Wheel marks can be really tough to see in-hand and devilishly difficult to capture an image of in order to share.
If you are asking about the area I have outlined in blue in your image then my first impression is that if they are limited to this area and if the entire area around it doesn't have any luster change then they are simply a patch of hairlines. However, if the area they are in has a discernible difference in luster when the coin is rotated then they could be what are termed wheel marks.
The diagonal pattern of spotting on the coin, going essentially from 10:00 to 4:00 on a clock face and looking like grey rain, would be what I would simply call water spots. Again, this is based entirely upon your image and nothing else. This type of spotting wasn't unusual for Peace dollars in the 1920s or for ASEs in the 2000s, but I am not certain how commonly WQs are found with it.
@TomB said:
Wheel marks can be really tough to see in-hand and devilishly difficult to capture an image of in order to share.
If you are asking about the area I have outlined in blue in your image then my first impression is that if they are limited to this area and if the entire area around it doesn't have any luster change then they are simply a patch of hairlines. However, if the area they are in has a discernible difference in luster when the coin is rotated then they could be what are termed wheel marks.
The diagonal pattern of spotting on the coin, going essentially from 10:00 to 4:00 on a clock face and looking like grey rain, would be what I would simply call water spots. Again, this is based entirely upon your image and nothing else. This type of spotting wasn't unusual for Peace dollars in the 1920s or for ASEs in the 2000s, but I am not certain how commonly WQs are found with it.
Yes that's correct, the circled area. I was concerned about the wheel-marks, I have been researching on them, initially I wasn't sure what they were since they are hard to spot at times and require the right light and angles. Is this something that would get a details grade if sent in? The Quarter has incredible luster and is stunning. I've attached a video to better show it. You can see it towards the end of the clip the hairlines.
If there is a better way of sending videos let me know (Wouldn't Let Me Upload a file)
You've got a lot of glare in the recording right along Washington's cheek, which is the area where you have questions. From what I could see the coin does not have what I would call wheel marks. It might be easier to illustrate them if you lessened the glare, moved the coin more slowly and rotated it with respect to the light source. By rotating it with respect to the light source I don't mean simply moving it around, but rotating it at least 90-degrees in each direction. That kind of rotation can highlight wheel mark damage.
From what I can tell this coin would straight-grade, but I have to warn you that I don't view its grade as high as you apparently do.
@TomB said:
You've got a lot of glare in the recording right along Washington's cheek, which is the area where you have questions. From what I could see the coin does not have what I would call wheel marks. It might be easier to illustrate them if you lessened the glare, moved the coin more slowly and rotated it with respect to the light source. By rotating it with respect to the light source I don't mean simply moving it around, but rotating it at least 90-degrees in each direction. That kind of rotation can highlight wheel mark damage.
From what I can tell this coin would straight-grade, but I have to warn you that I don't view its grade as high as you apparently do.
Gotcha, ok now im better understanding wheel-marks. What is it about the coin that makes the coin not worthy of a higher grade? Few scuffs on the bust maybe? Still trying to understand. It has great luster, I was thinking around MS66?
New Question, Do Die Cracks Limit a grade on a Quarter? If the Quarter is in Great Shape Yet has Die Cracks? (Streak on the obverse is some sort of toning/film maybe from old tape. Not Wheel-Marks)
New Question, Would this 1947-P Get a Details scratch for the cheek slight hit/scratch? One of my better quarters, I think it could get a 67 or higher when compared to others of similar grade. I attached below another which is an MS68 that has hits for reference not details.
@DaRigMan04 said:
New Question, Would this 1947-P Get a Details scratch for the cheek slight hit/scratch? One of my better quarters, I think it could get a 67 or higher when compared to others of similar grade. I attached below another which is an MS68 that has hits for reference not details.
No, your coin shouldn’t receive a detail grade for the mark on the cheek. It’s not even a close call. However, at the same time, I don’t think it would grade 67 or higher. It can be misleading to compare an uncertified coin to a graded one in trying to arrive at an estimated grade. If you’re going to do so, at least use a large sample size. The pictured 1947 example was almost certainly the beneficiary of a bump in grade, due to its color.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@DaRigMan04 said:
New Question, Would this 1947-P Get a Details scratch for the cheek slight hit/scratch? One of my better quarters, I think it could get a 67 or higher when compared to others of similar grade. I attached below another which is an MS68 that has hits for reference not details.
