Grading Washington Quarters
DaRigMan04
Posts: 30 ✭
There seems to be a website Bug, I tried to edit a duplicated reverse photo for one of the coins and it showed an error and deleted my entire post!!
Hi Everyone! Long story short I have a handful of Unc Washington Quarters I accumulated over the past few months for melt. I'd love to use the free vouchers I have with PCGS to grade the best out of the bunch! Im coming on here to try and understand the grading process for Washington Quarters and how a quarter gets a MS66 vs MS67+... grade! From my Understanding Washington Quarters are graded a lot stricter versus other coins (I could be wrong). What are key things to look out for to try and decide which Quarters are best candidates for sending in. Share your thoughts! Thank you.
Example: MS67 PCGS Quarter with scratches on Obverse.
Candidates for Sending In:
1948-S Would PCGS Restoration do anything for the spotty toning?
1948-S (2)
1948-S(3)
1946-S
1945-P
1945-D
1945-D (2)
Honrable mentions:
1952 Rainbow Toner
1946
Sorry for those of you who answered. I Saw your Comments!
Comments
That’s quite a bug!
I’ve occasionally seen my own posts disappear, when making an edit. But I didn’t know that an entire thread could be wiped out. Sorry that happened to you and us.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yeah its really frustruating luckily I had copied what I shared !
Quick question, did you say the top two were the ones you thought were the best condition?
That bug has been around for a while - whenever you edit a thread, go in and command/control C the entire thing so if it disappears you can just repaste it.
I'm not seeing any quarters that I'd grade 67 in that group, besides the graded one.
Coin Photographer.
I was thinking any of the first three? But im trying to learn and understand why they wouldn't. Are their particular details you see that would make a grade think it isnt? Is it the luster/tone?
The first one has unattractive eye appeal and spotting issues, the second one has a cheek graze that just holds it back (this one could be close to 67), and the third one has grazes in several areas that should keep it from 67 as well.
Coin Photographer.
From what I can see, I think your three best coins are the second and third 1948-S examples and the 1946-S.
And in answer to your question about the first 1948-S in your earlier post, I wouldn’t do anything to it.
Your posts give me the impression that you’re really wanting to submit some of these coins and I wouldn’t count on them being worth the cost of submission.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yeah maybe ill keep looking around for better ones to submit. I have 4 free vouchers with pcgs and Im trying to start a MS67+ Washington Quarter Collection Pre65. Would be cool to have submitted one for my collection.
Thank you!
Howdy and welcome.
Your best coins, in my opinion, are your second 1948-S followed by the 1946-S. You would be wasting money on conservation of the first 1948-S as I don't think the coin is high enough in grade and also don't know if the spotting could be removed well enough while still leaving a blasty, lustrous surface beneath. Regardless, PCGS conservation is notoriously slow and expensive and for most coins I doubt they do more than a common dip. The quality of photography is all over the map for the coins in question, but I would not be shocked if the third 1948-S and the 1945 came back as AU58. As for the two toned coins at the end...just don't think about them.
The example coin in a PCGS MS67 holder is far and away the nicest coin in the group, from what I can see, but my impression is that you used this one as an example only and that you don't own it. Lastly, I strongly disagree with your assessment that WQs are graded more strictly than other series. I have been specializing in WQs, as well as other niche areas, for over three decades and they are graded just like any other series. Each TPG (NGC, PCGS, CACG and "other") has its own proprietary grading standards that largely overlap but do not replicate the ANA standards and each coin is graded by humans and might or might not be a prototypical example of the particular grading standards in question.
Enjoy the WQ series and ask away regarding questions. Good luck!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Based on the images, your best bets to send in are the 1948-S, 2nd and 3rd ones, and possibly the toner despite the strong fingerprints- the toning might be nice enough to ease the blow. Luster becomes a bigger factor from mid MS grades and higher. The other coins look like lower mint state grades,
Understood. WQ's I have a special place for, I really like them! I shared that example that I found on PCGS while trying to understand higher grades like MS67 because of how many scratches and dings there were for the higher grade piece. Im trying to understand how one like that would get a higher grade VS the Second or Third 1948-S. Also you said AU58 for the Third 1948-S I don't see any wear?
Regarding Grading the only reason I said they are stricter was since I think I read somewhere since so many WQ's were produced and I assume many have been sent in to be graded they are tougher on which coins get higher grades. But I was wrong and it makes sense across the board for everything to be identical in the way coins are graded. Regarding photos I will definitely be working on that! The First Two & Last Two WQ's were shot with my Sony A7IV, although not with the proper lens. I'd love to start photographing my coins, probably need a macro lens though or I can use a magnifine filter or something ill need to figure that out. Thanks for your insight and help!
