Not a yes or no for me. I can grade fairly proficiently from a quality photo, but if lighting or angle becomes a mainstay of the photo, then no and especially not if photoshop techniques are used to hide features or enhance others to give the coin a better strike or view.
I can on the occasion see through lighting issues and realize a coin to be better inhand than the seller's photo.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@BillJones said:
How did I learn the fundamentals of grading? The book “Photograde.” That says quite a lot about the issue.
That doesn’t address current grading scales for mint state and Proof coins, when trying to grade to an accuracy of a single point (or even two points). And that’s a major portion of the grading universe.
You had best not go too far with this issue. A lot of your employer's revenue is dependent on selling coins at auction based upon Internet pictures. If all the bidders had to see the coins before they bid on them, you employer would lose a lot of bids, and lots could sell for less.
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BillJones said:
How did I learn the fundamentals of grading? The book “Photograde.” That says quite a lot about the issue.
That doesn’t address current grading scales for mint state and Proof coins, when trying to grade to an accuracy of a single point (or even two points). And that’s a major portion of the grading universe.
You had best not go too far with this issue. A lot of your employer's revenue is dependent on selling coins at auction based upon Internet pictures. If all the bidders had to see the coins before they bid on them, you employer would lose a lot of bids, and lots could sell for less.
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
You and I both know that not all grades are the same. If grades were like cans of tomato soup, the CAC sticker business would not have gotten off the ground.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
How did I learn the fundamentals of grading? The book “Photograde.” That says quite a lot about the issue.
That doesn’t address current grading scales for mint state and Proof coins, when trying to grade to an accuracy of a single point (or even two points). And that’s a major portion of the grading universe.
You had best not go too far with this issue. A lot of your employer's revenue is dependent on selling coins at auction based upon Internet pictures. If all the bidders had to see the coins before they bid on them, you employer would lose a lot of bids, and lots could sell for less.
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
You and I both know that not all grades are the same. If grades were like cans of tomato soup, the CAC sticker business would not have gotten off the ground.
Yes, of course we both know that.
And it doesn’t change the reality that trying to grade ungraded coins from images and buying them is very different from buying professionally graded coins (either with or without having an additional party view them and provide feedback).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can shoot a coin, without any manipulation, to appear either higher or lower grade than would show on a slab. I all depends on the lighting. I can usually shoot a coin to appear at the correct grade, but folks don't usually like those images since they show marks and such they don't really want to see.
PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:
I guess the real question should be , can you accurately grade a coin from a picture.
And the answer is no.
People have a hard time grading a coin in hand much less from a picture.
It takes years to learn how to grade and some will never be able to
After 65+ years collecting coins I'm still learning................
Yes but there are limitations and the caveat is that the photo is great quality. You cannot tell if a coin is PL or DMPL, but I said yes because you can pretty accurately get a grade number.
Is the question asking if I can grade from images or "can one grade from images?" Much depends on the image and the coin, as has already been stated. With some images, there is no hope. With some coins, quality of image is less critical. There's also a difference in grading from an image and guessing the grade of a coin correctly. Nobody would assign a grade of a proof coin based on a static image, since you have to get a much better look than such an image can provide. Guessing the grade and being correct is a different game.
@rmpsrpms said:
I can shoot a coin, without any manipulation, to appear either higher or lower grade than would show on a slab. I all depends on the lighting. I can usually shoot a coin to appear at the correct grade, but folks don't usually like those images since they show marks and such they don't really want to see.
Of course. But someone experienced in the series can usually adjust for such differences or at least know when there isn't enough information to even guess.
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
That's a little different from grading based on just an image. Given a coin and a grade, once you get used to the qualities of a seller's pictures, you can make a pretty good judgment call. Given a random picture of an ungraded coin and left with the task of grading it, you'll be able to make a guess sometimes, even an accurate one, but with many coins you'll want a better look than just the image.
@BillJones said:
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
That's a little different from grading based on just an image. Given a coin and a grade, once you get used to the qualities of a seller's pictures, you can make a pretty good judgment call. Given a random picture of an ungraded coin and left with the task of grading it, you'll be able to make a guess sometimes, even an accurate one, but with many coins you'll want a better look than just the image.
