These were $4265 at first issue, and now are $4665, so they have gone up $400 thanks to the mint screwing up. The dealer who gave back the 2000 should have asked for an extra $400 per coin.
@HalfDime said:
These were $4265 at first issue, and now are $4665, so they have gone up $400 thanks to the mint screwing up. The dealer who gave back the 2000 should have asked for an extra $400 per coin.
Why do you think that these 2000 coins are dealer returns?
@HalfDime said:
These were $4265 at first issue, and now are $4665, so they have gone up $400 thanks to the mint screwing up. The dealer who gave back the 2000 should have asked for an extra $400 per coin.
The Mint didn't "screw up." This was an intentional screwing of the general public.
We are only seeing the coins now because it turns out the bulk buyer was unable to liquidate them as planned, and was given a risk free option to return them. At this point, people can take a pass if they don't want to be used like this.
If they are, instead, grateful to be allowed to buy now, at whatever price, it is what it is. And what it is is a green light for the Mint to continue doing things like this.
As far as the dealer goes, they clearly had ability to ask for an extra anything for anything. They tried to move them at a small discount to last week's lower Mint retail price, and had no takers among the dealers.
They are extremely lucky they were able to avoid a loss. Asking for an extra $400 per coin was never in the cards. If that was a possibility, they would never have been returned to the Mint in the first place. And people wouldn't be given the pleasure of being allowed to buy them now, one at a time, for $4665 each.
It's no small thing to move 2K units of anything selling for more than $4K each. Which is why people don't fully appreciate the risks and costs associated with what all the TV guys do day in and day out when they criticize their pricing. And why the Mint should NEVER have taken this quantity away from the general public, and placed it in the hands of a single large buyer, any single large buyer, in the first place.
The dealer had no choice but to bail, or risk taking a multi million dollar loss, depending on what happens to the price of gold, or these specifically, going forward. Plus they likely had financing costs associated with their purchase.
Unfortunately, we, the general public, can always be counted on to bail out large interests when schemes like this don't work out for them. Heads they win, tails we lose.
@NJCoin said:
They are extremely lucky they were able to avoid a loss. Asking for an extra $400 per coin was never in the cards. If that was a possibility, they would never have been returned to the Mint in the first place. And people wouldn't be given the pleasure of being allowed to buy them now, one at a time, for $4665 each.
The mint removed the HHL yesterday so anyone can buy all the rest of the coins. The mint was probably happy to take these back, making $800,000 on the deal once these sell out. As I said they think they are doing a wonderful job.
Someone mentioned the ship date for the second batch was September 26. so the restock of this 2000 coming back online lines up with the dealer having to cancel his order before taking shipment. He probably just canceled it and that’s what the mint did and nobody thought twice about it
so whats the verdict? buy the coin if you can afford it & hope that you can break even in the future? or stick it to the mint & not buy the coins? They don't seem to be flying off the shelf now that the HHL has been removed. It's a little shocking tbh.
@HalfDime said:
These were $4265 at first issue, and now are $4665, so they have gone up $400 thanks to the mint screwing up. The dealer who gave back the 2000 should have asked for an extra $400 per coin.
Why do you think that these 2000 coins are dealer returns?
There's a big assumption being made based on coincidences.
@HalfDime said:
These were $4265 at first issue, and now are $4665, so they have gone up $400 thanks to the mint screwing up. The dealer who gave back the 2000 should have asked for an extra $400 per coin.
Why do you think that these 2000 coins are dealer returns?
There's a big assumption being made based on coincidences.
Yes. Huge unfounded assumption. Coincidences.
I didn't call it, with good reason, a full week before it happened. I'm also going to go out on a limb and make a big assumption that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. If it happens, it won't be because the earth will have completed a rotation around the sun. It will be due to a coincidence. 🤣🤣🤣
Similarly, the white bird with the orange bill that won't stop quacking might, or might not, be a duck. One would need to make a big assumption absent a DNA test, birth records, and a sworn affidavit from its mother. 🤣🤣🤣
It's too bad that no one ever taught you to connect dots. You'll be a great pick a jury for any defendant ever accused of anything. Because conclusions with respect to all observed phenomena are really nothing more than a bunch of big assumptions based on a series of coincidences. Like this. 🤣🤣🤣
It could have been a nothing burger if the mint had taken orders for all 12k when they first put them up on the website, but it became a something burger when they only put up 8k and tinkered with the buyers for the other 4k.
@jmlanzaf said:
There was most likely a cancelation. That is not that uncommon not is it shocking or criminal.