No, your coin shouldn’t receive a detail grade for the mark on the cheek. It’s not even a close call. However, at the same time, I don’t think it would grade 67 or higher. It can be misleading to compare an uncertified coin to a graded one in trying to arrive at an estimated grade. If you’re going to do so, at least use a large sample size.
Ok got it. I'm still trying to understand what is seen on the coin that doesn't make it a 67? Based on the reference of other Quarters of the similar grade, a clear field and little hit marks on the bust and reverse. What is it that you guys see that I don't that makes it not worth a higher grade? Is there something I am missing. I think the only problem on it is that scratch that may lower the grade.
@DaRigMan04 said:
New Question, Would this 1947-P Get a Details scratch for the cheek slight hit/scratch? One of my better quarters, I think it could get a 67 or higher when compared to others of similar grade. I attached below another which is an MS68 that has hits for reference not details.
No, your coin shouldn’t receive a detail grade for the mark on the cheek. It’s not even a close call. However, at the same time, I don’t think it would grade 67 or higher. It can be misleading to compare an uncertified coin to a graded one in trying to arrive at an estimated grade. If you’re going 9to do so, at least use a large sample size.
Ok got it. I'm still trying to understand what is seen on the coin that doesn't make it a 67? Based on the reference of other Quarters of the similar grade, a clear field and little hit marks on the bust and reverse. What is it that you guys see that I don't that makes it not worth a higher grade? Is there something I am missing. I think the only problem on it is that scratch that may lower the grade.
This is simply my opinion - I’d grade the coin lower than 67 due to the mark on the cheek, marks on the lower right portion of the neck, spots near the obverse border at approximately 9:00 and multiple marks on the reverse.
Also, for videos, I recommend that you tilt and rotate coins much more slowly than what I saw in the one above.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@DaRigMan04 said:
New Question, Would this 1947-P Get a Details scratch for the cheek slight hit/scratch? One of my better quarters, I think it could get a 67 or higher when compared to others of similar grade. I attached below another which is an MS68 that has hits for reference not details.
No, your coin shouldn’t receive a detail grade for the mark on the cheek. It’s not even a close call. However, at the same time, I don’t think it would grade 67 or higher. It can be misleading to compare an uncertified coin to a graded one in trying to arrive at an estimated grade. If you’re going 9to do so, at least use a large sample size.
Ok got it. I'm still trying to understand what is seen on the coin that doesn't make it a 67? Based on the reference of other Quarters of the similar grade, a clear field and little hit marks on the bust and reverse. What is it that you guys see that I don't that makes it not worth a higher grade? Is there something I am missing. I think the only problem on it is that scratch that may lower the grade.
This is simply my opinion - I’d grade the coin lower than 67 due to the mark on the cheek, marks on the lower right portion of the neck, spots near the obverse border at approximately 9:00 and multiple marks on the reverse.
Also, for videos, I recommend that you tilt and rotate coins much more slowly than what I saw in the one above.
Understood. This is why I referenced the MS68 I sent TV of. Its probably the toning that bumped the grade but it does have a decent amount of hit marks.
Here is the finest example I have thus far. Continuing my search to cherry-pick them. Also took note of the slower movement to show the coin off. Thank you.
@DaRigMan04 said:
Here is the finest example I have thus far. Continuing my search to cherry-pick them. Also took note of the slower movement to show the coin off. Thank you.
You’re welcome and that looks like a much better speed on the video.
The obverse of the coin appears to have considerable light colored streaky areas, which will probably negatively impact the grade. My guess is that those areas are the result of toning that was etched into the con’s surface and removed to the extent possible.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@DaRigMan04 said:
Here is the finest example I have thus far. Continuing my search to cherry-pick them. Also took note of the slower movement to show the coin off. Thank you.
You’re welcome and that looks like a much better speed on the video.
The obverse of the coin appears to have considerable light colored streaky areas, which will probably negatively impact the grade. My guess is that those areas are the result of toning that was etched into the con’s surface and removed to the extent possible.
It seems to potentially be as a result of maybe tape over it? I could always dip it. It seems to have been that way for a long time. I thought maybe it would be more positive than negative since it makes it look I guess abit more aged or original in someway.