It's always good to have another person who adores WQs. If you haven't found it yet, please take a walk over to the WQ thread on the PCGS Registry board and take a look at some of the coins and/or discussion. That thread has been active since mid-2014 so some images (and people) have disappeared in the intervening decade. The thread currently has over 1,700 comments. I have added a link to the first page of that thread directly below-
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/920300/washington-quarter-registry-thread/p1
Please take my comments or interpretations about your coins as what they are and they are simply interpretations. I don't have the benefit of the coins in-hand and can only go by what I see in the images and how I interpret what I see. The comment about the third 1948-S might be far off, but the coin appears rather lackluster in the images (it could absolutely be from the photographic conditions) and coins that look really clean, but devoid of luster can also be coins that have very minor amounts of wear and might get slabbed as AU58.
I liked the image you shared of the PCGS MS67 1946 better than the other coins not because of hits or marks, but because of the fabric of the coin. I have been using that phrase "fabric of the coin" for decades, but mainly in in-person discussions, and at this point a few well-known graders are also using the term. What I mean by this is that coins aren't graded simply by absence, presence or amount of wear and they aren't graded by adding up the numbers of hits or marks. Rather, they are graded by the absence or presence of wear, the amount of any given wear,;the severity, placement and numbers of marks and the total amount of metal moved by those marks; the cleanliness of the fields and devices; the presence, completeness and/or originality of patina or toning or luster; and the overall eye appeal of the coin. I'm certain I have left things out or perhaps duplicated others, but this is written off the top-of-my-head.
The PCGS MS67 looks to have really clean fields, completely intact patina, likely good luster underneath the patina and few really distracting marks. It absolutely have hits and whacks and nicks, but we are talking about an MS67 here and not an MS70. The way the services grade at that grade level makes me not surprised this coin received an MS67, but I would be really surprised if it went MS66 or MS68. It appears to fall within the grade window nicely. Please note that this is all based upon interpretation of one TrueView composite.
The glass ceiling for 1932-1964 WQs is currently grading higher than MS68. A quarter century ago it was grading higher than MS67, but at that time there were no + grades given out by the TPGs, either. Receiving a gem grade (MS65 or higher) is really pretty trivial in this series and what today is an MS68 was most likely an MS67+ fifteen years ago or an MS67 twenty-five years ago.
Again, it is good to have another WQ fan!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
You have to have a lot of experience in grading to distinguish a 66 from a 67, especially from photos. Here are two I submitted raw, one is a 66 and one is a 67. Take a guess which is which.
ill take a guess and say the 34 is the 66 and the 47 is the 67. They might favor the toning for higher grade from what I've heard. But I could be completely wrong.
ill take a guess and say the 34 is the 66 and the 47 is the 67. They might favor the toning for higher grade from what I've heard. But I could be completely wrong.
If I had to guess, I would not know which coin to choose for each grade since the white balance is different between the two images. Regardless, you bring up a good point about toning and that is that when toning has what is considered "good eye appeal" that coins from all series typically get the benefit of the doubt with respect to a higher grade. I call it a toning grading bump. Of course, "good eye appeal" is subjective, so not everyone agrees which coins have good eye appeal.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Tom is correct in the white balance being off. The 34 is white with a nice original skin on it. It graded 67. The 47D does have nice color and it graded 66.
Based on the images provided I think it’s as or more likely that the 1934 has been dipped than that it has “a nice original skin on it”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I> @MFeld said:
It's my photos, I think I took these photos over 10 years ago with an old Nikon digital camera. That's why I mentioned it's difficult to grade within 1 point from a photo, especially mine.
I'd like to mention two things that I think many of us know intuitively, but that perhaps not everyone has thought about. This is especially true for newer collectors to a series or numismatics in general.
The first is that as the numerical grade goes higher the grade window gets smaller. This is especially true for the 60-70 grade range. What I mean is that the grade window for a "properly" graded MS65 will be slightly larger than the window for an MS66 and this will be slightly larger than the window for an MS67 and so on. Therefore, grading from images gets more and more difficult.
The second might be thought of as a bit more metaphysical, or at least a bit more quantum mechanical. That is, any assigned grade simply represents a single grading event at a single point in time from a single TPG. This grading event is comprised or two or three professional graders who will independently look at the coin for 3-5 seconds each, typically with little or no magnification, and will assign a grade. These professional graders are trained to grade according to the standards of the TPG that employs them and they are tasked with grading according to the current standards of that TPG. Grading standards at TPGs can and do change over time and they will oscillate from more conservative to more liberal and back again as well as change with respect to what is a desirable look and what might be questionable to place in a problem-free holder.
These professional graders also typically have many years experience outside of the TPGs and their personal grading standards may differ somewhat from the TPG, but they are hired hands (and eyes) and perform their jobs as best they can since they, too, are graded by the quality of their output. Therefore, while a TPG-assigned grade is a static and unchanging event for the coin, the actual grade of the coin may change at that TPG if another data point is obtained. In other words, just because a coin grades a certain grade now, doesn't mean it will grade the same later. Most coins will, but not all coins. This, of course, leads to what can be an extremely profitable business opportunity in grading arbitrage, but relatively few can master that course.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Just want to shout out @TomB for sharing some serious knowledge in this thread. The “like” button isn’t fully adequate for the quality of his posts above. Tom has forgotten more about grading and WQs than I know. Thanks Tom!