Would you be willing to elaborate a little on this?
Specifically, what would the line be for coin type type/image quality that you’d be able to grade off of?
@BillJones said:
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
That's a little different from grading based on just an image. Given a coin and a grade, once you get used to the qualities of a seller's pictures, you can make a pretty good judgment call. Given a random picture of an ungraded coin and left with the task of grading it, you'll be able to make a guess sometimes, even an accurate one, but with many coins you'll want a better look than just the image.
Would you be willing to elaborate a little on this?
Specifically, what would the line be for coin type type/image quality that you’d be able to grade off of?
If I have to wonder if something could be hiding on the coin that the image doesn't show, then I wouldn't say I could grade from that image. Does a proof have hairlines? Are there contact marks hiding in the luster being shown on an MS coin? Does a VF coin have surfaces that are too glossy to be just wear? Again, I could guess what grade is or would be assigned to it, but it would be with incomplete information and therefore prone to more error than otherwise.
@BillJones said:
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
That's a little different from grading based on just an image. Given a coin and a grade, once you get used to the qualities of a seller's pictures, you can make a pretty good judgment call. Given a random picture of an ungraded coin and left with the task of grading it, you'll be able to make a guess sometimes, even an accurate one, but with many coins you'll want a better look than just the image.
Would you be willing to elaborate a little on this?
Specifically, what would the line be for coin type type/image quality that you’d be able to grade off of?
If I have to wonder if something could be hiding on the coin that the image doesn't show, then I wouldn't say I could grade from that image. Does a proof have hairlines? Are there contact marks hiding in the luster being shown on an MS coin? Does a VF coin have surfaces that are too glossy to be just wear? Again, I could guess what grade is or would be assigned to it, but it would be with incomplete information and therefore prone to more error than otherwise.
@PerryHall said:
We need a "It depends" option. You can usually get a good approximate grade from quality high-resolution pics taken under good lighting. The problem with pics is that hairlines don't always show up well.
My goal here is to get people to take a stand on the issue, I intend to integrate public opinion into the studies that I'm currently running. Those studies will show evidence one way or the other, so part of my research is whether public opinion has stopped or encouraged people to learn how to grade from images.
Too many variables involved making your study interesting but not conclusive of anything except for a sliding trend resulting in this outcome:
The best results will occur when a very clear, sharp, LIGHT DYNAMIC, magnified image with correct colors is shown to any very experienced coin grader who still has good vision. That's my "stand" and I'm sticking to it. However, images in guides and on the Internet provides a very good learning tool as a start.
PS If GTG was run for one day so that many members would be correct and many would be wrong, over time you would get a much better answer to your question based on percentages. There are a lot of knowledgeable members taking guesses. Additionally, if we wanted to actually learn something from GTG posts, members would give the reason for their grade choice. I teach seminars on military tactics, and we beat the hell out of each situation.
I think a good example of the "light dynamic" you mention is the difference between True View and a good photo of a coin in the TPG slab (many sellers provide both). Different information is provided by each approach. Luster is probably the biggest unknown in a photo, yet it's a significant component of grading.
Does the material give rise to the immaterial, or vice versa?
Wouldn't that also show that Whizzing is not a serious consideration. Humm, this image alone proves that some things can be determined by the "right" image of a coin.
What indicates that whizzing wouldn't be a serious consideration? The image you shared looks like it's just a die crack, but many of us can tell if a coin's surfaces have been worked from a photo.