We do not know who did it or when they purchased them. They did, after all sell several thousand in one day to several people in large lots.
It's a big nothing burger.
On September 12 I posted about what I had observed that morning.
I was checking the availability of the coin at 7:30 eastern and was continuously refreshing the page.
All of a sudden an ats of 2825 appeared (it very well could have been a higher number if I had refreshed sooner).
Then in about a minute the ats was under 800, and down to zero in another 15 minutes.
The Sept. 14 sales report showed 11,975 gone. Then 2100 appear on Sept. 26. Not uncommon?
Now that may be a big nothing burger to you, but that is definitely not my opinion.
I think the mint’s handling of this coin has been farcical.
@jmlanzaf said:
There was most likely a cancelation. That is not that uncommon not is it shocking or criminal.
We do not know who did it or when they purchased them. They did, after all sell several thousand in one day to several people in large lots.
It's a big nothing burger.
On September 12 I posted about what I had observed that morning.
I was checking the availability of the coin at 7:30 eastern and was continuously refreshing the page.
All of a sudden an ats of 2825 appeared (it very well could have been a higher number if I had refreshed sooner).
Then in about a minute the ats was under 800, and down to zero in another 15 minutes.
The Sept. 14 sales report showed 11,975 gone. Then 2100 appear on Sept. 26. Not uncommon?
Now that may be a big nothing burger to you, but that is definitely not my opinion.
I think the mint’s handling of this coin has been farcical.
In 2017, a major buyer canceled an order for 10,000 EU sets which created an avalanche of 60,000 returns.
This is not unique. It is not a giant conspiracy.
Nothing burger.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
It could have been a nothing burger if the mint had taken orders for all 12k when they first put them up on the website, but it became a something burger when they only put up 8k and tinkered with the buyers for the other 4k.
Allegedly tinkered. See my post about 2017. Big nothing burger. But feel free to feel outraged. With the HHL, how many could you or would you have bought?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
There's a big assumption being made based on coincidences.
What else would explain a mintage limit of 12,000 - sales of 11,972 thru Sept. 21 - then an ats of 2100 on Sept. 26?
The mint has always played games with inventory numbers and availability. Inventory numbers fluctuated wildly with Army privy ASE too. Why people here think they know what's going on or continue to be surprised by these actions baffles me.
BST references: jdimmick;Gerard;wondercoin;claychaser;agentjim007;CCC2010;guitarwes;TAMU15;Zubie;mariner67;segoja;Smittys;kaz;CARDSANDCOINS;FadeToBlack; jrt103;tizofthe;bronze6827;mkman;Scootersdad;AllCoinsRule;coindeuce;dmarks;piecesofme; and many more
@jmlanzaf said:
There was most likely a cancelation. That is not that uncommon not is it shocking or criminal.
We do not know who did it or when they purchased them. They did, after all sell several thousand in one day to several people in large lots.
It's a big nothing burger.
On September 12 I posted about what I had observed that morning.
I was checking the availability of the coin at 7:30 eastern and was continuously refreshing the page.
All of a sudden an ats of 2825 appeared (it very well could have been a higher number if I had refreshed sooner).
Then in about a minute the ats was under 800, and down to zero in another 15 minutes.
The Sept. 14 sales report showed 11,975 gone. Then 2100 appear on Sept. 26. Not uncommon?
Now that may be a big nothing burger to you, but that is definitely not my opinion.
I think the mint’s handling of this coin has been farcical.
In 2017, a major buyer canceled an order for 10,000 EU sets which created an avalanche of 60,000 returns.
This is not unique. It is not a giant conspiracy.
Nothing burger.
Now it's a "nothing burger." Before it actually manifested, it was:
@jmlanzaf said:
» show previous quotes
Again, you're totally creating a line that doesn't exist.
I like fiction, but only good fiction.
It could have been a nothing burger if the mint had taken orders for all 12k when they first put them up on the website, but it became a something burger when they only put up 8k and tinkered with the buyers for the other 4k.
Allegedly tinkered. See my post about 2017. Big nothing burger. But feel free to feel outraged. With the HHL, how many could you or would you have bought?
Not the point. Had the Mint not violated its policy, and actually done what it announced in its pre-release press release, the dealer in question would not have had a free shot to take the coins out of the hands of retail in order to try to flip 17% of the mintage for a profit. The coins would have been bought by retail, $400 cheaper, 5 weeks ago.
Not a "nothing burger." A conspiracy between someone at the Mint and a large buyer or buyers to violate published Mint policy. To the detriment of the public and for the benefit of larger dealers.