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
@TomB makes a habit of superlative posts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I just got this 1939-D MS65 Quarter for $46 on Ebay. It sold on HA in 2014 for $80! Might be worth of sending back in for a 66 or just getting a new holder.
Have you checked to see what 66’s sell for compared to 65’s? The upside isn’t significant and an upgrade doesn’t look like a solid proposition.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Pretty prominent pock mark on George's cheek for a 66 and the luster looks a tad muted.
Eh I haven't really looked into the value, I do like the newer holders with the authenticiy chips and everything. It might be worth a risk of trying? Not sure it is a nice looking coin though with solid luster.
Snagged this slight rainbow toner earlier 1958-D MS66, would like to get some more toners!
I didn't read the comments in the thread so im not sure if it was recommended, but in my experience PCGS conservation is nothing special and it takes quite a bit of time. Personally, as much as I like original surfaces, the eye appeal of several of those quarters is far too negative to offset grading costs. I'd get a bottle of e-zest on amazon and dip them on my own, that's the same thing PCGS would do and there isn't much downside...
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I was actually just looking into getting e-zest. Only problem is I fear coins if I do clean and send in will come cleaned. Is it traceable? Not sure how to go about doing it.
No, many many coins that are straight graded, and many with CAC stickers, have been carefully restored at some point in their life. There is a big difference between cleaning, and restoration. What you are aiming to do is the latter. If you dip them too long or fail to rinse them properly, then they could be considered "cleaned". You just dip it in very brief moments, followed by a rinse under the sink. It's easier to just take some ugly pocket change and practice with those, it's not difficult at all.
Here's a video by Ben the coin geek explaining the process-
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Is that the HA photo of the coin? The coin in the EBAY photo looks darker and seems to have some surface issues. Did the coin go bad in the holder
Yes those photos are from HA. It could've gone bad but it might just be the lighting of the photos
One tangent I'll add because it's always been a pet peeve of mine is that the grading vouchers don't equate to free grading--you paid for them by paying for your membership. Sure there's no additional monetary outlay (other than shipping), but if you (the general you) are submitting because you have vouchers rather than getting a membership and vouchers because you have coins to submit, I'd posit that you're likely on the losing side of the value proposition.
Of course, in the end you are paying for them but I think what I spent for the vouchers was well worth it. For PCGS I spent $249 for the Platinum which provides 8 Vouchers for Regular or Gold Shield Service. The Price for Each coin with Regular service is $40. 8 Coins x $40 = $320 so I am saving by doing it in this manner if I wanted to grade anything in general. I just really love Washington Quarters and I think its worth the risk to send in the best ones I have and hopefully get a grade that would make it well worth it. I mean you never know. By creating this discussion page I wanted to understand what to look out for and to understand how to determine which Quarters were worth sending in and in general for future reference if I want to add onto my Quarter collection.
Can you please post pictures when you receive the coin
I will of course
For me, the hardest part is nuance of the strike and the quality of details.
Easier to grasp in some series and tougher in others.
That will get you from 66 to 67
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
With the exception of a few San Francisco issues, I haven’t noticed a wide variance in striking quality in silver Washington quarter. Yes, some issues come softer, but luster is a much sharper dividing line between 66 and 67 for these coins, in my experience.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Note that there is nothing on Washington's neck in the HA photo - I suspect something is going on in the slab.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
I> @PeakRarities said:
Question have you done anything with MS70 ? Wondering if thats something good to get too and coins get graded that have had it used?
A little update I am still compiling coins I want to get graded. I just got this 1937-P in today, its in good condition. Even in lower MS I think it might be worth sending in. The Reverse is in solid condition, the obverse has some sort of outline of tape that might've been on it at some point, tried using acetone didn't remove it. Gonna wait until my ezest comes in to clean it. My only concern is I noticed a streak of scratches only to the right of Washington in the lower right corner would this get a cleaned grade? Also a little damage on the rim. It also doesn't have much luster its very light.
Could you please point out the "streak of scratches" and attempt to capture an image of them? I see the nick on the rim at 3:00, but that seems trivial. However, what are the series of dots next to the 7 in the date? I have outlined these in red. Also, is Washington's neck depressed at its base? I have outlined this in green. Lastly, there are a series of hairlines preceding Washington's receding hairline (see what I did there?) and I wonder if there are more that we cannot see. I have outlined these in blue.
Overall, this image needs more light.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Ah...it appears you added another image while I was editing and typing. The stuff in the green and red outlines appears to be tape residue. This might or might not easily come off. Regardless, even in gem MS65 a 1937 WQ isn't worth all that much money.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Yeah I think I might just keep this one for my WQ 1932-1964 non slabbed book or thinking of getting one of those capital displays. I got this and two other 1930's WQ's for a good price so I was happy with the condition this 37 was in. They sell in similar on ebay for 30-40$
Also gonna have to bare with these photos for now ha until I properly setup my camera and try to photograph coins properly. I know they suck.
Your images aren't all that bad at all, it's just that if you ask about something that we can't really see in the images then our answers will much more likely be rather useless.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson