Someone Did Well On A Columbian Half In A Short Period Of Time
TomB
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I don't know how I came upon this coin, but I bookmarked the results a while ago and thought it would be interesting to share it with the boards.
On December 30, 2020 HA sold a PCGS MS64/CAC 1892 Columbian half with toning on both sides for $420. A few months later this same coin came up on the same venue (HA), but graded NGC MS66*/CAC. The coin sold on April 25, 2021 for a whopping $3,000. Both prices include BP. Neither auction lot received any write-up to fluff up the price and both coins sold with very similar quality images. Interestingly, both coins had a green CAC sticker to indicate that CAC thought the coin was solid or above for the grade as MS64 (PCGS) and also solid or above for the grade as MS66 (NGC). Note that I am not throwing shade at CAC for this, but instead calling out something obvious in the listings and acknowledging that no person, grading service or grading standard is perfect or even perfectly consistent.
Regardless, the coin sold again on HA so quickly that it is very possible that the buyer at $420 was the seller at $3,000. They did well! Images and links are below-
Comments
I enjoy seeing examples of big rips like this. Probably happens more often than you think, and proves the fluidity of grading.
Of course, the 80% of coins the seller probably took a loss or broke even on aren’t readily available for our spectating.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
That’s a nice Columbian that I like a lot more at the original price but understand the second result given the new grade.
I’ve seen similar upgrades multiple times for toned Morgans at GC. Toners (that aren’t obviously undergraded) seem more ripe for upgrades given the possibility of getting a color bump if the “right” grading team sees them.
Cool turn over 😎
Cool find.
It looks brighter/prettier to me in the later photos, which might have helped,
Although the grade change was probably the bigger factor.
Do you have an estimate of when it was first graded, based on the first slab type?
Like @U1chicago mentioned, I have seen similar grade increases for nice toners,
when they were originally graded many years ago, when toners did not sell for as much.
The graders have been following the market price on toners.
From the photos of the coin (especially the top photo in this thread) it appears to me that the bust of Columbus (the cheekbone, the jaw, the chin, the top of the forehead extending back towards the hairline, portions of the hair, the upper lip, the nostril and other places) are darkly toned, cover marks/dings on the coin and are not attractive. The appearance of the coin in the upper photo does not translate to MS66 for me and maybe not even MS64.
The lower photo does not show these same areas as being so dark, thus to me the eye appeal is better.
It would be interesting to see this coin in hand.
The toning on the obverse is fantastic, aside from the spot before the chin. Don't know if I really see the coin as a 66, appears to have plenty of minute chatter
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The coin does not warrant an MS66*/CAC grade
IMO
That’s an experienced grader at work.
Very well done, and the market clearly agrees with both grades.
Coin Photographer.
I would agree with @SanctionII on this coin. It looks good in the images but my experience with toned coins tells me it is most likely darker and that the images are flooded with light and show the color at just the proper angle. Unlike the OP I will throw some shade at CAC because the coin can't be a green sticker in both holders and be correct. Either they missed it the first time or they missed it the second time, take your pick.
I think the coin looks closer to an MS64 no sticker then an MS66* with a sticker.
@TomB I like your Colombian better (that I once bought from you and you reacquired).
This one above is a 65 in my book.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
So why didn’t this coin get a gold bean from the start?
I don’t see an MS-66 here. I see a rub on the portrait. Look at the forehead and the hair detail in back of it. The first obverse photo shows too many marks on the portrait and in the field for a MS-66. The reverse is not outstanding at all. I have an MS-63 graded one I like better.
Really nice coin
Not being a CAC aficinado, I wonder that they certified both grades. Hmm, curious.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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Now I hope the new buyer cracks it and sends it to PCGS for a 67! But not be greedy sending it to CAC for a third time.
I wonder if it was a "crackout" and submitted to NGC?
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The standards for commemoratives seem be applied rather loosely ,as best as I can tell. In summer seminar grading class, we were taught that when you have a gemmy commemorative, you basically start at MS-66 mentally, and work your way down even up from there. This is further supported by the number of gold stickered commems, which is plentiful compared to most other series.
If it were a regular issue series the "white" grade would seem appropriate at 64 imo, a pretty solid 64, but I can see a color bump to 65 on this one. I'm uninspired at Ms-66 personally, like others in this thread have opined.
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From the images, which are all I have to go by on this coin, I don't like it as an MS66 and I don't think I like it as an MS65, either. The obverse is tick-marked enough to give me pause and the obverse spot by the portrait is definitely negative for eye appeal. The reverse has those two prominent carbon spots on the sails as well as a fairly noticeable fingerprint.
If I saw this coin in an MS64 holder I would likely think "okay, but I bet they want a lot for the color...". However, from the images, anything at MS65 or above would just have me thinking "no...".