I voted no. And, especially so on the 2 grades I spend a good portion of my numismatic day determining between; those being 69 and 70. On the other hand, I believe there is a much stronger likelihood one can grade from pics better if deciding between AG-3 and G-4, or possibly even F-15 or VF-20. And, for that matter possibly even MS64 and MS65 in certain coin series.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
It should be fairly obvious that this is not the case:
“An in-person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
A photograph shows one particular angle of a coin. A single angle can hides all sorts of issues, or conversely hide luster and make a coin look worse than it is. Even the best quality photo, if taken at the wrong angle, will not show the single tiny wispy hairline that separates a PR69 from a PR70. A coin needs to be rotated to view all possible angles. Any grader or experienced dealer will rotate a coin while coming to a conclusion on grade.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t particular coins that are gradable with a high degree of accuracy from a particular angle as seen in a particular photo, but as a blanket statement the above quote is false. Grading from photos is matter of probability - you are assuming that the photos do not hide issues, and that the coin is as it seems. Some photos and some coins allow that probability to be higher than others.
@PerryHall said:
We need a "It depends" option. You can usually get a good approximate grade from quality high-resolution pics taken under good lighting. The problem with pics is that hairlines don't always show up well.
My goal here is to get people to take a stand on the issue, I intend to integrate public opinion into the studies that I'm currently running. Those studies will show evidence one way or the other, so part of my research is whether public opinion has stopped or encouraged people to learn how to grade from images.
Too many variables involved making your study interesting but not conclusive of anything except for a sliding trend resulting in this outcome:
The best results will occur when a very clear, sharp, LIGHT DYNAMIC, magnified image with correct colors is shown to any very experienced coin grader who still has good vision. That's my "stand" and I'm sticking to it. However, images in guides and on the Internet provides a very good learning tool as a start.
PS If GTG was run for one day so that many members would be correct and many would be wrong, over time you would get a much better answer to your question based on percentages. There are a lot of knowledgeable members taking guesses. Additionally, if we wanted to actually learn something from GTG posts, members would give the reason for their grade choice. I teach seminars on military tactics, and we beat the hell out of each situation.
I think a good example of the "light dynamic" you mention is the difference between True View and a good photo of a coinin the TPG slab (many sellers provide both). Different information is provided by each approach. Luster is probably the biggest unknown in a photo, yet it's a significant component of grading.
Nope. I believe J.P. Martin coined the words "make a coin light dynamic." In the case of an image, it means a moving video showing the coin's luster. True views and any other static image only show the luster from one position of the coin in the light. Virtually any static image HIDES SOMETHING or does not bring out something.
For those who voted "Yes", I welcome any solid rebuttals to this excellent, detailed post by @Rexford. I don't think you can do it.
"It should be fairly obvious that this is not the case:
“An in-person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
A photograph shows one particular angle of a coin. A single angle can hides all sorts of issues, or conversely hide luster and make a coin look worse than it is. Even the best quality photo, if taken at the wrong angle, will not show the single tiny wispy hairline that separates a PR69 from a PR70. A coin needs to be rotated to view all possible angles. Any grader or experienced dealer will rotate a coin while coming to a conclusion on grade.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t particular coins that are gradable with a high degree of accuracy from a particular angle as seen in a particular photo, but as a blanket statement the above quote is false. Grading from photos is matter of probability - you are assuming that the photos do not hide issues, and that the coin is as it seems. Some photos and some coins allow that probability to be higher than others."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
For those who voted "Yes", I welcome any solid rebuttals to this excellent, detailed post by @Rexford. I don't think you can do it.
"It should be fairly obvious that this is not the case:
“An in-person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
A photograph shows one particular angle of a coin. A single angle can hides all sorts of issues, or conversely hide luster and make a coin look worse than it is. Even the best quality photo, if taken at the wrong angle, will not show the single tiny wispy hairline that separates a PR69 from a PR70. A coin needs to be rotated to view all possible angles. Any grader or experienced dealer will rotate a coin while coming to a conclusion on grade.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t particular coins that are gradable with a high degree of accuracy from a particular angle as seen in a particular photo, but as a blanket statement the above quote is false. Grading from photos is matter of probability - you are assuming that the photos do not hide issues, and that the coin is as it seems. Some photos and some coins allow that probability to be higher than others."
Mark, can an in person grader separate a PR69 from a PR70 consistently?
In the last month I saw a rather extreme example of a major grade swing for a very expensive coin. I suppose it comes down to if in person grading truly offers an advantage - or if it depends on the skill of the grader.