The hit on the 1947 WQ is trivial and that would not preclude a straight-grade on that coin. It would grade each time and every time. However, you are far more optimistic about the grades of some of these coins than I am as I see that coin as perhaps a generic MS66.
Now that I have seen the video I like it more, but I might have vertigo from the incredibly fast rate you rotated the coin. I would suggest to rotate the coin at about the same speed you would do so if rotating it while looking at it through a loop.
@TomB said:
Now that I have seen the video I like it more, but I might have vertigo from the incredibly fast rate you rotated the coin. I would suggest to rotate the coin at about the same speed you would do so if rotating it while looking at it through a loop.
I revised my form of videoing the quarters, I sent another of a better 1947-P that I have. I think that one has the best chance of getting higher than an MS66. Mark Mentioned regarding the streak on the obverse, I believe it could be toning due to old tape or some sort of residue. I could if I wanted dip it to get rid of it but not sure. (Not Wheel-Marks)
Do you see the diagonal lines going all across the coin from approximately 10:00 to 4:00 o'clock? They start in the fields, travel up over the devices and aren't really visible when you held the coin straight to the camera and light. You can also see how they stop abruptly at IGWT and start again afterward. This is what a wiped coin looks like and you should keep the coin to familiarize yourself with this type of manipulation and so that you can spot it in-hand.
New Question! Does the quality of a quarter and the grade it receives vary based on the year? For Ex. Higher Grade Quarters in the 1960's there are far few due to not as many perfect coins, survival & very high mintage. I Saw this MS67 1962-D and I was trying the wrap my head around how this received a MS67 grade with so many hit marks, even in the field.
I did the same thing you were thinking about - I sent in what I thought were my best quarters out of my raw collection I had purchased 30-40 years ago. This was the result:
In hand both quarters are super lustrous and clean appearing. I thought they might have a chance at 67. womp womp. Both came in at 66 - but since I paid just over melt for them originally, I consider that a win.
@DaRigMan04 All three of the examples you posted look a tad overgraded on the technicals (number of hits), but the quality of luster plays a big role in grading and can get a coin bumped a half or whole grade. In those cases, the coins will be less likely to earn CAC approval as CAC is strict on the technicals ("abrasions").
Wanted to share an Update to everyone who took the time on this thread to help me out with Questions and what to look out for when Determining grades for Washington Quarters. Today PCGS Officially "Received" them as in put the coins in their system to prepare to grade them. Will Share Updates when the time comes! Fingers crossed! Here's the list of Quarters Submitted. This is my first submission of coins ever for grading! Fun little experience picking the best Quarters/Toners!
I scratched the 1964 Pictured below out of the Top List of Grading Candidates. Replacing it with a Frosty 1947-P and not pictured is a nice 1942-S ! I am really looking forward to seeing the TV of the Toned 1946-S. Really Hoping it is not AT!
So everyone is scrutinizing these coins closely but the graders factor in all these aspects in 3-5 seconds and arrive at a grade? Really? Does anyone see a problem with this?
@stockdude_ said:
So everyone is scrutinizing these coins closely but the graders factor in all these aspects in 3-5 seconds and arrive at a grade? Really? Does anyone see a problem with this?
No and I doubt they take 5 seconds. LOL. When you have seen tens of thousands of coins you can quickly ascertain the grade. They do make mistakes though and they do go through eras of tough and lose grading.
@Matt04 said:
Wanted to share an Update to everyone who took the time on this thread to help me out with Questions and what to look out for when Determining grades for Washington Quarters. Today PCGS Officially "Received" them as in put the coins in their system to prepare to grade them. Will Share Updates when the time comes! Fingers crossed! Here's the list of Quarters Submitted. This is my first submission of coins ever for grading! Fun little experience picking the best Quarters/Toners!
I scratched the 1964 Pictured below out of the Top List of Grading Candidates. Replacing it with a Frosty 1947-P and not pictured is a nice 1942-S ! I am really looking forward to seeing the TV of the Toned 1946-S. Really Hoping it is not AT!
The 46-s isn't AT from what I can tell, the 64 looks like it might be though. I feel like this will be a good learning opportunity for you, but Id be shocked if any went 67. I've heard ms-70 can work well on the hazy ones like the 47, I'd always try a diluted sown version first though.
