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8 Reales Pillars, post ‘em if you got ‘em

SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 14, 2024 3:17PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

I have one from each mint except for Columbia or Chile. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

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Comments

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SimonW said:
    I have one from each mint except for Columbia. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

    Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

    You have a Chile?

    Latin American Collection

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some really incredible stuff here folks!

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Plus00Vltra said:
    My favorite mint/run is Guatemala from 1768-1771. The die cutting was gloriously crude, replete with inverted letters, errors, and stopgap measures to compensate for the wear and tear on hand-me-down equipment from Mexico:

    Problems include:
    The S in HISPAN has a "stop" superimposed; also recognized as "S over Ƨ" suggesting an error in hand carving, although I am not sure about this, nor is Yonaka.
    The punch for the 1 in the date and and letter I was damaged and missing serifs by 1768 and the same continued into 1769.
    The three letters G are all different, the one on the obverse being made of a C and horizontal bar that do not touch.
    The 9 punch was damaged, and instead of inverting a 6 the die cutter inexplicably used an arc (from a C?) and a small o (from a smaller denomination?) to cobble together a makeshift 9, apparent as the two elements do not touch on this die.
    The coining press was falling apart to the point that a normal sized flan would not produce an even strike (apparent in 1768 and a few large-flan 1769 coins), so in 1769 minters produced a narrower and thicker flan, resulting in a design that ran off the edges; on this coin the devices almost fit but run into the scalloping of the edge device at 12 o'clock on the obverse and 3 o'clock on the reverse, also suggesting slight misalignment of the dies.

    This coin was my Rubicon. In the meantime looking for a large flan 1769...

    Nice coin and write up

    Latin American Collection

  • EddiEddi Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2024 12:21PM

    @SimonW said:

    @Boosibri said:

    @SimonW said:
    I have one from each mint except for Columbia. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

    Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

    You have a Chile?

    Only like four or five

    You have four or five Santiago Columnarios ? (!!!!)

    Would LOVE to see them, (please?)

  • TheGoonies1985TheGoonies1985 Posts: 5,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Eddi said:

    @SimonW said:

    @Boosibri said:

    @SimonW said:
    I have one from each mint except for Columbia. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

    Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

    You have a Chile?

    Only like four or five

    You have four or five Santiago Columnarios ? (!!!!)

    Would LOVE to see them, (please?)

    He was just joking.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 14,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

    I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

    Bolivia is deceptively hard.

    I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.



    I have a PCGS 65 1774 Bolivia 8 reales ...common date hoard but not easy in true 65 .....this is the Millenia speciman,

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • Plus00VltraPlus00Vltra Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    @fluffy155 said:
    All of my pillars are from Mexico City and most of them are NGC, but here are some of my PCGS pieces:

    Question for the assembled experts here: the letter P appears three times on the obverse of this fantastic 1738 Mo MF 8R. The last P in PHILIP is different from the other two, with scalloping on the lower end. Same story with the I and D punches in PHILIP and D∙G vs. IND.
    Is this an artefact of the impression of the die punch into the die, or two different die punches for the letter "P?" I assume it is the former case, likely as scalloping of the die punch would allow for better excavation of die metal, making a stronger impression. Too light an impression of the die punch would produce the scalloping, heavy impression would leave a typical blocky letter. Letters "P" have the same shape otherwise, with a deformed lower loop, more so on the scalloped P.

    Is this reasonable, or confirmed?

    I have seen the same on 1754 G J 8R and English VIGO coinage, so I assume it is a typical problem associated with die making transcending mint and nation, rather than "fancy" versus "plain" lettering.

  • Plus00VltraPlus00Vltra Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

    I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

    Bolivia is deceptively hard.

    I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

    Boosibri,
    Aside from your world-beater 1765 GP 8R in P64+ and 1764 GP 8R in P63, I am aware of a 1760 GP in N62, 1766 8R in P61, Two Ex Stuart 1768 GP 8R in N62 and N61, and a 1768 GP 8R in N64.

    Are there any other uncirculated Guatemalan 8R known to the hobby out there that you know of?