@MFeld said:
For those who voted "Yes", I welcome any solid rebuttals to this excellent, detailed post by @Rexford. I don't think you can do it.
"It should be fairly obvious that this is not the case:
“An in-person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
A photograph shows one particular angle of a coin. A single angle can hides all sorts of issues, or conversely hide luster and make a coin look worse than it is. Even the best quality photo, if taken at the wrong angle, will not show the single tiny wispy hairline that separates a PR69 from a PR70. A coin needs to be rotated to view all possible angles. Any grader or experienced dealer will rotate a coin while coming to a conclusion on grade.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t particular coins that are gradable with a high degree of accuracy from a particular angle as seen in a particular photo, but as a blanket statement the above quote is false. Grading from photos is matter of probability - you are assuming that the photos do not hide issues, and that the coin is as it seems. Some photos and some coins allow that probability to be higher than others."
Mark, can an in person grader separate a PR69 from a PR70 consistently?
In the last month I saw a rather extreme example of a major grade swing for a very expensive coin. I suppose it comes down to if in person grading truly offers an advantage - or if it depends on the skill of the grader.
Alex, whatever the skill of the grader, he/she can see and assess coins better in hand than in images. It shouldn’t even be a question.
Edited to add: In-hand grading adds a significant advantage and it depends upon the skill of the grader.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I tend to equate grading with making a purchase decision. As a collector not interested in making a living or profiting from grading, my main concerns are getting a coin that pleases ME, getting value for my money and preserving that value.
In this context I can say without equivocation, that even in the case of a professionally-graded coin, it is a great advantage examining a coin in person rather than making a purchase decision based on an image, a description, whatever. I would call that “grading”. As a practical matter I must use images, so I have to rely on them along with the opinions of professionals, the more the better.
@MFeld said:
For those who voted "Yes", I welcome any solid rebuttals to this excellent, detailed post by @Rexford. I don't think you can do it.
"It should be fairly obvious that this is not the case:
“An in-person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
A photograph shows one particular angle of a coin. A single angle can hides all sorts of issues, or conversely hide luster and make a coin look worse than it is. Even the best quality photo, if taken at the wrong angle, will not show the single tiny wispy hairline that separates a PR69 from a PR70. A coin needs to be rotated to view all possible angles. Any grader or experienced dealer will rotate a coin while coming to a conclusion on grade.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t particular coins that are gradable with a high degree of accuracy from a particular angle as seen in a particular photo, but as a blanket statement the above quote is false. Grading from photos is matter of probability - you are assuming that the photos do not hide issues, and that the coin is as it seems. Some photos and some coins allow that probability to be higher than others."
Mark, can an in person grader separate a PR69 from a PR70 consistently?
That’s generally the easiest single grade difference there is to judge, with the coin in hand. It’s one of the most difficult from an image - you could never be sure that a coin is a 70 from an image, ignoring probability based on the type of coin / graded pops.
@MFeld said:
For those who voted "Yes", I welcome any solid rebuttals to this excellent, detailed post by @Rexford. I don't think you can do it.
"It should be fairly obvious that this is not the case:
“An in-person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
A photograph shows one particular angle of a coin. A single angle can hides all sorts of issues, or conversely hide luster and make a coin look worse than it is. Even the best quality photo, if taken at the wrong angle, will not show the single tiny wispy hairline that separates a PR69 from a PR70. A coin needs to be rotated to view all possible angles. Any grader or experienced dealer will rotate a coin while coming to a conclusion on grade.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t particular coins that are gradable with a high degree of accuracy from a particular angle as seen in a particular photo, but as a blanket statement the above quote is false. Grading from photos is matter of probability - you are assuming that the photos do not hide issues, and that the coin is as it seems. Some photos and some coins allow that probability to be higher than others."
Marks don't necessarily disappear when seen from the wrong angle; they just change their appearance. Frequently they look more like "roughness" than countable marks. As @Wondercoin said; some grades ae easier to assign than others. I'm differentiating mostly MS-64 from 65 from 66 and mostly on clad. i wouldn't want to try it on bust half dollars or 69 from 70.
