Can You Grade From Images?
FlyingAl
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Just a poll to gather public opinion on this. Standard for a "yes" vote is that an in person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.
Can You Grade From Images?
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
2
Comments
The answer is: Depends on the image.
IMO you can grade from images only to within a certain degree of accuracy, but you certainly can grade more accurately seeing the coin in hand, and rotating it in light.
I do think that today’s higher resolution online photo images allow you to identify many varieties, such as Morgan Dollar VAMS.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
We need a "It depends" option. You can usually get a good approximate grade from quality high-resolution pics taken under good lighting. The problem with pics is that hairlines don't always show up well.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall — Well stated. — I agree with your comment.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
My goal here is to get people to take a stand on the issue, I intend to integrate public opinion into the studies that I'm currently running. Those studies will show evidence one way or the other, so part of my research is whether public opinion has stopped or encouraged people to learn how to grade from images.
It depends upon the quality of the images. Some are hopeless, and they can be of no use. Others are more accurate. Some must be interpreted. Overexposure is one way to hide marks and problems. I have learned that the hard way.
If you couldn’t grade from images, you could never buy anything off the Internet. You could never bid on an Internet auction. Personal examination and coin shows are the best, but unless you have a lot of time and a huge travel budget, you need to work with photos.
Al, In my opinion you learn how to properly grade coins in person.
Grading from images can only approximate that to some degree.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I say no, photos can be manipulated
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
I voted no but I buy coins all the time from images. I can return any coin I buy.
I think with many coins you can get around 70% accuracy.
This is where CAC is important also.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
I've done pretty well with pictures. Good pictures of course.
Depends on the image, depends on the coin.
This.
I voted Yes, because depending on the image I think I can get a fairly accurate depiction of the coin. I often screen coins I might do an in hand viewing this way.
And, of course, like many of us, I also buy on-line. Certain photographers are easier to determine a coins grade and conditional issues from than others.
Certain things like mirco hairlines and miniscule rub, quality and depth of luster, reflectance of fields, third edge issues and the like are VERY difficult from images.
Also, I think it is very important to know how to grade in-hand BEFORE you can fully transfer that over to doing it from images.
my 2c ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Even the best images can hide things like luster, hairlines, etc. So my answer is only partly can one grade from images and only the very best and accurate images……………..
It depends, for sure, but gun to my head as a generalization, my answer is "yes".
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“Standard for a "yes" vote is that an in person grader would not be noticeably more accurate than a person grading from images.”
You need to define “noticeably more accurate”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Factors of grades (2x easier to grade in person for example)
It also depends on the coin.
If the coin is borderline between AU and MS, good luck making a determination of that based on the photo, even a high resolution photo.
For G4 vs. VG8 or other circulated grades, quite likely to grade accurately with an above average photo.
A wag only. Final determination needs to be in-hand.
USAF veteran 1984-2005
Seldom! It's like 1 to 3 sellers out of every 1000 have the ability to accurately display their coins. There are very few out there with enough photography skills to accurately display the coins they're selling for max profits! One very annoying thing sellers do is not bother to turn the reverse side upright before taking a photo. Who wants to look at an upside-down picture of a coin? How loonie is that? They don't care to display a coin in its fullest state of quality, why should I bother looking at their coins....can't see anything anyway! Other annoying tactics; blurred shots, photo of coins too small. They take just one photo and from that they make a larger photo of the coin but it's the same photo! Take two, three angle photos of the coin, not just one! And then there are the sellers who take a picture of the slab only and post just that, an entire shot of the slab! OK, we get it, the coin resides in such a'such a slab.....take a close-up photo of the coin, will ya and get both sides!
Bad photography is one quick way to weed out the lazy uneducated, uncaring sellers from the lot.
The coins themselves will make people want to have/take accurate photos because they want the World to see/want/buy those coins if and when they're done with them!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Three in hand graders call a raw coin MS63, MS65 and UNC Cleaned.
Three photograph graders call it MS64, MS64, and MS65.
How are we defining accurate?
They're equally accurate in this case. UNC Details is thrown out since it's clearly inaccurate, so both sets of grades average to MS64.
Of course, good images can give you a good general idea of a grade, but hairlines, wheel marks, PL, DMPL and other attributes are much more easily determined with an in person examination of a coin. Consequently in person examination will be significantly more accurate.
Much easier to grade from a photo than just from a description, just stating the obvious. Also easier to grade from an enlarged photo for me than in hand without magnification since I’m no longer near sighted after eye operations.
Mr_Spud
Too many factors cannot be accurately discerned from a picture. There have been threads in the past which have highlighted this by slightly tilting a coin or moving the lights.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Videos that depict coins showing the effect of rotating them in light are an important innovation to supplement static coin images, for more accurate grading & surface condition evaluation.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
With proper quality images, I think you can be reasonably accurate on business strikes. I would have voted yes if the poll was specifically for business strikes.
I do not think you can accurately grade proofs from images.
Your question can be interperated in different ways.
Are you asking that if I look at an image in photograde then look at a coin can I grade it? Yes, I can grade it by comparison
or, are you asking me to look at a coin images and grade the coin from the images? Then, maybe, depends on a lot of factors.
My final comment. Early copper is one example of coins IMO that are nearly impossible to photograph properly. HA has two chain cents in their upcoming auction. Professionally photographed but too dark to adequately discern level of porosity. I won’t be able to view them in hand so I have to ask an experienced hand to look them over in OKC. To broadly state that one can grade from images and be reasonably close to correct is nonsense. When large sums of money turn on a single grade point or on whether a coin has been cleaned (e.g.) - close isn’t at all reasonable. IMO.