  • Plus00VltraPlus00Vltra Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    @Plus00Vltra said:

    @Boosibri said:
    I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

    I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

    Bolivia is deceptively hard.

    I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

    Boosibri,
    Aside from your world-beater 1765 GP 8R in P64+ and 1764 GP 8R in P63, I am aware of a 1760 GP in N62, 1766 8R in P61, Two Ex Stuart 1768 GP 8R in N62 and N61, and a 1768 GP 8R in N64.

    Are there any other uncirculated Guatemalan 8R known to the hobby out there that you know of?

    I could just check the PCGS and NGC condition census but that would be no fun, plus I am really wondering about the raw coins squirreled away in old European collections...

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Plus00Vltra said:
    Question for the assembled experts here: the letter P appears three times on the obverse of this fantastic 1738 Mo MF 8R. The last P in PHILIP is different from the other two, with scalloping on the lower end. Same story with the I and D punches in PHILIP and D∙G vs. IND.
    Is this an artefact of the impression of the die punch into the die, or two different die punches for the letter "P?" I assume it is the former case, likely as scalloping of the die punch would allow for better excavation of die metal, making a stronger impression. Too light an impression of the die punch would produce the scalloping, heavy impression would leave a typical blocky letter. Letters "P" have the same shape otherwise, with a deformed lower loop, more so on the scalloped P.

    Is this reasonable, or confirmed?

    I have seen the same on 1754 G J 8R and English VIGO coinage, so I assume it is a typical problem associated with die making transcending mint and nation, rather than "fancy" versus "plain" lettering.

    The scalloping you see at the base of some of the letters is a function of strike force and metal flow from the center outward toward the edges. Interestingly enough, Calbeto also cataloged these as a separate punch variety in his Compenidum. You can see it on top of the letters in the 1772 and 1773 dates where the assayer initials and mintmark were inverted to the rest of the legend, additionally supporting the metal flow assumption.


    8 Reales Madness Collection
  • Plus00VltraPlus00Vltra Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    @TwoKopeiki said:

    @Plus00Vltra said:
    Question for the assembled experts here: the letter P appears three times on the obverse of this fantastic 1738 Mo MF 8R. The last P in PHILIP is different from the other two, with scalloping on the lower end. Same story with the I and D punches in PHILIP and D∙G vs. IND.
    Is this an artefact of the impression of the die punch into the die, or two different die punches for the letter "P?" I assume it is the former case, likely as scalloping of the die punch would allow for better excavation of die metal, making a stronger impression. Too light an impression of the die punch would produce the scalloping, heavy impression would leave a typical blocky letter. Letters "P" have the same shape otherwise, with a deformed lower loop, more so on the scalloped P.

    Is this reasonable, or confirmed?

    I have seen the same on 1754 G J 8R and English VIGO coinage, so I assume it is a typical problem associated with die making transcending mint and nation, rather than "fancy" versus "plain" lettering.

    The scalloping you see at the base of some of the letters is a function of strike force and metal flow from the center outward toward the edges. Interestingly enough, Calbeto also cataloged these as a separate punch variety in his Compenidum. You can see it on top of the letters in the 1772 and 1773 dates where the assayer initials and mintmark were inverted to the rest of the legend, additionally supporting the metal flow assumption.

    An ingenious test case. Thanks for the expertise, TwoKopeiki.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Plus00Vltra said:

    @Plus00Vltra said:

    @Boosibri said:
    I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

    I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

    Bolivia is deceptively hard.

    I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

    Boosibri,
    Aside from your world-beater 1765 GP 8R in P64+ and 1764 GP 8R in P63, I am aware of a 1760 GP in N62, 1766 8R in P61, Two Ex Stuart 1768 GP 8R in N62 and N61, and a 1768 GP 8R in N64.

    Are there any other uncirculated Guatemalan 8R known to the hobby out there that you know of?

    I could just check the PCGS and NGC condition census but that would be no fun, plus I am really wondering about the raw coins squirreled away in old European collections...

    There is another 1764 in 63, and I used to own a 1760 Ferdinand in 61 and a 1758 in 63. The Lissner coin was a 1762 in 65 which was dark and likely over graded. Still, the only 65 for the type.