NO. Hairlines, carbon flecks, getting the exact look of a toned coin, looking at CBHs in MS 58 - 63 and being able to distinguish what's wear and what's not struck up on the coin, and what Rexford wrote.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@PerryHall said:
We need a "It depends" option. You can usually get a good approximate grade from quality high-resolution pics taken under good lighting. The problem with pics is that hairlines don't always show up well.
My goal here is to get people to take a stand on the issue, I intend to integrate public opinion into the studies that I'm currently running. Those studies will show evidence one way or the other, so part of my research is whether public opinion has stopped or encouraged people to learn how to grade from images.
Too many variables involved making your study interesting but not conclusive of anything except for a sliding trend resulting in this outcome:
The best results will occur when a very clear, sharp, LIGHT DYNAMIC, magnified image with correct colors is shown to any very experienced coin grader who still has good vision. That's my "stand" and I'm sticking to it. However, images in guides and on the Internet provides a very good learning tool as a start.
PS If GTG was run for one day so that many members would be correct and many would be wrong, over time you would get a much better answer to your question based on percentages. There are a lot of knowledgeable members taking guesses. Additionally, if we wanted to actually learn something from GTG posts, members would give the reason for their grade choice. I teach seminars on military tactics, and we beat the hell out of each situation.
I think a good example of the "light dynamic" you mention is the difference between True View and a good photo of a coin in the TPG slab (many sellers provide both). Different information is provided by each approach. Luster is probably the biggest unknown in a photo, yet it's a significant component of grading.
The difference between a True View photo and a coin's holder photo, may be a significant dynamic component, and could show evidence one way or the other. (On the clock or Sentimental Value)
Think of this.
Any photo, from any knowledgeable approach of the subjects (the coin's fact) best reproductive ready photographic view, should be the camera's goal.
Example:
Would you want this photo reproduced on a business card ? Your business card ?
On the clock? You get paid.
Communication may be dynamic, not traumatic.
Effective communication,
involves clearly conveying photo's so that the receiver understands the sender's intent. It's a two-way process that includes both sending and receiving photo's, with the goal of mutual understanding and satisfaction. Key elements of effective communication include , clear view's, and adapting your photo communication style, to your audience.
One day I saw a small safe in front of a house. Digital locking system.
No instructions were present. I knocked on the owners door. I asked the home owner for the safe's combination. Surprise was all over her face as she giggled out, sure, it's...
The combo, opened the safe's instructions, and the only traumatic part was, changing the combo.
My answer is still "Slim chance". @emeraldATV
Perhaps the terms need to be refined. The bottom line is there is never enough information from a photo to be certain you can make a correct judgement as to grade. However frequently you can tell there isn't enough information and when you can't tell there isn't enough you'll frequently nail the grade. Of course getting the grade right from photos is just like real life; you get better with experience.
There is probably less disagreement here than apparent. Most things are a shade of grey just like marking or rub on a coin held at the wrong angle.
Comments
Not a yes or no for me. I can grade fairly proficiently from a quality photo, but if lighting or angle becomes a mainstay of the photo, then no and especially not if photoshop techniques are used to hide features or enhance others to give the coin a better strike or view.
I can on the occasion see through lighting issues and realize a coin to be better inhand than the seller's photo.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Me, personally?.... No. Not by images or in hand. I'm not a professional...
But I can come pretty close knowing the difference between these two images without being dangerous. 😉
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I voted no. If this is like hand grenades, where close counts, please change my vote to yes.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You and I both know that not all grades are the same. If grades were like cans of tomato soup, the CAC sticker business would not have gotten off the ground.
I voted no. I use images to select coins of interest. I then ask a trusted expert for their opinion since I only attend one or two shows a year.
Yes, of course we both know that.
And it doesn’t change the reality that trying to grade ungraded coins from images and buying them is very different from buying professionally graded coins (either with or without having an additional party view them and provide feedback).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No.
Not with accuracy.
You can grade from images, even bad images, but no matter how good the image there is a very real chance you'll be completely wrong.
