Not a yes or no for me. I can grade fairly proficiently from a quality photo, but if lighting or angle becomes a mainstay of the photo, then no and especially not if photoshop techniques are used to hide features or enhance others to give the coin a better strike or view.
I can on the occasion see through lighting issues and realize a coin to be better inhand than the seller's photo.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@PerryHall said:
We need a "It depends" option. You can usually get a good approximate grade from quality high-resolution pics taken under good lighting. The problem with pics is that hairlines don't always show up well.
My goal here is to get people to take a stand on the issue, I intend to integrate public opinion into the studies that I'm currently running. Those studies will show evidence one way or the other, so part of my research is whether public opinion has stopped or encouraged people to learn how to grade from images.
Too many variables involved making your study interesting but not conclusive of anything except for a sliding trend resulting in this outcome:
The best results will occur when a very clear, sharp, LIGHT DYNAMIC, magnified image with correct colors is shown to any very experienced coin grader who still has good vision. That's my "stand" and I'm sticking to it. However, images in guides and on the Internet provides a very good learning tool as a start.
PS If GTG was run for one day so that many members would be correct and many would be wrong, over time you would get a much better answer to your question based on percentages. There are a lot of knowledgeable members taking guesses. Additionally, if we wanted to actually learn something from GTG posts, members would give the reason for their grade choice. I teach seminars on military tactics, and we beat the hell out of each situation.
@BillJones said:
How did I learn the fundamentals of grading? The book “Photograde.” That says quite a lot about the issue.
That doesn’t address current grading scales for mint state and Proof coins, when trying to grade to an accuracy of a single point (or even two points). And that’s a major portion of the grading universe.
You had best not go too far with this issue. A lot of your employer's revenue is dependent on selling coins at auction based upon Internet pictures. If all the bidders had to see the coins before they bid on them, you employer would lose a lot of bids, and lots could sell for less.
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BillJones said:
How did I learn the fundamentals of grading? The book “Photograde.” That says quite a lot about the issue.
That doesn’t address current grading scales for mint state and Proof coins, when trying to grade to an accuracy of a single point (or even two points). And that’s a major portion of the grading universe.
You had best not go too far with this issue. A lot of your employer's revenue is dependent on selling coins at auction based upon Internet pictures. If all the bidders had to see the coins before they bid on them, you employer would lose a lot of bids, and lots could sell for less.
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
You and I both know that not all grades are the same. If grades were like cans of tomato soup, the CAC sticker business would not have gotten off the ground.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
How did I learn the fundamentals of grading? The book “Photograde.” That says quite a lot about the issue.
That doesn’t address current grading scales for mint state and Proof coins, when trying to grade to an accuracy of a single point (or even two points). And that’s a major portion of the grading universe.
You had best not go too far with this issue. A lot of your employer's revenue is dependent on selling coins at auction based upon Internet pictures. If all the bidders had to see the coins before they bid on them, you employer would lose a lot of bids, and lots could sell for less.
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
You and I both know that not all grades are the same. If grades were like cans of tomato soup, the CAC sticker business would not have gotten off the ground.
I disagree in part. Obviously, all the grades can be divided from Grade.1, Grade.2, grade.3, to grade.10 or a simpler A, B, C.
I read that CAC picked out the A, B coins BUT WAS ESPECIALLY NEEDED because TPG of "market acceptable" PROBLEM COINS GOT WAY OUT OF HAND! I have heard and even seen a few coins where, IMO, CACG has been way to critical.
@BillJones said:
How did I learn the fundamentals of grading? The book “Photograde.” That says quite a lot about the issue.
That doesn’t address current grading scales for mint state and Proof coins, when trying to grade to an accuracy of a single point (or even two points). And that’s a major portion of the grading universe.
You had best not go too far with this issue. A lot of your employer's revenue is dependent on selling coins at auction based upon Internet pictures. If all the bidders had to see the coins before they bid on them, you employer would lose a lot of bids, and lots could sell for less.
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
You and I both know that not all grades are the same. If grades were like cans of tomato soup, the CAC sticker business would not have gotten off the ground.
Yes, of course we both know that.
And it doesn’t change the reality that trying to grade ungraded coins from images and buying them is very different from buying professionally graded coins (either with or without having an additional party view them and provide feedback).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can shoot a coin, without any manipulation, to appear either higher or lower grade than would show on a slab. I all depends on the lighting. I can usually shoot a coin to appear at the correct grade, but folks don't usually like those images since they show marks and such they don't really want to see.
PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:
I guess the real question should be , can you accurately grade a coin from a picture.
And the answer is no.
People have a hard time grading a coin in hand much less from a picture.
It takes years to learn how to grade and some will never be able to
After 65+ years collecting coins I'm still learning................
Yes but there are limitations and the caveat is that the photo is great quality. You cannot tell if a coin is PL or DMPL, but I said yes because you can pretty accurately get a grade number.
Wouldn't that also show that Whizzing is not a serious consideration. Humm, this image alone proves that some things can be determined by the "right" image of a coin.
Is the question asking if I can grade from images or "can one grade from images?" Much depends on the image and the coin, as has already been stated. With some images, there is no hope. With some coins, quality of image is less critical. There's also a difference in grading from an image and guessing the grade of a coin correctly. Nobody would assign a grade of a proof coin based on a static image, since you have to get a much better look than such an image can provide. Guessing the grade and being correct is a different game.