We only know about it because it didn't work out. Had there been dealer demand for these two weeks ago, those coins never would have gone unloved on that website, there would have been nothing "interesting" for @wondercoin to share with us, and we would have been none the wiser as to what really drove the Mint's failure to take Back Orders on August 21st, and the later unannounced drop of 4K with no HHL. Other than these 2100, we have no idea how many more of the additional 4K likely went out to other bulk buyers who were apparently not stuck with them, so we are not hearing about them.
As you noticed, when the 2100 coins came back, it was with a HHL of 1 for the first 24 hours, in a gracious attempt to put the toothpaste back in the tube after things didn't work out for the dealer. Great! No matter what you or anyone else say, other than the set aside for ABPP, all of the mintage, maximum, short strike, whatever, is supposed to be made available to the public, with whatever HHL they put in place, during whatever initial order period they establish.
In this case, 12K, HHL of 1, 24 hours. That did not happen here, with at least 2K going to a single bulk buyer before the public was given 24 hours to buy them, one at a time. You can be fine with it. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to be. Not a nothing burger. At least not to me.
The price of this coin is set to rise this week even from the elevated price it is now if it doesn't sell out. There are still 567 coins left which is surprising given golds move. It's probably going to rise to $4715 this week and then $4765 the following week if gold stays above $3800. This is according the pricing grid. Crazy.
@NJCoin said:
Not a "nothing burger." A conspiracy between someone at the Mint and a large buyer or buyers to violate published Mint policy. To the detriment of the public and for the benefit of larger dealers.
Would love to see your proof. In about 10 minutes or less I could setup a bot to monitor the inventory pages for any mint product I want and have it alert me the second inventory becomes available. How do you know they didn't just do that?
And what policy does the mint have against selling large quantities to one person/company if there is no HHL?
@NJCoin said:
Not a "nothing burger." A conspiracy between someone at the Mint and a large buyer or buyers to violate published Mint policy. To the detriment of the public and for the benefit of larger dealers.
Would love to see your proof. In about 10 minutes or less I could setup a bot to monitor the inventory pages for any mint product I want and have it alert me the second inventory becomes available. How do you know they didn't just do that?
And what policy does the mint have against selling large quantities to one person/company if there is no HHL?
I'm afraid you missed the entire point. I am not saying the dealer did anything wrong. Go back and read the thread if you want "proof" of what happened. Go back and read the Mint's press release regarding this very issue. You'll find the policy right there.
For the umpteenth time, the Mint absolutely CAN do anything it wants. Including terminating numismatic sales altogether, going to a wholesale only model like they do with bullion, anything.
What they can't do is say they are going to do one thing, and then do another. If they weren't a government agency, the FTC might very well be investigating them for consumer fraud over what they did here.
If the mint had limited orders to 100 per order, then that dealer could have done 20 orders at 100 and moved many of the orders, while canceling the rest.
a single order of 2000 coins at almost 4.5k each was a bridge too far.
@NJCoin said:
Not a "nothing burger." A conspiracy between someone at the Mint and a large buyer or buyers to violate published Mint policy. To the detriment of the public and for the benefit of larger dealers.
Would love to see your proof. In about 10 minutes or less I could setup a bot to monitor the inventory pages for any mint product I want and have it alert me the second inventory becomes available. How do you know they didn't just do that?
And what policy does the mint have against selling large quantities to one person/company if there is no HHL?
I'm afraid you missed the entire point. I am not saying the dealer did anything wrong. Go back and read the thread if you want "proof" of what happened. Go back and read the Mint's press release regarding this very issue. You'll find the policy right there.
For the umpteenth time, the Mint absolutely CAN do anything it wants. Including terminating numismatic sales altogether, going to a wholesale only model like they do with bullion, anything.
The entire point is that you allege (as a fact) that there was a conspiracy between a dealer and the mint. You have no proof of this. I posed a very possible scenario - the use of a bot to be notified when they were available and then purchased coins on the website. Why are you so sure that didn't happen?
What they can't do is say they are going to do one thing, and then do another. If they weren't a government agency, the FTC might very well be investigating them for consumer fraud over what they did here.
I don't see the issue. Large buyers regularly buy large quantities of mint products on the website. This isn't against any policy or published statement.
Comments
Unfortunately, these coins released by the Mint won't qualify for first strike, otherwise I would have bought more.
September is coming to a close with this gold coin priced at almost 5K .
These were $4265 at first issue, and now are $4665, so they have gone up $400 thanks to the mint screwing up. The dealer who gave back the 2000 should have asked for an extra $400 per coin.