I can shoot a coin, without any manipulation, to appear either higher or lower grade than would show on a slab. I all depends on the lighting. I can usually shoot a coin to appear at the correct grade, but folks don't usually like those images since they show marks and such they don't really want to see.
http://macrocoins.com
I guess the real question should be , can you accurately grade a coin from a picture.
And the answer is no.
People have a hard time grading a coin in hand much less from a picture.
It takes years to learn how to grade and some will never be able to
After 65+ years collecting coins I'm still learning................
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
Yes but there are limitations and the caveat is that the photo is great quality. You cannot tell if a coin is PL or DMPL, but I said yes because you can pretty accurately get a grade number.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I say no, grading from images (even videos) cannot do what the eye and brain do in reality. But for me, images can tip a buying decision on TPG coins.
Does the material give rise to the immaterial, or vice versa?
NO.
Unless the images were photographed by the grader, and why they pertain to it's final grade.
Is the question asking if I can grade from images or "can one grade from images?" Much depends on the image and the coin, as has already been stated. With some images, there is no hope. With some coins, quality of image is less critical. There's also a difference in grading from an image and guessing the grade of a coin correctly. Nobody would assign a grade of a proof coin based on a static image, since you have to get a much better look than such an image can provide. Guessing the grade and being correct is a different game.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Of course. But someone experienced in the series can usually adjust for such differences or at least know when there isn't enough information to even guess.
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
That's a little different from grading based on just an image. Given a coin and a grade, once you get used to the qualities of a seller's pictures, you can make a pretty good judgment call. Given a random picture of an ungraded coin and left with the task of grading it, you'll be able to make a guess sometimes, even an accurate one, but with many coins you'll want a better look than just the image.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Would you be willing to elaborate a little on this?
Specifically, what would the line be for coin type type/image quality that you’d be able to grade off of?
If I have to wonder if something could be hiding on the coin that the image doesn't show, then I wouldn't say I could grade from that image. Does a proof have hairlines? Are there contact marks hiding in the luster being shown on an MS coin? Does a VF coin have surfaces that are too glossy to be just wear? Again, I could guess what grade is or would be assigned to it, but it would be with incomplete information and therefore prone to more error than otherwise.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Excellent answer, thank you!
I think a good example of the "light dynamic" you mention is the difference between True View and a good photo of a coin in the TPG slab (many sellers provide both). Different information is provided by each approach. Luster is probably the biggest unknown in a photo, yet it's a significant component of grading.
Does the material give rise to the immaterial, or vice versa?
What indicates that whizzing wouldn't be a serious consideration? The image you shared looks like it's just a die crack, but many of us can tell if a coin's surfaces have been worked from a photo.
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I voted no. And, especially so on the 2 grades I spend a good portion of my numismatic day determining between; those being 69 and 70. On the other hand, I believe there is a much stronger likelihood one can grade from pics better if deciding between AG-3 and G-4, or possibly even F-15 or VF-20. And, for that matter possibly even MS64 and MS65 in certain coin series.
Wondercoin
It should be fairly obvious that this is not the case:
“An in-person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
A photograph shows one particular angle of a coin. A single angle can hides all sorts of issues, or conversely hide luster and make a coin look worse than it is. Even the best quality photo, if taken at the wrong angle, will not show the single tiny wispy hairline that separates a PR69 from a PR70. A coin needs to be rotated to view all possible angles. Any grader or experienced dealer will rotate a coin while coming to a conclusion on grade.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t particular coins that are gradable with a high degree of accuracy from a particular angle as seen in a particular photo, but as a blanket statement the above quote is false. Grading from photos is matter of probability - you are assuming that the photos do not hide issues, and that the coin is as it seems. Some photos and some coins allow that probability to be higher than others.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Perhaps this absolutely disgusting and shockingly casual racism is enough to get rid of you. Good riddance.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Like this? https://www.coinnews.net/2025/03/11/stacks-bowers-galleries-brings-coins-in-motion-to-collectors-and-dealers/
Does the material give rise to the immaterial, or vice versa?
