Continued threats to the Hobby; maybe it doesn't affect anyone here...
burfle23
Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know I preach, but seriously?
So, the counterfeit threat to the Hobby continues to get worse with stuff like this hitting the Bay and the marketplace.
Maybe it's time for PCGS to do something with this cert like NGC does...
eBay did remove all 7 listings for now...
2
Comments
And the threat continues for those who intentionally don't. Sad this is funny to some...
The problem is there is no really good way to combat it other than education. Go to aliexpress and see the offerings. There is virtually no way for PCGS or anyone else to take action against counterfeiters in China.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I don't disagree, but if PCGS added a note to the cert about counterfeits using that cert number like NGC maybe the ones worth saving would at least look it up and save themselves. The lighthearted "so what" responses piss me off as I take this threat to MY Hobby seriously.
You're not nearly "pissed off" enough. No one wants to do what it would really take to solve the problem. Everything else is just virtue signaling.
Even that would be a short term fix. One may as well go with the assumption that all certifications numbers are duplicated out there somewhere or will be.
It's kind of ironic that the slab itself prevents some of the best authentication tools an individual has, like weighing or specific gravity
You don't know me. I would love your take on "wants to do what it would really take to solve the problem".
Companies should stop doing business with/in countries that not only don't respect intellectual property rights, but actively subsidize the violation of those rights.
If the companies themselves won't draw the line, then you should stop doing business with those companies. But neither one of those things will ever happen.
I was at a medium sized state show earlier this year and a "foreign" dealer was openly selling obvious counterfeit slabs as genuine. I pointed it out to the promoter and the answer was: "Nothing we can do".
We're on our own, and you're "pissed off" at the wrong people.
The thing that amazes me is that the problem continues in this age of internet information. Just how many ignorant buyers can there be who pay good money for the seemingly endless stream of counterfeit items coming on the market?
You've got to remember that the "age of information" works both ways. There is so much information that it is confusing to a novice who is less able to sort through the good and bad information.
Ask any dealer who has recently (almost definitely this week) had to explain to a drop-in that their bicentennial quarter is only worth a quarter. They have an Information Age smartphone app that says it could be worth $25.000. And they quite logically cannot fathom how the same coin (to them) could be worth only 25 cents and $25,000. A novice wouldn't understand census rarity.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Hey, I really needed a smile today so ummm ok 👍
I only do business with people I know personally who stand by their product. And everything I buy is sight seen, either by me, or by someone I trust.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Drop a copule MOAB's of the counterfeit factories,,,,,, shut them down.
I wonder if any of these higher end fakes have ever hit an auction house? Perhaps one of the resident experts can comment. Paging....
@MFeld
The issue of sellers selling common coins as rare pieces is almost as detrimental to the hobby as counterfeits. Only difference is at least these common coins are legitimate, hopefully. Still, both problems leave distaste to the unsuspecting once they learn the truth.
I am aware of at least one instance. When the auction company was notified, they pulled the lot. I am sure there are more instances.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Over a period of 30+ years I’ve seen and/or been told of a very small number of counterfeits that made it as far as being consigned to auction houses, but were detected before being sold. That said, I don’t know how many others I wasn’t aware of or how many might have been sold. My guess is that the number is quite small.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What would it take?
I answered it.
The posted ones are not "higher end fakes" in my opinion. The really higher end ones had several listed in major auction houses since I became involved in counterfeit hunting but still a low number as @MFeld states. Unfortunately a few actually sold. A couple of the 1836 Gobrecht dollars, one 1872-S seated half dollar, one 1806 half cent and a 1795 large cent come to mind and all were TPG certified as well.
@burfle23 You're not preaching, you're trying to use your knowledge to enlighten, empower and defend our hobby. I am grateful for everything you're doing. Peace Roy
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Counterfeit collectors focus on Contemporary counterfeits and not so much the junk coming out of China.
Yet... with that stated, I do see this as an issue for the budding beginner.
peacockcoins
I don’t understand how it hurts the hobby. I realize it hurts the person buying the fake whether a beginner or a seasoned pro.