“Can You Grade From Images?”
Other than perhaps for circulated coins, usually, not accurately enough to provide good feedback and/or make important decisions. Those who believe otherwise, probably need to view a lot more coins in hand to see how much and in what ways they can differ from their images.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think that I can do fairly well for circulated coins up to XF or maybe low AU, but not for AU58 to mint state. But then again, I have not seen as many coins as most of you have graded, considering that I am a collector without a local coin shop, well I consider HA my local shop since it is only 180 miles away.
I can’t accurately grade from images.
I can’t accurately grade with the coin in hand.
I choose to not put in the time needed to get grading skills close to those of the people at the TPG’s and CAC.
As such, I don’t buy raw coins. I buy coins graded by PCGS, and if the coin is eligible for a CAC sticker, it must have one, so I know in CAC’s opinion, the coin is solid for the whole grade number on the label, and has not undergone a surface treatment acceptable to the TPG’s but unacceptable to CAC. But oftentimes, even that is not good enough for me! I then have a person who has access to the coin in hand a series of questions. Many times THEY tell me to pass, even if they work for the auction company selling the coin! That unbiased advice is invaluable! Between that scenario, and me not liking the eye appeal, I have passed on many hundreds of coins (if not over 1,000) that are in the grade I want, graded by PCGS, with a CAC sticker, and priced fairly!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I think you can grade better than you give yourself credit for Steve. Ultimately you are still grading the coin, just with the benefit of added input from all the resources you mention.
The reply by @rec78 wherein he mentions PhotoGrade softens my “No” reply. I believe that coins can quite accurately be graded from pictures in grades below the lower AU’s.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I can grade from images because I have looked at thousands of pictures and my collecting area is in the circulated range.
I would say it is a 50/50 proposition if the coins are AU/BU.
I wouldn't even try with proof coins. no way to judge miroors or hairlines. James
How did I learn the fundamentals of grading? The book “Photograde.” That says quite a lot about the issue.
As a first pass, yes. As many have mentioned above, there are variables pending confirmation. For example, hairlines from photos of proof coins can be hidden greatly impacting an accurate grade assessment.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Since you have to pick yes or no I’ll error on the side of caution, NO. I would rather pass on a coin I wish I had bought than buy one I regret buying, only one of those will lose you money. With that said I don’t always follow my own advise, sometimes I do want to take the shot.
https://www.pcgs.com/photograde
I still use it as well.
Excellent free source from our hosts.
You can provide an approximation or an estimate, but sometimes, issues are not captured in photographs, especially on proof coinage.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I agree with you on the Proof coins. You have to see those pieces live to buy them. I had to see all of the Proofs when I was assembling the Proof sets from 1936 to 1942.
I disagree on coins in the circulated grades when the pictures are high quality. Mint State pieces are harder. I would never buy something in MS-66 to higher from photographs.
It also helps that circulated coins are usually a helluva lot cheaper no?
Not always. Most any example of this coin will cost you 5 figures. The better ones are 6 figures. I did buy this one live at a Summer FUN show.
Would you have bought this coin from an image?
Anyone can grade from photos, it is practically a necessity today. That is not the question, the question is how accurate can anyone grade from photos. But there is no simple answer to that as it depends on many factors, how good of a grader is the one viewing the photos, how good are the photos, and more. And of course, grading is highly subjective to begin with; one person's AU is another's BU. Thats why guess the grade threads usually have a two point spread in the center of the curve.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Maybe. If you can't buy coins from images, you can't buy on the Internet. That includes retail sales and auctions. If I had to buy every coin from a show or a store, I'd be well back from where I am now with my collection.
At the time I bought this piece, I wanted to find a VF, but this one is graded Fine-15. It was the best I could find and afford. I wanted one that was similar to my 1796 Quarter, but the quarter is much more common. This 1796 Quarter is now in a PCGS VF-25 holder. I bought it raw 40 years ago.
That doesn’t address current grading scales for mint state and Proof coins, when trying to grade to an accuracy of a single point (or even two points). And that’s a major portion of the grading universe.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You had best not go too far with this issue. A lot of your employer's revenue is dependent on selling coins at auction based upon Internet pictures. If all the bidders had to see the coins before they bid on them, you employer would lose a lot of bids, and lots could sell for less.
Well said. I was very comfortable as a kid grading circulated coins and pretty good at judging whether a coin was an “unc” or not. Modern grading is far more difficult for me, at least among the higher uncirculated and proof coins. And, the whole details thing makes me very leery buying a raw expensive US circulated coin from an image. I am pretty comfortable choosing among graded coins with great images. For a collector, learning to grade is more learning to best recognize a properly professionally graded coin. Sort of like a multiple choice quiz vs. Jeopardy.
The mention of Photograde is an important one. I have that book along with at least 12 other grading guides. Plus another dozen specialty guides.
I have also bought and sold several hundred coins. Those coins are in archives online and i can compare. I also have dozens of actual coins on hand. I can also use them for comparison purposes.
I have also been online looking at coin pictures almost daily for 30 years. Collectors do not exist in a vaccuum.
Honestly. if i can't grade from a picture at this point maybe I SHOULD have taken up golf. james
Most images from reputable auction houses are of very good quality. As another poster said, it really depends on the image.
I buy/bid from photos all the time, but ONLY with a return privilege. For a really expensive coin (5 figures and up), I'd
probably want to see the coin in hand. If you want to build your collection, you have to utilize images unless you can
travel extensively to shows and see them in person.