Yes I can grade from images and won some nice coins from GC.
For those who voted "Yes", I welcome any solid rebuttals to this excellent, detailed post by @Rexford. I don't think you can do it.
"It should be fairly obvious that this is not the case:
“An in-person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
A photograph shows one particular angle of a coin. A single angle can hides all sorts of issues, or conversely hide luster and make a coin look worse than it is. Even the best quality photo, if taken at the wrong angle, will not show the single tiny wispy hairline that separates a PR69 from a PR70. A coin needs to be rotated to view all possible angles. Any grader or experienced dealer will rotate a coin while coming to a conclusion on grade.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t particular coins that are gradable with a high degree of accuracy from a particular angle as seen in a particular photo, but as a blanket statement the above quote is false. Grading from photos is matter of probability - you are assuming that the photos do not hide issues, and that the coin is as it seems. Some photos and some coins allow that probability to be higher than others."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, can an in person grader separate a PR69 from a PR70 consistently?
In the last month I saw a rather extreme example of a major grade swing for a very expensive coin. I suppose it comes down to if in person grading truly offers an advantage - or if it depends on the skill of the grader.
Alex, whatever the skill of the grader, he/she can see and assess coins better in hand than in images. It shouldn’t even be a question.
Edited to add: In-hand grading adds a significant advantage and it depends upon the skill of the grader.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I tend to equate grading with making a purchase decision. As a collector not interested in making a living or profiting from grading, my main concerns are getting a coin that pleases ME, getting value for my money and preserving that value.
In this context I can say without equivocation, that even in the case of a professionally-graded coin, it is a great advantage examining a coin in person rather than making a purchase decision based on an image, a description, whatever. I would call that “grading”. As a practical matter I must use images, so I have to rely on them along with the opinions of professionals, the more the better.
That’s generally the easiest single grade difference there is to judge, with the coin in hand. It’s one of the most difficult from an image - you could never be sure that a coin is a 70 from an image, ignoring probability based on the type of coin / graded pops.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Marks don't necessarily disappear when seen from the wrong angle; they just change their appearance. Frequently they look more like "roughness" than countable marks. As @Wondercoin said; some grades ae easier to assign than others. I'm differentiating mostly MS-64 from 65 from 66 and mostly on clad. i wouldn't want to try it on bust half dollars or 69 from 70.
NO. Hairlines, carbon flecks, getting the exact look of a toned coin, looking at CBHs in MS 58 - 63 and being able to distinguish what's wear and what's not struck up on the coin, and what Rexford wrote.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I agree with MFeld "You need to define “noticeably more accurate”. Without a clear detailed definition your study has little meaning.
The difference between a True View photo and a coin's holder photo, may be a significant dynamic component, and could show evidence one way or the other. (On the clock or Sentimental Value)
Think of this.
Any photo, from any knowledgeable approach of the subjects (the coin's fact) best reproductive ready photographic view, should be the camera's goal.
Example:
Would you want this photo reproduced on a business card ? Your business card ?
On the clock? You get paid.
Communication may be dynamic, not traumatic.
Effective communication,
involves clearly conveying photo's so that the receiver understands the sender's intent. It's a two-way process that includes both sending and receiving photo's, with the goal of mutual understanding and satisfaction. Key elements of effective communication include , clear view's, and adapting your photo communication style, to your audience.
One day I saw a small safe in front of a house. Digital locking system.
No instructions were present. I knocked on the owners door. I asked the home owner for the safe's combination. Surprise was all over her face as she giggled out, sure, it's...
The combo, opened the safe's instructions, and the only traumatic part was, changing the combo.
My answer is still "Slim chance".
@emeraldATV
Perhaps the terms need to be refined. The bottom line is there is never enough information from a photo to be certain you can make a correct judgement as to grade. However frequently you can tell there isn't enough information and when you can't tell there isn't enough you'll frequently nail the grade. Of course getting the grade right from photos is just like real life; you get better with experience.
There is probably less disagreement here than apparent. Most things are a shade of grey just like marking or rub on a coin held at the wrong angle.