, as disclosed by @wondercoin last weekend. They clearly went back to the Mint. The heads-up that it was coming was the reimposition of the HHL earlier this week.
Not speculation any longer. Not bad fiction either. Facts.
@ProofCollection — where are you saying the 2,000 today came from?
I don't know, which is why I'm not making any statements of fact.
@RAWcoin said:
I don’t know about the rest of you but I am really starting to look forward to the mint’s 2026 shenanigans with the 5 “Best of the Mint” semiquincentennial gold coins and silver medals. Can they top this?
No. This is it.
This, plus what they did last year with the FH gold, silver, and silver privies. We are all on notice -- their press releases are great. Whatever they tell Coin World is great.
But they'll do whatever they want. Period. And we'll get what we get. And either like it or pound sand. Message received. Loud and clear.
@wondercoin said:
But- NJCoin still has not properly theorized/ figured out why I said PCGS would not likely be able to grade the 10-20 coin lot that the board member thought about buying last week from the 2,000 coin lot. Colombo might have already figured that one out! lol. One day, I may tell NJCoin the answer to that one if I still pass on the request to write the “tell all” book on US Modern coins! 😉
Wondercoin
To be honest, until now I hadn't even thought about it, because I didn't catch on to the fact that they would be a subset of a bulk purchase. Maybe without retail packaging.
So what? If the coins are genuine, I'm sure they'd take anyone's money and grade anything. In any event, I'm not losing any sleep wondering about that.
And, all kidding aside, thank you VERY much for sharing this with us. Did you anticipate this firestorm, or were you just beating the bush trying to help out your friend?
Do you, as a large dealer, have an opinion on the Mint playing games with retail distribution, contrary to what they publicly announce? Or do you think anything goes, as long as it benefits their largest and best customers?
Because, when prices decline, none of you guys accept returns from the public. Do you think this is okay, just because your friend didn't get hurt?
People were denied an opportunity to buy on Day One, when the coins were hot, because 4K were apparently set aside for distribution after the HHL was lifted. Half of that 4K went to one buyer, with a free option to return if they couldn't make money on the transaction.
They couldn't make money on the deal, so they come back, after probably the entire dealer community passed on them, and the Mint is acting like it's August 21st all over again. Come and get 'em -- HHL of 1. On the taxpayer's dime, assuming they don't sell out. Nice game if one is allowed to play under those rules.
Any idea why they are going through the charade now, after a month, and weeks after they sold them in bulk, to reimpose a HHL? Is it really just to create the illusion of scarcity? Or do they not want to sell them, assuming someone stumbles across the website and wants to buy quantity?
@NJCoin said:
This stuff probably goes on all the time behind the scenes. This time, due to a comedy of errors, our deciphering of the ATS code that is surely not meant for our eyes, people noticing that the coins were available for a brief period of time with no HHL, and then @wondercoin's generous sharing of information, it was exposed to us here.
This coin is like the easiest coin to sell of almost all of them. The most beautiful, a low mintage, a easy HHl of 1. And yet they screwed even that up. Apparently the mint doesn't understand that buyers show up on day 1 and expect to buy, until it sells out of the whole mintage. Once the inventory dried up, buyers move on. Even right now there are 1753 coins left because the mint doesn't notify potential buyers.
However the coin will sell out and this will be swept under the rug until the next release. It is almost like the mint enjoys doing it this way.
@RAWcoin said:
I don’t know about the rest of you but I am really starting to look forward to the mint’s 2026 shenanigans with the 5 “Best of the Mint” semiquincentennial gold coins and silver medals. Can they top this?
Next year should be spectacular with the HHL going from 1 to unlimited back to 1 for the most popular coins. Spin the roulette wheel.
@NJCoin said:
This stuff probably goes on all the time behind the scenes. This time, due to a comedy of errors, our deciphering of the ATS code that is surely not meant for our eyes, people noticing that the coins were available for a brief period of time with no HHL, and then @wondercoin's generous sharing of information, it was exposed to us here.