Comments
Wheel marks can be really tough to see in-hand and devilishly difficult to capture an image of in order to share.
If you are asking about the area I have outlined in blue in your image then my first impression is that if they are limited to this area and if the entire area around it doesn't have any luster change then they are simply a patch of hairlines. However, if the area they are in has a discernible difference in luster when the coin is rotated then they could be what are termed wheel marks.
The diagonal pattern of spotting on the coin, going essentially from 10:00 to 4:00 on a clock face and looking like grey rain, would be what I would simply call water spots. Again, this is based entirely upon your image and nothing else. This type of spotting wasn't unusual for Peace dollars in the 1920s or for ASEs in the 2000s, but I am not certain how commonly WQs are found with it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Yes that's correct, the circled area. I was concerned about the wheel-marks, I have been researching on them, initially I wasn't sure what they were since they are hard to spot at times and require the right light and angles. Is this something that would get a details grade if sent in? The Quarter has incredible luster and is stunning. I've attached a video to better show it. You can see it towards the end of the clip the hairlines.
If there is a better way of sending videos let me know (Wouldn't Let Me Upload a file)
https://imgur.com/dLJ4OgK
You've got a lot of glare in the recording right along Washington's cheek, which is the area where you have questions. From what I could see the coin does not have what I would call wheel marks. It might be easier to illustrate them if you lessened the glare, moved the coin more slowly and rotated it with respect to the light source. By rotating it with respect to the light source I don't mean simply moving it around, but rotating it at least 90-degrees in each direction. That kind of rotation can highlight wheel mark damage.
From what I can tell this coin would straight-grade, but I have to warn you that I don't view its grade as high as you apparently do.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Gotcha, ok now im better understanding wheel-marks. What is it about the coin that makes the coin not worthy of a higher grade? Few scuffs on the bust maybe? Still trying to understand. It has great luster, I was thinking around MS66?
New Question, Do Die Cracks Limit a grade on a Quarter? If the Quarter is in Great Shape Yet has Die Cracks? (Streak on the obverse is some sort of toning/film maybe from old tape. Not Wheel-Marks)
Die cracks, by themselves, will not lower a grade on a WQ.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Good to know. Thank you!
New Question, Would this 1947-P Get a Details scratch for the cheek slight hit/scratch? One of my better quarters, I think it could get a 67 or higher when compared to others of similar grade. I attached below another which is an MS68 that has hits for reference not details.
No, your coin shouldn’t receive a detail grade for the mark on the cheek. It’s not even a close call. However, at the same time, I don’t think it would grade 67 or higher. It can be misleading to compare an uncertified coin to a graded one in trying to arrive at an estimated grade. If you’re going to do so, at least use a large sample size. The pictured 1947 example was almost certainly the beneficiary of a bump in grade, due to its color.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ok got it. I'm still trying to understand what is seen on the coin that doesn't make it a 67? Based on the reference of other Quarters of the similar grade, a clear field and little hit marks on the bust and reverse. What is it that you guys see that I don't that makes it not worth a higher grade? Is there something I am missing. I think the only problem on it is that scratch that may lower the grade.
Video Link to the coin
https://imgur.com/a/YcV6o89
This is simply my opinion - I’d grade the coin lower than 67 due to the mark on the cheek, marks on the lower right portion of the neck, spots near the obverse border at approximately 9:00 and multiple marks on the reverse.
Also, for videos, I recommend that you tilt and rotate coins much more slowly than what I saw in the one above.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Understood. This is why I referenced the MS68 I sent TV of. Its probably the toning that bumped the grade but it does have a decent amount of hit marks.
Here is the finest example I have thus far. Continuing my search to cherry-pick them. Also took note of the slower movement to show the coin off. Thank you.
https://imgur.com/a/0BCbiTN
You’re welcome and that looks like a much better speed on the video.
The obverse of the coin appears to have considerable light colored streaky areas, which will probably negatively impact the grade. My guess is that those areas are the result of toning that was etched into the con’s surface and removed to the extent possible.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It seems to potentially be as a result of maybe tape over it? I could always dip it. It seems to have been that way for a long time. I thought maybe it would be more positive than negative since it makes it look I guess abit more aged or original in someway.
