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Researching rarity with AI...
MrEureka
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Has anyone had much luck with AI in building a census for specific coins? At some point, it should be possible to pull up all auction records, have AI match duplicate appearances of the same coin wherever possible, and come up with something approaching a census for any rare coin, even if thousands are known.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Most of what I’ve seen from AI has been wrong. So I no longer look at AI-generated results.
It’s still typical Silicon Valley hype at this point.
Edited to add the following: The old saying is as true as it’s ever been. Garbage in. Garbage out. And a great deal of “knowledge” on the internet is “garbage.” That garbage is training AI.
I've been trying to work with Grok, but there's still too many limitations. I think It will be useful for cataloguing purposes, general background info, rarity and mintages, auction descriptions, but I've only been able to get so far.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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Here's an example of what I normally can pull from it-
Can you tell me what you know about the Baldwin $10
25 web pages**
The Baldwin $10 coin, often referred to as the "Horseman" or "El Vaquero," is a notable piece from the California Gold Rush era. Here's what is known about this coin:
Design and Origin: The coin was minted by Baldwin & Co. in San Francisco during the California Gold Rush, specifically in 1850. The obverse of the coin features a cowboy (vaquero) on horseback with a lasso, with the inscription "CALIFORNIA GOLD" and "TEN DOLLARS." The reverse displays a federal-style eagle surrounded by the text "BALDWIN & Co." and "SAN FRANCISCO," with five stars on each side. The design of the cowboy was inspired by an 1828 watercolor painting titled "Californians Throwing the Lasso" by Frederick William Beechey, reflecting California's Mexican heritage during the Gold Rush period.
Rarity and Value: This coin is extremely rare, with fewer than 20 believed to exist today. The condition of the coin plays a significant role in its value; for instance, an example graded MS63+ sold for $1,260,000 in November 2024, highlighting its significant numismatic value. The rarity is due to both the low mintage during the Gold Rush and the low survival rate of these coins.
Restrikes: Around the turn of the 20th century, restrikes of this coin were made using similar dies, created in various metals including gold, silver, copper, brass, lead, and white metal. These restrikes are also collectible, with some being extremely scarce. They differ slightly from the originals, for instance, having plain edges instead of reeded ones.
Historical Context: Baldwin & Co. was one of several private mints operating in California during the Gold Rush because of the need for standardized currency when official banking systems were not fully established. This coin represents not just a piece of currency but a snapshot of the cultural and economic dynamics of the time.
The Baldwin $10 gold coin is thus both a historical artifact and a collector's dream, valued not only for its scarcity but also for its artistic depiction of the American West and its connection to the Gold Rush era."
Founder- Peak Rarities
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In your opinion, what are some of the other pioneer gold issues with the most historical significance?
"Here are some other pioneer gold issues that are considered to have significant historical importance:
Mormon $5, $10, and $20 Gold Pieces (1849-1860):
Historical Significance: Minted by the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City, these coins were produced to alleviate the shortage of coinage in the Utah Territory during the Mormon migration. They represent a unique blend of religious history and economic necessity. The $20 coin, in particular, is one of the rarest with only a few known examples.
Templeton Reid $5 and $10 Gold Pieces (1850s):
Historical Significance: Made by Templeton Reid in Georgia, these coins were one of the earliest private gold issues in the United States, predating the California Gold Rush. They are significant for showing private minting efforts in the South before the Civil War.
Augustus Humbert $50 Gold Slug (1851-1852):
Historical Significance: The largest gold coin ever officially struck for circulation in the U.S., these "slugs" were minted by Augustus Humbert in California during the Gold Rush. They represent the peak of private minting before the U.S. government stepped in with official coinage. Their size and rarity make them highly sought after.
Christopher Bechtler $1, $2.50, $5 Gold Coins (1830s-1840s):
Historical Significance: Produced in Rutherfordton, North Carolina, by Christopher Bechtler and his son, these were among the earliest gold coins minted in the United States. They are significant for illustrating the early private minting of gold in the South, well before the California Gold Rush.