This coin is like the easiest coin to sell of almost all of them. The most beautiful, a low mintage, a easy HHl of 1. And yet they screwed even that up. Apparently the mint doesn't understand that buyers show up on day 1 and expect to buy, until it sells out of the whole mintage. Once the inventory dried up, buyers move on. Even right now there are 1753 coins left because the mint doesn't notify potential buyers.
However the coin will sell out and this will be swept under the rug until the next release. It is almost like the mint enjoys doing it this way.
@NJCoin said:
This stuff probably goes on all the time behind the scenes. This time, due to a comedy of errors, our deciphering of the ATS code that is surely not meant for our eyes, people noticing that the coins were available for a brief period of time with no HHL, and then @wondercoin's generous sharing of information, it was exposed to us here.
This coin is like the easiest coin to sell of almost all of them. The most beautiful, a low mintage, a easy HHl of 1. And yet they screwed even that up. Apparently the mint doesn't understand that buyers show up on day 1 and expect to buy, until it sells out of the whole mintage. Once the inventory dried up, buyers move on. Even right now there are 1753 coins left because the mint doesn't notify potential buyers.
However the coin will sell out and this will be swept under the rug until the next release. It is almost like the mint enjoys doing it this way.
Nah. I'm obviously hyper-pissed about this, but I am not nearly as skeptical as you when it comes to motives.
They are not doing it to mess with us. They are just doing it to take care of their best customers. Seemingly, outside the boundaries of the parameters they set and publish.
As others have correctly said, they CAN literally do whatever they want. I just want fair, honest and full disclosure. Some here say I am not even entitled to that.
If that's the case, then at some point the Golden Goose will get tired of being taunted and abused, and will die. And then this game will be over for everyone.
No one who bought at an inflated price from a dealer in the past month expected 2K returns to be placed back on sale by the Mint on September 26th. If that was disclosed, many retail sales would not have taken place.
If the coins were made available for sale on August 21st, as the Mint announced they would be, they very likely would have sold out then, and everything would be fine. But no. They were held back from the public in order to allow a bulk buyer to buy them in the future. With a free option to return if things didn't work out.
Small dealers and the public pay their money and take their chances. Big dealers get risk free deals on hot items. Most of the time they make money, and, when they don't, they still don't lose. We do. Heads they win, tails we lose.
When there's a change for this, It would be fair if they reset the HHL penalty accumulated back to 0 for any ones bought before September 26, 2025.
Then everyone gets a chance for one lightly used retread at higher price. That's better than removing any HHL,
which means gone in an extremely short time, or instantly by some classes of folks.
“And, all kidding aside, thank you VERY much for sharing this with us. Did you anticipate this firestorm, or were you just beating the bush trying to help out your friend?”
Once again, and I say it this time (hopefully) for the last time, I had/have no horse in the race. I have no “friend” here in this matter. I don’t believe I have ever done $1 in business with the subject dealer and I don’t even see a communication with the dealer ever in writing or verbally. I simply shared some information I thought might be interesting to some of my fellow board members here.
Cheers.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@NJCoin said:
If that's the case, then at some point the Golden Goose will get tired of being taunted and abused, and will die. And then this game will be over for everyone.
I have some bad news then, according to AI the us mint collector coin revenues have been increasing, and not decreasing. They are probably patting each other on the back for the good job they believe they are doing.
"US Mint collector (numismatic) revenues have been experiencing a rebound since a dip in 2022–2023, but are still not at the peaks seen in previous years. For the current fiscal years, numismatic revenues were $448.6 million in 2022, $339.6 million in 2023, with a projected increase to $529.0 million in 2025 according to official Treasury documents. This represents a recent upward trend, following a notable decrease from a high of $577.4 million in 2021."
As long as revenues go up, they are likely satisfied. Next year should see record high revenues if they have a clue based on the 250th anniversary sales. And the mint is a monopoly and can do as it pleases, even if that means screwing up sales repeatedly.