So outside of a person giving up because they bought a fake how does this hurt the hobby?
By losing a future collectors. These people will buy and sell coins. We kinda need them around. So them getting discouraged with buying counterfeits will definitely hurt the Hobby in the long run. The only way go combat the situation is for them to get educated before making big mistakes.
I think you need to add "not" after "will" in your second sentence.
Agree. It stands to reason that counterfeits flooding any collectables hobby will hurt that hobby by discouraging new collectors that get burned and then leave.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@burfle23
From the above "....and all were TPG certified as well."
From this I am interpreting that these were counterfeit coins in real TPG slabs Or counterfeit coins that got by the TPG graders and were TPG slabbed.
Is this correct?
If so, then - Just wanting to distinguish between this and the multitude of counterfeit slabs with either counterfeit coins or real coins (but overtraded by the counterfeit slab). And of course raw counterfeit coins. Just multiple ways for counterfeits to be on the market.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=hYCRaWPlTIE Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover of Panama (Van Halen)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dOV1VrDuUm4 Ted Nugent, Hibernation, Live 1976
RLJ 1958 - 2023
It goes beyond the person directly harmed. It creates fear and distrust across the entire hobby.
I have a customer who has been buying from me for 25 years. I'm one of only two dealers he will currently buy from. And even then, he asks far more questions, even about slabbed material. He's buying far less than he used to and had told me it was because of the number of counterfeits out there.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Actually approx 2 decades ago Bowers & Merena or ANR, can’t recall which, auction firm had 2 + full catalogue pages of counterstamped US coins consigned & listed for auction which were all fantasy pieces struck by a skilled CA dentist or dental asst and consigned by him. The late Ron Lerch, a longtime and renowned CA exonumist , and I knew the source, identified the forger and all the multi-dozen c / s lots were pulled from the sale as the sale date a few weeks away approached. Fake exonumia is still not nearly as prevalent as with rare coins but fake cast Civil War tokens and Hard Times tokens and, to a lesser extent old Colorado and New Mexico trade tokens ( the latter two categories have been around 3 decades now ) are still a small plague. The “ secret “ is to either know your field or do business with a respected and knowledgable seller.
The ones I cited are counterfeits in real TPG holders as genuine listed or sold in major auction venues in response to @MFeld 's comment. I forgot off the top of my head 1 1798 large cent and 1 1819 large cent that made it to auction.
As a side note, I have documented over 80 counterfeit coins certified genuine and in major TPG slabs.
I assume you are OK and your keyboard just stuck...
Here is your 81st:
peacockcoins
On a (related) side note, just picked this one off of eBay:
(If you know, you know)
peacockcoins
I own 2.
I know for a fact that the counterfeit slabs are a threat to collectors confidence. It is the main reason I am selling my complete US Type set right now. I am probably way to early to sell but am extremely worried about prices of coins going out a few years if counterfeit coins get better with AI and experts cannot tell the difference. Because of these factors I am selling close to a seven figure collection. I might be one of the first to sell for this reason but I doubt if I will be the last. I appreciate the work @burfle23 has done to fight against the counterfeiters.
Unfortunately the rise in metals prices has a lot of folks thinking coin collecting is an easy way to make big money. Being naive or uninformed makes these newcomers easy bait for criminals. eBay has lots of them selling “rare one of a kind” or counterfeit coins for ridiculous prices. There is no easy buck in the coin collecting market- I have done this for a long time and it takes research, time, and a love (maybe lust) for collecting.
Someone selling the shipwreck hoard, the secret Nazi find, or the collection of King or Sheikh someone is trying to steal your money. It’s an old scam. I don’t like to crush anyone’s dream of the pot of gold but it’s just not that easy.
Don’t confuse the rise in metals prices with added value in rare and collectible coins. They are two separate categories and don’t have the impact on each other you might think.
Anyway, numismatics is fun and challenging, but don’t quit your day job. The only easy money I’m aware of is inherited and nobody in my family has any lying around…….