Norris, Gregg & Norris $5 Gold (1849):
Historical Significance: This coin was one of the first private gold issues from the California Gold Rush era, minted in San Francisco. It highlights the immediate entrepreneurial response to the discovery of gold and the need for currency in the rapidly growing town.
Clark, Gruber & Co. $2.50, $5, $10, $20 Gold Pieces (1860-1861):
Historical Significance: Minted in Denver, Colorado, before the U.S. Mint took over, these coins are significant for their role in the economic development of the Colorado Gold Rush. They also represent the transition from private to federal minting in the West.
Dubosq & Co. $5 Gold (1849):
Historical Significance: One of the shortest-lived private mints in San Francisco during the Gold Rush, Dubosq & Co. produced this $5 gold piece which is rare and emblematic of the rapid turnover and speculative nature of early minting operations in California.
Each of these issues not only serves as a testament to the gold rushes and the entrepreneurial spirit of the times but also illustrates the private sector's role in currency during periods of governmental absence or delay in providing coinage. Their rarity, combined with their historical narratives, makes them highly significant in the study of U.S. numismatics."
What can you tell me about the Templeton Reid $25 gold coin?
25 web pages
The Templeton Reid $25 gold coin is one of the most enigmatic and rare pieces in American numismatics. Here's what is known about it:
Existence and Rarity: Only one Templeton Reid $25 gold coin is known to have ever existed. This coin was minted in 1849, during the California Gold Rush period.
Design:
Obverse: The coin features the words "CALIFORNIA," "TWENTY FIVE," and "DOLLARS," with "GOLD" at the bottom.
Reverse: It displays "TEMPLETON REID . ASSAYER . 1849" around the coin's edge.
Historical Context:
Templeton Reid originally gained fame by minting gold coins in Georgia in 1830, but the $25 coin was produced much later, likely using gold from California. There's debate over whether Reid personally went to California or if the coin was made from California gold without him actually being there.
The coin was part of an experimental or speculative minting effort, possibly to capitalize on the burgeoning gold rush or to establish another "first" in private minting.
Current Status:
This particular $25 gold coin was stolen from the United States Mint Cabinet Collection on August 16, 1858, and has never been recovered. Its whereabouts remain unknown, leading to numerous theories about its fate, including the possibility that it was melted down for its bullion value or is still in private hands.
Speculation and Interest:
The coin's rarity has led to significant speculation and interest within the numismatic community. It's considered one of the holy grails of American coin collecting due to its unique status as the only one of its kind ever produced.
There have been numerous searches and even rewards offered for its recovery, with PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service) offering $10,000 for the first submission of this coin for grading and authentication.
Replicas and Restrikes:
Given its fame and the fact that it's lost, replicas or fantasy pieces have been made, often as tokens or souvenirs. These are not the actual coin but are intended for collectors who want a piece reminiscent of this legendary coin.
Value:
If ever found, this coin would likely be one of the most valuable in existence due to its singular nature, historical significance, and the story of its theft and disappearance.
In summary, the Templeton Reid $25 gold coin is not only a numismatic rarity but also a piece of American history, symbolizing the adventurous and speculative spirit of the Gold Rush era. Its theft has added a layer of mystery and allure, making it a subject of continuous fascination and speculation in the world of coin collecting.
In summary, I think it's fantastic for aggregating facts and information and can save so much time for research if you're in a hurry. It tends to give broad, general information and avoids being too speculative or opinionated. I'm a fan!
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The LLMs will certainly have the data and the ability to provide the inquiry highlights represented above by @PeakRarities. There is also the ability for deeper analysis of pop reports, auction archives, and any other data available to the LLM (that is one of the keys - what data is included).
These LLMs can also learn over time as additional data is available. However, all LLMs are subject to "hallucinations" which is an industry term for incorrect responses. All AI and LLM queries should have a HITL (human in the loop) step to validate results before any automated publication or guidance for actions.
Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set
successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), DesertMoon, Downtown1974, Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Proofcollection, Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)
I have had luck in using AI to find examples in building census (the 1794 West Indies 3 Gulden) and our past project on the 1777 Greenland Dollar.
The key is in asking specific questions...
