Dealers that are collectors.
Coinobsessed
Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
I know several copper dealers that formed their own collections. Jim McGuigan had a great half century collection. He was very open that he was always looking out for his collection first. Doug Bird, Tom Reynolds, Col. Ellsworth, are all dealers who also formed their own collections. I can think of some other dealers outside of copper who also collect. As a collector are you ok working with the dealer if he discloses that he is competing with you. Of the above dealers I really only worked with Jim. I was fine with Jim and dealers that disclose what they are doing. If he doesn’t disclose is this a conflict with the of interest? I guess it depends on if you are just buying from them or are you are looking for them to act as an advisor to help build your collection. My semantics may be off but I hope people can understand what issue I trying to bring up. Looking for discussion.
Comments
My assumption is that pretty much all dealers have a personal collection of some sort. I have yet to meet one who did not when the topic arises.
As one example, check out The Penny Lady's personal collection here:
https://thepennylady.com/coin-category/charmys-indian-cents/
https://thepennylady.com/coin-category/charmys-lincoln-cents/
Have never met a collectible that wasn't cool to own but eventually easy to sell.
It is a mindset to be sure.
Has she always collected errors?
It would be interesting if Rick and Charmy and even Bonser chimed in given they deal in the same area.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Coin dealers who are also collectors have a quandary: their own personal collection is going to be eating part of their profits. You need to be a very large, very prosperous coin dealership to be able to afford the luxury of buying all the best coins that come across the counter for yourself.
Many coin dealers I've been acquainted with have gone the other way: they start out as collectors, then decide to become a coin dealer, using their collection as their starting inventory. Most such dealers stop being collectors themselves at that point, as they simply can't afford to withhold potential inventory.
I also know one dealer who absolutely rejects coin collecting for himself. He's the son of a coin dealer, so learned the ins and outs of the trade from an early age, but has no personal attraction to coins himself (as many of us have no doubt discovered, coin collecting is not a hereditary disease) and sees coins purely as a means of making profits.
A coin-dealer-who-is-also-a-collector is not really "competing with you". Any coin they want to keep for themselves, they'll never put into inventory, so you'd never see it. The coins you see for sale are the coins they don't want, or have decided they can't afford. As for selling, well, I can only see benefits in selling to an also-a-collector dealer, as they might be prepared to pay you a higher price if they actually want one of your coins for themselves.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
A close friend of mine who was a dealer told me a good bit of advice. If you are really going to build a great collection, you must buy and sell. Otherwise, you will never have the money you need when the opportunity arrives for that perfect purchase. With that I now have some coins I never thought I'd have.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
if they want it for their personal collection, would they put it for sale. if you are competing with them on top pops, aren't the just another collector?
Collectors should never be dealers and dealers should never be collectors.
I was a collector long before becoming a dealer. I still keep a few coins as a collector, most of the stuff that comes in locally, I would not keep anyway. In years past, I would bid at auction, and buy from other dealers, shows the stuff I wanted to own/keep. But after stretching and stretching , and when it came time to sell or part with, it was a tuff road, just to get your original purchase price back. So this time around, I keep a cool coin or two that I get from dealing, and when i want to sell to get another, its easier to sell it for a profit. I do still bid on coins and look at shows to purchase things I want, but not as much. And being in business for many years now, I get better material in at times than just being a mom and pop dump shop
Why?
I sold lots of coins that were better than the pieces in my collection because I could not afford to keep them. One of the advantages to having a collection was that it kept my grading eye in line. After spending a day looking at a lot of over graded stuff, it was good to go back and see when the proper grades were.
When I upgraded a coin my collection, the displaced pieces went straight to inventory. They often sold at the next show.
Some collector - dealers used their holdings to write important numismatic books. I don’t the harm in mixing the two,.
I really liked Jim McGuigan‘s style and inventory. Especially hus early 19th century circulated silver bust coinage which I still have.
As a collector it is fine if you sell coins.
You can even sell at a profit and you may sell as many coins as you want.
You might even set up tables at coin shows, even the national shows.
You should never be a dealer though.
Remain a collector. Stay in your lane.
As a dealer it is fine if you gather coins.
You can even organize them into albums and such. Add as many coins as you want. You might even purchase coins with the intent of never selling them.
You should never be a collector though.
Remain a dealer. Stay in your lane.
?? Any reason you say this? I think just the opposite, any good dealer would be such an enthusiast of the things he/she is dealing, that they can't help but save aside some special stuff for themselves.