    Latin American Collection

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2024 8:00AM

    @TwoKopeiki said:

    @Plus00Vltra said:
    Question for the assembled experts here: the letter P appears three times on the obverse of this fantastic 1738 Mo MF 8R. The last P in PHILIP is different from the other two, with scalloping on the lower end. Same story with the I and D punches in PHILIP and D∙G vs. IND.
    Is this an artefact of the impression of the die punch into the die, or two different die punches for the letter "P?" I assume it is the former case, likely as scalloping of the die punch would allow for better excavation of die metal, making a stronger impression. Too light an impression of the die punch would produce the scalloping, heavy impression would leave a typical blocky letter. Letters "P" have the same shape otherwise, with a deformed lower loop, more so on the scalloped P.

    Is this reasonable, or confirmed?

    I have seen the same on 1754 G J 8R and English VIGO coinage, so I assume it is a typical problem associated with die making transcending mint and nation, rather than "fancy" versus "plain" lettering.

    The scalloping you see at the base of some of the letters is a function of strike force and metal flow from the center outward toward the edges. Interestingly enough, Calbeto also cataloged these as a separate punch variety in his Compenidum. You can see it on top of the letters in the 1772 and 1773 dates where the assayer initials and mintmark were inverted to the rest of the legend, additionally supporting the metal flow assumption.

    I’ve always wondered this also, but kinda just assumed it was a type of die failure due to fatigue or a flow issue. Makes sense.

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope to add a nice Carlos version in the next years.

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri Did you keep most of your 8 reales during the great Guatemalan sell-off of 2022-23?

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SimonW said:
    @Boosibri Did you keep most of your 8 reales during the great Guatemalan sell-off of 2022-23?

    I kept the 1764 and 1765. I was offered a price for the 1758 and 1760 which I couldnt refuse, thus breaking the set objective.

    Latin American Collection

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:

    @SimonW said:
    @Boosibri Did you keep most of your 8 reales during the great Guatemalan sell-off of 2022-23?

    I kept the 1764 and 1765. I was offered a price for the 1758 and 1760 which I couldnt refuse, thus breaking the set objective.

    Everything is for sale for the right price.

    Your Guatemala 8’s was the stuff of legend. I used to sit up nights drooling over them (not really, but you get the point😂)

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice!

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭


    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Plus00Vltra said:

    @Boosibri said:
    I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

    I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

    Bolivia is deceptively hard.

    I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

    Boosibri,
    Aside from your world-beater 1765 GP 8R in P64+ and 1764 GP 8R in P63, I am aware of a 1760 GP in N62, 1766 8R in P61, Two Ex Stuart 1768 GP 8R in N62 and N61, and a 1768 GP 8R in N64.

    Are there any other uncirculated Guatemalan 8R known to the hobby out there that you know of?

    Don't you mean "aside from your 'two worlds' beater"?! 😂 I'll show myself out now...

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • EuclidEuclid Posts: 108 ✭✭✭

    @dfrosty301 said:
    Compared to the amazing coins that have been posted here my small collection of pillars from shipwrecks is nothing much. Sorry about the lighting I don't really have a good setup to take photos of coins just yet.

    Sweet group! I love the cameo on the bottom two especially

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dfrosty301 those are great! Nice pillars from shipwrecks are tough in my experience

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just think that 8 Reales Pillars are so cool! Every collector should have one.

  • Crazy8sCrazy8s Posts: 73 ✭✭✭

    One of my pillars that happens to be encapsulated, I have a fondness for overdates.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crazy8s nice! great variety! Clear overdates are fantastic!

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I only own one though, at some point in the distant future, I would like to find a nicer one for an upgrade.
     

    Charles III Album

    Charles III Portrait Set

    Charles IV Album

    Charles IV Portrait Set

    Spanish Colonial Pillar Set

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh man @Eddi !

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My pillar dollar:

    image
    Spain Mexico City 8 Reales 1748 Assayer: MF
    Silver, 38.0 mm, 27.07 gm

    :)

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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2024 9:07AM

    The latest Stacks sale, it was too reasonably priced not to get it.


    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

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