"Which museums have examples of the 1777 Greenland Dollar" -
"Does the National Museum of Denmark have a Greenland Dollar" - Copilot returns a helpful answer while ChatGPT is garbage.
I keep using it and testing the questions to find the best means of getting a meaningful response.
Latin American Collection
That wb nice if AI could give rarity consensus (based on pop data) on slabbed coins and graded banknotes, especially world. It could be around the corner for all I know.
You were too easy on him, he posted a ridiculous comment.
Best application for AI is still grading. Data analysis will be prone to bias and lack of context.
I’m still adjusting to artificial flavors.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody.
For me, reading AI-generated text is like eating empty calories - it doesn't really give me what I need.
I have not used AI myself. What would impress me is if AI could look at this image and determine who the maker was and what the logo means:
I think the majority of people's interactions (probably a higher percentage of people on this board given the age demographics) think that AI is basically the eBay computer written auction descriptions.
Take what @jmlanzaf said about protein structures and apply it to basically every field that requires repetitive technical expertise or the need to parse large amounts of data.
AI is already in use and is changing our lives and economy (probably for the worse IMO but that is a much longer and unrelated conversation). Anyone who thinks this is only hype is either not paying attention or doesn't know what they are talking about.
EDIT: Here is an AI response to pruebas' criticism:
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
"AI isn't perfect, but dismissing it outright ignores its real advancements in fields like medicine, finance, and education. Garbage in, garbage out applies to any tool—it's up to us to use AI critically and responsibly, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater."
You said:
let's start over.
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
Sure! Here's a concise and pithy response:
"AI isn’t flawless, but it’s far more than just hype. While garbage data can lead to bad outputs, modern AI excels when used with high-quality input and critical oversight. It's a tool—not a magic wand—and dismissing it entirely overlooks its real potential."
You said:
I want a short, pithy, and mildly sarcastic response
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
"Ah, yes, because dismissing all AI based on bad examples is clearly the pinnacle of critical thinking. Tools are only as good as how we use them—AI included."
You said:
i would like a dismissive and rude response
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
"Got it—AI's the problem, not the user's inability to understand how to use it. Makes perfect sense."
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I got a better idea. How about AI does an image search and answers his questions if it's really supposed to be so great.
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I haven't tried that. I'm not familiar with how to go about doing that.
But I would be impressed if AI could find other instances of this logo and lead to the identity of the maker.
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I've manually looked for images that contain this logo. But there are billions of pictures out there on the internet. So I can only check an extremely small fraction of them. If an AI tool could do pattern matching for this logo across billions of images, that would be extremely useful of course.
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They can and do but unfortunately there's nothing out there that matches it. I gave it a shot this afternoon but it couldn't find anything. At the same time I'm using a free consumer level version so maybe a more powerful one would be able to find something.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
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PS:
There are images of other bars on the internet with this logo (I found them using a traditional search). The other bars have "1970" inside the circle, but otherwise the same. Did your attempt using Google Lens find any of the "1970" images ?
Here is one of them:
https://worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-1970-mte-bell-troy-oz-999-3934212042
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There are also some images in this forum thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1082948/silver-bar-logo-what-maker
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I know you already found the vague references to MTE Bell, well AI was able to find that too if you ask the question the right way. This was with google lens and it allows you to add info like a question, but you also have to crop the image so it doesn’t focus on other things in the image. Like this
Mr_Spud
AI doesn't lend itself well to a census-style use case: that is more a job for a conventional structured database. Image recognition for exact matches, however, is beginning to be built in services like ACSearch's image recognition, CoinCabinet.io's pedigree search, and Ex-Numis which is human supervised but still able to find an exact match. These services are more ancients focused at the moment as varied flans are easier to compare to find the exact same coin.
That is called "prompting". Knowing how to prompt a GenAI tool determines how successful your prompt will be. "RICE" is a good structure to use.
R- Role - explain the role you want the AI to embody.
I- Instruction - Provide detailed instructions/guidelines for the AI to follow.
C- Context - Give the tool relevant context and background info to generate a response.
E- Example- include examples/instances so the tool can use it as a reference to create a similar output.