@NJCoin said:
If that's the case, then at some point the Golden Goose will get tired of being taunted and abused, and will die. And then this game will be over for everyone.
I have some bad news then, according to AI the us mint collector coin revenues have been increasing, and not decreasing. They are probably patting each other on the back for the good job they believe they are doing.
"US Mint collector (numismatic) revenues have been experiencing a rebound since a dip in 2022–2023, but are still not at the peaks seen in previous years. For the current fiscal years, numismatic revenues were $448.6 million in 2022, $339.6 million in 2023, with a projected increase to $529.0 million in 2025 according to official Treasury documents. This represents a recent upward trend, following a notable decrease from a high of $577.4 million in 2021."
As long as revenues go up, they are likely satisfied. Next year should see record high revenues if they have a clue based on the 250th anniversary sales. And the mint is a monopoly and can do as it pleases, even if that means screwing up sales repeatedly.
The REMIND ME button from the mint's website isn't really connected to anything, is it? I've signed up for reminders many times and don't remember getting any notifications. Apparently, I'm not the only one.
@Onastone said:
The REMIND ME button from the mint's website isn't really connected to anything, is it? I've signed up for reminders many times and don't remember getting any notifications. Apparently, I'm not the only one.
Not unless the US Mint mails you a self adhesive sticker to place on the forehead !!
I've gotten notifications for other products so I'm not sure why they aren't sending one out this time. Perhaps they are holding off to see how quickly this batch sells and then send it? I have a feeling if and when it does go out, the coin will sell out shortly afterward. I saw one go for as little as $4,800 on eBay so maybe this release isn't a home run as others have stated here. One thing is for certain, if I order one the price of gold will absolutely plummet.
Comments
You have to hand it to the mint, they are the only organization that could screw this up. This is why the early graders got the worms, and the ones left now are the rejects.
The numbers don't add up for this being a second run, they sold all possible inventory already. This has to be secondary returns that the mint allowed.
Pretty much. Heads they win, tails we lose.
I have no problem with a Big Boy taking a shot, and having a return privilege if the Mint wants to allow that. My issue was with the Mint cutting off orders on release day prematurely when they looked like big winners, lifting the HHL the next day with pretty much nothing to sell, not taking Back Orders, with or without a HHL, and then making the remainder of the maximum mintage letting someone grab 17% of the total mintage with no notice or warning to the public.
Letting that person have a free shot at a lucrative flip, have the flip not pan out, and then, but only then, letting the masses have another crack, with a HHL no less, at sloppy seconds dealers no longer want.
Apologists here can say and think whatever they want. This stinks.
It stinks for everyone who paid an inflated price in the secondary market. For everyone who bought thinking it would be a short strike, because it sure looked like one for a few weeks there, after the head fakes the Mint pulled last year when they actually short struck the FH coin and medal.
And for everyone who naively thought the Mint actually had any interest in acting ethically in distributing these products. They can absolutely do whatever they want. They are a government agency dealing with the public.
Contrary to what some here might think, though, they do owe us honestly and transparency. Not using us to direct excess profits to select big customers. And then later dumping unwanted inventory on us, after it turns out not to be so hot after all.
These might or might not sell out from here. Either way, this is going to leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, which might serve to depress demand for future limited mintage expensive releases.
Not even sure why they are going through the charade any longer. Other than maybe to create the appearance that they are difficult to obtain in order to stoke demand.
Because they will clearly sell 2K at once if you are the right buyer. And take them all back if things don't work out for you.
No. They are "fresh" because they were apparently sold to a single large buyer who found no takers when they tried to wholesale them, and they had no plan to even try to sell them to the public. So they are not 2100 coins that were picked over by someone and returned because they won't grade 70.
Even so, I'd boycott them on principle at this point. You are only getting an opportunity to buy them because neither @wondercoin, nor anyone on the dealer network he reported about, wanted them.