Edit: just saw your reply above, it amounts to "stay in your lane". Not much clarity added there.
In the words of the Fugio cent…”Mind your Business”
Latin American Collection
dealers also act as buyer's agent at auction to represent a buyer that in some cases wants another set of professional eyes and in some ways get the anonymity of a post-auction private sale transactin
so, that dealer you see bidding might be an agent for a collector. i only mention it to remind those who need reminding. i imagine you know this already
Some dealers price their coins as if you are prying them from their personal collection.
http://ProofCollection.Net
The first thing I gave up when I became a dealer was my collection.
That makes little sense. You are saying it's okay for a collector to act like a dealer but just don't call themselves one.
And you still haven't supplied a reason. There are occasional conflicts in being both. But as long as you are aware of them and manage them, there is NO PROBLEM.
So....?
I repeat. Why? All you do is tell me what I should do. “Stay in my lane.” Why?
I know I don’t want my ribeye cooked by a vegan…
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I see nothing wrong with a dealer being a collector, as well. The nice thing is that once they fill a hole, In their collection, then all other examples are fair game and can be sold. If you’re a larger dealer, it’s pretty easy to do that. I would say.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I have a close personal friend who is a dealer. He stopped collecting coins a long time ago. From his perspective every coin has a price (and that probably applies to most if not all of my coins).
One of the finest dealers on this forum is Mark Feld. Ask him if he is also a collector.
Russ Bega of Harlan Berk has a personal collection. There are also some young up-and-coming Youtubers who are doing quite well as dealers. They have stated in their videos that they put some coins aside for their personal collection.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
He collects AGREEs, LIKEs, & LOLs
I've collected many types of things and I deal in many more. I also frequently start new collections, some of which I quickly abandon, and others that I stick with for a long while. This approach allows me to play with items far beyond my area of expertise, things that I wouldn't touch if profits were my sole objective. Which sounds like a ridiculous way to run a business, but the knowledge gained in exploring these new frontiers as a collector has made me a better dealer. Works for me, anyway.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You have yet to put forth any valid argument as to why.
Mark is not a dealer any more, now he is the finest Numismatist/ Consignment Director.
How many coins would one need to own to be considered “a collector”? 1? 5? 20?
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
A form of backward integration in the sense that you (a dealer) are potentially competing for material that a collector customer may be interested in purchasing. That is why some dealers will not or profess not to be collectors - IMO that is a promotional sales pitch, and somewhat effective.
This is America, free market principles and all that, IMO is not an issue for me, others may find it unseemly, but is perfectly ethical and legal. Many great collections and accumulations from dealer/collectors transpire, preserving items that would otherwise end up in attics or safe deposit boxes, lost to history or the uninformed heir.
Thank you for your very nice comment.
When I had my own dealership, I made a decision not to collect coins at the same time. However, that decision was relatively easy, as I hadn’t been collecting for several years, anyway.
Additionally, although I chose not to deal and collect at the same time, I wouldn’t advise others not to do so. Potential conflicts can arise and need to be handled with integrity. But it’s certainly possible for both the dealer and his customers to experience enjoyment and success.
I also feel that if a dealer is collecting, it better enables him to see things from the collector’s/customer’s point of view and can make for a better dealer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thank you.
But gosh, I thought I was still a dealer.😮
Although I’m a “consignment director”, I spend much of my time buying and selling coins, doing some coin write-ups, advising clients, working with marketing, providing auction estimates and screening auction lots for clients. What can I do to become a dealer? 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, I would sell anything I own at some price. But if the price is ridiculous, I keep my mouth shut. No reason to make myself look stupid, greedy or both.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
My inventory is my collection basically plus I am not some dumping ground for Drek.
I price items to sell, move quickly (of course in the green) not have as a coin museum. Lately been chasing CC Dollars PCGS or CACG.
I can think of many reasons why a dealer might give up collecting but am curious about your personal experience if you’re comfortable sharing the why.
I'm not sure whether @MFeld would consider himself primarily a "dealer" or not. We might ask him. Mark has worn many hats
But if you are looking for anecdotal evidence, EVERY dealer I know also has a personal collection.
1- Allow me to quote the leading expert in the field, Mr. Feld:
" I wouldn’t advise others not to do so. Potential conflicts can arise and need to be handled with integrity."
2- This statement is so blantantly false so as not to necessitate a need for a response.
I would wager as soon as you posted it you regretted doing so.
3- You can't call yourself a Vegan and eat McDonalds Quarter Pounders.
You can't call yourself a Dealer and collect coins.
A dealer once told me when I first started that I shouldn’t love my coins or I’d never sell them. So I started loving my customers and decided to serve them instead . Hence, just about every coin and collection I’ve dealt with has gone back to collectors or other dealers. I can’t take the coins with me when I go and my children and grandchildren think it’s ( the coin world) the dumbest thing ever.
Until I opened the shop , I didn't realize I should have got a SCRAP METAL sign.....
I literally had a comment exactly to this effect 95% typed but I got distracted by something else. Everything has a price, but the value to me far exceeds what would be reasonable in relation to the market. When those two figures start to converge, and I can re-home it with a nearby, deserving collection, I’ll let it go. Otherwise I would make myself look goofy, and I’d have to change my name to “Peak Rarities Wholesalers”, or something like that.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
My my, you’re not easy to please, are you? I thought it would be considered an upgrade going from “one of the finest dealers” to “The Finest Senior Numismatist/ Consignment Director”, but pardon me. 😜
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Sarcasm doesn't really suit you.
You are generally much smarter than that.
“Sarcasm is the intellectually poor man's cheap imitation of wit.”
I have not quoted you in case you choose to now edit your response.
In my defense, I did say “Thank you.” And then (and only then) did I throw a little hissy fit.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Of course that’s a fair reason, but it can be easily diffused (though I’m not going to explain it in depth here). I was curious if there was anything else besides that.
Bottom line is that since I’ve became a dealer, I handle things differently so that conflicts don’t arise in the first place, and clients needs take first priority. Though I don’t think that means I should automatically have to disperse my collection acquired prior to becoming a dealer, several coins that I had never considered selling if you had asked me a year ago, have found new homes…when I felt that it was “time” to let them go.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I dealt coins part time for several years about 20 years ago, but it was really just a way to fund the beginning of my current long term collection. It was fun at first, but when I sold too many at the same time it became a chore and wasn’t as much fun. I was mainly buying at local coin shows and selling on eBay and Overstock.com and the packing up of the coins and shipping them off was the chore part for me. I stopped dealing when I moved from Charlotte to California and lost most of my local dealer connections and also because I was too busy at my day job.
You can do both, for sure, but it becomes a full time job if you expect to sell lots of coins. I haven’t sold any coins at all in over 15 years except for bullion which I just take to the local coin shop whenever I need extra cash to fund buying coins for my Type Sets and one sample slab in response to a “want to buy” post here on the BST forum.
But when I retire in a year or so I plan on selling off duplicates and coins I own in order to fund the continuation of my Type Sets. I don’t see any conflicts in doing that. But I don’t think I’d like being a full time coin dealer where I would need to sell enough to make a living because it would turn something I enjoy as a hobby into a chore.
Mr_Spud
We're still waiting for a single reason. Exposition doesn't suit you.
Not really sure what you’re talking about or who you’re talking to, there was no sarcasm in my response to you. You should have quoted, as it allows for better communication. I don’t see anything I’ve written that needs editing. I am however, going to quote you now.
Not it’s not, you’re nitpicking semantics as you know what I meant and my point still stands. If someone were to ask me who Mark is, my answer would not be a “Coin dealer”, as much as I wish it was, in spite of the fact that he performs all of the same functions better than the vast majority who I would describe as such. I would wager that you are the minority here, by a long shot.
Those two completely unrelated examples directly contradict each other, and it makes no sense. Again, the single best argument (that you failed to make on your own, I might add) can be easily avoided in multiple ways. Now what, got anything else?
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Your quote of Mr. Feld actually is opposite to your point. He WOULDN'T advise others to NOT do so. @MFeld I'm sure he regrets the double negative. But his comment supports but dealers wearing both hats.
Odd...
Allow me to disagree, as follows:
1) I’m not the leading expert in the field.
2) Even though conflicts can arise when a dealer’s also a collector, that doesn’t mean he can’t call himself a dealer. It means that (as I mentioned previously) those conflicts need to be handled with integrity.
The bottom line is that if a dealer’s determined to treat his customers right, he can do so, even if he’s also a collector. And if he doesn’t care about treating them right, his not being a dealer isn’t going to matter, anyway.
Edited to add:
I apologize for any confusion I caused by using a double negative in writing “I wouldn’t advise others not to do so.”
I knew it was a double negative, but feeling pressed for time, didn’t look for a better way to say it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Interesting.
Apparently it suits you just fine.
I’m invoking your prior statement about sarcasm. Hungry much?
Well said,
boston
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date