My guess is that the coin was submitted to PCGS as a regrade and then off to NGC when the regrade did not result in the desired result. I think this because the original PCGS cert number associated with the coin in the first HA sale is inactive, which would happen if it were sent in the slab to PCGS as a regrade.
I also don't like the CAC determination of a green sticker at MS66, but again I have not seen it in-hand. Regardless of if I have seen it or not, CAC green stickered the coin at both MS64 and MS66 and that is obviously not a good look. As mentioned, I'm rather okay with the inconsistent CAC designation on the coin because I view the sticker process as somewhat similar to the grading process and we have all seen two-point swings within the same TPG for coins. That is why I wrote above that there was no shade or hate at CAC for this as no one is completely consistent.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I highly doubt it was a two point crossover upgrade, so a crackout sounds like better than a 95% probability. And considering it was resold in an NGC holder, there’s no need to wonder whether it was submitted to NGC.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There might be no inconsistency on this coin whatsoever by either PCGS, NGC or CAC.
What if, hypothetically, the coin was cracked out of the PCGS 64 holder, professionally (and very successfully) conserved and then resubmitted to NGC and CAC- where it received the 66* grade and another CAC sticker? Both grades and both stickers might be totally consistent under this scenario.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
I'm not seeing the conservation. While possible, it would be mighty helpful if you could point out areas where the coin was conserved.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In theory, sure. But the coin doesn’t look as if it was conserved. And even if it was, I don’t see where any flaws were removed in the process.😉 So, although it pains me to do so, I must conclude that CAC was inconsistent. And while I’m at it, I think NGC graded it too high.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Different lighting, or may have just changed the D lighting settings for the image. Yet another reason I (or someone I trust) needs to see a coin before I consider buying it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Mark, as usual, you are being beyond tactful.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I don't think coin has been conserved, just hit with different levels of light for the photos. And 66 is laughable.
@TomB said: I think this because the original PCGS cert number associated with the coin in the first HA sale is inactive, which would happen if it were sent in the slab to PCGS as a regrade.
Once the coin was graded at NGC either raw or as a crossover the submitter would have the insert which could have been returned to PCGS. They could then have deleted it.
That's a possibility, too, but I don't know how many folks actively do that, especially with a coin so generic as an MS Columbian half.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Very attractive coin IMO. I remember watching a whole interview video with J. Albanese on youtube where he discussed the topic about the grading services giving grade points for pretty color and that he does not share that practice, and will not 'bump' grades for coins with nice toning unless the coin pretty much stands on its own merits. In other words, he was not going to sticker coins that have received a 1-2 point bump for nice color which looks like the case here based on the pics.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
LOL with you
PCGS 64 and 62 respectively but both are reflective so they picked up extra ticky tact marks. Interesting part is they both came out of SEGS 63 PL holders from his table many years ago
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Threads like this are good if for no other reason than to show us that what CAC offers is no different than what any other TPG offers, an opinion which may/may not be correct and which may/may not remain consistent over time.
It highlights the importance of learning how to competently grade.
Cac is a dealer service to add value and maximize inventory and a market preference indicator for Inexperienced and experienced collectors alike. I’ve always said the collectors grade is the only one that matters for appreciation, The third-party graders opinions and holders are indicators of value and liquidity. One can agree or disagree but pricing starts with the combo on the capsule
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
@Crpto said: CAC is a dealer service to add value and maximize inventory
That may be what the initial conception was purported to be but not what CAC morphed into, and rather quickly. To a great many collectors/dealers, especially at the top of the market, they became the final arbiter of what a coin’s true grade is. Now, and this is just my opinion, CAC has reached their true objective by becoming an actual grading service.
The original grade of 64 was correct.
Don’t confuse the markets acceptance with the company’s market station. The hardest thing to engineer in resale is buying enough material with enough margin and a ready market. That’s why so many play the crack out and doctoring game as it’s hard to buy nice coins cheap and hard to market cheap coins. Buy creating a niche where a coin is worth more with than without, it provided an Ave for dealers to up-rate their inventory. Their standards are what legitimized their market perception and the universal adaptation is what opened the door for the grading service but that will only pan out long term if customers continuously pay more for CACG coins than PCGS holders like for like grade.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
If I submitted that coin, it would probably grade 91.
Darker areas along the cheekbone from rub or stacking disqualify it as a 66 for me. I see a lot of chatter about CAC but how a coin can be a 64 and a 66 and once again no one is skeptical. I guess as long as we identify ourselves as the likely "first" buyer of this coin , and that bitcoin will go to a million, there is plenty of hopium in the pipe to go around.
Commems and Early Type
All great coins deserve a name… I’ll call this one “Scuffy” or “Columbian Bar Fight.”
Grading is subjective…and we are only grading the image and not the actual coin.
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