Not because they Mint gave you the crack at them during the first 24 hours after release that is their policy, and that was promised in their press release. Everyone involved in this should choke on them now. But yeah, if you are still interested, they are as "fresh" as anything else you buy from the Mint.
You said "it was stacked in favor of the Big Boys." Don't you think releasing 2k coins at HHL=1 is the opposite of that? How many "Big Boys" are looking to buy 1 more?
Oh, do you have a press release to reference? I don't recall seeing any. Speculation, not facts.
http://ProofCollection.Net
It's called making an assumption and losing, like you often do.
All mint products should be purchased with the assumption that the full limit will be produced but knowing there's a possibility that they might not make them all. A person with that mindset will never be wrong or disappointed.
And anyone in the public had a chance to buy one on the first day and again today. That is a win for the public.
It was transparent. They said they'd make 12k and they did.
They will sell out. Many mint products take months or years to sell but they pretty much all eventually do. The mint is in no hurry, I'm not sure why you or anyone else is so caught up in how long it takes them.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I never received a reminder about the availability of these coins despite signing up for notifications.
@ProofCollection said:
No dice here. HHL didn't reset today but is in effect from Day 1. Oh well...
It will probably come much later this afternoon, after the household limit is removed in about 5 minutes.
available today.
household limit is still 1. I'd really like to get another one because my first one had a dented reed
https://www.usmint.gov/news/press-releases/2025-american-liberty-high-relief-gold-coin-and-2025-american-liberty-silver-medal-available-on-august-21
be> @jskillz95 said:
This would be the perfect time for them to notify the waitlist folks. I have not received anything in my emails from the mint yet even though it's still available right now
jdimmick;Gerard;wondercoin;claychaser;agentjim007;CCC2010;guitarwes;TAMU15;Zubie;mariner67;segoja;Smittys;kaz;CARDSANDCOINS;FadeToBlack;
jrt103;tizofthe;bronze6827;mkman;Scootersdad;AllCoinsRule;coindeuce;dmarks;piecesofme; and many more
The US Mint should not be selling returns as new, when these are obviously returns. People that had flawed coins held them earlier because they feared not getting a replacement. Now we have a flood of "new" coins that are essentially rejects, coming in to be sold at a HHL of 1, which they never should have lifted earlier.
Anyway, the mint is a casino and the casino lost on this roll of the roulette wheel. Then they remove the roulette wheel for everyone else to spin.
2004
The whole release was stacked in favor of the dealers. They only re-added HHL after this bulk sale fell through. I wouldn’t say that’s a win for the public as the public was an afterthought.
I don’t know about the rest of you but I am really starting to look forward to the mint’s 2026 shenanigans with the 5 “Best of the Mint” semiquincentennial gold coins and silver medals. Can they top this?
Not merely an afterthought. A dumping ground for unwanted dealer inventory. Because the bulk sale never should have happened in the first place, since the coins were not made available to the public during the promised initial 24 hour ordering window.
In hindsight, the Mint intentionally cutoff sales early on Day One after 3.5 hours and only 2/3 of the maximum mintage spoken for. And that's after previously distributing 17% of the mintage, and 25% of the mintage initially made available, to ABPP. In order to make sure there would be coins left to sell to a large buyer later with no HHL.
They then lifted the HHL, again in hindsight, specifically to be able to direct these 2100 coins to a single buyer. Theoretically made available to the public, but only during a random, unadvertised, 15 minute selling window. And only to the extent there was anything left after the 2100, plus the 1200 that never made it to ATS, were spoken for.
Then, when things didn't work out for the mystery buyer, and the mystery buyer wasn't able to salvage their deal by securing other mystery buyers to take the coins off their hands, they were returned to Mint inventory, with a restored HHL of 1. And the public has now once again been given the honor of being allowed to take them off the Mint's hands.
