Does CAC cut slack for rare coins.
JimTyler
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This PCGS AG3 CAC 70-CC 25c looks like it has an engraved line around part of the portrait to me.
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JimTyler
Posts: 3,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
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I certainly hope not, like many of the TPG companies have been doing for it seems years. Giving special treatment to rare coins and straight grading them. I count on CAC to hold the line.
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
Definitely cleaned and not the best way.
For an 1870-CC quarter in AG-3, it is pretty nice. A lot of these are plagued by corrosion because of the nearly pure silver composition.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The 1933 Saint is a MS64 so yes.
My Saint Set
The coin is NOT CLEANED! Mr. T has made the obvious scratch damage visible. Note how the scratch continues into the rim from the foot. IMO, CAC did not miss it so obviously this rare coin got a break.
I’m not seeing the cleaning - definitely or otherwise.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Definitely scratched.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I don't see any sort of cleaning but I definitely see a scratch at the bottom right side of Ms. Liberty's gown extending into the rim...
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Looks to be nice, original and well-circulated coin gray surface to me… might be that, in CAC’s eyes, the positive attributes of the coin outweighed the obvious (and intentional) old scratch that outlines much of the central device. My $0.02…
I've seen CAC forgive a small staple scratch here and there, especially if the coin was slightly under-graded. However, OP's coin looks like intentional damage that should be considered graffiti with a details grade IMO.
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No
Great topic, OP. I've wondered about this 1795 $10 MS65+ CAC for a while. If that's a partial hole below the eagle, I don't think this coin should have been straight graded or stickered but maybe it's a mint flaw.
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Definitely NOT even remotely cleaned in any detrimental way.
I believe that the effect seen on the coin is from someone who outlined the figure with a ball-point pen. The ink is long gone, or never transferred to the coin surface in the first place.
The tips on these pens are quite hard and capable of making a rolling trough across the coin surface without actually scratching it.
This seems to me to be yet another case where a coin gets a pass on damage and marks because it has (mostly) original surfaces.
The current "preference" in grading is to heavily penalize any type of cleaning or non-originality, while forgiving rim dings, scratches, heavy bag marks, etc.
But in my opinion this has gone too far. A nice-appearing coin with few marks and a past light cleaning is preferable (to me) compared to an original-looking coin that has extensive scratching or a gigantic bag mark on it.
In the current market place a border-line damaged and ugly coin, that is otherwise original, will often sell for a much higher price than a lightly-cleaned "pretty" piece. I would personally go for the prettier one (and save money) every time.
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The subject coin is well worn… issues such as those described seem to part of the territory. I don’t see a details grade here as changing much. It’s worn and rough which is to be expected.
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Coin would have done just fine slabbed. Sticker hurts credibility more than helps the coin. If that coin was cracked and submitted 10 times would it come back 10 times no problem slab
I don't think this coin should have stickered.. I have seen other early bust material that stickered and should not have also. Just an opinion.... Hard coin to find..
If that is true, I've lost respect for CAC. Ignoring tooling (which i despise) is not acceptable.
Agree wish it wasn't stickered, but also agree it would probably get a clean grade of AG3 most of the time. Not to offer excuses, but that first photo is at least 50X's the size of the quarter - see how many quarters will fit into that photo. The close ups probably > 100X's magnified. Graders use a 5-7X loupe. Is it obviously traced with the right magnification, yes but in hand without any magnification probably looks ok for an AG3.
Low grade coins like that have a lot of problems including old scratches. Cac's main concern is customers who paid a big premium who want to invoke the guarantee. But the hobby isn't necessarily "democratic". Cac can stand up to those who complain about a particular coin disagree with them.
Heads up - this coin appears to be for sale by a dealer member on the BST.
Well then this thread is poor form
Paradime
Does CAC cut slack for rare coins.
Irrespective of the coin in question, my answer is no.
I don't think it's unfathomable the CAC didn't closely inspect the outline of the bust, it is a lot smaller than the pic we're seeing here not sure how many graders are pulling out their loupe for an AG3. I would like to think it was an "oopsie", rather than an intentional endorsement of a tooled or otherwise manipulated coin. If it were my coin, I would send for review or call them and ask about it.
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Looks like for the grade (AG3) it would not make a diff, to me, imho.
But I'd like to just mention, @JimTyler 's subject line had me thinking, as a general rule I don't believe it's correct to give slack for anything altogether. For me it is a colossal turnoff.
If a rare coin is lacking, why bump it up a grade or two? It has its own feet to stand on already being it is special, rare if you say so, and so forth.
Why would slack be OK versus a generic example?
If that's the case, then the grades are all perverted, and if so, trust is lowered, greatly.
If it looks over graded or "got special" treatment it would be a total turn off for me.
Rarity should never be a grading factor. A 1909-SVDB cent or a 1955DDO cent should be graded using the same standards as would be used to grade a 1958 cent.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall . What is and what should be are two different things. At least in my lifetime, that is the way it has always been. Case in point; many years ago I was putting together a XF/AU set of Standing Liberty Quarters. I spent years trying to find an actual 1927-S Quarter in XF. The first one (buy sight unseen those days) I bought was from a major dealer and barely had enough detail to be a VF. I returned more than a half dozen coins to various dealers and at one point a prominent dealer in STD Qtrs named J.H, Cline told me that 95% of all 27-S coins labeled as XF were below that grade. Even rock stars like Mick Jagger don't always get what they want. James
That coin is #1 on my worst coins ever stickered list. Shouldn't even be straight graded with that tooling.
100% some rare coins are favorable at CAC. Just saw a coin yesterday with significant damage in a wide open field (had me question why it even straight graded at PCGS), and it green beaned.
This is not a one time event but I do see CAC lenient on specific rarer types, while remaining strict on others.
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Even rock stars like Mick Jagger don't always get what they want. James
He does get what he needs tho.
I have been griping about Rarity Points for decades.
Agreed, a tooled coin like should not get a straight grade if common coin of the same type (say 1870 Philadelphia) get a details grade. I would think an astute buyer would price it as it it were a problem coin.
@PeakRarities nailed it.
It's quite possible that CAC and PCGS both just missed the graffiti here, but rare coins do sometimes get passes from TPGs that common coins would not.
Photos from Heritage and Mike Byers.
If the coin “was cracked and submitted 10 times would it come back 10 times no problem slab “:it sounds solid for the grade, so likely worthy of a sticker.> @TrickleCharge said:
Did CAC sticker the straight-graded coin? If so, it’s not apparent in the picture that was provided.
And what’s the nature of the graffiti? Thanks.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As long as people are grading / evaluating coins, errors will be made. If it's a one off, I don't think this is a big deal. If you see a pattern, that's another matter.
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Apologies, my post was meant to indicate that PCGS and CAC may have missed the graffiti on the OP 1870 25c piece. Separately I was addressing the fact that rare coins are given leeway sometimes when it comes to numerical grades by showing the gold buffalo example.
That's my fault for not making that more clear initially and I hope this clears things up.
Thanks very much.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
PCGS does have a designation for such a coin:
peacockcoins
Item shown as sold on Paradime website.
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I'll never believe that the professionals at PCGS and CAC missed the damage. IMO - again, they let it slide.
Mr. Carr may be correct about the pen. I scratched up a few coins just now with one - even a nickel which is harder than silver.