Why do you think that these 2000 coins are dealer returns?
start here and search backwards for the wondercin posts
The Mint didn't "screw up." This was an intentional screwing of the general public.
We are only seeing the coins now because it turns out the bulk buyer was unable to liquidate them as planned, and was given a risk free option to return them. At this point, people can take a pass if they don't want to be used like this.
If they are, instead, grateful to be allowed to buy now, at whatever price, it is what it is. And what it is is a green light for the Mint to continue doing things like this.
As far as the dealer goes, they clearly had ability to ask for an extra anything for anything. They tried to move them at a small discount to last week's lower Mint retail price, and had no takers among the dealers.
They are extremely lucky they were able to avoid a loss. Asking for an extra $400 per coin was never in the cards. If that was a possibility, they would never have been returned to the Mint in the first place. And people wouldn't be given the pleasure of being allowed to buy them now, one at a time, for $4665 each.
It's no small thing to move 2K units of anything selling for more than $4K each. Which is why people don't fully appreciate the risks and costs associated with what all the TV guys do day in and day out when they criticize their pricing. And why the Mint should NEVER have taken this quantity away from the general public, and placed it in the hands of a single large buyer, any single large buyer, in the first place.
The dealer had no choice but to bail, or risk taking a multi million dollar loss, depending on what happens to the price of gold, or these specifically, going forward. Plus they likely had financing costs associated with their purchase.
Unfortunately, we, the general public, can always be counted on to bail out large interests when schemes like this don't work out for them. Heads they win, tails we lose.
The mint removed the HHL yesterday so anyone can buy all the rest of the coins. The mint was probably happy to take these back, making $800,000 on the deal once these sell out. As I said they think they are doing a wonderful job.
The mint will never change.
Someone mentioned the ship date for the second batch was September 26. so the restock of this 2000 coming back online lines up with the dealer having to cancel his order before taking shipment. He probably just canceled it and that’s what the mint did and nobody thought twice about it
it was just a rogue dealer.
ATS is 700. I think these will be gone by end of day today latest Monday.
Better get yours or they’ll be gone for real forever
Neither will he.
so whats the verdict? buy the coin if you can afford it & hope that you can break even in the future? or stick it to the mint & not buy the coins? They don't seem to be flying off the shelf now that the HHL has been removed. It's a little shocking tbh.
There's a big assumption being made based on coincidences.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Yes. Huge unfounded assumption. Coincidences.
I didn't call it, with good reason, a full week before it happened. I'm also going to go out on a limb and make a big assumption that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. If it happens, it won't be because the earth will have completed a rotation around the sun. It will be due to a coincidence. 🤣🤣🤣
Similarly, the white bird with the orange bill that won't stop quacking might, or might not, be a duck. One would need to make a big assumption absent a DNA test, birth records, and a sworn affidavit from its mother. 🤣🤣🤣
It's too bad that no one ever taught you to connect dots. You'll be a great pick a jury for any defendant ever accused of anything. Because conclusions with respect to all observed phenomena are really nothing more than a bunch of big assumptions based on a series of coincidences. Like this. 🤣🤣🤣
How many available now?
638
What else would explain a mintage limit of 12,000 - sales of 11,972 thru Sept. 21 - then an ats of 2100 on Sept. 26?
This is without a doubt my favorite post in this entire bizarre thread !!!
There was most likely a cancelation. That is not that uncommon not is it shocking or criminal.
We do not know who did it or when they purchased them. They did, after all sell several thousand in one day to several people in large lots.
It's a big nothing burger.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
It could have been a nothing burger if the mint had taken orders for all 12k when they first put them up on the website, but it became a something burger when they only put up 8k and tinkered with the buyers for the other 4k.
Just bought 2 more. They’ll be graded and held on to for a while.
On September 12 I posted about what I had observed that morning.
I was checking the availability of the coin at 7:30 eastern and was continuously refreshing the page.
All of a sudden an ats of 2825 appeared (it very well could have been a higher number if I had refreshed sooner).
Then in about a minute the ats was under 800, and down to zero in another 15 minutes.
The Sept. 14 sales report showed 11,975 gone. Then 2100 appear on Sept. 26. Not uncommon?
Now that may be a big nothing burger to you, but that is definitely not my opinion.
I think the mint’s handling of this coin has been farcical.
In 2017, a major buyer canceled an order for 10,000 EU sets which created an avalanche of 60,000 returns.
This is not unique. It is not a giant conspiracy.