@rmpsrpms said:
I can shoot a coin, without any manipulation, to appear either higher or lower grade than would show on a slab. I all depends on the lighting. I can usually shoot a coin to appear at the correct grade, but folks don't usually like those images since they show marks and such they don't really want to see.
Of course. But someone experienced in the series can usually adjust for such differences or at least know when there isn't enough information to even guess.
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
That's a little different from grading based on just an image. Given a coin and a grade, once you get used to the qualities of a seller's pictures, you can make a pretty good judgment call. Given a random picture of an ungraded coin and left with the task of grading it, you'll be able to make a guess sometimes, even an accurate one, but with many coins you'll want a better look than just the image.
@BillJones said:
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
That's a little different from grading based on just an image. Given a coin and a grade, once you get used to the qualities of a seller's pictures, you can make a pretty good judgment call. Given a random picture of an ungraded coin and left with the task of grading it, you'll be able to make a guess sometimes, even an accurate one, but with many coins you'll want a better look than just the image.
Would you be willing to elaborate a little on this?
Specifically, what would the line be for coin type type/image quality that you’d be able to grade off of?
Comments
Not a yes or no for me. I can grade fairly proficiently from a quality photo, but if lighting or angle becomes a mainstay of the photo, then no and especially not if photoshop techniques are used to hide features or enhance others to give the coin a better strike or view.
I can on the occasion see through lighting issues and realize a coin to be better inhand than the seller's photo.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Me, personally?.... No. Not by images or in hand. I'm not a professional...
But I can come pretty close knowing the difference between these two images without being dangerous. 😉
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Too many variables involved making your study interesting but not conclusive of anything except for a sliding trend resulting in this outcome:
The best results will occur when a very clear, sharp, LIGHT DYNAMIC, magnified image with correct colors is shown to any very experienced coin grader who still has good vision. That's my "stand" and I'm sticking to it. However, images in guides and on the Internet provides a very good learning tool as a start.
PS If GTG was run for one day so that many members would be correct and many would be wrong, over time you would get a much better answer to your question based on percentages. There are a lot of knowledgeable members taking guesses. Additionally, if we wanted to actually learn something from GTG posts, members would give the reason for their grade choice. I teach seminars on military tactics, and we beat the hell out of each situation.
I voted no. If this is like hand grenades, where close counts, please change my vote to yes.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
That ignores the fact that the coins have already been professionally graded by multiple graders who examined the coins in hand and didn’t have to grade from images. Additionally, many bidders have representatives assess auction lots in hand for them for additional opinions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You and I both know that not all grades are the same. If grades were like cans of tomato soup, the CAC sticker business would not have gotten off the ground.
I disagree in part. Obviously, all the grades can be divided from Grade.1, Grade.2, grade.3, to grade.10 or a simpler A, B, C.
I read that CAC picked out the A, B coins BUT WAS ESPECIALLY NEEDED because TPG of "market acceptable" PROBLEM COINS GOT WAY OUT OF HAND! I have heard and even seen a few coins where, IMO, CACG has been way to critical.
I voted no. I use images to select coins of interest. I then ask a trusted expert for their opinion since I only attend one or two shows a year.
Yes, of course we both know that.
And it doesn’t change the reality that trying to grade ungraded coins from images and buying them is very different from buying professionally graded coins (either with or without having an additional party view them and provide feedback).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No.
Not with accuracy.
You can grade from images, even bad images, but no matter how good the image there is a very real chance you'll be completely wrong.
I can shoot a coin, without any manipulation, to appear either higher or lower grade than would show on a slab. I all depends on the lighting. I can usually shoot a coin to appear at the correct grade, but folks don't usually like those images since they show marks and such they don't really want to see.
http://macrocoins.com
I guess the real question should be , can you accurately grade a coin from a picture.
And the answer is no.
People have a hard time grading a coin in hand much less from a picture.
It takes years to learn how to grade and some will never be able to
After 65+ years collecting coins I'm still learning................
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
Yes but there are limitations and the caveat is that the photo is great quality. You cannot tell if a coin is PL or DMPL, but I said yes because you can pretty accurately get a grade number.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I say no, grading from images (even videos) cannot do what the eye and brain do in reality. But for me, images can tip a buying decision on TPG coins.
Does the material give rise to the immaterial, or vice versa?
NO.
Unless the images were photographed by the grader, and why they pertain to it's final grade.
Wouldn't that also show that Whizzing is not a serious consideration. Humm, this image alone proves that some things can be determined by the "right" image of a coin.
Is the question asking if I can grade from images or "can one grade from images?" Much depends on the image and the coin, as has already been stated. With some images, there is no hope. With some coins, quality of image is less critical. There's also a difference in grading from an image and guessing the grade of a coin correctly. Nobody would assign a grade of a proof coin based on a static image, since you have to get a much better look than such an image can provide. Guessing the grade and being correct is a different game.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Of course. But someone experienced in the series can usually adjust for such differences or at least know when there isn't enough information to even guess.
If you can’t judge coins from good images, you can’t bid in auctions on the Internet.
That's a little different from grading based on just an image. Given a coin and a grade, once you get used to the qualities of a seller's pictures, you can make a pretty good judgment call. Given a random picture of an ungraded coin and left with the task of grading it, you'll be able to make a guess sometimes, even an accurate one, but with many coins you'll want a better look than just the image.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Would you be willing to elaborate a little on this?
Specifically, what would the line be for coin type type/image quality that you’d be able to grade off of?