Great way to run an enterprise supposedly serving the public, not special dealer interests. This stuff probably goes on all the time behind the scenes. This time, due to a comedy of errors, our deciphering of the ATS code that is surely not meant for our eyes, people noticing that the coins were available for a brief period of time with no HHL, and then @wondercoin's generous sharing of information, it was exposed to us here.
A TERRIBLE look for the Mint. I am seriously reconsidering doing business with them in the future, given how clear it is now that my role in this drama is just to create value for others. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. Other than, maybe, by accident.
Can someone chime in with if the 2000 coins available from the dealer are still available?
And make the household limit two, I think everyone who wanted one was able to get it. Some people want two or have multiple people in household who would like one.
They are such idiots
There's nothing in this PR that backs up your quote:
http://ProofCollection.Net
@ProofCollection — where are you saying the 2,000 today came from?
At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised if the final mintage is 14,100 lol
But- NJCoin still has not properly theorized/ figured out why I said PCGS would not likely be able to grade the 10-20 coin lot that the board member thought about buying last week from the 2,000 coin lot. Colombo might have already figured that one out! lol. One day, I may tell NJCoin the answer to that one if I still pass on the request to write the “tell all” book on US Modern coins! 😉
Wondercoin
No, the PR only talks about the 12K mintage being made available for the first 24 hours with a HHL of 1. That didn't happen.
The rest was fully disclosed right here. Sorry you weren't paying attention. Go back and read the entire thread.
I don't know, which is why I'm not making any statements of fact.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Only @wondercoin would know that. But, of course they are not, because the last Mint sales report showed 11,972 sold.
The maximum mintage is 12K. The 2100 came from somewhere. Connect the dots. Those 2K coins are on ATS right now.
No. This is it.
This, plus what they did last year with the FH gold, silver, and silver privies. We are all on notice -- their press releases are great. Whatever they tell Coin World is great.
But they'll do whatever they want. Period. And we'll get what we get. And either like it or pound sand. Message received. Loud and clear.
To be honest, until now I hadn't even thought about it, because I didn't catch on to the fact that they would be a subset of a bulk purchase. Maybe without retail packaging.
So what? If the coins are genuine, I'm sure they'd take anyone's money and grade anything. In any event, I'm not losing any sleep wondering about that.
And, all kidding aside, thank you VERY much for sharing this with us. Did you anticipate this firestorm, or were you just beating the bush trying to help out your friend?
Do you, as a large dealer, have an opinion on the Mint playing games with retail distribution, contrary to what they publicly announce? Or do you think anything goes, as long as it benefits their largest and best customers?
Because, when prices decline, none of you guys accept returns from the public. Do you think this is okay, just because your friend didn't get hurt?
People were denied an opportunity to buy on Day One, when the coins were hot, because 4K were apparently set aside for distribution after the HHL was lifted. Half of that 4K went to one buyer, with a free option to return if they couldn't make money on the transaction.
They couldn't make money on the deal, so they come back, after probably the entire dealer community passed on them, and the Mint is acting like it's August 21st all over again. Come and get 'em -- HHL of 1. On the taxpayer's dime, assuming they don't sell out. Nice game if one is allowed to play under those rules.
Any idea why they are going through the charade now, after a month, and weeks after they sold them in bulk, to reimpose a HHL? Is it really just to create the illusion of scarcity? Or do they not want to sell them, assuming someone stumbles across the website and wants to buy quantity?
This coin is like the easiest coin to sell of almost all of them. The most beautiful, a low mintage, a easy HHl of 1. And yet they screwed even that up. Apparently the mint doesn't understand that buyers show up on day 1 and expect to buy, until it sells out of the whole mintage. Once the inventory dried up, buyers move on. Even right now there are 1753 coins left because the mint doesn't notify potential buyers.
However the coin will sell out and this will be swept under the rug until the next release. It is almost like the mint enjoys doing it this way.
Next year should be spectacular with the HHL going from 1 to unlimited back to 1 for the most popular coins. Spin the roulette wheel.