The hit on the 1947 WQ is trivial and that would not preclude a straight-grade on that coin. It would grade each time and every time. However, you are far more optimistic about the grades of some of these coins than I am as I see that coin as perhaps a generic MS66.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Now that I have seen the video I like it more, but I might have vertigo from the incredibly fast rate you rotated the coin. I would suggest to rotate the coin at about the same speed you would do so if rotating it while looking at it through a loop.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I revised my form of videoing the quarters, I sent another of a better 1947-P that I have. I think that one has the best chance of getting higher than an MS66. Mark Mentioned regarding the streak on the obverse, I believe it could be toning due to old tape or some sort of residue. I could if I wanted dip it to get rid of it but not sure. (Not Wheel-Marks)
Video:
https://imgur.com/a/0BCbiTN
Closeup Photo of Obverse:
1948-S I have, Im afraid that these hairlines are indeed wheel marks and will only get details?
https://imgur.com/a/jgyfcer
Looks cleaned; I wouldn't send it in.
In my opinion, the 1948-S looks like it might have been wiped. If so, the coin would not get a straight grade.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Do you see the diagonal lines going all across the coin from approximately 10:00 to 4:00 o'clock? They start in the fields, travel up over the devices and aren't really visible when you held the coin straight to the camera and light. You can also see how they stop abruptly at IGWT and start again afterward. This is what a wiped coin looks like and you should keep the coin to familiarize yourself with this type of manipulation and so that you can spot it in-hand.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
New Question! Does the quality of a quarter and the grade it receives vary based on the year? For Ex. Higher Grade Quarters in the 1960's there are far few due to not as many perfect coins, survival & very high mintage. I Saw this MS67 1962-D and I was trying the wrap my head around how this received a MS67 grade with so many hit marks, even in the field.
Ex. 2 MS67 1962-D
Ex. 3 MS66+ 1962-D
Wheel marks are damage, so “no”.
I did the same thing you were thinking about - I sent in what I thought were my best quarters out of my raw collection I had purchased 30-40 years ago. This was the result:
In hand both quarters are super lustrous and clean appearing. I thought they might have a chance at 67. womp womp. Both came in at 66 - but since I paid just over melt for them originally, I consider that a win.
gotcha, thats why Im confused as to why those quarters got such a high grade.
@DaRigMan04 All three of the examples you posted look a tad overgraded on the technicals (number of hits), but the quality of luster plays a big role in grading and can get a coin bumped a half or whole grade. In those cases, the coins will be less likely to earn CAC approval as CAC is strict on the technicals ("abrasions").
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Wanted to share an Update to everyone who took the time on this thread to help me out with Questions and what to look out for when Determining grades for Washington Quarters. Today PCGS Officially "Received" them as in put the coins in their system to prepare to grade them. Will Share Updates when the time comes! Fingers crossed! Here's the list of Quarters Submitted. This is my first submission of coins ever for grading! Fun little experience picking the best Quarters/Toners!
I scratched the 1964 Pictured below out of the Top List of Grading Candidates. Replacing it with a Frosty 1947-P and not pictured is a nice 1942-S ! I am really looking forward to seeing the TV of the Toned 1946-S. Really Hoping it is not AT!
now comes the longest 3-8 weeks ... good luck
Yup! Hopefully wont be too long. Thanks !
Being Imaged ! Update
Update. In QA, When do grades and TV usually upload?
usually 3-5 days and payment clears - good luck +++
the grades show first, then the True Views show to the right on that page.
I have had coins delivered to me a couple times before True Views show up.
Saw this piece up on Heritage. Trying to understand how a coin like this obtains MS68?
Wow factor can over come a few marks. Wow is something you will know when you see it. This is a wow coin.
So everyone is scrutinizing these coins closely but the graders factor in all these aspects in 3-5 seconds and arrive at a grade? Really? Does anyone see a problem with this?
No and I doubt they take 5 seconds. LOL. When you have seen tens of thousands of coins you can quickly ascertain the grade. They do make mistakes though and they do go through eras of tough and lose grading.
An interesting one:
Where's the No CAC for you button at?
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Bad dip job imo.
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Looks like AT to me.
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The 46-s isn't AT from what I can tell, the 64 looks like it might be though. I feel like this will be a good learning opportunity for you, but Id be shocked if any went 67. I've heard ms-70 can work well on the hazy ones like the 47, I'd always try a diluted sown version first though.
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