Nothing burger.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Allegedly tinkered. See my post about 2017. Big nothing burger. But feel free to feel outraged. With the HHL, how many could you or would you have bought?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The mint has always played games with inventory numbers and availability. Inventory numbers fluctuated wildly with Army privy ASE too. Why people here think they know what's going on or continue to be surprised by these actions baffles me.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I saw the post on the dealer network when it came out and thought wow that is a lot of gold.
On the other hand my gold and silver went 70, I am happy.
Thank you for your no-nonsense, informative, down to Earth post.
What a breath of fresh air compared to the long-winded, speculative, and downright 'certifiable' posts as of late.
576
jdimmick;Gerard;wondercoin;claychaser;agentjim007;CCC2010;guitarwes;TAMU15;Zubie;mariner67;segoja;Smittys;kaz;CARDSANDCOINS;FadeToBlack;
jrt103;tizofthe;bronze6827;mkman;Scootersdad;AllCoinsRule;coindeuce;dmarks;piecesofme; and many more
Out of curiosity, is it still there?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Seriously, out of curiosity, what do you think?
Now it's a "nothing burger." Before it actually manifested, it was:
So, which is it?
Not the point. Had the Mint not violated its policy, and actually done what it announced in its pre-release press release, the dealer in question would not have had a free shot to take the coins out of the hands of retail in order to try to flip 17% of the mintage for a profit. The coins would have been bought by retail, $400 cheaper, 5 weeks ago.
Not a "nothing burger." A conspiracy between someone at the Mint and a large buyer or buyers to violate published Mint policy. To the detriment of the public and for the benefit of larger dealers.
We only know about it because it didn't work out. Had there been dealer demand for these two weeks ago, those coins never would have gone unloved on that website, there would have been nothing "interesting" for @wondercoin to share with us, and we would have been none the wiser as to what really drove the Mint's failure to take Back Orders on August 21st, and the later unannounced drop of 4K with no HHL. Other than these 2100, we have no idea how many more of the additional 4K likely went out to other bulk buyers who were apparently not stuck with them, so we are not hearing about them.
As you noticed, when the 2100 coins came back, it was with a HHL of 1 for the first 24 hours, in a gracious attempt to put the toothpaste back in the tube after things didn't work out for the dealer. Great! No matter what you or anyone else say, other than the set aside for ABPP, all of the mintage, maximum, short strike, whatever, is supposed to be made available to the public, with whatever HHL they put in place, during whatever initial order period they establish.
In this case, 12K, HHL of 1, 24 hours. That did not happen here, with at least 2K going to a single bulk buyer before the public was given 24 hours to buy them, one at a time. You can be fine with it. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to be. Not a nothing burger. At least not to me.
The price of this coin is set to rise this week even from the elevated price it is now if it doesn't sell out. There are still 567 coins left which is surprising given golds move. It's probably going to rise to $4715 this week and then $4765 the following week if gold stays above $3800. This is according the pricing grid. Crazy.
It has not been reposted in over a week.
The mint would hire you, they love the way you think.
Two "wrongs" by the mint don't make a right.
No, they wouldn't. I recommend staying away from modern Mint releases.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Would love to see your proof. In about 10 minutes or less I could setup a bot to monitor the inventory pages for any mint product I want and have it alert me the second inventory becomes available. How do you know they didn't just do that?
And what policy does the mint have against selling large quantities to one person/company if there is no HHL?
http://ProofCollection.Net
I'm afraid you missed the entire point. I am not saying the dealer did anything wrong. Go back and read the thread if you want "proof" of what happened. Go back and read the Mint's press release regarding this very issue. You'll find the policy right there.
For the umpteenth time, the Mint absolutely CAN do anything it wants. Including terminating numismatic sales altogether, going to a wholesale only model like they do with bullion, anything.
What they can't do is say they are going to do one thing, and then do another. If they weren't a government agency, the FTC might very well be investigating them for consumer fraud over what they did here.
If the mint had limited orders to 100 per order, then that dealer could have done 20 orders at 100 and moved many of the orders, while canceling the rest.
a single order of 2000 coins at almost 4.5k each was a bridge too far.
Just bought one more!
533
The entire point is that you allege (as a fact) that there was a conspiracy between a dealer and the mint. You have no proof of this. I posed a very possible scenario - the use of a bot to be notified when they were available and then purchased coins on the website. Why are you so sure that didn't happen?
I don't see the issue. Large buyers regularly buy large quantities of mint products on the website. This isn't against any policy or published statement.
http://ProofCollection.Net