I actually don’t like this coin. I really wish I did but I just don’t like the design. I reckon I’m not the only one. I would gladly buy it if I did.
Nah. I'm obviously hyper-pissed about this, but I am not nearly as skeptical as you when it comes to motives.
They are not doing it to mess with us. They are just doing it to take care of their best customers. Seemingly, outside the boundaries of the parameters they set and publish.
As others have correctly said, they CAN literally do whatever they want. I just want fair, honest and full disclosure. Some here say I am not even entitled to that.
If that's the case, then at some point the Golden Goose will get tired of being taunted and abused, and will die. And then this game will be over for everyone.
No one who bought at an inflated price from a dealer in the past month expected 2K returns to be placed back on sale by the Mint on September 26th. If that was disclosed, many retail sales would not have taken place.
If the coins were made available for sale on August 21st, as the Mint announced they would be, they very likely would have sold out then, and everything would be fine. But no. They were held back from the public in order to allow a bulk buyer to buy them in the future. With a free option to return if things didn't work out.
Small dealers and the public pay their money and take their chances. Big dealers get risk free deals on hot items. Most of the time they make money, and, when they don't, they still don't lose. We do. Heads they win, tails we lose.
I, for one, can attest that I received no text or email heads up. I was signed up.
there is short struck. there must be long struck!
When there's a change for this, It would be fair if they reset the HHL penalty accumulated back to 0 for any ones bought before September 26, 2025.
Then everyone gets a chance for one lightly used retread at higher price. That's better than removing any HHL,
which means gone in an extremely short time, or instantly by some classes of folks.
“And, all kidding aside, thank you VERY much for sharing this with us. Did you anticipate this firestorm, or were you just beating the bush trying to help out your friend?”
Once again, and I say it this time (hopefully) for the last time, I had/have no horse in the race. I have no “friend” here in this matter. I don’t believe I have ever done $1 in business with the subject dealer and I don’t even see a communication with the dealer ever in writing or verbally. I simply shared some information I thought might be interesting to some of my fellow board members here.
Cheers.
Wondercoin
I have some bad news then, according to AI the us mint collector coin revenues have been increasing, and not decreasing. They are probably patting each other on the back for the good job they believe they are doing.
"US Mint collector (numismatic) revenues have been experiencing a rebound since a dip in 2022–2023, but are still not at the peaks seen in previous years. For the current fiscal years, numismatic revenues were $448.6 million in 2022, $339.6 million in 2023, with a projected increase to $529.0 million in 2025 according to official Treasury documents. This represents a recent upward trend, following a notable decrease from a high of $577.4 million in 2021."
As long as revenues go up, they are likely satisfied. Next year should see record high revenues if they have a clue based on the 250th anniversary sales. And the mint is a monopoly and can do as it pleases, even if that means screwing up sales repeatedly.
don't use ai. use the mint' annual reports
Gross or net?
You could just pull up the annual report
https://www.usmint.gov/content/dam/usmint/reports/2024-annual-report.pdf?srsltid=AfmBOopqtHfa9xSV8sIitzYGo2wKwPBVwndmaIQ7GuQu-P-bDWyphL9s
You'll note that net income is dropping
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
AI uses the Mint's annual report.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The REMIND ME button from the mint's website isn't really connected to anything, is it? I've signed up for reminders many times and don't remember getting any notifications. Apparently, I'm not the only one.
Not unless the US Mint mails you a self adhesive sticker to place on the forehead !!
I've gotten notifications for other products so I'm not sure why they aren't sending one out this time. Perhaps they are holding off to see how quickly this batch sells and then send it? I have a feeling if and when it does go out, the coin will sell out shortly afterward. I saw one go for as little as $4,800 on eBay so maybe this release isn't a home run as others have stated here. One thing is for certain, if I order one the price of gold will absolutely plummet.
1630
It's a good life, indeed !
ats 1591
Those rejects are sure selling slow now.